Mokujin Compendium: Specifics/Analysis

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Gandido
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1918
From: USA Florida
PSN: Gandido787
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
It's obviously notable that Mokujin differs in several aspects from most, if not all of his character incarnations. Exactly what is noticeable and what isn't is what is going to belong into this thread. This is going to be somewhat of a large project since I want to try into as detailed as possible.

Let's start!

Raven - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=3189525

Bruce - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2877869

Heihachi Mishima - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771349

Roger Jr. - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771321

Craig Marduk - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771294

Steve Fox - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771684

Julia Chang - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771721

Armor King - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771625

Kuma/Panda - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771778

Wang - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2773196

Jin Kazama - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771756

Christie/Eddy - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2771362

Devil Jin - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=2763110

Jinpachi Mishima - http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...;postid=3189144

Jack-5 - Open stance. Fists are pointed upward, moves up and down with feet on the ground.

Pros:

* Punches being lower to the ground: d/f+1112 combos fully in the wall and allows for oki on their techroll afterwards.
* Loss of 'fatness' allows him to sidestep better.
* Appears to crush better somewhat. Will further test.
* Loss of fatness causes some hits that would hit grounded on Jack to miss.
* Punches being lower to th ground: hcf+2 hits opponents moving on the ground more consistantly.

Cons:

* Obvious loss of range.
* 1+2 never hits grounded.
* MGF (hcf,df+1) never hits grounded.


Staples:
- d/f+2, f+2, f+2, f+1+2,2
* ... w! d/b+1112
- ff+2, U/F+4, f+2, f+1+2,2


King - Hops back and forth.

Pros:
* f+3 seems to hit grounded (in specific occasions that also work with King) more often.
* Doesn't growl for absolutely everything.

Cons:
* Noticeable arm range loss. Harder to connect dashing jabs for iSW combos.
* Arm range loss: can't connect 3 jabs into f+221 for wall carry.
* iSW harder to connect in combos.
* Punches lower to the ground: f+22(1) <- tends to miss last hit sometimes.

Staples:
- WS1+2_u/f+4, f+22, 1, iSW (two jabs work, but due to less range, this should be the staple)
- FC d/f+2, f+3, 1, ffn 1, iSW
- CH d/b+3, WS4, d+3+4,2

Notes:
*

Lei - moves all over the place, starting to the right.

Pros:
* Longer jab range; wallcarries are easier.
* Easier to land ff+3,4 on juggles (it is for Lei too in DR but Moku seems to land it more often).
* Harder to see what he is doing.
* Magic 4 combo easier to connect

Cons:
* (update later)

Staples:
- CH4 ffn1 ffn1 ffn1 ffn1 ff34
- d/f+2_u/f+4, ffn2, ffn2, ffn1_2, ff+34
- Clean d/b+4, WS2, 1, ffn1 (ff34_ffn1 into ffn12 for wall carry)
- Clean d/b+4~SNK (snake) 22>2

Notes:
* Lei has no generic d+4.


Feng - Open stance. Right arm close to his body; left, out. Leans out a little bit.

Pros:
* (update later)

Cons:
* Less punch/kick range: Wall carry with 2 jabs, 11, d/b+3 (misses).
* Harder to hit d/b+1+2,2 juggle enders.
* SS4 (off SSR), d/f+1, f+21 <- f+2(1). The one tends to miss on SSR unless you walk up for the d/f+1 (in which cases, d/b+1+2,2 enders always work).

Staples:

Notes:
* Feng's generic d+4 is d+3+4 (but when they are on the ground, you get a stomp.)


Kazuya Mishima - (similar to Baek) Arms out in front of him. Bounces at a slow controlled pace.

Pros:
* d/f+3 still hits grounded.
* Extra jab in wall carries (TP, f+12, dash f+1, dash f+1, <dash f+1>, dash f+12) seems to be easier.

Cons:
* d/b+4 hits grounded less.
* Less range on legs.


