Double Ogres strategy guide Written by: Strider Yoshi Table of Contents: 0. Legal Copyright 1. Introduction 2. Updates 3. Movelist 4. Strategy 4a. The FC mixup 4b. Waning Moon 4c. Okizeme 5. Credits Legal Copyright: Blah blah, copyrighted Strider Yoshi 2002. Don't rip me off, don't try to sell this for profit. Give credit where credit is due. I'm an lenient guy, so just ask, and don't be an ass. Introduction: It's strange what laziness will do for someone. I originally wrote the basic information about this FAQ two years ago. I left it as a forum post, and forgot about it mostly, except to post it every now and then whenever someone requested Ogre strats on the Gamefaqs TTT board. Skip two years ahead. Disappointed with T4, I continue playing TTT, and looking through the Ogre FAQ's currently on the Net, realize how horribly outdated they are now. Though they still had good basic info, these guides were written before the world knew of JOP, before Jang Suwon. Ogres have drastically changed in the time between then, and I think people should know how to play Ogres the real way now. =) So, here it is. Anyway, this is going to focus primarily on Team Ugly, aka. Double Ogres. How each move's effectiveness and frequency of use depends on whether you're playing the spacing-happy Ogre, or the Okizeme monster True Ogre. Updates: Version 1.0: Movelist, general strats done. Still have to input fancy formatting, frame data, juggles, and other sections. Oh yeah, and the conventions, and all that stuff. Conventions: Go to Tekken Zaibatsu. I use their conventions, meaning the 1,2,3,4 style. Movelist: 1,1>2 The classic Mishima move. 10 frame move, great interrupter. Delayable, but 1,1 doesn't have the frame advantage that Mishimas enjoy after a blocked 1,1. Very useful after 1,2,2 hits, but that will be discussed later. An interesting fact to note is that a blocked 1,1,2 does NOT guarantee a free hopkick from an opponent, unlike Mishimas. If you notice someone punishing blocked moves and whiffs with hopkicks a lot, try using this to bait a hopkick. Do not attempt baiting against Mishimas and Bruce, for obvious reasons. Ogre: Very good to use with Ogre. Lacks a bit of range, but if you have the frame window to input it, go for it. I actually don't use this a lot with Ogre, since I find that whenever I have the time to input this, I can usually go for a SS instead. Still very useful though. T.Ogre: One of fattie's key moves. Because of his negligible SS, you'll find yourself abusing his d+1, and 1. 1,2,2 is a more damaging move to throw out, because of the setups afterwards, but 1,1,2 is safer, and, IMO, the 1,1 seems to have more priority than 1,2. Also, a properly timed 1,1,2 can knock characters out of a lot of moves from a distance, including things like Lei's Razor Rush. 1,2,2 One of the best things about the Ogres. If blocked, it recovers at -8 frames, which technically guarantees a jab, though most people usually aren't sharp enough to retaliate. All hits are guaranteed on CH, and the last hit gives you a +1 frame advantage, and leaves you up close. 1,2,2 setups: 1,2,2, 1<1,2: If they twitch, this will land. I find this beats even beats 8-framers out, because you're just at maximum jab range after a CH 1,2,2 with T.Ogre, and even with Ogre. A possible substitute is another 1,2,2, but I find it easier to mash out 1,1 and look for the CH. =) Up to you, though. 1,2,2, Waning Moon: They start blocking, you do WM. 1,2,2, f+4: They learn again, and start ducking, you land f+4 on a crouched opponent. More on the divineness of f+4 later. Many more, of course. Once you learn Ogres in and out, every move you have can become a possible setup for damage. These are just some examples...=) 2,2 Your 10-frame whiff punisher. If 2 lands, the second 2 is guaranteed afterwards. Good damage. You can use this to punish blocked WGF's, but I'd be careful about using them. I've had the second 2 mysteriously whiff at times, and we all know what happens when you whiff against Mishimas. If blocked, you're screwed. Ogre: Why are you blocking moves with Ogre? You should be SS'ing and punishing! Anyway, good move, if you want the guaranteed damage. T.Ogre: Even better with T.Ogre. 2,2 whiffs more for me with T.Ogre though. With his range, it's worth the risk. u/f+1+2 Not too great. u/f+1+2 is amazingly good at punishing backrollers, and people tagging out. For example, after landing a Oki SS+4 ground hit, you can connect with this if they backroll. An Oki tool, and nothing more. Unfortunately, hitting a backroller with u/f+1+2 will send him flying far away, unlike (A.)King's version. Ogre: More useful for Ogre, than T.Ogre. With Horns, and