******************************** * OGRE - FEEL THE POWER v1.4 * ******************************** written by Ikazushi (ikazushi@rocketmail.com) Make sure this is lined up and all otherwise it looks and prints crap: 1234567890 ........... **************** * Disclaimer * **************** This FAQ is "intellectual property" of Ikazushi. It is for personal use only. If distributed publically and/or put on a website, credit must be given to me, and the FAQ must remain intact and in its present form. I must be notified if this FAQ or any part of this FAQ is put on a website. Do not steal, rip-off, or take stuff or anything from this FAQ. This FAQ or any content of it may not be used for profit without permission from me. Tekken Tag Tournament and all things related officially belong to Namco and all that legal stuff. ********************* * Version History * ********************* Version Date (Aus) Comments v1.4 11/12/2000 FFS after all this time I SOMEHOW managed to leave out the f,f,N mixup that I talk oh-so-much about. Anyway, I've added it now and HOPEFULLY this will be the final revision. v1.3 07/12/2000 Edited stuff all over. Revamped strategic points all over and stuff. This will probably be my final revision of this FAQ as I don't play Ogre too much anymore, as he ain't as good as others and all, but still fun to play now and then, but I just had to make my FAQ at least half decent (I can't believe half the shit I wrote before =P). v1.2 13/07/2000 Tag Juggles & Combos section added. Minor changes. Strategy stuff added to sections all over. Cheesy Stuff added in Redeeming Ogre. A new combos added (some I made up!). Added how to do FC moves quicker (in the analysis of the moves, respectively). Added a few combos from Castel's Ogre and True Ogre (one's possible for Ogre) Combo Acts (both solo and tag). Heavily revised Move Analysis section. v1.1 02/06/2000 Formatted to fit in browsers. Minor changes all over. v1.0 28/05/2000 First Released. No millenium bug with date :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ************** * Contents * ************** 1) Introduction 2) Conventions 3) Move Analysis 4) Custom Strings 5) Juggles & Combos 6) Tag Juggles & Combos 7) Waning Moon 8) Okizeme 9) Tag Stuff 10) Playing Strategy 11) Tech-Baiting (WTF?) 12) Redeeming Ogre (WTF AGAIN?) 13) Conclusion 14) Credits ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************* * 1) INTRODUCTION * ********************* Yeah, uhhh, been some time since I first made this FAQ and a lot of what I said dun really apply no more and shit (because I'm not some scrubby little bastard... now I'm a real tekken player that sucks... ehehhee). Anyway, time to get on with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ******************** * 2) CONVENTIONS * ******************** I hope you already know the conventions, as I ain't gonna put them here. Besides, if I did I'd just rip it off another person's FAQ, and that's not nice... :P ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************** * 3) MOVE ANALYSIS * ********************** Yeah, ummm, don't go by the rating alone, like something with a 10, it may be very good and all, but doesn't mean you throw it out whenever, ok? It's rated 10 for its overall usefulness as a move, and shit. In fact, the ratings shouldn't really have any impact on how much you use the move. I'll just say what I think about the moves and you use your discretion of how you wanna use it. Though I'm leaving the ratings there just for the sake of having them. -Throws- 1+3 Rating: 8 Taggable, good throw. However, the escape is 1 and the general belief is that throws with a 1 escape are easily escaped (prolly due to index finger on it). Still a pretty decent throw anywayz. d+3 after usually hits, for a puncy little extra damage. 2+4 Rating: 8 Annoying throw, guaranteed to piss off the opponent if done too much. Use this to waste time and shit, or give you some breathing space. After it a d+3 is pretty much guaranteed (whoop de doo...). Left Side Throw (1+3_2+4_2+5) Rating: 8 Good damage, but that's because its a side throw. Maybe you should consider going for a juggle if the opponent escapes the side throws too much, but sidethrows are easy and damaging enough, and most of the time when you get this opportunity you have sidestepped their attack and they won't react to try and break the throw, not to mention Ogre's juggles aren't top notch, and they might screw up from the side as well. Of course, there is a standing 4... use your discretion. Right Side Throw (1+3_2+4_2+5) Rating: 8 Good damage and harder to escape than left (but you can't really chose to do the other side unless you sidestepped that way) in the accepted Tekken theory of throw escapes. Looks cool as well. The fact that for many people their right side throws are a tad weaker leads me to think that Namco did this on purpose as they thought throws that require 1 are easier to escape, so they gave them more damage (though not necessarily for front throws, as 2+4 does more damage than 1+3, but at least 1+3 is taggable). I dunno, whatever... Back Throw (1+3_2+4_2+5) Rating: 9 Whenever you get behind your opponent (which isn't often, but happens a lot more with Ogre than other characters cos of his sidestep), go for the backthrow for some awesome damage. Just as long as you're pretty sure they won't be able to escape (as in avoid the throw, hit you, something like that). This will often kill or come close to killing your opponent (70 damage!!!). df,DF+2+4 Rating: 10 Although this is bloody awesome, do not get carried away and use it while just standing there as it takes time to initiate. Try to set it up. Opportunities for pully a Waning Moon off are listed in the Waning Moon section. I reckon the best time to use it is after a clean hit WS+2. Only problem(s) is the WS+2 is slow and all, and stun can be escaped relatively easily, and the throw is easily anticipated. If your opponent escapes the stun consistently (usually when you are vsing pretty decent competition), you should try setting it up other ways, like mixing in with jabs and stuff. -Arts- d+1 Rating: 10 Ogre's fastest standing move (that is, moves he can perform standing, not necessarily ending up standing) I think, and also is probably the best way to set up his FC game. This can be used very well to interrupt and you will probably hit with this a lot against scrubs. Just make sure you're in range... BTW, don't use this by itself as it'll become very obvious what your doing. Also, the infinity kicks cannot be interrupted after connecting this. Mix up infinity kicks and FC,df+2 after a connected d+1. If blocked, if you opponent is smart they'll know to poke you out of any further attacks. 1,1 Rating: 10 Good to keep the pressure on an opponent and can be used in a lot in custom strings. Make sure you never do a single 1, as the recovery is slower than doing a 1,1. And although not the best, it can be used to interrupt. Only thing is that the second hit (and thus the third) will only hit if the first was CH now I think. 1,2 Rating: 10 Essentially the same above. What's better about using this is that it does 7 points more damage than 1,1, and also it has 1 more frame of advantage (...), what's better about using 1,1 is that you can chain it to 1,1>2 if you get CH, but that's IF you get CH. It's up to you and what you plan to do. If you are custom stringing, then 1,2 is better (more damage, more frame advantage), if not, maybe 1,1 (you can still go for a 1,2 if you aren't custom stringing). 1,1>2 Rating: 9 Enough damage to sufficiently punish someone when you interrupt them. Also, since the last hit can be delayed, as long as you don't get carried away (like me sometimes *sigh*) you won't be screwed when they block the 2, cos you can stop if they block the 1,1. As mentioned above, the 2 ain't guaranteed unless on CH. 1,2,2 Rating: 5 Good damage, and if you hit with it, you can usually follow up with a 1,1,2 and hit (depending on what the opponent does, if they do a 8 frame jab, you'll get hit). However, all hit high and if they crouch under you will be left open, the recovery time isn't that good, and you can't delay the last hit, making it all or nothing (well, 1,2 anyway). The recovery isn't good though. Overall, this is as useful as the Mishima's 1,2,2!!! Which is not to say very much... 2,2 Rating: 6 This is rated that little bit higher than 1,2,2 due to its inescapability (what a big word) ie. if the first hits, the second will, while with the 1,2,2 I think the third hit ain't always guaranteed and can be ducked anyway, but with this the opponent might not react in time, and if the first *10 frame* jab hits, so does the second, for some nice damage. Use this now and then if you are VERY SURE that you'll interrupt. However, don't overuse because they ducked under it, you'll eat a WS attack. df+1 Rating: 10 Even though this is 10, you shouldn't get carried away. If you do this too much, you'll often get interrupted with quick jabs (Mishima's 1,1,2...). This should be used often, as it can set up some other stuff, like a d+1 guaranteed if you hit, just don't do it over and over. Also, this is uncounterable (reversals and parriess), hits mid, recovers quick so is relatively safe apart from quick jabs. If you are blocked, you will be safe and have enough time to block attacks they try. Generally only use when making a move to attack. Even on minor counter there isn't much point cos it takes 14 frames, and I'm pretty sure a hopkick takes 14 frames as well. df+1,2 Rating: 7 This isn't really much use, but you can use now and then to throw the opponent off if he's happy on coming on right after a blocked df+1, but prolly won't work anyhows. Other than that, there isn't much point as the 2 can still be blocked even if the df+1 hit. On the plus, the 2 is irreversable and if blocked, you'll be at a -6 frame advantage, so nothing guaranteed against you (though a throw would be annoying to avoid). Maybe you could use it to waste that *little* bit of time and keep the pressure on the opponent. Overall, it's not that bad a move, but the df+1 is a better option (if only it was like Bruce's... and if only Ogre had triple knees...). df+2 Rating: 7 This is a pretty good move as its mid, causes a stagger when it hits (or lift stun on big characters) giving you the initiative over your opponent and forcing them back, and juggles on counter hit. Mix this in with custom strings and pokes and stuff to make it more effective. IMO, you should avoid using this by itself because it isn't that fast. Decent, but not to be overused. 4 Rating: 7 This is a powerful move for just a standard one (however, weaker, slower and less range [?] since T3). The key to using this effectively is using it at the right time. If you get predictable, it will get ducked under it and you'll get punished. Use mostly on minor counter of if you anticipate the opponent rushing in (as well as attacks that move in eg. Deathfist). After sidestepping an attack, this is a decent option (it all comes down to the actual situation). d+4 Rating: 8 Good range, comes out quick, hits low... a very good poke. Mix this around while poking to keep them guessing. Can also be used in okizeme if you wanna play safe, cos if you miss, it isn't as bad as missing with d+4,4 (either way it's not good to whiff). Might as well go for a d+3 if you're playing safe, as it will hit grounded opponents and I'm pretty sure it'll do more damage). This is -11 disadvantage when blocked, and -12 on hit (WTF?), and on CH is 0. So even on a hit, don't overextend yourself because you're likely to get hurt. d+4,4 Rating: 6 Only use against opponents you are sure won't duck under, and even then, don't do it too much as they will catch on. Just mix it up, but do a single d+4 a lot more than you do the full d+4,4. The main use for d+4,4 is in okizeme and juggles, other than that, it shouldn't be overused, or even used cept when you've never used it and the opponent won't react to duck. Hmmmm, this move is barely any better than Hwoarang's d+4,4, and his at least juggles... :P df+4 Rating: 9 Quite fast and good range, this is another good poking tool. It can also be mixed up in custom strings. Use this to keep your opponent at a distance or while you are at a distance (not too far though). This recovers quick and so this move is pretty safe overall. uf+4 Rating: 8 Probably Ogre's most reliable juggle starter. This has good priority, range, speed, but its recover is not too good if blocked. This is probably best used on minor counter to set up some good damage from juggles when you have little fear of them blocking. You could possible use this to interrupt moves, but you'll have to anticipate, but it still is pretty quick (14 frames?). f+4 Rating: 5 They only time I use this move is by accident... This is slow to come out, and you'll most likely either get interrupted or they'll just block. However, if your opponent does like to block a lot, this will give you a frame advantage (11) over them, and you should be able to safely follow up with quick attacks such as jabs, d+4,[4], and most likely even a throw (prolly need to move in). WS+4,4 Rating: 8 This is a pretty quick move off the crouch, and recovers quicker than the WS+3,3 by a little, but I prefer the WS+3,3 over this as that can lead to infinite kicks which will knock them away anyway, so the faster recovery doesn't really matter. But that doesn't make this any worse, it's just that the WS+3,3 has more options (and scrubs get wasted by infinite kicks). BTW, this does that little more damage (4 points) than WS+3,3 (unless you do the d+3,3 which is guaranteed