Lee Chaolan - Hands close to his body. Bounces rapidly in a stationary place.

Pros:
* 211 juggle ender seems to hit more consistently even in juggles that normal Lee can't end them with.

Cons:
* Legs seem shorter. Harder to hit f,n,34 after OC b+4

Staples:
- d/f+2_u/f+4, 4, b+1,1fn 12ms 211 (can still miss but more consistent)
- d/f+2_u/f+4, 21, f+12ms 211

Notes:
* Input for Lee's generic d+4 is d/b+3+4 (d+3+4 is his kick unblockable).


Dragunov - Hands play like a mantis. More footwork than A.K and moves a bit to the side if idle for a while.

Pros:
* Possibly less 'fat'. Might be able to sidestep better.

Cons:
* None of his standard juggles seem to work.
* Huge loss in leg range.

Staples:
- d/f+2, 21, 213 <- allows for dash up stomp that should hit low on their techroll.
- qcf+2, f+1+2_u/f+4, d+44, d+4 <- same. Allows options.


Ganryu - Very open stance. Has a 'crumpled up' apprearance with his arms next to his knees. His hands are open and is lower to the ground than Devil Jin

Pros:
* Can STILL get off 1, 21, 21(2)1 f+1+2 off WS2 by dashing for the first 1.
* Loss of 'fat' lets him sidestep more things.

Cons:
* Range on d/f+1/d/f+2 severely decreased. Limits his poke game.
* Range on d/f+3 slightly decreased (Must test further).
* Range on moves in general: can't do as much damage off d/f+2

Staples:
- WS2, ff1, 21, 21(2)1, f+1+2
- d/f+2, dash 1, 21, 2(1)2, f+1+2


Asuka Kasama - Hands down next to her stomach, close together, one raised a bit more than the other.

Pros:
* f+2 hits grounded (kinda weird... like Kaz d/f+3 where it usually hits on the ground if you end a juggle, they stay on the floor and it hits grounded always)
* f+2 also hits grounded right after d+2 juggle ender due to bigger punch range.
* Leg range somewhat improved: d/b+3 hits backrolls after d+2 ender.

Cons:
* (update later)


Hwoarang - Bounces in place on both feet. Hands and arms are both pointed upwards.

Pros:
* d/f+1 combos after u+3+4 more consistently, even off axis.

Cons:
* (update later)

Staples:
- u+3+4, d/f+1, 2 33ff f+4,3 (someone fix the notation please)
- d/f+2, 242 f+3~u/f+343
- b+3, 3~4 - 1234_ff24f+34_d/f+3+4
- CD4 backdash 3~4 ff24f+34
- JFSR 3+4, 3~4F, 3+4, 33f 33f+43

Notes:
* Input for his generic d+4 is d+3+4.



Bryan Fury - Open stance. One hand close to body, other hand; out, closer to his head.

Pros:
* (update later)

Cons:
* Noticeable loss of arm range.
* d+3,2 <- 2 often whiffs during combos.

Staples:
- u/f+4, d/b+2, d/b+2, f+1, ff+2
- u/f+4, d/b+2, 1, ffn 1, ffn 1, ff d+3,2 (still works, pointing it out)
- f,b+2, f+1+2, ffn 1, 3212

Notes:
* Generic d+4 input is d/b+4. d+4 does not crush highs as good, although it gives you +1 on hit.

Yoshimitsu - He has a stick.

Pros:
* (update later)

Cons:
* d/f+111 harder to hit from Sword Sweep (FC d/f+1)

Staples:
- FC d/f+1, d/f+111 (close range)
- FC d/f+1, f+33 (close range)
- FC d/f+1, u+1+2, 3 (when first two won't hit)
- u/f+3, f+1, b+1111, b+1, f+3+4
- d/f+2, b+11111. b+11111, f+3+4


Anna Williams

Pros:
* FC f+2 seems more consistent at hitting grounded.