longer arms, T.Ogre has a much easier time of punishing backrollers than Ogre does. Most of the time in a backroll situation, you can just chase and do ff,n+2 anyway. T.Ogre: You should be using horns, or chasing with ff,n+2, really. d/f+1,2 A very safe move if blocked, and some good setups afterwards. If d/f+1 hits, d+1 is guaranteed afterwards. Both d/f+1, and d/f+1,2 set up WM very well. Mix up with f+4, hopkick, etc, if they start ducking, and remember to mix up your throws. Ogre, T.Ogre Same. Longer arms with True Ogre, obviously d/f+2 Basic uppercut. On CH, it'll launch, and on normal hit, will stagger the opponent unless they escape. This move has some interesting mixups if they don't fall to the ground. ff,n+2 will land quite frequently after d/f+2. When they start getting smart, d/f+1+2 will interrupt their interrupter, unless the move is (E)WGF, of course. dash WM can also be a good substitute for ff,n+2, and tracks a bit as well. f,f+1+2 Hmm...I used to use this move a lot. Nowadays, I hardly use this at all. It's an easy free ground hit after FC,d/f+2, but you have better options. Although slow, it's fairly deceptive in it's startup, unlike the easily telegraphed SS+4, and ff,n+4. It's a useful move, just one I don't find myself using that often. Ogre: If you use this, you'll most likely be using this more for Ogre, as he lacks Horns. Surprising range. Use this after FC,d/f+2 for reliability, if you just want to end the matchup. T.Ogre: Better range, but you have Horns, so this is obsolete. f+1+4 Honestly, I don't use this move at all. Am I missing out? I'd appreciate some input here. I always find myself whiffing this, and eating retaliation, so I stopped using it. Does the beginning part duck under jabs? And why does it have such strange priority? I'd appreciate some answers to these questions. =) f+2 One of Ogre's best moves. You'll be throwing this out frequently. f+2 is very hard to SS, as it tracks both ways. Excellent range. Solid damage. Pushes away on block. Very few flaws. Either way, don't throw this out too recklessly. It's still very possible for a SS, backdash, SS, backdash Mishima to avoid this, and EWGF your ass. Only use when you know you're in range. f+2 is safe, but certain characters, like A.King, have the tools to punish a blocked f+2. Ogre, T.Ogre: f+2 is too good for both of them. f+2 with T.Ogre has godly range. f+2 with Ogre has amazing range as well. Nothing more to say. WS+2 I have mixed feelings about this move. It does give a nice stun on clean hit, or CH, but that stun is, of course, easily broken. It's fairly quick, but punishable if blocked up close. I find myself using this move a bit, as it tracks opponents SS'ing right. Part of Ogre's d+1 mixup game. If you ever land this on CH/clean hit, and they don't escape the stun, you've basically won the round. =) Ogre: Not that useful for Ogre, because of his limited range. You're probably much better off using Infinity Kicks as a ducked high hit retaliation, and after a blocked low. Unless you know the opponent's stupid, and won't break the stun, you can go for this, and follow ups. T.Ogre: VERY useful for T.Ogre. Using this at range is completely safe. iWS+2, at proper range, is really good for T.Ogre. I also use this in my hopback strategy. ^_^ FC,f+1 Hmm. I don't really use this move that much unless it's part of a setup, or a d+1 mixup. Anyway, this move is pretty safe on block, pushing the opponent away. A little slow on startup, so I wouldn't just throw it out of nowhere. I actually use this in mixup with FC,d/f+2, as a lot of people look for the forward movement of FC,d/f+2, and block accordingly. This can fake them out. =) Guaranteed followups afterwards. You can also use this to bait a FC+3,3,n+3...more later. Ogre, T.Ogre: As usual, punch attacks are better for T.Ogre, but the mixup is still the same. Used as a setup, or a mixup...not much more to say. FC,f+2 Purely an Oki tool or juggle ender. Terrible frame disadvantage on hit, or block makes this a move you don't want to throw out, ever. It stuns on CH, but if you ever get the stun, there's a lot better moves you could have been using. I suppose, theoretically, you can Supercharge and mix this up with FC,d/f+3,3,n+3... Ogre: Hmm, never use this. There's a lot better juggles you can be using for damage, and this move sucks for Ogre's oki. T.Ogre: Most damage for a ground hit for T.Ogre. Hits on ground. Even then, the slow recovery, even as you hit on ground doesn't leave you much to work with afterwards. I primarily use this as part of the d/f+1+2, d+1, FC,f+2 juggle. FC,d/f+2 A key part of Ogre's d+1 mixup game. Well, hits low, and gives you guaranteed juggles afterwards. However, it's slow, blockable on reaction, and has a disturbing tendency to whiff. Also can be SS'ed to the right. Just hope you'll guess right. Looking at the frame data, a d+1 on hit gives +7 frame advantage. FC,d/f+2 takes 20 frames to come out. The opponent still has a frame window to interrupt. 