anyway...). However, in juggles when only the 2 first kicks will hit (therefore the for WS+3,3 any continuation will miss), this is better due to the higher damage (however, I did figure out a few juggles on big guys where the first 4 infinity kicks will hit... :P). f,f+3 Rating: 5 This move is very slow and very easy to see coming. I really never use this, it's just too easy to interrupt, block, avoid, whatever (even get thrown during the windup). At least you can combo (pretty pathetically) off it. WS+3,3 Rating: 9 Slightly faster to do than the WS+4,4, I prefer this one. This will inflict a fair amount of damage if they connect, a little less than WS+4,4, but the first two infinite kicks are guaranteed, and they will more than make up for the damage. The only reason why I rate this higher is because of the infinite kicks after (the slight slower recovery is cancelled out by the slight faster start up - I think they get knocked back far enough so that you should be relatively safe anyway). If you reckon they will block in time and you need some space the WS+4,4 is probably a better option, however, as it recovers quicker. WS+3,3,d+3(U~_D~_N~)3,3... Rating: 8.5 This is pretty powerful (especially if you go on for infinite against scrubs...) and the first four hits are guaranteed once the first connects. If you block something low (or duck something high), this is a good retaliation move, though there are others (again depends on the situation). I wouldn't go past the first four kicks (ie. WS+3,3,d+3,3) unless the opponent was a stupid ass scrub :). BTW, it's prolly safer to do WS+3,3,df+3 as it does nearly as much damage, still guaranteed, and it can't be lowparried. Of course, if you react well you could do d+3,3 when the first two kicks hit, or df+3 when they don't. FC+3,3,d+3 Rating: 7 I used to love the snake kick variations, but they aren't so good out of combos now (and also now that I use True Ogre, there are much better things to do). Not to mention since I first wrote this FAQ, I myself have been able to tell the difference between the enders on reaction, and I ain't some top shit player myself... soooo.... If you hit, you are at disadvantage so don't really try anything unless you are vsing a scrub. If blocked you are as good as dead. BTW, tis can be done that little bit quicker by going DF+3... (have to delay the 3 that little bit so you don't do a df+3) or d~DF+3... (also d~DB+3... as well. You could consider this stuff as an instant FC, hehe) to skip the sidestep check when down is pressed. You'll get what I'm talking about once you have a couple of tries or know how an instant WS works. FC+3,3,N+3[~5] Rating: 7.5 Same as above really. This version does A LOT of damage if it all hits, and can lead up to some rather damaging juggles. You can also tag out of this to get Ogre tagged out safely. If blocked, you will be at -17 frames andthey will be knocked back a little. Pretty dangerous really, and I think EWGF will hit... This is pretty much best used in juggles. This can also use the same technique explained above to make it go quicker. f,f+4 Rating: 5 This is ok, and if it's blocked it'll cause a block stagger in which case you can play a guessing game of sorts (d+1 is the safest option though I think, and sets up for your FC guessing game - hoorah) as the recovery is equal. However, against smarter opponents, this is VERY risky, cos it can be sidestepped, ducked, and hit during the start up, so don't use it unless you're sure they aren't expecting it (or will crouch, sidestep and stuff, which good players will do (sidestep) when they see you coming in, so even when they don't expect it you'll prolly miss :( ). They only time that it would be relatively safe to use in a high level of competition is to attack a tagging in opponent, but only if this is probably the only thing with enough range to hit. In any case, whenver you use this, use at a MODERATE range only, don't overestimate it, cos even though Ogre travels far, only the middle part is *active* ie. hits. After that he's still slowing down and open to all sorts of attack :( f,f,N+4 Rating: 9 This is a bastard of a move. Against standing opponents I wouldn't use, but it isn't that bad (sorta fakes 'em out with the neutral part and all), but if you get blocked, you'll be at -18 frames. How safe you are depends on how far away you were when you connected though (if you hit with full reach, you should be safe from retaliation). Against grounded opponents this kicks some major ass, being probably his best okizeme attack, as it hits opponents doing a variety of things to get up, has relatively good recovery (when you hit a grounded/getting up opponent) and its range can be rather long (and short if you're quick), due to the f,f,N, which also makes it able to be mixed up with other moves. Use liberally against backrolling scrubs, they will get wasted in no time. WS+2 Rating: 6.5 Awesome move. No wait, WAS an awesome move. On clean hit, you can go for uf+4 for a juggle, a Waning Moon, or just hit 4 for some bloody high damage (though not as high as a juggle or Waning Moon and followups, but still bloody high). If blocked, I think you are more or less screwed. This is ok off an instant WS though it's still pretty slow. BTW, this is irreversable with the exception of Jin and Jun (Why, you ask? The move's from Kazuya, think about it). Problems are that the stun can be escaped (by holding foward or tagging) and that, as mentioned various other times, it's been toned down a lot since T3. However, if you use it at the right time (in which case you might catch you opponent off guard and maybe he won't escape) this can do a LOT of damage. High damage potential (potential that is, ever getting the damage potential to the fullest is another question), but also VERY high risk factor. FC,f+1 Rating: 6.5 This isn't that good, but if you hit, they crumple (unlike how FC,f+2 needs a counter hit, and if not they get to whoop your ass), and if you are blocked, they get knocked away anyway. Anyway, this and WS+2 (hit mid) can be mixed up around with FC+3,3 whatever and FC,df+2 (they hit low), you can use the FC,f+2 for a mid hit mixup, but you recover slower than they do, EVEN WHEN YOU HIT! (unless on counter, but if they try to anitcipate a low and try to block, you won't get a counter, so that's why this is alright to use now and then, though WS+2 is prolly better if you wanted to substitute the FC,f+2, but then again FC,f+1 is sort of delayed, causes a sort of fake out. Even then, WS+2 ain't that good, so infinity kicks, tsunami kicks [WS+4,4] or uf+4 hopkick). Using a trick in Cosmic Forge's Yoshi FAQ, I've adapted it to make this move go faster. Just go DF~f+1 and this will come out a lot quicker than usual. Also d~DF,f+1 works. Same thing I mentioned for snake kicks. FC,f+2 Rating: 7 I prefer not to use too much cos of the totally pov recovery even on a hit. However, if it'll kill them (it does a fair bit of damage so this might happen often), it won't matter will it? Or if you are FC and they start to come in with a move or something, you should be able to get a counter (it's priority is quite good). I *think* this is irreversable (last time I check on Zaibatsu - which was ages ago), so not sure. This can also use the trick mentioned above. FC,df+2 Rating: 8 Hits low, comes out *pretty* fast (actually, it takes 20 frames, 1/3 of a sec, which isn't too fast, but most people don't see it coming quick enough to block low. In any case, for the overall damage you can get [guaranteed f,f+1+2. But that's been toned down a lot now. FC+3,3,N+3 is pretty good, I think might do more damage and it's taggable. True Ogre has WAAAAYYY better followups anyway :D] it's a pretty fast move considering). The guaranteed f,f+1+2 makes taking the risk of its poor recovery worthwhile, well, not really, but True Ogre's followups makes it definately worthwile! If you DO get blocked, hope that they will sit there blocking... best bet is to prolly hold back and stand guard (in case they went for a WS launcher and were EXTREMELY slow to get it off) and kiss your ass goodbye. This can be done quicker using the original trick Cosmic Forge had in his Yoshi FAQ. Just go DF+2 (or maybe DF,2). The trick is to hold it for that little bit till Ogre starts crouch walking foward, or if you time it you'll barely see him crouch walk. Again you could do d~DF+2 or however it should be notated, just figure out the timing yourself :P. d,db+4(CH)[~5] Rating: 7.5 This is a pretty good move (nowhere near as good as Lee's... but then, if Ogre had a class 1 launcher... time to kick some ass! Well, if TRUE OGRE had a class 1 more like it :D), juggles on counter hit, but it's wind up is slow. If you are blocked, they get hit too far back to retaliate anyway, if you hit (non-counter), run in for some okizeme, prolly something like f,f,N+4, or mixups if they roll back or get up etc. If you hit on counter, do any uf+4 juggle really (but for a flashy (and disgustingly pathetic) juggle, do a d,db+4(CH),ub+3, and then a 4~3 if they stay down. Looks pretty cool, what, with all the flipping around and stuff :P). Use now and then cos it's quite powerful and *relatively* safe, but don't get carried away as their are safer juggles starters (and if they sidestep it, you are in for some hurting). SS+4 Rating: 7.5 Pretty good move, adds to Ogre's sidestepping game (low attack off the sidestep, hoorah) and juggles. Don't get carried away with this or you will get low parried (ie. don't go crazy on the sidestep and SS+4 whenever you're in range), do it if you successfully sidestep an attack (though better stuff to do, but if they in the middle of a combo this oughtta interrupt them). BTW, if you wanna do his good ol' sidestep then standing 4, just press b+4 to sidestep cancel and do a standing 4. 4~3 Rating: 5.5 DO NOT use on a standing opponent, it is easy to see coming, and so they can interrupt it or just block and okizeme you. Do not use against techrollers or siderollers. Only use against backrollers of people who like to stay on the ground, do ankle kicks, recover crouching or recover with a sweep (and Lei players who can't stay standing... but then again better okizeme moves). On the up side, it does do some nice damage, but rarely hits anywayz. Also, this is supposed to be able to be done by doing uf+4~3 to make it faster like Jin and stuff. uf+3,4,3 Rating: 7 Rather average move, but does some nice damage when it connects, and you're relatively safe if they block (7 frame advantage). d+1 is prolly the best thing to do, or if you think they will remain blocking do a throw (Waning Moon is good, though not guaranteed as in T3, but you have 7 frames of advantage, and the throw takes 12 frames to perform, and provided that you *buffer* it [do the df motion while Ogre is still recovering], they will only have 5 frames to do something ie. nothing, cept Yoshi flash which dun work on throws I think). Don't overuse this as well, as it can be interrupted pretty easily (27 frame windup!), especially if you try it at close range. ub+3 Rating: 6 This can be used against tagging in (not much point though, cept to be fancy and show how much you can much around against then), charging, and the like opponents. Pretty gay though, many better things to do. But not as gay as... ub+3,2[~5] Rating: 4 This move is gay. Really gay. They only times you should EVER use this is when 1) You connect with the ub+3 on a big character, this will hit (in which case you can safely tag out, but that is like the only situation this will be useful. Ever.), 2) You've always done the single ub+3 your opponent won't expect this and runs in after and then gets whacked (this would only happen on below average players, possibly on better players but only because of the technicality that it would be possible and 3) You are stupid, you want to get hit, or maybe if you're kicking ass and you are just fooling around, but even then, I'd rather do the b,b+1+2 unblockable repeatedly. Oh, and 4) You are vsing either a beginner or a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY STUPID scrub. Ok, I may be condemning this move, but any uses for this that anyone may have found other than in combo and stuff, as in when facing each other, please tell me and I will glady find a way to show you the moves sux :P. Anyway, use your discretion, but I'm sure you'd figure out yourself you don't really wanna use this. f+2: Rating: 7 Although this is a pretty good and safe move, you should use it only at the right time. Like if the opponent wiffs and this is the only thing that can reach in time, or off sidesteps and the like... use your discretion. Don't just pull this out when you're facing each other and doing nothing, cos it's easy to see coming and so easily blocked (if you ain't interrupted and CH), it's pretty easy to reverse (but this prolly won't happen, and if it does, this move is too easy to chicken :P BTW, chickens may differ for different ppl eg. for Jin you gotta do uf+2+4 I think - and I don't know anymore so you'll hafta find out from other ppl/places whatever). Well, you might wanna use when facing each other just do put pressure on them and knock them back, but if they just know you're gonna do it, don't do it... oh yeah, even though this seems to track very well (if you do it under an opponent who you hit into the air, it will make Ogre spin like crazy, nearly 180 degree coverage), it seems to be able to be sidestepped relatively easily. Can be used against techrollers sometimes. In any case, this is most useful for its range and nice damage (often as a juggle ender, but I tend to use other moves