Cons:
* FC d/f+2 into FC d/f+4 juggles only work when slightly/very off axis and/or extremely close.

Staples:
- FC d/f+2, FC f+2
- d/f+2, f+2, d/f+3,2, d/f+314
- d/f+2, d/f+3,2, u/f+133+4 <- for wall carry


Nina Williams

Pros:
* (update later)

Cons:
* 141 juggle enders are more inconsistent.

Staples:
-

Notes:


Ling Xiaoyu

Pros:
* Punch range increased.

Cons:
* Seems to be able to sidestep less things.

Staples:
-

Notes:


Baek

Pros:
* (update later)

Cons:
* (update later)

Staples:
-

Notes:


Lili

Pros:
* (update later)

Cons:
* (update later)

Staples:
-

Notes:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a bigger note; to contribute to this thread, post in Dinosaur's Juggle Queries thread. Not necessarily juggles always, but as much as you can. The point would be to keep this thread less cluttered.

Thanks to everyone for contributing, mainly:

TheDinosaur
combot-killer
SymBiosis
insomnotek

More to come!

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 21st, 2007 at 06:31

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
combot-killer
Former staff member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6146
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
GANDIDO, edit if you like. get this list right!

-peace-

Last edited by combot-killer on Oct 19th, 2006 at 21:45

Signature Originally posted by USMCOgre
I see that RMK FendRhodes tried to answer your question, which is funny because he has neither a wife nor any life experience with anything other than working at wal mart. I just put him on ignore so I can't see what he said, but I'm sure it's a stupid one line fail at being funny.


Gandido
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Posts: 1918
From: USA Florida
PSN: Gandido787
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Devil Jin - Very open stance. Slightly hunched forward, but not too much like Ganryu and not as uptight as Jack-5.

Pros:

* Punches being lower to the ground: makes ff+3,1, bf212 juggle enders more consistent.
* Punches being lower to the ground: 2+4 throw into bf212 > catches people that stand up and guard much better than with normal DJ.
* Movement is less detectable due to loss of wings: makes mixup even harder to see.
* Loss of wings lets him sidestep some things better (trust me, I've tested this)

Cons:

* Leg range reduced slightly: harder to hit with Hellsweep and d+4.
* b+4 seems to hit grounded even less.
* Punch range reduced: harder to hit 124~3 juggle enders.

Staples:

- CD4, ff+1+4, d/f+1,2 ff CD4
- WS2_EWGF, ff+31, d/f+1,2 ff CD4
- WS2, ff+31, bf2,1,2_d2_4
- WS2_EWGF_CHb+4, bf212, d/f+44
- CH b+4, bf212, f+124~3

Notes:
* Command for Devil Jin's generic d+1 = d/b+1.

General things to know:

- After any d/f+1,2 combo ender, hellsweep is guaranteed.
- CD mixups are powerful so wavedash into it.
- bf21 tracks both directions and is safe against 10 framers (8 framers can ssr and jab, although risky.)
- EWGF. Use it.
- ff+2, d/f+1, d/f+4, bf21 and u/f+4 are all great mids. Use them.
- 112 for 10 frame punishment. Very hit confirmable.
- EoD throw keeps even the biggest turtles on their feet, and has a guaranteed d/b+2 after. Use it sparingly.
- d/b+2 high crushes and knocks down on counterhit.

Short Movelist:

1) EWGF
2) HS
3) bf21
4) ff+2
5) WS2
6) d/f+4>4
7) 11>2
8) throws (mainly EoD)
9) d/b+2
10) u/f+4

Punishers:

10f: 11>2; 22
11f: f+4, WS44
13f: d/f+4>4
14f: EWGF (perfect); d+3+4
15f: EWGF, bf21
16f: b+4; ff+2

Deathfist: ff+2 (all ranges, strict timing); DEWGF (all ranges, strict timing), d/f+4 (all but max range); bf21 (close-mid range)
Kuma ff+2: DEWGF

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 24th, 2006 at 00:46

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
SymBiosis
White Trash Paul
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3280
From: Canada
PSN: centenza69
XBL: cenlenza
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
about the stances of mok,that was posted a fakkin while ago by insomno

Anna - hands out in front of her body, rotating slowly.