8-frame jabs will cream you if they anticipate. Again, the key is to mix things up. =) Setups: FC,d/f+2, WS+4, d/b+1+2, SS+4. (Night Special)- catches techrollers. FC,d/f+2, WS+4, d+4,4- Catches people who stay down. FC,d/f+2, WS+4, b+2+3- Catches techrollers. FC,d/f+2, d/f+1+2, d+1, f,f~d/f+1+2- Catches techers Ogre: Still useful, but I don't rely on d+1 as much with Ogre as much as I do with T.Ogre. This also can't be applied as a ground hit with Ogre. Damaging followups, but not as much as T.Ogre, again. T.Ogre's oki > Ogre's oki. =) T.Ogre: Very useful, even with it's disadvantages. Horns, d+1, FC,f+2 is guaranteed. Horns, d+1, ff,d/f+1+2 can catch techrollers and relaunch. Sometimes hits on ground, sometimes not. ^_^;; This move still manages to catch a lot of people off guard, even after all this time. $10 Canadian dollars says you'll be using this at least once a match with T.Ogre. =) This move is also your substitute to punish certain blocked low hits, like Law's d/b+4, since the usual followups tend to whiff. Also has a lot more possible setups with this move than with Infinity kicks. WS+3,3 etc. Easily one of Ogre's best moves, and my main reason why Ogres are so powerful. 10 frames, 60 damage guaranteed on regular hit. Anyway, the d+3 extension will whiff, depending on range, so stick to WS+3,3,d/f+3 for safety if you wish. Also can't be low parried. Also, the d+3 extension will whiff against certain characters, like Panda, for instance. This move is your standard ducked high or blocked low hit retaliation. Also a key part of d+1 mixups, as it can't be interrupted if the d+1 hits. iWS+3,3,d+3,3 is too good.... Ogre: You'll be using this move a lot. Sense a high, duck, get 60+ damage easily, depending on whether it's a CH or not. Very safe to just throw out if you stick to the d/f+3 variation. Like all moves, make sure it doesn't whiff. T.Ogre: Very good, even with T.Ogre's stubs that he calls legs. Use as much as you do with Ogre. FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 Ogre's best CH catcher. All three hits land if it's CH. If it's not, you're screwed, so try to make sure it lands. =) Also note that FC+3,3,n+3 is NOT guaranteed on CH, but FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 IS. Don't ask me why. Anyway, mixing up the enders really isn't much of a mixup, as you can block the second hit easily if the first hits, and you can tell just on reaction how to block the enders. Both also leave you at hefty frame disadvantage. This is Ogre's best juggle filler, btw. I suppose you could use this on an opponent rolling back, and land all 3 hits, but if they're stupid enough to roll back, you can just use, well, everything to hit them. Ogre, T.Ogre The purpose remains the same for both. Catch on CH. Although, since Ogre doesn't have horns, you'll be using this as a juggle filler for him. Setups for CH FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 Blocked FC,f+1, FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 Blocked or hit d/f+4, FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 Blocked f+2, FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 u+4 at distance, FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 Blocked f+4, FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 Be creative. Study the frame data. Many moves can be used to bait, as long as you set them up right. FC+3,3,d+3 Read the above comments. Moving on... u/b+3,2 No real reason why you should use this move. Weird setup from Shinjin+Night's list: ws+2, ub+3, uf,n+3, WM Catches tech-rollers...=) nothing guaranteed, of course. u/f+3,4,3 Slow startup. Tracks poorly, I think. Good damage if all hits, and you cut it short at the second hit, and go into Oki mixups, including a d/f+1+2 to relaunch. (Aussie special) Leaves you in good positioning even if all 3 hits connect. Also gives great frame advantage if blocked...you can annoy with f+4 combined with this for Guard stun traps...=) Setups: d/f+1+2, u/f+3,4, d/f+1+2 (Aussie special) Ogre: Good move, if you have the positioning. It's a situational move, really. If you're at a distance, and the opponent's just whiffed a move...