like 4 or FC+3,3,N+3, depending on situation), but don't use it too often. f,f+1+2: Rating: 6.5 Very powerful (well, WAS. But it still packs a punch). Use only after a FC,df+2 hits, or in okizeme, but not against standing opponents (unless they have no skill), as it is easy to see coming, can be sidestepped, can be reversed (though it is chickenable, with f+2+4), but at least it knocks them far back if it's blocked. This is pretty much a (techable) juggle-ender and okizeme specific move. (u_uf+1+2)_(u_uf,N+1+2): Rating: 4 This move is crap. It doesn't track at all, so it can be sidestepped easily; Ogre doesn't hit until he's finished the jump, so it's easily interruptable; and it can be reversed (chickenable with f+2+4, even though his left arm is grabbed [for Jin anyway]... weird). The only time this will be useful is if your opponent is at a medium range or less, and you KNOW they will either tag recover off the ground or backroll, but you won't get many skilled players doing that. Or maybe at a certain range and they tag recklessly this might be able to hit in time, but you'd have to hit like before they come on screen otherwise they could tag cancel and this has bad recovery. f+1+4: Rating: A pretty good ram-type attack, as it does good damage, has good range, and when blocked, you are at a frame disadvantage (-1), but can usually hit with a d+1 or maybe a 1, depending on what the opponent will do. Try not to do too often otherwise they'll be blocking it more and characters with 8 frame jabs will probably smack you around before you can react. This can be easily anticipated and at close range you're likely to be interrupted, and, it can be easily sidestepped (if timed right). And yeah, same thing about the f,f+4 applies for this: don't overestimate the range cos it's only *active* during the middle part and after that he runs for quite a bit while being totally and utterly vunerable. Personally, I think there are more effective moves to use, but don't be afraid to throw this out now and then (some players react badly and try to hit you at the wrong time and get knocked over) as once it has started up, it has pretty good priority, due to its fast foward motion. Oh, and if you get blocked and you notice your opponent whacking madly at the punch buttons or going for a throw, you could try b+1+2 cos you recover at nearly the same time and so it should be sorta easy to get, but if you screw up, well... Anyway, this can be good against reversal-happy players as it is irreversable except against Anna (don't you just love seeing the other guy wave his hands around trying to grab the air only to be barge over by a big green hulk [ahhaha, funny, and I didn't even plan that :P], or a big blue snow beast thing). f,f+3+4: Rating: 2 (Me? 0...) This is totally worthless, nothing good about it (just because I say so, doesn't mean that's the be all and end all. You don't have to take my advice on it [it's not good to comdemn a move just cos it's what you think], so go try it out yourself, then tell me what you think - though I HIGHLY doubt your opinion will differ far from mine, but still, people will get up me if I condemn moves and stuff :P but then again, maybe not. If I went around saying the Mishima 1,2,2 was the crappiest move I'd prolly get mass support, or maybe opposed by those who joke about the 1,2,2 being any good...). Although it may be his most powerful single-hitting non-unblockable move AFAIK (and as far as the movelist goes), it ain't worth it. This has very bad tendency of missing (hell, it can hardly hit normal people like Jin! I think you have to be about a dash away [that's not including the dash he takes to do the move]) and even then it still screws up a lot, you can be knocked out of it very easily, it can be ducked, if you miss you are screwed (it takes a very long time for him to be able to get off the ground, meaning he will lie there a bit and THEN you can do something to get up) and even if they blocked they will most likely still have enough time to get in some hits while you lie on the ground. Pathetic move, not even useful against scrubs apart from the fact that it will probably hit like any other move used against a scrub (no wait, this probably won't even hit even against a scrub because it nearly always misses), but it still won't be much use. Just standing 4 them to death ffs :D f,f,N+3+4: Rating: 8 A useful move, but don't use against standing opponents, only for okizeme purposes. Well, you could if they have bad anticipation. Against a standing opponent, you hafta be pretty far away to not be hit out of it, and it can be seen coming pretty easily and blocked, leaving you lying at their feet. If you hit with this, and go under to the other side, press 3 to get up as it is NEARLY guaranteed (rare cases where a ankle kick beats it). Also, this would prolly hit a tagging in opponent, provided they don't hold DF as they come in and lowparry it. -Unblockables- f,f+2 Rating: 7 Pretty good move as it often catches people who like to block a lot by suprise. Most will block it, think they are ok and then get *crunched* or something equivalent. However, the "better" opponents will sidestep escape it and the "even better" opponents will backdash escape and EWGF you... A good thing is it hits mid though, and if you hit with the first hit the second can't be escaped. Don't use this at close range as it's sort of slow to come out and you most likely will be interrupted, best to use at dashing range about. As mentioned before, this can be escaped by a sidestep-stagger type way (u,N_d,N - essentially the same way as a normal sidestep) or a backdash (b,b...) which is better as they recovery is A LOT quicker. At the least, this move is irreversable so is pretty good against reversal-happy- should-be-shot-players. Mix in with custom strings to catch the opponent by suprise. Handy move, but DON'T get carried away (especially against good players who will probably escape it). b+2 Rating: 8 This tracks pretty well, does good damage, good range but its start up and recovery are a bit slow. In any case this move is pretty good, especially against people who sit (stand?) there and try to block it. Try to avoid using this too close because of its slow wind up (though make sure you won't whiff!). Also, this is good to mix in with poking as you'll force your opponent into blocking and just when they're thinking they're safe by blocking, POW! d+3 is guaranteed after... (pathetic compared to True Ogre's guaranteed d+3+4...) f,f,N+2 Rating: 8 Kind of the same as above, and although equal rating, I use this more as it's quicker (especially if you get the f,f,N motion out quick, and the f,f,N motion also means you can delay it as well), but I think apart from the dash, its range isn't as good (he kinda uses his elbow instead of hand and I have the tendency to overestimate and miss by an inch). This for some reason only tracks to the left in TTT now, prolly to make it less effective (LIKE ALL HIS BLOODY OTHER MOVES!!!), but I dunno about the b+2, so that might be better in some situations IF (IF that is, cos I'm not sure) it tracks to the right, the situations being against techrolling opponents. db+1+2 Rating: 2 I never use this move anymore (only used it when I was learning Ogre's moves and didn't know any many other unblockables apart from b+2 and f,f,N+2. Mainly because I hadn't bothered printing out his movelist and was using the one built into the game). Pretty slow windup, but its quick after that and tracks well. In addition, it has suprising range. It's damage is pretty poor though considering its slow windup. However, if you throw it out maybe once if fifty or so matches (although I wouldn't even bother using is THAT much :P in fact, I don't even use it at all anymore) you might be able to get a "deer in the headlights" (or is it kangaroo seeing as I'm in Australia?) reaction out of the opponent, and if they try and back away it can still hit as after the slow wind up he goes really fast and really far (though I'd much rather do b+2+3 which is even faster and ever further...). Otherwise, this is pov. uf+1+2~D_uf,N+1+2~D Rating: 3 3 because IF you use either of this unblockable or the one above, use this one. This is very easy to see coming, and against anyone who's smart enough can easily avoid it and punish you (for one, they can run under you and backthrow you... provided they don't run under just a little and you spin around and smack em a good one ehheeh). This can also be useful against those who like to lie on the ground (and not roll sideways) and don't know what to do when they see you coming (but that won't happen too much). Can also be used against some people after a juggle (if at the right range). The hop version once again doesn't serve much purpose except maybe range and to confuse the opponent - "Why is this Ogre guy so stupid?". Overall, this move is pretty bad (easy to see coming, tracking is nonexistent, and these two factors put together mean that it will be sidestepped a lot [not to mention you can just dash either way and it'll prolly miss]), but it has SOME uses, like hitting a tagging in opponent or something like that. b+2+3 Rating: 6.5 This is pretty good, even against the intermediate player. Use from between 1.5 and 2 dash distance, and especially against techrollers (who otherwise aren't too bright). Ogre moves back a bit as well, which is pretty good, hmmm, this kinda reminds me of Julia's f+1+4, cos they both move back a bit, have about the same wind up, rush foward quickly, track about to the same degree and damage is about the same, 'cept Ogre's doesn't juggle (but sends em rolling on CH :D). Either way, I use them in much the same situation (usually when an opponent is recovering from something like a techroll, sideroll, long recovery move etc.). Anyway, pretty good, throw out to catch opponent off guard but don't overuse, otherwise you'll get punished (best bet is against a techroll-happy opponent). b,b+1+2 Rating: 10 (if it took half the time to initiate, but it doesn't, so 3) Haven't landed this so far, well, maybe once on the PS2 against my friends who don't play, but that's prolly bout it. It just goes to show how slow this is, easy to avoid, and povo range (not to mention the b,b slows the initiation even more and effectively shortens the range). Only use against the worst of players (and most of the time only for a crowd pleaser) and even then, try to set it up (like anticipate their attack, then do it, making sure you won't get hit eg. they are Paul and are obviously crap. They will almost certainly do a deathfist, do the backdash as far as you can and then press 1+2 to do the unblockable. They do the deathfist, they totally miss cos they are a pathetic scrub who does deathfists hoping you will walk into it. Consequent of the deathfist, they move RIIIIGGGGHHHHHTTTT up to you, Ogre finishes winding up and whacks them a good 100 points of damage. Hooray, instant win!). BTW, you can barely set this up anyway because of its REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, *deep breath*, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY SLOW wind up, and so even if you know they will techroll and you do the move, they will most likely not only have time to techroll, but to move back, and if Kuma, do the 1+3+4... and let it finish before you have recovered. Well, maybe not, but enough time to get away, interrupt etc. :) -Specials- b+1+2 Use Rating: 7 I would use this whenever I could, against high attacks that is, but the timing is very hard. You'll have to anticipate your opponent's attack. This would have a higher rating but it's hard to get to work, and if you try doing it too much you're just gonna get hit. If you can get it the majority of the time, then the use rating pretty much works right, but if you can't, don't try using too much (maybe 3-5/10. But against computer feel free to practice). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *********************** * 4) CUSTOM STRINGS * *********************** Yeah ummm, you should know what custom strings are... in short, I guess they're best defined as a bunch of moves strung together to give the opponent little time to interrupt and put pressure on him, usually to get an opening and juggle the opponent or do some major damage. Against good opponents, you shouldn't continue if they block the df+1, but against scrubs and maybe intermediates and stuff, go ahead (sometimes, just figure if they will try to interrupt or not). And BTW, these have many moves or combinations of moves in common, so you can really link these all over the place and go on forever (the obvious ones are pointed out with the [...], but the infinity kicks one isn't advisable, just there cos you can if you want. Or just playing a scrub...) - PITBULL DAMMIT! - but if they block certain moves it's risky to go on, like the df+1 as mentioned before, and 1,1 or 1,2 jabs as well, cos if blocked it leaves you at at a disadvantage of -6 frames. But if they aren't smart, panic and don't interrupt and stay blocking (or get hit trying to do a slow move), feel free to go on. Note: 1)These can be started with (1,1)_(1,2) but this may affect some hits. Some may miss or hit if not before. eg. d+1 does not always hit, however, this can be replaced with d+2 which has more range and damage, but is slower. [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], WS+2 [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], WS+3,3,d+3,3,[3...] [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC,f+1 [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC,f+2 [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC,df+2 [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC+3,3,(d+3)_(N+3) [1,1_2], df+1, (1+3)_(2+4)_(df,DF+2+4) [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, (1+3)_(2+4)_(df,DF+2+4) [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+1[...] [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+1,2 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+2 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1,2, df+4 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, f+2 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, b+2 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, f,f,N+2 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, d+4,[4] [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, uf+4 [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, f,f+2 1,1_2, df+1, 1,1_2[...] 