Baek'd Potato - The Side Dish Guide

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NoodleHead
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17047
From: USA North Carolina
PSN: TastyPPJuice
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Baeked Potato as Side Dish ? The Unconventional Baek Guide


Level: Intermediate ? Advanced.


Disclaimer:
This thread is served as the side dish of Baek?s existing strat. By no means should it be used alone. For more information on the ?main course,? please refer to Baek?s T5: DR guide.


Introduction:
Despite having one of the shortest move lists, Baek is not a character for beginners. In the higher level play, Baek relies on many setups that involve swift FLA cancels. Baek?s FLA cancels are used in many places, such as juggles, pokes, as well as mix-ups.

?No shit. We already know that. So what is the purpose of this guide?? you say.

Well? this guide will show you how to do mix-up? in a brand new level.


Index
-Chapter I: Take guarantees first, and use deceptions second.
-Chapter II: Amplify your opponents? bad-habits.
-Chapter III: The deception: the setups, the mindsets, and the applications.


Noodle?s note: I have played Baek with completely different styles in several stages of my Baek?s lifetime. I have gone from purely aggressive FLA cancel mix-up into defensive punishing/delay traps. While writing this, I am steadily evolving into a more aggressive, but somewhat unorthodox/flashy FLA style. I am writing this guide because I want not only me, but everyone else appreciates the extreme freedom of Baek?s gameplay.


Before you read any further, make sure?
-You are able to iFLA cancel consistently from any moves.
-You have a good understanding with how to use a basic Baek, i.e. pokes, force blocks, okizeme, etc.
-You are familiar with my Baek?s Basic FLA Looping Guide
-You don?t mind playing Baek in a slightly risky path.


Good luck.

Last edited by NoodleHead on Oct 31st, 2007 at 16:18

NoodleHead
will touch u gently
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17047
From: USA North Carolina
PSN: TastyPPJuice
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Chapter I: Take guarantees first, and use deceptions second.

Baek is all about deceptions. However, to be successfully deceptive for your opponent, you have to do so while they are ?passively defensive.? There are several situations of such would occur:

1. Opponent finishes a safe move, but with noticeable recovery time. (bs -5~-7)
2. Opponent is punished several times in a row.
3. Opponent is by the wall, after few failed attack attempt.
4. You have shut down opponent?s pace with careful poking and setups.
?etc.

Among the situation listed, ?opponent is punished several times in a row? takes the least effort, but is the most effective. So before starting the game of deception, make sure to punish your opponent for half a round or more. Doing so will make your opponent cautious, thus fall into your pace.

Keep in mind that the game of deception is the worst against an opponent who is actively defensive. Against such with deception will have you severely punished to no end. Hence, punish first to get rid of such resistance, and then deceive your opponent carefully.

Here is the list of various good Baek?s punishers: (frame data taken from TZ)


Low jab parry: +12. Low kick parry: +16. Punch parry: +12.

1,1 (i10)
2,2 (i10)
ws+4,4 (i11)
d/f+4,4 (i12)
CH d+4,3,3 (i12)
f+1+2,4 (i14)
d/f+2 (i15)
b+4 (i16)
ws+3,4,4 (i16)
d+3,3 (i16. Do one kick only if u want to use it as a pseudo frame trap)
u/f~3+4~f (i16. If done w/o u/f~, then i17)
u/f+4 (i20)
d/f+3 (i22, used as a mid range whiff punisher only)

For more information, please check CD-DT's Punishment Guide.


Summary: If you see your opponent has bad block recovery or whiff, PUNISH, PUNISH, PUNISH!!! Once your opponent becomes passively defensive, the tide is yours!

Last edited by NoodleHead on Feb 6th, 2008 at 21:11

NoodleHead
will touch u gently
Joined: Mar 2001
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Chapter II: Amplify your opponents? bad-habits.

Everyone has bad habits. The only difference is how well they prevent those bad habits happen during the match. This is said, in a game that emphasizes in punishing, the one with fewer bad habits tend to win the match. To increase your likelihood of winning, not only it?s essential to reduce your own bad habits, but also expose your opponents?. There are several ways to expose your opponents? bad habits?

1. Take control of the pace, and play with the style your opponent hate the most.
2. Spend the first round looking at your opponents? attack patterns, if there is any.
3. Test your opponent?s reaction by doing repeat strings, and STOP DOING SO when the purpose is served.
?etc.

More detail below:

1. Take control of the pace, and play with the style your opponent hate the most.
Study your opponent?s fighting style and what style they have the most difficulty against. If your opponent is the hasty type, be actively defensive and learn the crush options against his patterns. If your opponent is the active turtle type, strike them with force blocks and careful poking in order to break them down. If your opponent is side-step happy, see his ss pattern between jabs carefully, and punish accordingly. If your opponent is the custom-string type, keep a good distance and juggle them when they come close.