*shrugs* T.Ogre: Not so great, unless part of a juggle, since T.Ogre's has the hit box, of roughly, Alaska, and can easily be jabbed out of it. f+4 Too good! First off, this gives you +11 frames on block, which means guaranteed d+1 for T.Ogre. The frame advantage allows you to set up so much stuff, it's not funny. f+2 is uninterruptible on block. A dash Waning Moon is also pretty much guaranteed. FC,d/f+3,3,n+3 will catch on CH often, and a ff,n+2 will hit if they just stay smart and block. Great on block. If it hits opponents on CH, it knocks them down to ground, Face down, head towards. ff,n+4 is a good followup afterwards, as well as your regular Oki mixups. If it hits crouched opponents, this is where the damage comes in. You have GUARANTEED f+2. Although hard to time, Infinity kicks is GUARANTEED after this hits. (Source: Chinese(?) Ogres combo vid). If you want, you can also go into ff,n+2, which, unless they SS, they can pretty much do nothing about. A dash WM could work, although you have to time it, since they're left crouching. There's so much you can do with this move... Ogre, T.Ogre You will use this move, hella a lot. Use it in a SS mixup. Use it in Oki games. Heck, use it on standing opponents if you can get the frame window. Too good. u/f+4 Your standard hopkick retaliation. Use it when you can. Your best guaranteed option after a low parry. Ogre, T.Ogre What's there to say? It's a hopkick. Setups: u/f+4, d/f+1, d/f+1, b+2+3 u/f+4, d/f+1, d/f+1, whiff d/f+1, WM u/f+4, d/f+1, d/f+1, ff+2 WM u/f+4, f+2, dash WM All for techrollers. f,f+3 Um, I don't use this move, since there's always better options available. Next. f,f+3+4 Another crap move. Next. f,f,n+3+4 A long range ground hit. Not to be used on standing opponents. Anyway, very good range, as it can hit tag-outs for that last hit if you need to. Also, will usually land after a u/f+1+2~d. Use it as the situation warrants. Ogre, T.Ogre: More useful for Ogre, since he lacks the range on f+2, and he's not fat. f,f+4 I love this move, and I'm not sure why. Longest range for any Ogre move. High priority. Very good Oki positioning on hit, and dubious juggles on hit as well. If blocked, leaves you up close, and at 0 frame advantage. Used to close the distance. The standard mixup on block: f,f+4, WM- if they just stand there. f,f+4, SSL, u+4- if they d+1, or low parry in anticipation of you d+1'ing. Will also dodge EWGF. f,f+4, 1,2,2- if they try to retaliate with anything slower than 10 frames. If this hits, watch for a techroll. You can SS in the direction they techroll, then mixup SS f+4, SS+4, etc. Anyway, the reasons I like the move are obvious. The thing is, it's slow, and hits high, and telegraphs quite badly. But I see Ogre players everywhere, including the likes of JOP and Jang Suwon, landing this left and right, and connecting! I throw it out often, too, and usually have it hit or block! If someone can explain why this move is so useful, I'd like to know...^_^;; Oh, this is great versus people tagging in. Unless they tag cancel and duck. Ogre, T.Ogre: Even with T.Ogre's size, it's still equally as useful to him. Use it to close the distance. This'll beat out most stuff that your opponent can throw at you, and does great damage, to boot. f,f,n+4- An underused Oki technique that should be in every Ogre player's arsenal. Does a solid 20 damage on hit, which is only 2 less than SS+4. It also tracks extremely well, hitting siderollers. Yet no one uses this move, and I'm not sure why...probably because SS+4 trips if they just stand up...Anyway, never use this anywhere else besides Oki situations, as it's extremely punishable on block. Ogre: Use it, in Oki. Nowhere else. Better with Ogre, obviously. Maybe his best ground hitting move. T.Ogre: Great, if you just want some free damage in Oki. Very reliable. Use this if you're not sure about whether horns will connect. d+4,4 d+4 by itself, as a low poke, sucks. Terrible frame disadvantage, even on hit. Stick to the universal d/b+4 if you want to cheese. Anyway, d+4,4 can be useful in a setup. Also useful in knocking people out of stances. If a WS+4 whiffs after a SS+4, the d+4,4 will trap them in OB position if they stand, do a rising kick, or what not. This move isn't something you want to use on a standing opponent. Ogre, T.Ogre: Same use for both, really. Juggle filler, knock people out of stances, etc. SS+4 Well, if you're only going to give Ogres one frigging new move from T3 , at least you gave him a good one. Screw you, Namco. Anyway, SS+4 is an excellent addition, and a key move in Ogre's oki mixups. Mix this up from a SS, with u+4/f+4, and you have a standard SS mixup. On hit, this will trip the opponent face up, head towards. A WS+4 followup is guaranteed, but whiffs depending on if you hit your opponent off-axis or not. If the WS+4 whiffs, a d+4,4 