1,1_2, df+1,2 1,1_2, [df+1], (1+3)_(2+4)_(df,DF+2+4) 1,1_2, [df+1], df+2 1,1_2, [df+1], df+4 1,1_2, [df+1], f+2 1,1_2, [df+1], b+2 1,1_2, [df+1], f,f,N+2 1,1_2, [df+1], d+4,[4] 1,1_2, [df+1], uf+4 1,1_2, [df+1], f,f+2 BLCSTSDSM - Big Long Custom String That Should Destory Scrubs Maybe [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC+3,3,d+3, WS+3,3,d+3,3,[3...] -Analysis- [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], WS+2 Your standard custom combo. If you know they will block the WS+2, add in the FC+4, then do WS+2 if they expect another low attack. If you hit with the WS+2 on clean hit, do a Waning Moon. If hit normally and you are close enough, do a Waning Moon. If they block, your best bet is a d+1, then do whatever from there. Anyway, don't use the WS+2 too often cos it's quite slow in TTT and bad recovery... [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], WS+3,3,d+3,3,[3...] Very good if they expect a low attack after d+1, cos the first 4 or 5 hits of the infinite kicks will do some good damage. If they block you should fairly safe, though you'll be -16 frames disadvantaged. You should really only do the first 4 most of the time, only do More if you are sure your opponent will get hammered. Also, if the d+1 connects, the infinity kicks (first 4) should be guaranteed (damn cheap, but so are a lot of other things (and Ogre needs as much help as he can get anyway, SO THERE! Call me cheap and I'll WS+2,4 ya! :P) [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC,f+1 This is ok to use, but the FC,f+1 comes out sorta slow, so the main point of using this is to fake out your opponent (try fool him into attacking and then he gets hit). If the last hit connects, they will crumple and you get them with some okizeme. [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC,f+2 Nice and damaging, but they will have the advantage on you if you hit on anything but a counter hit with the FC,f+2. Mix up and delay and stuff to catch them on counter hit. Not tooooo advisable due to bad recovery 'cept on CH in which case the opponent crumples (but a CH is hard to land with this because of its slow windup). [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC,df+2 If you connect with the FC,df+2, it will lead up for some nice guaranteed damage, namely from the f,f+1+2. Mix up with other stuff because if they block the FC,df+2 you will be at a HUGE disadvantage, due to very poor recovery. Do a lot of WS+2 so that they get used to blocking standing up, then throw this in now and then. [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, [FC+4], FC+3,3,(d+3)_(N+3) Good for when they expect a mid/high attack. Once again, mix up to confuse them. Also mix up the d+3 and N+3 ender, most people will get hit by the d+3 rather than taking the chance of eating the N+3. If they do start to block low, throw in the N+3. However, if the d+3 is blocked, you will be slower to recovery, whereas if you do the N+3, if it hits, bloody good, if they block it, they get knocked back anyway. [1,1_2], df+1, (1+3)_(2+4)_(df,DF+2+4) Good to throw (haha) in when they are expecting you to do a d+1 or 1,1 as they won't be ready to break, especially if its the Waning Moon. Use now and then to throw (WAHAHA) them off. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, (1+3)_(2+4)_(df,DF+2+4) Another way of mixing up the throwing. If they are getting wise to you throwing right after df+1, use the 1,1_2 now and then and then throw them. This will probably create a sort of a guessing game. And then you can throw in a b+2 unblockable to piss 'em off. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+1[...] A sort of infinite mix up, you can start your custom strings all over again, though I think they will be pushed away eventually. But anyway, if you mix this stuff up with low attacks, and then they get hit by df+1, then, as Renick would say, "It puts you in range by impact, and a d+1 is guaranteed afterward.", and then you can link up other custom strings. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+1,2 Same as above but ends with a 2 instead of continuing. If you hit it adds some more damage too. Keeps the pressure on the opponent and maybe even makes them panic more as you usually only do a single df+1, and possibly making them freeze long enough to let you do another custom string or something. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+2 Pretty much same use as the df+1, but if you hit with this you can run in with some other moves as they stagger back. Some people say uf+3,4,3 but I don't think that's in range, unless you move foward a bit. A f,f+4 works well, unless they're smart enough to avoid it in the many ways it can be, but if they block they stagger, leading up to another guessing game (d+1 - leads up to yet MORE guessing/df,DF+2+4/1,1,2) or it'll just plain hit the dumbass right in the face :P. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, df+4 A nice and quick kick at the end of it will dish out decent damage if they crouch, or if they block it'll knock them away, leaving you at square one again, but you'll be building up a psychological edge all the way as long as you keep them on defense. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, f+2 Has a sort of delay in the pace of things, adds to confusion yet again, they try to strike and get hit with a powerful f+2. Good to use now and then, just as long as they don't try to interrupt (and make sure to chicken buffer!) [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, b+2 Another nice thing to throw in, hoping that the opponent will stay blocking. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, f,f,N+2 Same as above, but I think it is a tad quicker, provided you do the f,f,N quickly. Though if opponents see you doing a f,f in, they might try to retaliate. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, d+4,[4] It's good to mix up the hit ranges now and then. Throw this in if they just stand there and block. [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, uf+4 If you think they might try to retaliate, as long as not with a quick move (maybe with a throw this oughta work), do this to do a juggle, adding to the damage as well as psychological damage (after blocking a lot and trying to fight back, only to get juggled for some unavoidable damage would get on your nerves wouldn't it?). [1,1_2], df+1, 1,1_2, f,f+2 Same principle as the b+2 or f,f,N+2 ending strings, and slightly quicker as well (though escapable, but 1) If you hit it can't be escaped anyway 2) Many people don't know the escapes 3) Even people who do know the escapes might not react it time, as you are pitbulling them with custom strings and all, and then you throw this out. Of course, against better ppl I wouldn't try too much... MIX IT UP DAMMIT AND YOU JUST MIGHT GET IT TO WORK =P). All the rest (from the third set) are really just variations of the second set, apart from my special. BLCSTSDSM - Big Long Custom String That Should Destory Scrubs Maybe [1,1_2], df+1, d+1, FC+3,3,d+3, WS+3,3,d+3,3,[3...] This works especially well against scrubs and even works on some intermediates. Most people would rather stand after the snake kicks to eat the d+3 rather than get hit by a d+3 (however, the better ppl can tell the difference between the end... I myself, an average player, can tell the difference!), and as for scrubs, well, they don't know how to duck and block... After the d+3 (provdided it connects, if it doesn't, it's pretty risky continuing), you will be at -3 frame disadvantage, and the infinite kicks take 10 frames to start up. Therefore, they opponent has 13 frames to stop you (pretty risky, but it should destroy scrubs maybe =P), so unless they jab or use a quick attack, you will get the infinite kicks started and hopefully they will be dumb enough to get hit by the the first few infinite kicks =P Massive damage from just those 4 hits (or 3, depending which way you did the infinite kicks), INSANE DAMAGE if you hit the scrubby bastard with the whole string (over 120 damage I think). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ************************* * 5) JUGGLES & COMBOS * ************************* Ok I haven't listed all of Ogre's juggles known and all, I just put in the most handy and powerful and stuff. Some of the techable juggles that aren't as strong as the other techable juggles have been included as they still do good damage and aren't as "noticeably techable", and some of them have tech- baiting properties (more later). Techable (or escapable in some form) combos have been marked. I've also added some juggles from Catlord's Combo Compendium that are pretty good and he sez are guaranteed so I'll take his word for it. BTW, some juggles have variations of 4 or df+1,4 cos I'm not sure what does more damage in TTT (cos the move lists don't tell damage for standing 4 as it ain't a technique), but I think doing the df+1 first is better, but a 4 still does a crapload of damage, and it's a lot easier (not that doing df+1,4 is that hard, but anyway). Note: Juggles that can be teched (or escaped) are marked with a . Also, d,db+4(CH) juggles can be done after a tooth fairy (ub+3,2) as well (which is a gay move anyway hehehe). FC+3,3,N+3, 4 FC+3,3,N+3, df+1, 4 FC+3,3,N+3, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4, FC+3,3,N+3[~5]* (Not sure if after doing the uf+4 the rest of the combo is guaranteed but anyway) FC+3,3,N+3, WS+3,3,d+3,3(big) FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4, f,f+1+2 * FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4, 1,1, f,f+1+2(big) * (Made by me, hoorah (unless someone else did, but I haven't seen so, SO THERE! hehe)... this can also be done on normal characters but you must be close to opponent to start with or the 1,1 will not hit.) *You can swap df+1 with uf+4, which is very possible, though you have to be quicker on the timing for the moves after I think WS+2(Clean), df,DF+2+4 (Followups are mentioned in separate section) WS+2(Clean), 4 (>:D This is just plain EVIL) WS+2(Clean), 2,2 (nearly as much damage as 4, but this will leave them standing for some pitbulling, guessing games, whatever. You'll also have +2 frame advantage. Pretty much here just for variety and mixing up) WS+2(Clean), uf+3,4,[3] (if you leave off the last 3, you'll have a guessing game going. I say to stay in FC, if they flinch, to a FC,df+2 or FC,f+2. If they tech, wait a bit [so the moves will track properly] and then do the above mentioned moves) Note: Above aren't necessarily guaranteed due to stun escape blah blah... [WS+2], uf+4, df+1, 4 [WS+2], uf+4, df+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] (IMO this should be your basic combo) [WS+2], uf+4, df+1, d,db+4[~5] (damn that looks cool :P) [WS+2], uf+4, df+1_uf+4, f,f+1+2 [WS+2], uf+4, df+1_uf+4, d+1, FC,f+2 f,f+2, d+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] f,f+2, d+1, FC,f+2 d,db+4(CH), 4 d,db+4(CH), df+1, 4 d,db+4(CH), df+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] d,db+4(CH), df+1, d,db+4[~5] d,db+4(CH), df+1, df+1, d+4,4 d,db+4(CH), WS+3,3,d+3,3(big) d,db+4(CH), df+1, df+1, d,db+4[~5](big) df+2(CH), 4 df+2(CH), df+1, 4 df+2(CH), df+2, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] df+2(big), df+1,2, d+4,4 df+2(big), f~df,DF+2+4 Note: The above aren't necessarily guaranteed, I think after the lift stun the following moves can be blocked by manual guard... I think FC,f+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] FC,f+2(CH), d+4,4 FC,f+2(CH), d+3, FC,df+2 (Found this out, dunno if someone else has :P) FC,f+2(CH), d+3, FC,f+2 (Same here) FC,f+2(CH), FC,df+2 (I know someone else found this out first, but at least I had the fun of discovering it myself. If you do the second FC quick enough [ie. using a quick methed, like holding DF for a bit, then hitting 2] this will connect, and I'm pretty sure it's guaranteed. A bitch to get going though =P) FC,df+2, f,f+1+2 FC,df+2, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] FC,df+2, WS+4,4 SS+4, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] SS+4, WS+4, 1,1,2 SS+4, WS+4, d+1, FC,f+2 (Uhhh, think this is untechable, not sure though) -A "Cleaner" List- FC+3,3,N+3, 4 FC+3,3,N+3, df+1,4 FC+3,3,N+3, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] FC+3,3,N+3, WS+3,3,d+3,3(big) FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4, f,f+1+2 FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4, 1,1,f,f+1+2(big) WS+2(Clean), df,DF+2+4 WS+2(Clean), 4 WS+2(Clean), 2,2 WS+2(Clean), uf+3,4,[3] [WS+2], uf+4, df+1, 4 [WS+2], uf+4, df+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] [WS+2], uf+4, df+1, d,db+4[~5] [WS+2], uf+4, df+1_uf+4, f,f+1+2 [WS+2], uf+4, df+1_uf+4, d+1, FC,f+2 f,f+2, d+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] f,f+2, d+1, FC,f+2 d,db+4(CH), 4 d,db+4(CH), df+1, 4 d,db+4(CH), df+1, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] d,db+4(CH), df+1, d,db+4[~5] d,db+4(CH), df+1, df+1, d+4,4 d,db+4(CH), WS+3,3,d+3,3(big) d,db+4(CH), df+1, df+1, d,db+4[~5](big) df+2(CH), 4 df+2(CH), df+1, 4 df+2(CH), df+2, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] df+2(big), df+1,2, d+4,4 df+2(big), f~df,DF+2+4 FC,f+1, FC+3,3,N+3 FC,f+2(CH), d+4,4 FC,f+2(CH), d+3, FC,df+2 FC,f+2(CH), d+3, FC,f+2 FC,f+2(CH), FC,df+2 FC,df+2, f,f+1+2 FC,df+2, FC+3,3,N+3 FC,df+2, WS+4,4 SS+4, FC+3,3,N+3[~5] SS+4, WS+4, 1,1,2 SS+4, WS+4, d+1, FC,f+2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ***************************** * 6) TAG JUGGLES & COMBOS * ***************************** This section I've just banged together with a bunch of juggles from here and there. Too lazy to really bother figuring out more, besides, I play True Ogre more cos he whoops major ass =P -Class 1- UF,4, 1,1,2 UF,4, 1,2,2 UF,4, 4 UF,4, d+1, d+1, FC,f+2 UF,4, df+1, d+1, FC,f+2 UF,4, df+1, d+1, FC,df+2 UF,4, df+1, FC+3,3,N+3~5 UF,4, FC+3,3,N+3 f,f+4, 1,2,2 f,f+4, 1, d,db+4[~5, f,f,N+1+2] f,f+4, d+1, cc, 1,1,2 f,f+4, d+1, d+1, FC,f+2 f,f+4, BK d+1, WS+4,4 f,f+4, FC+3,3,N+3[~5, f,f,N+1+2] d,db+4, d+1, cc, 1,1,2 ub+3,2[~5,f,f,N+4] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ******************** * 7) WANING MOON * ******************** Waning Moon is probably one of the best throws in the game, definitely Ogre's best throw, and can lead up to some damaging followups. Good ways of setting it up are listed below (buffer Waning Moon where possible, which is most of the time, the reason why the following are good ways of setting it up): -Setting Up- Key: WM = Waning Moon (df,DF+2+4) B = Blocked * = Preferably. You can still do it on a normal hit, but not guaranteed (well, TECHNICALLY it isn't guaranteed on clean hit as you can tag out of the stun). 