2. Spend the first round looking at your opponents? attack patterns, if there is any.
Against the opponent that you have never played, it?s important to get used to his attack style as soon as possible. Spend a good first round observing his attack pattern carefully, and then device a strategy against their flaw. Observing your opponent does not necessarily mean to throw the round. In fact, it?s usually the case that you can test our your anti strategy against his/her attack patterns.

3. Test your opponent?s reaction by doing repeat strings, and STOP DOING SO when the purpose is served. *The Juice of the Chapter*
Doing conventional poke strings, kick strings, or big damage attacks might seem masterful in the eyes of scrubs. However, they are risky against the advanced players. Nevertheless, knowing how well your opponent knows to punish Baek allows you to play their knowledge against themselves. Here are some good examples:

1,2,3~f 1, or 1,2,3~f 1,2,3~d_u: This is a good string to make your opponent ?learn? that d+1_d+2 is good against your poke string. The chance is, your opponents will d+1_d+2 after you use them a few times. If they do so, STOP.

d+4,3,3,3: This is a good string to make your opponent learn that the last kick should be ss?ed. However, it?s unavoidable to eat a launcher afterward, so after you did d+4,3,3,3 the first time, use d+4,3,3 instead to see your opponent?s response whether they side step on the invisible last kick. If not, repeat until they do so. (Otherwise, you can exploit their lack of side stepping with easy FLA cancel games I shared few months ago.)

wd_cd+3: Baek?s class1 launcher. Doing it a few times as high crush will make your opponent aware and become defensive the next time when you approach with cd_wd motion. cd~ws+4,4 would also do the job, but not as well due to much less damage it delivers compared to the potential of cd+3.

d/f+1: OMG. This move is good in so many situations. It?s a mid poke, safe mid FLA mix-up ender, juggle starters on stun and standing from SLD (fd, fa). On block, your opponent will try anything possible, but they tend to follow certain patterns. Those who do standing-jabs will continue standing-jab post block for a few times, and those who d+1_d+2 would continue doing so as well. It?s also common to see the opponent does d/f+2 for the safe launcher, or even u/f+4 if they are crazy. Once you realized your opponent?s pattern post d/f+1 on block, plan the next step?


Summary: Observe your opponent?s bad habits. If they don?t have enough of them for you to take advantage, train them doing so as instructed.

Last edited by NoodleHead on Aug 12th, 2009 at 15:19

NoodleHead
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PSN: TastyPPJuice
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Chapter III: The deception: the setups, the mindsets, and the applications.

First thing first: It?s only deception if it?s a surprise. DO NOT, and again, DO NOT ABUSE IT.

In my opinion, the best part of the deception is not the massive amount of the damage it inflicts onto your opponent when works, but its existence that makes the deception-related moves safer from being punished due to the confusion factor.


3-1: Retaliation against bad habits:

By following the first two chapters into your play, you should have your opponent trained to attack cautiously (Ch. I), and waiting for your mistakes (Ch. II). This creates an opportunity for you to do the most part of the offense, as well as to set up your anti against his/her anti.

This section will cover the deceptions of the moves mentioned before:

1,2,3~f,1_1,2,3~f 1,2,3~d_u ? Opponent d+1_d+2
d+4,3,3 ? opponent side steps
wd_cd+3 ? opponent blocks and waits for punish
d/f+1 ? opponent retaliates



Details below:

1,2,3~f,1_1,2,3~f 1,2,3~d_u:
By now your opponent should be doing d+1_d+2 whenever you cancel your 1,2 into flamingo, and this is where 1,2,3~d_u shines. There are not many people aware the fact that the side-stepped flamingo version (d_u) can easily ss against opponent?s d+1, d+2, or even 1,2 jabs. This is true even when you ssr against their standing left jabs. If you are very sure your opponent will low jab you right the way, then you should have 1,2,3~d_u FLA b+4 ready. If your opponent does not have the fastest reflex, then 1,2,3~d 1,2,3~d into b+4. Finally, if you want to play safe, 1,2,3~ssr fla d/f+4,4 is good, and 1,2,3~ssr into b+1 will evade almost everything. On another note, u can also ssl and use b+2. Do make sure to hit opp w/ this move from the side. If opp is hit from the side w/ CH, u can proceed w/ another b+2 into an unescapable b+4 juggle launcher.