will hit the opponent in the back if they try anything. Ogre Very good for Ogre, as you'll be SS'ing a lot with him. His best ground hit, since he doesn't have horns. Also easier to connect WS+4 followups with Ogre. T.Ogre Not so great, since, unless the opponent is down, you won't be SS'ing that much with T.Ogre. Followups also harder. WS+4,4 WS+4 by itself is a great setup, and great juggle filler. WS+4 gives you decent frame advantage, so apply the standard baits and mixups. WS+4, WM can work at times. WS+4,4 itself isn't that great as a retaliation move, as you have Infinity kicks. Ogre, T.Ogre Setups, juggles. Same use applies. d,D/B+4 Another Oki tool. Fairly good range, pushes away on block. On non-Ch, sends the opponent rolling back, giving you a free tag dive. On CH, launches. I have to experiment with this move more...does it track? does it duck highs slightly? Oh, and use after WM. In an Oki situation, this will beat out rising kicks cold. It will also hit people who roll back, or tag out. Also, a whiffed d,d/b+4 on a downed opponent will cause the subsequent wakeup kick to whiff depending on the alignment on axis. A d,d/b+4~5 can also be useful after a d+1+2, as an Ogre tagging in has a few good options...like ff,n+2 if they stand up, or tag dive if they roll back or something. =) Ogre, T.Ogre Bah. Same use really. Standard advantage to Ogre because of length of leg, and disadvantage to T.Ogre because of stubbiness. On second thought, T.Ogre has horns, so you'll be using this move a bit more with Ogre. 4~3 Hmm....well, I really don't use this move that much, because of the awkward position it puts you in, but 25 damage for a move that's a little bit slow, but hits ground and backrollers isn't that bad. I should experiment with this more, but there usually are better options. Ogre only moves b+1+2 Hard to do, and low payoffs, even if you can connect with it. Ducking is usually the better option. Unless they do some kind of high jumping attack, as b+1+2 will stun them in the air, giving you some weird stuff...like a free b+2+3. T.Ogre only moves d/f+1+2 The only reason that T.Ogre is up there with Ogre in the top-tier group. This move is too good. Very damaging juggles and setups on launch. This move can also relaunch tech-rollers, and backrollers, depending on the positioning and timing. Safe on block. Hits grounded opponents. Awesome juggle filler. Tracks a bit. Ducks highs. Need I go on? If you don't use this move with T.Ogre, you should be. Setups off of d/f+1+2 d/f+1+2, u+3+4, d/f+1~2, ff~d/f+1+2 (Catches techers) d/f+1+2, u+3+4, 1~2, f~d/f+1+2 (Catches techers) d/f+1+2, U/F+4, d+1, ff~d/f+1+2 (Jang Suwon special) d/f+1+2, f,f+4, d/f+1+2 -Tricky. d/f+1+2, u/f+3,4, d/f+1+2 (Aussie special) d+3+4 A solid ground hit. Too slow for use on a standing opponent. Tied with Buffalo Horns for doing the most damage of any of T.Ogre's ground hits. This move is more reliable for hitting grounded opponents, as d/f+1+2 can whiff depending how far off-axis you are, but the recovery is better for d/f+1+2, as well as giving you a d+1, FC,f+2 or a relaunch depending on how they get up. Use d+3+4 for your juggle fillers mostly. u+3+4 An interesting move. This move can actually dodge d+1, but the timing is tricky. Seeing as how you really can't SSR to avoid d+1 after say, a blocked f,f+4, you might want to attempt this move. +3 on block, +1 on hit, but still fairly slow at 19 frames. d/f+3+4 Uh...unless you want to do Suwon T.Ogre dance, don't use it. FC, d/f- reverses punch moves performed with a d, or d/f motion. Well, interesting, to say the least. If they don't know how to escape it, (1), feel free to abuse it against other Ogre users. =) Otherwise, forget it. Unblockables! f,f+2 A very dangerous move, to both you and your opponent. Very damaging on hit, and if the user is slow and doesn't escape, on block as well. Landing this move gives you free followups afterwards. Depending on the oppponent, this can be either a very risky move, or a somewhat safe one. For example, Mishimas can backdash out, and dash EWGF you, but characters like Lei are limited to maybe a few hits off a RR... Ogre You really shouldn't be using this with Ogre. Too short of a range with Ogre, and too slow. T.Ogre Amazing range. Safe against some characters, if it's blocked from a distance. Damaging followups. This move is just something you throw out against someone rushing in, and hope for the best, really. This is also a very good option at stopping the wavedash. This move can be the turning point of a match, one way or the other. =) u/f+1+2~d Hits grounded opponents. Slow, and can be easily SS'ed, backdashed, whatever. Use in