1,1_2,WM WS+2(Clean*),WM WS+4,WM f,f+4(B),WM uf+3,4(B),WM df+1,WM - The "HAN special" After universal low parry (d/f), WM Opponent suffers guard stun (eg. After blocked (WR)1+2) Opponent misses attack, WM Block attack w/ long recovery, WM -Finishing Off- Here are some descriptions of methods of finishing off the Waning Moon (BTW, if you *think* you know what your opponent will do, or he does the same thing over and over, use the best move for that situation, desipte the ratings I've given...): *F1* (Run in)f+2 Waning-Moon-Use Rating: 9 The most reliable followup after Waning Moon. This will hit standing or crouching opponents, has good range, avoids some high attacks (BTW, when someone is BK and they attack, in most cases, that attack is high) I think, although they shouldn't have time to attack anyway, pretty sure it's unescapable. VERY easy to perform, so if you screw this up other than EXTREMELY rarely, you are crap... VERY crap indeed =P *F2* (WR)3 Waning-Moon-Use Rating: 8 Easy and damaging, essentially the same as f+2, forgot which does more damage though. *F3* (Run in)uf+3,4,3 Waning-Moon-Use Rating: 8 Good range and damage. Pretty much the same properties as doing f+3 this starts with essentially the same type of move. Very fancy looking and all, and I think more damage than the above as well. *F4* (Run in)d,db+4~5, f,f,N+1+2 Waning-Moon-Use Rating: 8 Douzono's combo. Castel also had this in his True Ogre Act 1 vid, but I think he did the d~db+4 a tad late (Kazuya's head turned around, therefore he would be able to do stuff, maybe. Whater =P). Anyway, pretty good to do, and fancy as well. I've heard that the tag dive doesn't always hit either but a good followup nonetheless. *F5* (Run in)1+3_2+4 Waning-Moon-Use Rating: 6-8 - Depends on opponent, how quick you are and situation (eg. if they only have a bit of damage left, there isn't much point trying to land this) Hard to get but VERY damaging. You have to be quick to pull this one off. Remember, Ogre has good reach with throws, so you don't have to be right up to them to grab them. If you can perfect the timing of this, it can be hard to avoid (I think if your quick enough, and the opponent tries to turn around, you can still get the backthrow. Not sure, oh well). *F6* f,f+4, d+4,4 Waning-Moon-Use Rating: 8-9 Castel had this in Ogre Combo Act 1 (I had already tried f,f+4 but it could be screwed up if mistimed pretty easily and seeing as I didn't think about doing a d+4,4 after for more damage, I didn't think it was worthwhile). This is quite damaging and guaranteed I'm pretty sure. Just make sure you don't whiff (look stupid, hurt bad). The way I figure the timing for this is to get a little foward motion from the f,f. Too much will give the opponent time to react, too little will make you fall short. Here's a little chart that will show what's best to do in a nutshell (of course this isn't the be all and end all of what to do, this is just my opinion of what to do eg. I don't think F6 would be wise to use if they crouch all the time in case you don't do it quick enough and you will totally and utterly miss): Key: A = Opponent is defensive (ie. holds back to turn around) B = Opponent crouches C = Opponent is slow and/or you are VERY quick +--A--|ANY| | | |Waning Moon|--+--B--|*F1*_*F4*| | | +--C--|ANY, *F5* r0x0rs though hehehe| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ **************** * 8) OKIZEME * **************** Ogre's okizeme is one of the best in the game, and it's bloody fun to kick an opponents ass while he's still on the ground, especially if he doesn't know how to get up (I once took nearly half a life bar off a guy on okizeme alone, though I'm sure there's a lot of people who can do better. Though that was a looooongggg time ago against some guy who wasn't too good, considering that was the time very soon after I was getting over tenstrings and all and I was beating his ass down...). I think that it is very important that an Ogre player is good with okizeme as well as juggles and stuff. The key is anticipation, if you know what your opponent is going to do to get up, you can keep him on the ground for a long time... (against scrubs at the very least, sometimes indefinitely, rolling backwards is so easy to punish :P) -Setting Up- These are listed in order of what I consider the best setups to "worst" (doesn't mean they aren't good) setups, I have also made another list for setting up the f,f,N mixup (see later): *Standard Okizeme* *f,f,N mixup* Juggles Juggles Basic Throws 1,1>2 b+2 f+2 f,f,N+2 1,1>2 f+2 SS+4 f,f,N+3+4 f+1+4 -Unorthodox Methods of Setting Up- These setups are moves that should be followed up with okizeme but shouldn't be used to actually set up okizeme. Therefore, if you hit with a f,f+3, you can follow up with okizeme but don't try landing a f,f+3 just to set okizeme up (in fact, you should practically almost NEVER use f,f+3 in the first place, unless in some sort of situation where its the best option, but when will that happen? And if it has, I would like to know). These are also in order as above: *Standard Okizeme* *f,f,N mixup* FC,f+1 f,f,N+4 (Whether they are standing or grounded) FC,f+2(CH) 4 f,f+3 d,db+4 uf+3,4,3 b+2+3 f,f+1+2 -Okizeme Tools- Here is a brief (or not) outline on Ogre's okizeme tools (BTW, if you *think* you know what your opponent will do, or he does the same thing over and over, use the best move for that situation, desipte the ratings I've given... hmmm, sounds familiar, but it still applies for okizeme, moreso that is): d+3 Okizeme-Use Rating: 8 Your good ol' all purpose oki-tool. Use on an opponent at your feet who doesn't get up (can be used instead of the d+4,4 so you don't get predictable), because other moves are too slow to wind up at close range (eg. f,f,N+4) which would give them time to get up and hit you, unless you're quick. This is most likely a move that should be used at lot when the opponent is at your feet, also cos its safe and practically guaranteed, but I personally prefer going for more damage, like using stuff like the f,f,N+4, which has a little risk. So if you want to get in that extra *little* damage and be safe, use this. FC+3,3,d+3_N+3 Okizeme-Use Rating: 7 In the event that your opponent is at your feet and stays down long enough not to get hit by d+4,4 but not long enough to get hit by a f,f+1+2 or something similar, you can use this to the same effect as the Heihachi's hellsweeps (first hit will knock away if they stay down, if they roll away all three will hit, if you use the N+3 ender). I only use the d+3 version when I miss the first and subsequently the second, to chase them down, and the third generally hits, though it really depends on situation. This situation usually happens against side/techrollers. Once again, depending on situation, you should only do two as they often get hit too far away and the recovery of the third kick will leave you open to attack after they get up. d+4,4 Okizeme-Use Rating: 7 Best used when your opponent is at your feet (eg. after 2+4 throw it is very effective if opponent tries to do something) and you anticipate that they will get up in one way or another. This is because as soon as they flinch (even with an ankle kick) the low kick will hit them, and then so will the high kick. This will also knock them to nice distance perfect for more okizeme. However, don't get predictable against a smart opponent else they will just lie there, your kicks will miss and you will probably get hit while recovering. Of course, you could go with the single d+4 but the recovery is still slow enough to get hit anyway. Anyway, if your opponent always tries to get up straight away, use this with gay abandon (don't misinterpret that heh). 4~3 Okizeme-Use Rating: 4 Nice damage, bad recovery, which doesn't matter much if you hit, IF. This goes in a straight line, so use against people at your feet who roll back or who are roughly at flipkicks range and stay down just that litte bit longer. This is good ONLY against people who don't know that Tekken is a 3D game and play it like street fighter ie. they don't techroll, sideroll etc. However, even if they do know, but they are a player who likes to sit there until you hit them, you can do this and prolly hit, but after a while (say, once...) they'll probably catch on, and also, the range at which this hits would be far enough away that they prolly won't lie there cos it'll be a safe distance (of course is they try to get up you can always go for a f,f,N+2_4 depending on how they get up. Maybe even f,f,N+3+4). In any case, f,f,N+4 is prolly a better option, but you can use this now and then if you KNOW (ie. ABSOLUTELY, POSTIVELY SURE) it will hit, cos you are screwed if you miss. Oh btw, although not REALLY okizeme, against those handstanding Eddy's, this works great =D (but so does f,f,N+4 =P). SS+4 Okizeme-Use Rating: 7.5 This could have some nice little effects in okizeme. For one, say if the opponent is close to you, you could SS to throw them off and trick them into flinching and then you hit 4 and hit them (if they stood up, you'll trip em if timed right, and then some nice juggles can be done), if they stay there, this will hit anyway as it hits grounded opponents, AND it does a nice damage of 22. d,db+4 Okizeme-Use Rating: 6.5 I don't really use this, but it can be used when the opponent gets up but you'll prolly hafta anticipate, else it might not hit in time, and whiffing is bad :(. But, if it does hit, it'll do some nice damage (30), but I prefer doing stuff like good ol' f,f,N+4 which will do 20 damage, not so bad, and a lot safer. Besides, this will probably only hit foward/backrollers or crouch recoverers (is that a word?) as it dun track. FC,f+2 Okizeme-Use Rating: 7 This is an alright move, good damage, speed and range, though poor recovery, you can go into crouch position as soon as you knock the opponent over, and wait for him to flinch. However, I wouldn't recommend against tech/siderollers as this doesn't track all that well, and you'll get whacked if you miss because of its recovery time (hell, even when you hit a standing opponent with this, they recover faster than you! Unless on counterhit, in which case they crumple), BUT, if you wait till when they've nearly finished techrolling, I think it will hit (though which side they roll may also affect the result). If only Ogre could be more like True Ogre with his super long righty... FC,df+2 Okizeme-Use Rating: 7 Average, might as well use FC,f+2 as it does more damage and for some reason hits better (I think because of the way he arcs his arm differently, and I think it has more range). However, this is good if you opponent stands or sometimes against one that techrolls, as just as they stands, you whip this out and then will get a guaranteed f,f+1+2 after (which isn't as damaging in TTT and there are prolly better followups, like FC+3,3,N+3 which requires quicker timing I think but methinks does more damage and is taggable), unless they crouch recover, in which case you are more or less screwed, unless they are absolutely stupid. BTW, if your opponent doesn't move for sometime you can use this for some alright damage, but there are better options. This SOMETIMES hits grounded but not on a regular (and thus reliable) basis. Thie move has the same deal with True Ogre owning Ogre's ass in all departments 'cept for stumpy legs and a tankass... f,f+1+2 Okizeme-Use Rating: 7.5 Make sure your opponent isn't going to techroll or roll sideways cos this doesn't track for shit and you will be absolutely screwed if you miss, cos your opponent will most likely be at your side and it'll be lights out for you. But if your opponent loves to stay on the ground (I'll usually just f,f,N+4 them over