Result: b+4 juggle into a good 35%+ off juggle, and your opponent will be wary of d+1 Baek?s FLA again.


d+4,3,3, or any strings that ends with straight kick:
Your opponent should be side stepping the last kicks of every Baek?s strings. If not, then follow the FLA looping guide posted here. If you notice opponent starts side stepping, you should refrain yourself from finishing the whole string, but end with d+4,3 or d+4,3,3. While opponent is side stepping, you have many options. You can realign your opponent and grab, d/f+1 or move that tracks, or d+4,3,3 against opponent who you know do not have ss into low crush options.

Result: It will make your opponent much more defensive than they should have, making FLA throws much easier to land, though less likely to connect.(more likely to escape) In addition, they will probably side step less often. If this is the case, follow the FLA Looping strat for 1 loop at most, and end the string before the straight kick (no 3).


wd_cd+3:
This is the part where your opponent would prefer being defensive in fear of being class1 juggled. Wd_cd~ws+3~f_b_u_d becomes one of the most mind-fucking experience for your opponent. When your opponent is waiting for the move that never showed, instead with a FLA right in the face, this causes a brief-period of brain-fart. During this period, slower or obvious moves such as d/b+4, FLA throw, d/b+3,3, or an extra d/f+3~f become quite effective.

Update: against opponent who would jab you to nullify your mixups, cd_wd~ws+3~d_u will side step most of the linear attacks for guaranteed launchers.

Result: Opponent will become side step-happy. Snake dash to apply the mental pressure, making them even less aggressive, or wd_cd~fc d+3,3 to score chip damage.


d/f+1
Several retaliations will be discussed below:

Against standing jabbers: bdc into cd+3
Against d+1er?s: bdc into 1+2,4_b+4
Against u/f+4: On block, 1,1_2,2_1,2 into FLA or string. On whiff, d/f+2, or 1+2,4
Against 10 framer: 4 for the CH launcher, or d+4,3,3 for the CH bait.

Result: Makes your opponent defensive, thus allowing yourself playing aggressively.




3-2: Extra d/f+3~f_d_u study:

Speed is the key? or is it?

Many people consider speed as the most important aspect for the offensive play. However, some took it into extreme and consider it the ONLY way of the offensive play. Speed is indeed important, but only when the damage is guaranteed. When the damage is not guaranteed, then a more confusing tactic with lesser speed will have a much stronger impact to your opponent than the fast but predictable jabs.

From the FLA cancel strat I made a while ago, you learn how to improve your odds to safely FLA cancel into looping. However, once you are back in FLA, you are not guaranteed with any follow-ups. Many of Baek players (including old me alike) would immediately attack with mid or low options, in hope opponent will be panic and do something stupid?

Chances are, the opponent would not do something stupid, but would instead wait to punish you ?accordingly.? So let?s say, you spice the game up with something completely out of their mind...

Here is where the d/f+3~f comes into play. Sure, you SHOULD NOT DO IT EVERY SINGLE TIME, but if you do it when your opponent least expected, it will send him/her into a briefly confused state. This is similar to the situation of cd~ws+3~f madness, where it does not seem to make sense. In actual test against several opponents of mine, instead of having them jabbing me out of FLA, it actually slows down their reflex. Moves such as d/b+4, FLA throw, d/b+3,3 again become very useful here to catch off-guard opponent.

Update: an extra FLA d/f+3 against opp being actively defensive is still possible. Since opp would mostlikely to jab you or do quick attacks, the d/f+3~u_d will evade anything possible (except ss tracking attacks) and grant u a guaranteed FLA b+4 (standing or low jab whiff) or d/b+4. (against longer strings.)



3-3: Other side-dish worthy and applications:

f,f,n~3~f:
It serves as a great mind-fucker against opponent standing up from the floor in mid/long distance. If the distance is still a bit too far away, an extra FLA step will work just as fine.

(An idea that needs to find a setup starter?) When working in mid distance against a cautious opponent, it?s possible to bait him into jabbing you. FLA side step during his jab will earn you a guaranteed b+4.

u/f~n~ws+3~f:
Filthy?s famous hopping fake-out. Use it once a while and I ensure you it will score an easy FLA throw due to the confusing factors of multiple animations.

d/f+3:
By itself the move is decent, but when u combined w/ a mastered FLA WD control, this move is brokenly good. Learn how to control the FLA WD as well as ur opponents' range, and once u add the d/f+3 into play, u will be making ur opponent eating CH d/f+3 ALL DAY.


Summary: Punish opponent who followed your pattern, and use extra d/f+3~f when your opponent least expects. When the grounded opponent is standing up around mid to long range, use f,f~n+3~f_d/f+3~fx2.