setups, otherwise, no. The only time I really use this move is after a SS+4, WS+4, d+4,4 juggle, to catch people standing up or staying down. Ogre, T.Ogre At least Ogre isn't as easily jabbed out of...still pretty easy though. I'm not quite sure if this hits grounded with Ogre...I think it does though. Anyway, use in setups. Maybe you can use this to dodge shoulder rams? *shrugs* u/f,n,1+2~d Next. d/b+1+2 Ogre's best unblockable to catch techers, if you can land it. A few frames slower than b+2+3, but you have guaranteed hits afterwards, so it's more damaging. Doesn't hit backrollers as well though. Use it if you think the opponent will techroll, or stand up. If you miss, you're getting launched. Ogre b+2+3 is probably the better option, as Ogre's version doesn't hit backrollers. T.Ogre Take the risk if you want. With T.Ogre's longer arms, it's much easier to hit backrollers with this move. b,b+1+2 Ogre's slowest, and most damaging move. Anyway, this will land if d+1+2 connects on the second sweep, just as T.Ogre is about to recover out of the flames. Will also connect if they techroll off of d/f+1+2. This move actually has pretty surprising range, and tracks extremely well. Very, very, risky, but the payoffs are huge, as you have guaranteed ground hits if it connects. I almost never use it, but it might be something to experiment with. I've managed to connect this by backdashing a rising kick, then performing this...they still have time to interrupt though, I think. Throw this out if time is running out...the tracking and range is surprising. =) Ogre Don't use it. T.Ogre Has the range of f+2. Maybe against tag-in's, if you can anticipate the tag-out, and perform the move before they tag-out....=) b+2 A very good move. Better range, and better tracking than ff,n+2, but a bit slower. It also telegraphs a little bit less. I primarily use this to punish whiffed moves, like whiffed rising kicks, hopkicks, etc. Also useful in wake-up games. SS+4 is a good option after this move, as it's pretty much guaranteed, and you have the option to mix up f+4, and unblockables, if they try to rise and block. Setups: b+2, d/b+4, d/f+1+2 b+2, d/b+4, dash WM Ogre, T.Ogre The use is pretty much the same. Try to land if you think your opponent will freeze up. Oh, use in Oki game. ff,n+2 The quicker version of b+2. Does a bit more damage, can have greater range if you buffer with ff, and can be delayed a lot after an ff motion. This move is a key to Ogre's Oki. You can use this to catch techrollers, backrollers, people standing up...once you get into the Oki games, this will be a key move. Also useful off a d+1 for a mixup, but it can easily be SS'ed if they anticipate. Again, SS+4 is a good option. This is also surprisingly useful off a tag-in, as you can buffer the motion in while Ogre is running. Setups: ff,n+2, d/b+4, d/f+1+2 ff,n+2, d/b+4, dash WM b+2+3 One of Ogre's best unblockables. This will catch backrollers, and techers really easily. Solid 60 damage, great range, and tracks both ways. Use this in wakeup games, even as a whiff punisher if your opponent usually tries to escape with backdashing or SS. Ogre, T.Ogre The range, IMO, just seems better with Ogre, but it's still a useful move with both. SS+4, WS+4, b+2+3 is old-school Jang Suwon...=) T.Ogre only unblockables! 1+2 Pretty much useless. Unless you want to hit T.Ogre, Kuma, or the Jacks, as it's fairly difficult to SS the flame with them. BTW, if some T .Ogre scrub is doing this against you, you can either try SS, which is very difficult, or you can just jump directly into the flame, which just knocks you down, without the stun. d+1+2 A very good move to hit people tagging in, as you can get some massive setups off this. It's possible to tag cancel, and duck under the flames though. If they do that, switch up with Horns, or something. Setups: d+1+2, d,d/b+4~5, ff,n+2- hits people standing up d+1+2, d,d/b+4~5, ff,n+1+2- hits people who stay down, tag out, or roll back. d+1+2, ff+4, SS+4_f+4- Your standard mixup. 3+4 (FU/FT, FU/FA) Eh...use it if they try some slow recovering move to hit you, like Bryan's B+1+4, or Jin/Kaz's b+1+4. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the back throw animation. You can also hold ~f, ~u, ~d to teleport from the back, and side, respectively. Dunno about the advantages. Juggle escape- Hit any button while in the air. A risky manuever. For example, you can escape the usual Laser Scrapper juggle with a juggle escape, but if they anticipate, you can eat a lot more damage...like having 3XEWGF turn into an easy 4XEWGF. =( Use at your discretion. Strategy The FC mixup FC mixups Somewhat ok, more for intermediates if anything. Basically, it involves you getting Ogre into a FC position, and mixing up moves from there. The basic way to get into FC is d+1. You can also use u+3+4~d to get into FC, but this is slow. As well, after d/f+1 connects, d+1 is guaranteed afterwards. Now for the options: FC,f+2- Worthless in a guessing game. I only get this by accident when I'm going for a low backhand sweep. FC,d/f+2- Your low move. Does good damage when you juggle with it. Guaranteed followups include ff+1+2, FC+3,3,n+3, and with T.Ogre, you can get d/f+1+2, d+1, FC,f+2. Massive Oki setups off this move...tracks opponents SS'ing left. FC,f+1- Slow, but fairly safe when blocked, as it pushes them back. Can be used as a fakeout for FC,d/f+2. Juggle with FC+3,3,n+3 afterwards, or go for a ground hit. FC+1- A safe way to interrupt...well, people who try to interrupt. FC+4- Cheese. *shrugs* WS+1- Your safest move. Buffers into WM pretty well. Ws+2- Kaz's gut punch. Incredible range. Will stun on CH, but good players will get out of the stun. If not, go for 4 , hopkick, or WM (breakable). If you land this, with WM followup, round is yours. Tracks opponent SS'ing right. Punishable on block. WS+3,3 etc.- Infinity kicks. If first hits, next 3 are guaranteed. It is uninterruptible if d+1 hits. Does very good damage. ff,n+2- Evil. Sometimes, people will just try to block on reaction. This will slam them back down, where you go for a followup. T.Ogre can land d+3+4, but best followup is probably d/b+4, FC+3,3, into Oki guessing. As well, after d/b+4, if you do d/f+1+2 with T.Ogre ASAP, the horns will launch techrollers. However, they can stand up straight immediately afterwards, they can block the horns. Dash buffered WM- Basically, do FC,d/f,f~f,d/f+2+4. You'll dash forward out of crouch, and Waning Moon. Again another guard breaker, but fairly difficult in execution. High damaging pay-offs. 1+3_2+4. You can buffer these off a d+1 by holding down either 1, or 2, than hitting 3_4. You'll get an instant throw out of FC..=.) Back off- Obvious, no? Just simply dash back. A lot of times, people will try to retaliate immediately after your d+1, to stop the guessing game. Go for buffalo horns afterwards, rush in with an unblockable, etc. The opponent, in general, has 3 choices, if d+1 connects: Interrupt with quick jabs: This will kill everything except FC+1, FC+4, and Infinity kicks. Movement: A well-timed SS or backdash will make a lot of Ogre stuff whiff. Infinity kicks will still hit though. Mix up your tracking moves...otherwise, there's really not much you can do, as a properly timed SS will dodge tons of stuff. Block: This will leave them safe from infinity kicks, but allows you the guessing game. d+1 mixups are good, as long as you can mix them up properly, but it becomes very dangerous when up against certain characters. Waning Moon IMO, the best throw in the game. Alright, first off, this move is SO bufferable, it's insane. A dash-buffered WM can be performed like so: Method #1 ff, QCF, f, QCF, f, QCF,etc.- Just input 2+4 anytime if you do this quickly, and you'll perform WM. =) Method #2 d/f,f,f,d/f+2+4- A little bit easier. Off of FC: FC, d/f, f, f, d/f+2+4 As well, the motion itself is pretty sloppy. You can input... d/f, RUN for a few steps, d/f+2+4- WM comes out. d/f, b,b, d/f+2+4 d/f, SS, d/f+2+4 U,n,d/f,d/f+2+4 You can buffer off crouch, SS, backdash, jump...very versatile. WM setups: d/f+1, WM d/f+1,2, WM whiffed u+4, WM blocked ff+4, WM d+1, WM 1,1, WM (Have to be close, otherwise, use dash version) 2, WM FC,f+1, WM WS+1, WM The list goes on and on...again, creativity is what's needed. Try not to use it too obviously. The followups to this move are lengthy. WM, f,f+4, d+4,4- Combo, as shown as in one of Castel's Combo vids WM, u/f+3,4,3- Easy, solid damage. I think you can get a tech-trap by stopping at the second kick, and going for horns. You get very good Oki positioning anyway even with all 3 hits. WM, f+2- Your scrub followup. So easy. WM, d/f+1+2- Launches them up. Escapable, but the damage is ok, and it's a nice mixup between backthrow I suppose. WM, backthrow- The range on the backthrow is deceptive. I've heard rumors this is guaranteed, if properly timed. WM, d,d/b+4, tag dive- Crazy, crazy, damage, and all guaranteed. WM, d,d/b+4, dash up, d/f+1+2- Launches if they roll back, etc. Okizeme I hope you didn't just skip to this section. (T.)Ogre's okizeme is easily the best in the game. Before I go on, the basic SS mixup game: The SS mixup If they stay down- ss+4 If they roll to the side, ss, ff,n+4 If they roll back, ss,f+2 or ss,u/f+1+2 If they get up standing-ss+4, repeat process If they get up crouching-ss+f+4, into