and over, and then f,f,N+3+4 when they get away, cos I always forget to use this except as a juggle ender, although FC+3,3,N+3 does such a great job as an ender anywayz), go for this and then they'll be sorry =D (just be sure you'll hit). f+1+4 Okizeme-Use Rating: 5.5 This isn't that bad, but not that good, cos if you miss, you'll probably be backturned and they could very possibly get in a backthrow, which can't be good for your health. Use this if you anticipate the opponent will stand or backroll, and make sure they aren't too far away (in which case you should go for f,f,N+3+4) or you'll just be doing them a favour by running up to them to be beaten around. f,f,N+4 Okizeme-Use Rating: 9 Kick ass move! Good for running down opponents over and over. Very effective against people who stay on the ground, backroll, recover crouching and even standing (If you got carried away and they get up right into it). However, if they techroll you're screwed... BUT if you actually anticipate and do the f,f,N motion and wait to see what they do, which is very effective as the 2,4 or 3+4 can be delayed quite a bit (even when you've stopped moving they'll still come out), and delay the 4 enough you can actually hit techrollers. If you do miss with this move its recovery is good enough that most of the time you should be fairly safe. Anyways, this move is a very reliable okizeme tool, just make sure you use it properly... f,f,N+3+4 Okizeme-Use Rating: 8 Another good move, mostly used for chasing down an opponent tagging out, backrolling or a fair distance away. I usually use this after multiple f,f,N+4's knock the opponent too far away :). Again, watch for techrollers and siderollers, as this will miss quite easily. When you miss you at least slide a fair bit away from your opponent, and if you're lucky, and your opponent is dumb and slow, you can recover without them performing okizeme on you :P. f,f,N+2 Okizeme-Use Rating: 8 Not really an okizeme tool, but can be used for opponents getting back up. Use against people who recover standing or crouching (it hits mid), techrollers to Ogre's left and sometimes backrollers if you're quick (if your using the f,f,N mixup it shouldn't be too much of a problem). -The f,f,N mixup- Righteo, this is a certain "trick" used in okizeme to hit the opponent no matter what they do. Sounds like it's foolproof, but it isn't. Nonetheless it's bloody effective. BTW, I got this from Renick's FAQ who got it from Sauer Krauts T3 FAQ, so credit to both, though I adapted it a little for my style. What this mixup uses is the following moves: f,f,N+2 f,f,N+4 f,f,N+3+4 To set it up, do the f,f,N motion as soon as you knockdown your opponent (including after juggles). If the opponent gets up standing or crouching (or techrolls left - move won't track right), you hit 2. If they stay down or recover crouching (and sorta when they tech, it doesn't always hit), hit 4. If they roll back (or foward...) and even if they stay on ground (though I dun advise), or if they are too far away for anything else, hit 3+4. In a nutshell: Key: A = Opponent recovers standing, crouching, or techrolls left. B = Opponent recovers crouching, stays grounded, or techrolls. C = Opponent foward/backrolls, or stays grounded. +--A--|f,f,N+2| | | |Opponent KND|--+--B--|f,f,N+4| | | +--C--|f,f,N+3+4| -When To Do What- I think that the most important part of okizeme is knowing what to do when (but if you can stop them from ever getting up again until you kill them, that's just fine...). I've pretty much covered it in the descriptions but I'll do it in a nice orderly fashion here. Here's what I think: *Opponent Recovers Standing* -Close Range: If they're gonna try and stand, just d+4,4 them, in fact, d+4,4 works whenever they try to do something at your feet. However, if you did not anticipate this, you can still do it if you want, but just throw them maybe (this is not really okizeme but it'll ground 'em again), Waning Moon preferably. I reckon go for b+2 or f,f,N+2 (I think might be quicker if you can do it quick enough). Just do what you think is the best for the situation. -Medium Range: I'd say the best options here would be f,f,N+2 (works like a charm), FC,f+2 to some extent and definitely FC,df+2. You can try a f+1+4 but not really that good an option. f,f,N+4 works pretty good as well. -Long Range: Best option here is the f,f,N+3+4. The f,f,N+4 might work, depending on the situation. *Opponent Recovers Crouching* -Close Range: A good option is the uf+4 hopkick for a free juggle. Alternatively you could go for a df+4 or some other relatively fast mid move. A f,f,N+4 will work if you're quick, but not as effective at close range. -Medium Range: Definitely f,f,N+4. 4~3 SHOULD work, though rather risky. f+1+4 works better here than at close range, and other than getting lucky and interrupting you, the best they can do is stand and block (though not the best option anyway). Once again f,f,N+2 kicks ass. -Long Range: Not much option here, cos f,f,N+3+4 will be blocked, leaving you, hmmm, screwed. Maybe a uf+1+2, but this takes long enough to let them react and either interrupt or stand and block. If you delay the f,f,N+4 enough to get as much range as possible, it might still work. *Opponent Stays Grounded* -Close Range: You can do d+3, which is nice and safe and dandy and all, but rather low on the damage. If they are just staying grounded in front of you it's probably because they are either waiting for you to whiff to give them a chance to get up or knock them away. You might wanna try a f,f+1+2 for some nice damage, though I wouldn't do too often, as they'll catch on and interrupt with a kick recover of some form probably. You can also do a f,f,N+4 (double tap REALLY quick then release) and it'll come out quick enough, a nice safe option. After this you can go for the f,f,N mixup. BTW, after you knock them away with a f,f,N+4 most ppl will take that as their chance to get up after being knocked away so usually a f,f,N+2 will be a very good followup and put them back on the ground. -Medium Range: The 4~3 and f,f,1+2 still work well, but they are rather risky. f,f,N+4 is probably the best option, also, a f,f,N+3+4 should work too but you might as well do a f,f,N+4. -Long Range: Probably the f,f,N+3+4. Once again f,f,N+4 for same reason. If you're feeling real lucky you could try a uf+1+2~D, but I wouldn't advise trying this very often. *Opponent Rolls Back (or forward if they are crazy...)* -Close Range: Doing d+4,4 is easy and good enough, and also puts them at an ideal range for more okizeme. Other decent options would be to do a f,f+1+2 or f,f,N+4. A 4~3 is ok as well, just make sure you don't flip OVER them... both the FC,df+2 and FC,f+2 work well too. -Medium Range: Ideal range and situation for okizeme. You can go for f,f+1+2, a FC,f+2 works and sometimes FC,df+2 (I wouldn't use this much, it has a tendency to screw up). But these three might whiff if they roll back and you mistime them. I recommend going for a f,f,N+4 as it is quick, damaging enough and puts them back on the ground at your feet, usually leaving the opponent at a good range for other okizeme techniques (or another f,f,N+4). -Long Range: Once again, the f,f,N+3+4 is probably the only thing you can do. If they aren't too far away, you can go for the uf+1+2 (great damage) but once again will most likely only work on scrubs, but then again, not many others roll back now do they? And if they are rolling back, they can't go sideways so this should hit. Therefore, this works whenever someone backrolls (provided you aren't a tool and miss). f,f,N+4, same reason, but this time, as they are rolling back, they might be too far away for this. *Opponent Techrolls* -Close Range: Hmmm, b+2 (or f,f,N+2) should work. Problem with f,f,N+2 is that is doesn't track to the right anymore, and you really begin to see the difference when they tech to your right and sidethrow you or something... Doing a uf+4 hopkick is ok if you time it well. You might want to try throwing them as well. -Medium Range: The f,f,N+2 is very effective here except for the fact that it doesn't track to the right. I've found that doing f,f,N+4 and delaying that 4 a bit will track a fairly well and still hit. You can also use b+2 instead of f,f,N+2 but the range is less (you'll have to dash in first) and it's slower, so prolly stick with f,f,N+2. -Long Range: Yes well, not much option here, as they are far away and by the time most moves will close the range they will be standing again. The f,f,N+3+4 could work if delayed but probably not too well. *Opponent Tag Recovers* -Close Range: Once again d+4,4 works quite well. Other stuff to do would be the f,f,N+4 maybe, and possibly FC,f+2_df+2. You'll have to be quick though. It's usually easy to anticipate a tag recover after you've just knocked them down in one way or another and they only have a sliver of life left. uf+1+2 works too. Maybe even go for a b+2+3 or f,f+4 to hit the tagging in partner. Depends really, you might even go for an uf+4 hopkick to juggle the partner. -Medium Range: A f,f,N+3+4 should work. Same stuff as for close really except the d+4,4. -Long Range: Weeeellll, not much option here, f,f,N+3+4 is probably the best thing to do, just make sure you you cover the distance... You could still possibly hit with uf+1+2 and maybe go for b+2+3 or uf+1+2~D (to hit the incoming partner). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ****************** * 9) TAG STUFF * ****************** Tag stuff. 'nuff said. -When to tag- Well, if you don't know, Ogre is pov with the whole concept of tagging, so its important to know what to do so that you don't get Ogre or his partner's ass kicked. *Start with other charcter as Ogre most likely has worse tagging out abilities *Netsu ain't gonna happen (would you wanna help a big green monster that kills lots of people?) *Tag as much as possible so that you can regenerate lost energy (just don't tag in a weaker partner...) whenever it's safe, usually try and tag out the character with the bigger red bar if it's safe, as you might not get another safe oppurtunity for a while. If the other partner is near full and Ogre's even only lost about 25% I'll still tag to let him heal (keeping your characters' health as high as possible helps you win the round). *Definitely tag when low on health, though make sure its safe to, cos no point in tagging out a <50% character and tagging in 100% character if he gets hit by a very damaging juggle or unblockable that'll leaving him with <30% *Tag when opponent is incapacitated (apart from being KOed...), on the ground or at a distance (sometimes). *After juggles is a good time to tag (unless okizeme is a better option *EVIL LAUGH*) *Only "safe" tag launcher Ogre should tag off is FC+3,3,N+3 (a good idea is to use the FC+3,3,N+3 as a juggle ender and tag of it [and then you can even tag slide in for more damage]) *1+3 throw is also pretty good. Though it has the tendency to be escaped a lot against Mishima's (1,1,2 jabs. Go figure) *When you just got your assed whooped and are lying on the ground, don't always use the tag recover, as it is slow to tag out easily punished. Use your discretion. -When they are tagging (provided they aren't being careful)- *Hit them with a powerful move eg. Standing 4 (WAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA). Be careful if they like to tag slide/crosschop (or deathfist...) *Juggle them *Unblockable (f,f+2/f,f,N+2/b+2/b+2+3) *When you busted them up, either okizeme them or tag out yourself (if you need/want to) -Tag Partners- Choose someone who is a different to Ogre (True Ogre is not BTW... he's just plain badass way better than Ogre ehehehhe). Anyway: -Ogre/Jin- Heh, yes I know everyone uses Jin and all, but he is an alright match with Ogre (apart from the fact [or assumption] that Ogre killed his mom...). He has some nice juggles, a reversal (which doesn't count for too much but at your local arcade it's ok sometimes... btw, can be useful when tagging in as the tag cancel isn't always 100% reliable and much better to eat a chicken than a 50% juggle...), and most of all: EWGF! Anyway, both have a decent poking game, Jin lacks low attacks sorta, while Ogre has a fair few, Ogre has a bunch of quick unblockables, Jin don't, Ogre pitbulls, Jin juggles etc etc. Anyway, I reckon Jin and Ogre work pretty well (Jin's supposed to go well with anyone anyway!). -Ogre/Yoshimitsu- I reckon this team works rather well together. Yoshi has great poking power, good juggles, lots of all-round stuff, helps make up for Ogre's weaknesses. Yoshi also has a stronger defense, and a bunch of tag launchers to make tagging safer. Quite the opposite playing styles in my opinion (pitbull and deceptive type stuff), prolly force your opponent to change tactics. Also, they are both good with the sidestep game, Yoshi with a decent sidestep (and his b+3+4) and 3 moves to boot, and Ogre with his massive "get a back throw when they miss a foward-moving-non-tracking move" sidestep. Uhhh, too lazy to put any more teams... (btw, True Ogre I reckon will do heaps better with Jin or Yoshi =D also cos he's waaaaayyy more powerful ehehhe) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ************************** * 10) PLAYING STRATEGY * ************************** Alright, I'm going to list some ways of playing Ogre and how to. These aren't necessarily the only ways to play Ogre or how to, just how I perceive them to be. Anyway, here they are: -Pitbull (Full-bore Offensive)- Best way to play Ogre. Never stop attacking, never let them attack! Attack, ATTACK, ATTTTTTAAACCCKKK!!! Do lots of poking and quick moves like 