Asuka - hands down next to her stomach, close together

Beak - (similar to Kazuya) arms out in front of him. bounces at a fast pace.

Bruce - hands high up; knees, raised. bounces on the tip of his toes.

Bryan - open stance. one hand close to body, other hand; out.

Christie - dancing.

Craig - shoulders close to head. moves slowly. arms higher than Beak/Kaz but somewhat similar.

Devil Jin - very open stance. taller than Ganryu. not as uptight as Jack5.

Feng - open stance. right arm close to body; left, out. leans out more.

Ganryu - very open stance. shorter than Devil Jin. hands "open."

Heihachi - very upright. right arm close to body; left, out.

Hwoarang - both arms out in front, but close to body. bounces on both feet.

Jack5 - open stance. rigid. low.

Jin - (similar to Paul) both arms out in front, but close to body. elbow placement is farther out than Pauls. moves more than Paul when idle.

Julia - stance looks normal (ie paulish) but more open. also, jabs very stangely.

Kazuya - (similar to Beak) arms out in front of him. bounces at a slow controlled pace.

King - bounces back and forth.

Kuma - hunched over.

Lee - hands close to body. bounces fast.

Lei - walks side to side.

Ling - one knee is bent. hand placement is traditionalish.

Law - bounces foot to foot.

Nina - hands close to body (boobs), moving back and forth quickly.

Paul - (similar to Jin) both arms out in front, but close to body. elbow placement is closer to body than Jins. moves less than Jin when idle.

Raven - head looking down. body facing toward side with hands in front of his stomach.

Roger Jr. - has a tail. rotates hands in front of body.

Steve - sways back and forth quickly when idle.

Wang - foot that is farther out is pointed up.

Yoshi - has a sword.

and for the newcomers

dragunov : stances with arms who remind me of the mantis,a bit jiggling on place

lili: one arm in the air,the other near the waist,legs spaced

AK:lil foot work on place,hands moving in front of him.
Signature if i could pray with my cock, i'd be a much more religious man -Tyrion Lannister
Gandido
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Posts: 1918
From: USA Florida
PSN: Gandido787
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Craig Marduk - shoulders close to head. Moves slowly. Arms higher than Beak/Kaz but somewhat similar except the fact that he has both arms completely stiff.

Pros:

* d/f+3 properties: picks off people who stand up and guard from the floor.
* d/f+3 properties: combos off d/f+1, u/f+1+2 and D/F+3,1 (a la 5.0).
* Sidesteps better, as it is less 'fat' than Marduk.

Cons:

* Range is highly reduced.
* Combo damage only slightly reduced due to range.
* Wall carry combo hits less from max distance launchers.
* No defined combo after ff+1+2 that I know of.
* No good damage off WS3.

Staples:

* d/f+1_ff+1_D/F+3,1_u/f+1+2, d/f+312 VTSC ff+1+2
* ff+1, u/f+1+2, d/f+3,1, f+2+4 <- stylish!
* d/f+1_ff+1_D/F+3,1, 12 VTSC 12 VTSC 12 VTSC w! 123_d/f+3123

Wall Combos:

- d/f+3123 (seems to work better with Mokujin)
- 123
- d+2,4

Notes:

* The d/f+312 in the specified juggles could be subsituted for d/f+31, ff 12 VTSC ff+1+2 for max damage.
* Marduk has no generic d+4.
* Command for Marduk's generic d+1 is d/b+1.
* Marduk has no generic WS4. His is 12f and knocks down.