almost guaranteed unblockable, or ss+u+4 for a nice juggle. Their options, and your response: If they stay down- Various options here. d/f+1+2, ff,n+4, SS+4, are probably your best ground hitters. ff,n+4 is more reliable, but d/f+1+2 and SS+4 are more versatile. Even u/f+1+2~D can work, depending on the distance, though this move is usually used in a setup. If they roll to the side- ff,n+4 tracks fairly well. A well-timed SS will also allow you to connect with SS+4. Otherwise, you can just wait for them to finish the side roll, and go on with your usual Oki mixups If they stand straight up- Various options here. Your standard SS mixup of SS+4, and f+4 will work, if you want to guess if they stand crouching or blocking. Dash WM will connect if they don't crouch. ff,n+2 and b+2 is a very good option, but make sure to time it correctly. Too early, and you'll telegraph, they'll stay down, and it'll whiff. Too late, and they have enough time to SSR. If they roll back- Kinda stupid to roll back against Ogres. You can land Horns, f+2, ff,n+2, dash b+2, dash WM, dash hopkick...like pretty much everything. If they roll forward- Um, I'm not even going to go into this. Land anything. If they tech- Teching against Ogres is only slightly less stupid than back rolling. Your options: ff,n+2/b+2- This will whiff if you just do it normally, but there's several tricks you can use to realign yourself. f~b, f,f,SS, b~f, delay the ff,n motion, etc. Personally, I usually use the ff,SS motion, as I can buffer in the ff,n+4, or ff,n+2 quickly, as well as having access to SS+4. b+2+3- If their techroll is really late, you can land this sometimes. This usually only works after certain setups. Stuff like 1,2, b+2+3 will give them enough time to techroll and tag out. d/f+1+2- Again, depending on the positioning, you can get this to catch techrollers. Your best option, if you can get it to connect. SS mixups- Landing SS+f+4 is one of your most damaging options. dash WM- Again, a highly damaging option. They can duck it, break, etc. f,f+2- This tracks both ways, but the timing to have it connect is tricky. Not that reliable for me, so I don't use it, but I've heard others do fairly well. If they getup with wakeup kicks Hopover: You have to do this fairly early. Afterwards, go for d+1, into either ws+2 for reliability, or FC+3,3,n+3 for damage. dash back: Will dodge both wakeup kicks. Afterwards, you can follow up with horns to launch, ff,n+2, etc. SSR/SSL: Kinda tricky, as you can only dodge each kick a certain way. I'd rather dash back myself. WM: This will interrupt wakeup kicks. d,d/b+4: If done early enough, this will also beat up wakeup kicks. If they perform an ankle kick: Same options as wakeup kicks. Even if they hit, I think they're left at frame disadvantage. Not much to worry about, in any case. If they start to perform a cross-chop dive: Since they have to roll back or forwards to start this, there's really not much to worry about. If they perform an Tech-Handspring Same options as standing up. This will hit you if you're dashing, but if you let them whiff, you can easily land horns, etc. If they perform a b+3~4 This is a high risk manuever for the opponent, but has the greatest payoffs, as it really interrupts Ogre's flow. b+3~4 has good priority, so it'll hit you as you dash up and stuff. f+2 will interrupt this before it starts. Otherwise, just block it and retaliate if you can anticipate. Credits: King of Havoc: My main training partner, or was. :p Avex Honda NSX, Mini King, Capercat, Second to None, Asian_Caucasian, etc.: The T_T crew. Plenty of credit for making me into the player I am today. Anson, Chinky-Eye: Like the only other Ogre users in Ontario. Has also provided me with good stuff. ^_^ Jang Suwon, JOP, Shinjin: My Ogre heroes. I've ripped more stuff off of them then I can imagine. Special credit goes to Shinjin, who posted some amazing stuff in the old TC Ogre thread, and, along with Night and Ikazushi, providing most of my setups. =) Night: Gave me the list of Ogre setups, providing tons of knowledge. Safer: Gave me dash-buffered WM. Need I say more. ^_^ Chris, Ikazushi, all the other's I've stolen Ogre strats from: Thanks a bunch. =) Karacha: I used his guide to check the facts of my work, as well as using it to refer to frame data and stuff. Castel, Catlord: Castel for running TZ, Catlord for his awesome movelist and combo compendiums. The GameFaq's crew, Tribal, subt L, INH, Scabble, etc.: Thanks for making the GF message boards an interesting place to hang out. You can contact me at: Strider_Yoshi@tekken.cc. You can also catch me hanging around the GFAQ's and TZ message boards. Cheers!