1,1/1,2/df+1,[2]/df+4/d+2 and stuff like that. Mix up the hit ranges to keep them guessing, and at the same time, sidetracked from attacking themselves. Keep the pressure on them, and if they try to tag, charge in and either keep bashing them around or take down the opponent before they have a chance to react. One thing to remember though, do not get carried away or cocky and end up getting hit everytime you try to charge in. Even though you are playing aggressive, make sure your attacks are well planned and placed, think about what you're gonna do next, making sure it has a good chance of working ie. hitting, them blocking, pretty much you not getting hit. Make sure you chicken buffer as any moves as possible (stuff like f+2... VERY EASY TO BUFFER A CHICKEN). Make sure you don't overextend yourself thought with slow moves that they can easily sidestep, once again, make sure the attack is well placed. If they keep blocking, throw in a throw (WAHAHAHAHAHA, funny :P), or do an unblockable like b+2 or f,f,N+2, and if the distance is right, maybe even a b+2+3, but don't do too often as you will be backdashed, EWGFed, and juggled to death. Anyway, don't get too crazy, cos a lot of his quicker moves are still slower than other peoples, but he also has long limbs, so his range should be used to compensate for his slowness. Play him at a moderate range and try getting in counterhits and interrupt with stuff like 1,1,2/uf+4/d+1 for setting up FC, which can also be setup better at moderate range. In short, make well planned and timed attacks and keep up the pressure. -Turtle (Defensive)- Now this is plain stupid. THIS IS PLAIN SUICIDAL!!! Ogre's defensive game is pretty much pathetic compared to anyone else, which is why pitbulling is his best playing style. However, if you SOMEHOW have mastered the timing of the b+1+2 and can pull it off whenever, then you will be able to stay on the defensive the whole match and kill your opponent at the same time - provided they only attack high... But that is practically impossible to do (getting the b+1+2 every time) anyway as the timing is very precise and you have to anticipate when your opponent will attack. Of course, you could still play like a normal turtle (the universal low parry helps a bit, but that's the only other defensive measure you have) and wait for your opponent to screw up then juggle him and stuff like that, though it's not advisable because as said before, Ogre has a pathetic defensive game, and hit juggles aren't exactly the most powerful in the first place, good, but not awesome. His best way of dishing out da damage is by mixing up, with custom strings, most prominently, powerful moves/combos of the FC, or just plain big hits (f+2,4... make sure to chicken buffer). If you still insist on turtling, use d+1 a lot, but anymore than that, well, you're on your own... -Poker (Offensive/Defensive)- Ogre has lots of good pokes and all, so you can sit there poking them a lot if you want, but I still prefer pitbulling where his power really lies, and the damage you can dish out. However, this still has its uses (especially against scrubs), usually against aggressive players (but pitbulling is good against them: The best defense is offense after all :) ie. if you're pitbulling them they can't do it back). I advise staying a bit out of throw range, and just poke them heaps so that they can't get in close. If they wiff or something, go for a juggle or a power hit (depending on recovery time). In any case, this is alright, but once again I would recommend pitbulling, as although Ogre is alright at poking, he's not exactly the best (like people with 8 frame jabs and the like). HOWEVER, even when pitbulling, there are going to be times the opponent gets his turn to attack (most attacks in Tekken have frame disadvantage when blocked, so smart ppl will know to starting jabbing back and stuff to interrupt... just don't bother trying to interrupt and Devil/Angel player after a blocked 1,1...), so you will need to poke at some stages to keep the opponent from attacking you non-stop. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ********************** * 11) TECH-BAITING * ********************** Hmmm, well, this section is essentially about anti-techroll tactics, such as doing the uf+4,uf+4,d+1,FC,f+2 but leaving off the FC,f+2 and if they techroll, run up to them and uf+4 hopkick them again... Anyway, I thought this could have some potential (like Ogre's easily techable juggles using f,f+1+2) so I decided to add this little section. I prolly won't get too much into the details, and besides, it's up to you to do want you want/need to do. -Setting Up- Note: The moves in () are the moves that you DON'T do but your opponent anticipates and so (hopefully) techrolls. uf+4, df+1_uf+4, (f,f+1+2) uf+4, uf+4, d+1, (FC,f+2) FC+3,3,N+3, 4 (Not techable, but some will still tech after they get hit away) FC+3,3,N+3, df+1_uf+4 (FC+3,3,N+3_f,f+1+2) Oh, and pretty much any other techable juggles but these ones are usually better as they end up at a nice distance. You can also just do a single move that juggles (df+2(CH)/uf+4) and let them go straight back down as if you totally screwed the juggle, and they do a techroll to avoid okizeme (though you might as well do the above stuff to dish out more damage and just as effective anyway, methinks, as it puts them at a ideal range). -Following Up- You need to anticipate if they will techroll. If they do, here are some moves that I found can be useful to punish them with. Note: For most of this stuff, you will hafta reposition yourself, such as running in, turning and stuff. BTW, this stuff isn't all guaranteed (you can techroll and recover crouching, so throws, apart from their escapes, aren't really guaranteed, but still effective to an extent nonetheless). Hell, I'm sure half the stuff can be blocked with good timing but anyway. BTW, you should take into account what tracks well and to which side and all. uf+4 FC,f+2 FC,df+2 f,f+2 b+2 f,f,N+2 Throw (Waning Moon if you can) WS+3,3,d+3,3... (Do an Instant WS for more effectiveness) UF,N+3 UF,WS+3,3,d+3,3... (The landing fromt he jump produces a WS) UF,FC,f+2 UF,FC,df+2 UF,Throw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ************************ * 12) Redeeming Ogre * ************************ Ok ok, first off, I'll explain what I'm talking about. Hopefully you realise by now that Ogre has been made into a pretty povass character now, as he's lost a lot of speed and damage on his moves. Not only have they made him no longer cheap, but they took it a step further and made him crap! Ahh hell. On the plus side True Ogre is mad but this is about Ogre anyway. -Advantages- He's pretty big but still counts as a normal sized character, though on some moves he won't go as high as a normal character (I think Hwoarang's sky rocket doesn't launch him very high). He also has a very good sidestep, which you should use a lot cos if you manage to avoid an attack, a lot of the time you will end up at their side or even back, making them vunerable to many attacks. However, it's a good idea to not get too happy on the sidestep, cos good tracking moves will hit you, so to counter this, you should make use of the sidestep cancel - (u,N)_(d,N),B. This will give you evasive AND blocking properties (though you usually end up moving sideways less). Other stuff that is still an advantage for him is that he still has a lot of "combos" that do a tonne of damage eg. WS+2(Clean Hit),4/FC,df+2, f,f+1+2/WS+3,3,d+3,3... (first 4 guaranteed if first connects). Also, Ogre can take a fair bit of punishment due to his high stamina (second highest I think). -Disadvantages- A lot of stuff here. His moves have been toned down, A LOT. His WS+2 is slower and can be escaped, his standing 4 is also slower (and less damaging), his uf+3,4 blocked don't have guaranteed followups anymore I don't think, and the list goes on. -Moves/Stuff to Use/Abuse- I've written a list of moves or chain of moves and stuff that you should abuse with Ogre that are the most effective and damaging. I've also put in an analysis about each on how to use it to really keep your opponent on their heels. Note: Stuff marked with a * mean that they aren't as good to use so much as the others but they still remain rather effective. 1,1* 1,2 df+1 df+4 d+4,[4] FC,df+2* FC+3,3,(d+3)_(N+3)* WS+2* WS+3,3,d+3,3... uf+3,4,3* SS+4* f,f+2* f,f,N+2 b+2 b+2+3* Custom Strings and Poking FC mixup Waning Moon Juggles Okizeme -Analysis- 1,1_2 Good to poke around with still, as they are quick and do some nice damage. Try mixing around with throws and stuff. It sux now that the 1,1,2 isn't guaranteed unless on CH (only the first 1 hits, the second gets blocked. On CH both 1's will hit and thus you can hit 2 for free). df+1 Good to use a lot, as long as you don't think they're gonna pull out a fast jab, cos although this is relatively quick, it still don't beat a jab. It's also safe if blocked, and if hit it leads up to a bunch on custom stringing and mixing up. And also this is irreversable, so from all views, I find it pretty safe and good. It gives a +8 frame advantage, so you can go for a throw straight after (WANING MOON! Though don't get predicatable as smart people will escape it after a while. You could try 1+3 once in a while, especially if you're low on health, that way you can tag out) as they'll have 4 frames to do something, so apart from Yoshi's flash (which doesn't stop throws mind you), the only thing I can think of to avoid it is to duck, but generally most people don't duck after getting hit. Though remember, mix it up, if you keep on trying to throw, they'll start ducking soon enough... and then you can df+4 them instead. Or even go for another df+1, +8 frame advantage, 14 frames to hit, meaning they have 6 frames to do something. Or if they stay standing and you did the df+1 instead of a throw, then only Yoshi's flash will stop it (though depends, cos even though Yoshi flash has time to interrupt, it doesn't mean it will connect, but it might), if they try to interrupt they'll get hit, it they stand there and block you'll be safe! Once again, a very good move to use, and safe as well (including irreversable as said before). Other than that, you can always go for a guaranteed d+1 and then into whatever from FC (including WS. BTW, infinity kicks can't be interrupted if you connect with d+1. Good for pressuring). df+4 Another good poking move. Quick, ranged, nice damage. Make sure to chicken buffer, so easy to do after all. d+4,[4] Good to mix around with df+4 due to the different hit ranges. Don't use the second 4 much unless the opponent doesn't know to duck under. If you do use the second 4, buffer a chicken. BTW, try not to overuse or you'll get lowparried. FC,df+2 If you're opponent isn't blocking low, definitely throw out. A guaranteed f,f+1+2 after dishes out some nice damage, helping to turn the tables in your favour (note: f,f+1+2 is reliable but there are other followups). Just don't get predictable as you will get blocked and punished. BTW, try not to always set this up with a d+1 as everyone knows whenver (True) Ogre goes into d+1 they will pretty much either go for infinity kicks or this. You can try doing this standalone, as in going into FC instantly and doing it real quick so as not to give any early warnings to your opponent. FC+3,3,(d+3)_(N+3) These will still do some good damage and you can mix around as well, although by now most ppl can tell the difference between the enders (I know I can =P). These used to be guaranteed on CH, not sure about now though. The FC+3,3,N+3 is a great juggle ender. WS+2 Although this is much slower and therefore harder to connect with, if you do it at the right time, you can take off A LOT of their damage. Don't always do this with the oh-so-obvious custom string df+1,d+1,WS+2 cos if they crouch, they'll still get hit, but we're looking for a CLEAN HIT to do some major shit, and if you hit with the df+1,d+1, they're usually too far away to get hit clean. Do this with and instant WS if you think they'll do something that isn't quicker than this and they BAM! Clean hit! Standing 4! (or Waning Moon, but standing 4 has shock factor :P). However, due to stuns being able to escaped and the bad initiation and recovery of this move, this shouldn't really by used in anything above intermediate levels of play. WS+3,3,d+3,3... Stick with the first four as they're guaranteed with after the first hits. This is another thing that's quite reliable as it does a lot of damage for just a 10 frame windup. Once again, don't get predictable with custom strings or d+1's and stuff, try doing instant WS and added with the 10 frames, it'll take about 13-15 frames to get going, so if you anticipate their moves (like if you know they'll go for a crouchdash or something) you can do a lot of damage. Also, if you know (or can see on reaction) you will get blocked, try to mix up the d+3,3... with df+3... so you don't get lowparried. uf+3,4,3 Although not as good as before, this still does good damage on all 3 hits and still gives you some advantage when blocked, 7 frames that is, allowing for some good stuff still, like a Waning Moon. Cos if you buffer the motion then it'll take like 12-14 frames leaving them with 5-7 frames to do something, and the only person who could do something is Yoshi (b+1+4 - 4 frames!), but unless they're really good, they prolly won't do it. You could do a d+4,[4] as that's also 12 frames, and so they have 5 frames to crouch, so if they aren't planning to, they prolly won't do it in time. Not really something to overuse though, more of a pressure move at the right