Well, this is it for now, but I will update the last chapter when I come back from the trip. In the mean time, try them out, and have fun Baek?ing. Any suggestions on the guide would be greatly appreciated. (Also, I might post the FLA cancel thread here if u guys prefer it... in another chapter or something like that)



Special thanks to:
AV Kazama ? for discussing some of the Baek?s flaws with me, as well as my Baek?s transformation.
Filthy ? for sharing many baiting strategies with me, as well as influencing me back to a more aggressive Baek player.
Ironzen ? for finding many weaknesses of Baek when sparring with me, and being the best turtler around my area.
KuraiRyu and SpartaMA ? for being my frequent sparring partners and the unknowing test-object for my on-going side dish strat.
CD-DT - for the complete punishment list.
Sinjin ? for pushing me into playing Baek very differently from the defensive, boring play.
Castel ? for providing TZ and the frame data.
Namco ? for making DR a decently balanced game.

And everyone who contributed Baek strat. thread. Cannot do it without you guys!

-nood-

Last edited by NoodleHead on Mar 11th, 2008 at 06:25

av kazama
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Wow, very good guide Josh!

There's alot of stuff in there that helps some baek players 'think outside of the box' and help further his game.

good shit!
YoungManRiver
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
good stuff!

even though i'm using this to understand baek players to defeat them...

sense of humor +5~
mike
NoodleHead
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Don't worry, 90% of the Baek players in youtube (including the old me) do not use those strat at all. That's why it's there...

Part of me was thinking of using this as the secret guide for baek players only, but I decided to publish it instead. Because even if the non-baek players read it, they will end up fall into the "result" category. And as I mentioned in the guide:


...the best part of the deception is not the massive amount of the damage it inflicts onto your opponent when works, but its existence that makes the deception-related moves safer from being punished due to the confusion factor...
YoungManRiver
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
CONFUSION INDEED!

Tell me if i messed anything up please.

Just scroll down a few posts to baek


your efforts will be appreciated though~
mike
nf0x
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by YoungManRiver
CONFUSION INDEED!

Tell me if i messed anything up please.

Just scroll down a few posts to baek


your efforts will be appreciated though~
mike


I hate you.

Not really.

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Shimma
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by YoungManRiver
good stuff!

even though i'm using this to understand baek players to defeat them...





Me too.
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NoodleHead
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Update:
-low parry data
-d/f+3~d_u and cd_wd~ws+3~d_u.
D.e.f.c.o.n Ronin
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by YoungManRiver
good stuff!

even though i'm using this to understand baek players to defeat them...


lol, ill cosign that my man

btw, the +frames on low parry of punch im almost positive is more than +9. i think kick and punch low parries are like +14 and +17 respectively, or something around there.
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NoodleHead
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey Thx, Defcon. I have corrected the parry data.
Shotokan
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
What's up people, I've decided to pick up Baek again. However, I looked through Noodle's post (Great stuff btw), and noticed 1,2,3~ssr, b+1. I'm not certain, but I have a feeling this can be side-walked left, so maybe to counteract that, you could 1,2,3~ssl, b+2, I'm quite sure this would work, though the only problem is that b+2 is high.
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NoodleHead
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
yeah, since 1,2,3~fla ss is to bait the d+1ers, b+2 would be complete of no use against them.


Also, a successful ssl b+2 seems to grant you another b+2, which will place u at 4 o'clock position of ur opp's. U can follow with a free b+4 to get shit load of damage outa juggles.

Last edited by NoodleHead on Sep 1st, 2007 at 00:13

Shotokan
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Ahhh yeah, I forgot about d+1 deal. I don't see a problem in using 1,2,3~ssl b+2 everyonce in a while though in order to throw off your opponent.

The ssl b+2, b+2, b+4 juggle sounds nasty, I've gotta try that out.
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CD-DT
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#17 “Quote” Edit Post
ive decided to bring my baek back...mainly to beat a local hwo player but this guide is downright gorgeous. I have a site dedicated to the compilation of tekken strats/vids/etc

u been lookin to make a flash/movie skill portion and would love to use this material !
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ihatejin
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#18 “Quote” Edit Post
nice guide..i like this guide because its kinda risky and i love risky. i hate those uber safe mofos who make tekken so boring. by the way man, thanks for the private message noodlehead. im really not that fluent in FLA cancel just yet...practice practice practice. altough im really having trouble with turtlers... wacha!!!
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#19 “Quote” Edit Post
I read this sometime in the distant past, now reading it again I didn't remember most of it. Excellent stuff

I'll sure put this to good use.
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Darkxangel
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#20 “Quote” Edit Post
I guess i should not be in this topic then lol. I haven't played tekken in 2yrs n baek is one of my mains so i need some help. (Though im not completely stupid i know how to play the game good)
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