times. SS+4 His only new move, sorta good, BUT NOT ENOUGH!!! Anyway, this is quite a nice addition apart from being the only one, as his sidestep game is very good and added with a low attack off it, it makes for some nice stuff. Of course, if you throw this out EVERY SINGLE TIME you sidestep, you will get lowparried or blocked. f,f+2 Good to use if you know they won't try to attack and they will just try to block cos most people won't react in time. This is good to throw out now and then to suprise them and then juggle after, but don't overuse cos it can be interrupted easily and escaped. Other then getting interuppted or escaped, this is pretty good to use as it is irreversable and doesn't get sidestepped too easily. But when you think about it, this means that it won't be too useful above intermediate level (but will sure whoops those scrubs' asses!). f,f,N+2 Similar to the f,f+2 in use as you should use it to catch people off guard. This is a bit slower (and easier to see - purple flashy stuff, think about it) but it can't get escaped like the f,f+2. However, don't overestimate its range cos he sorta uses his elbow (well, his hands positioned to stab but he ain't got a knife, so the elbow's the furthest part) and so the range is less than you may think. Good for a suprise and can be used a lot more than f,f+2 cos it's more reliable (as long as you don't get predictable, otherwise they'll jab you or something). b+2 Pretty much the same as above, 'cept this is a tad slower but it doesn't have a f,f,N motion which can give it away sometimes, so they sorta cancel. Good to use as a suprise attack. b+2+3 Use this when you anticipate your opponent stuffing up or if they sidestep too much and you know they won't be able to recovery and either hit you or get away in time. This has good range so it becomes quite useful and often catches people out. Also, can be used against an opponent getting up off the ground due to it's range, where you can remain at a safe distance and charge in to smack them (good against ankle kickers, and people who get up with a sweep of kick, just dash in, then out, they'll try to kick, do the unblockable, they get up, Ogre charges in, WHAM!) Alternatively, smack them around a bit with okizeme and then pull this one out. HOWEVER, I wouldn't advise using too often cos once you hit b+2+3 there's no turning back and a good opponent might just wavedash right up to you and EWGF your ass. If only this was cancellable... but it isn't, deal with it =P Custom Strings and Poking Use these a lot and mixup as they will keep Ogre on the offense where he belongs. Poke to keep the opponent away from you as even though Ogre should be played as a pitbull, he can't match up against people like Julia and her 8 frame jab which can juggle on CH (1~1,1) up close and personal, much less Kuma's 8 frame super long reach jab... So poke a lot and keep at moderate range and on the offense, and when you see the chance, start up a custom string and stuff, or juggle them if you can. Against better players, they will remain calm and try to interrupt you when they see the chance (which is not that hard because even I know practically every blocked move leaves the the person at a disadvantage, cept of course the Mishima's who can 1,1, 1,1, d+1, WS+4,4 all day long... ehehehe), which is why you generally shouldn't continue custom strings if they block the df+1 or other parts (like 1,1, which can be interrupted pretty easily after but not many people know to do so, and so they remain blocking). Of course, there are the occasional decent players who don't know that after blocking they usually have advantage, and they continue to block until you do a move with a long recovery. Hell, there are some real good players that don't even know what netsu is eehehhehehe. FC mixup Use this a lot as you can get in some major damage if they block wrong (WS+3,3,d+3,3 does heaps if they tried crouching, or alternatively, FC,df+2, and followups does lots if they just stand there). Also, remember to throw in a FC+4 now and then to keep them on their heels (some might be expecting infinity kicks, FC,df+2, or something, so don't be repetitive). Waning Moon A powerful throw, and powerful followups. Even though escapable, it's very reliable with a 1+2 escape (though for good players it doesn't matter that much as they anticipate) and the followups do some nice damage. Pull this out of your ass when they least expect it, though not really after a WS+2 stun anymore because 1) you shouldn't get doing gutpunch too much, prolly not at all against good players cos it'll be escaped and 2) a Waning Moon throw after a gutpunch stun is so obvious... Or you can try the HAN special - df+1 then Waning Moon (therefore df+1, df,DF+2+4). Juggles Amongst all the mixing up and shit, try to get in juggles, cos Ogre's juggles are decent enough and so you can do some ok damage. The uf+4 hopkick is pretty reliable but you need to anticipate cos when this is blocked I'm pretty sure you are at 10 frames disadvantage at least (can't remember, but I'm pretty sure that Mishima's 1,1,2 jabs connect after a blocked hopkick). The d,db+4 is good to throw out now and then (don't get predictable, it can be sidestepped easily and then you are in for it) because if blocked, yer safe, if hits, go for okizeme, if CH, go for a good juggle. Okizeme This is one of Ogre's strongest points (and even more so with True Ogre =D). USE IT! This is like Ogre's equivalent of a Mishima'a (E)WGF - though you can't do it over and over against an opponent in any situation like a bloody bastard :P. -General Strategy- This is apart from whatever playing strategy you are using. Use okizeme as much as possible. This still retains its effectiveness in TTT so abuse it, you can get in some good damage with this. Even just getting in one f,f,N+4 after each juggle is a good 20 points of damage! Avoid being on defense - "The best defense is offense" - because Ogre isn't too good on the defense. Nonetheless there are times you will be forced on the defense (blocked EWGF for example...) so get good at poking your opponent out of moves to get back on the offense. And Throws - Be cheesy and throw a lot, just no predicatably. And if your opponent gets out of your throws too much don't bother too much. If they duck them all the time uf+4 hopkick them =D. Mix in with custom strings. -Stuff (previously mentioned or not)- *If you connect with d+1, WS+3,3,d+3,3 can't be interrupted. *df+1 gives +8 frame advantage on a hit. Guaranteed d+1 (therefore go into WS+3,3,d+3,3 or do a near-guaranteed throw (they have 4 frames to do something. For Yoshi, no prob :P but his flash dun stop throws anyway eheh). *WS+4 (by iteslf, not with the second 4) gives +8 frames advantage, and you can buffer the Waning Moon motion (and 4) while recovering from the kick, so they opponent has 4 frames (again) to escape a Waning Moon. Though sometimes they won't be close enough for the throw to reach, so only do if you are sure. Mix the throws around sometimes as well so that they won't be able to escape every time. *If your opponent is smart and can actually block/parry the low kick of the infinity kicks (the third kick), then go for a mid :D. Though if you use the infinity kicks at the right time and when they'll hit (very easy, especially when you duck high attacks, cos it takes only 10 frames and then 3/4 guaranteed hits!). *Although uf+3,4 blocked doesn't have guaranteed hits anymore, you still get +7 frames of advantage. Same situation as a hit df+1 really, therefore, you can go for a throw pretty safely (5 frames for them to react). And Waning Moon buffers alright into the uf+3,4 pretty well I think (though not too sure, can't quite remember). Of course uf+3,4 isn't the best move to use anyway, easily interrupted and all. *You can try using a single 2 to set up throws in the same manner as a hit df+1, as a 2 (same speed as 1, 10 frames. But better recovery) on a hit will give +7 frame advantage and comes out quicker than a df+1, so you can use this to set up throws as well (oh yeah, custom strings as well. This applies for the other setup moves as well, just forgot to mention.). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ******************** * 13) CONCLUSION * ******************** Well, I would like to thank Renick for originally helping me with this FAQ (I have no idea why I even bothered writing this FAQ earlier this year either but oh well I did and I got help off him =P). Ogre has been toned down heaps since T3, however, he still has pretty damaging moves, though less effective (slower and less damaging). He has a HUGE sidestep, which is very good as he isn't a big character (but he doesn't always get floated as high :P) like his fatass friend True Ogre who has a gay sidestep and is a fatass as previously mentioned but he's way more powerful anyway =D. Armed with moves of different hit ranges (low,mid,high) and range (distance), Ogre has the ability to play a very good mixup game and fight at a variety of ranges. He has many good moves off the crouch, adding even more to his mixing up, while his okizeme really kicks some ass. Oh, and did I mention that he's in the second highest rank of stamina/endurance or whatever. If only he had a crouch dash (and thus wavedash) and EWGF and all... now if only True Ogre had that... anyway, in the end, Ogre is by no means the greatest of characters but he's still fun to play and if you really need to be kicking someones ass, use True Ogre =D Anyway... play Ogre skillfully and decisively and kick some ass (alternatively play True Ogre and destroy everyone... either that or serve as a jugglee for crowd pleaser juggles) - FEEL THE POWER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ***************** * 14) CREDITS * ***************** I would like to give credit and thanks to the following people: Renick, for helping me with this FAQ, his pretty good Ogre FAQ that helped me a lot (a couple of his things are a little outdated and I think he hasn't be bothered changing it ehehhehe), helping me with Ogre stuff now and then on the Tekken Zaibatsu forums. Hmmm, that was some time ago now, but anyway, oh well, TTT's getting sorta old and all the vets at Zaibatsu tend to be less in appearance now, damn those chit chat cafe FREAKS and their crap topics and shit!!! CAST THEM INTO THE COLD DEPTHS OF OBLIVION!!! =P Ug the Caveman, Catfish, Shukudai and anyone else for helpful information now and then and a good challenge as well. Any other Brisbane players that I don't hate cos you are cheapass and beat me with your cheapness because I don't play enough to get enough experience to beat your cheapass down! =D See, like Catfish, he's pretty good (he can do EWGF and all that consistently), but I can still beat him here and there cos he fights "honestly" so to speak, not like a cheapass! You cheapasses can burn! And just cos I use Bryan/Bruce a fair bit doesn't make me cheap hehehe Killing_Angel for getting a PS2 and TTT =D Both him and Dim Sim for letting me destroy them in TTT... shame that's about the only ppl I can destroy =P Catlord, for a couple Ogre juggles I borrowed from his combo compendium, and also for writing that bastard of a thing, now I don't have to get FAQs for each characters JUST to get some juggles! (Not to mention his has a LOT of juggles for each character while some FAQs have only a few, and his sez the # of hits, damage [for the most part] and difficulty to boot! Triple Lei, for bothering to format this to fit properly in a browser (even though I reformatted it a little - I just can't stand reading stuff that put single words on a line by itself :P) Cosmic Forge aka Dark Savant, for his awesome tag juggle (f,f+4, FC+3,3,N+3~5, f,f,N+1+2), and also his little trick on doing FC moves quicker (which led to me discovering an adapted version). And also cos he's got some great Yoshi info and Yoshi r0x0rs! Pete Hahn, for some good stuff from his Waning Moon FAQ that I put in this FAQ (mainly his "HAN" special). Castel and the Tekken Zaibatsu crew (as per usual with any FAQ made by an enlightened Tekkenite :P oh that's right, I'm a Royal Tekkenite now on zaibatsu, which means nothing due to those chit chat cafe shits and their Grand Tekken Psycho and Tekken Pimp Daddy or whatever, that's right Catfish, ppl like you! =P), for making Tekken Zaibatsu and its forums, (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/), cos that's where I get practically all of my Tekken info, and also those kickass juggle movies (which I took a few juggles from and added here :D). Namco, for making the Tekken series, which out of all the other fighting games I've played, is the one I'm best at :) (though I still suckass anyway) The good people of the world who make anime which satisfies my hunger for violence and destruction. Now only if everyone else would watch anime, then there would be no crime and war (look at Japan! hehe). The good ppl who make games like Diablo 2 and Counterstrike =D And Heavy Gear 2 was pretty cool as well probably because half the stuff was ripped from Anime (it was so blatantly obvious mon! hehehehe) but pretty cool anyway, just wish they had that big more variety of weapons instead of like 5 weapons of the same type just each one bigger than the next hehehehe God, for giving me strength - FEEL THE POWER!!! WAHAHAHAHAHAHA =D And YOU (as per usual with most other FAQS), and anyone else who reads this and actually thinks it's decent... also anyone who decided to read it because they THOUGHT it MIGHT be decent :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This FAQ was written by Ikazushi (ikazushi@rocketmail.com) EOF