General things to know:

- d/b+3+4 can be used to replace backdashing in some situations, oftenly resulting in mounts when they throw out a lot of stuff.
- d+4 is still a solid poke, albeit a little bit less ranged than normal Craig.
- ff+2 is a good high poke. (0 or -1 on block)
- 1+2 (push) has it's uses.
- ff+1, although slow, has good tracking vs. SSL.
- SS1+2 has guaranteed damage after it hits, albeit its range is drastically reduced.
- If you ever duck anything, you can try and punish with FC d/f+4 as a low.
- d/f+31d+2 is a GREAT mid, that hits as a full NC for some nice damage.

Short Movelist:
1. d/f+1
2. ff+1
3. ff+2
4. d/b+3+4
5. Mount
6. d+4
7. d/f+31d+2
8. D/F+3,1
9. d/b+2
10. d+1

Punishers:

10f: 21

Deathfist: f+1+2; d+4; fff+2

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 23rd, 2006 at 07:44

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Roger Jr. - Look for a tail. Rotates hands in front of body.

Pros:

* Better range in legs and punches, making his poke game much more solid.
* Throws obviously reach further: allows Roger to have Giant Swing/DDT mixup.
* ff+2 hits grounded 80% of the time (can't hit FU at the head and FD at the feet).

Cons:

* Harder to hit d/f+4 after tail sweep and SS+4 to allow for juggles.
* u/f+33 does NOT combo in wall after d/b+3.

Staples:

- FC f+2_u/f+4, f+1, 1+2, 123
- FC f+2_u/f+4, d+1+2,1+2,2
- SS4_d/b+3, d/f+4, 1+2, 123
- f+43, 1, ffn 1+2, 123

Wall Combos:

- w! f+12_f+121, d/f+1+2 (cleanhit)
- w! u/f+33 (high wall splat or close to the wall splats only)
- d/b+3, w! d/b+4343
- w! AGF (clean)

Notes:

* Roger's wavedash is not done as with Mishimas. I'll post the exact notation soon.
* For d/f+4 to hit after d/b+3, there has to be a slight pause.
* For d/f+4 to hit after ss+4, it has to be done right away.
* d/b+3 staples don't work well on Jack. You can just do d/b+3, d/f+4, 123.

General things to know:

- Roger is a poor-man's Mishima in terms of getting his 50/50 to work, however he has just about the same damage output from his low hit as from his mid (hopkick)
- d/f+4 is probably his best move alltogether. 12f mid.
- f+1 gives +3 on block. You can fish CHs with this on overly aggressive people.
- d+4 has exceptional range. Use it for low pokes/high crush.
- Giant Swing/DDT is GREAT with Mokujin's added range. No reason to use any other throws (except Tombstone, for sheer damage).
- SS+4 works like Feng ss+4, except that it isn't so fast. It does duck all the same mids though.
- f,n,1 on block guarantees a dash up U/Fn4 launch, AGF, etc.
- f+43 can now be used as a launcher. Jabs reach after it. Use as your main whiff punisher.

Short Movelist:

1) d/f+4
2) d+4
3) d/b+3
4) ff+2
5) f+1 and variants
6) u/f+4
7) ss+4
8) f,n,1
9) f+1+2
10) WS33
11) f+4,3

Punishers:

8f: 12
10f: f+12
12f: f+12; d/f+4
14f: d/f+1+2
15f: u/f+4

Deathfist: ff+4 (all ranges); ff+2 (close-mid range)
HS: u/f,n,4

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 21st, 2007 at 06:49

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

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Gandido
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Heihachi Mishima - Very upright. Right arm close to his body; left, out.

Pros:

* Telegraphs some moves less, like b+2/d/b+2.
* EWGF seems to crush better.

Cons:

* FC d/f+4 doesn't seem to hit after certain juggles where it normally would.
* CD441 juggle enders hard to hit in the harder juggles.
* Obvious leg and punch range reduction.

Staples:

- d/f+12, f+1, CD441, d+1
- EWGF EWGF d/f+11, bf21
- EWGF EWGF CD441 d+1
- ff+2, EWGF, CD441 d+1
- EWGF EWGF f+1, f+1b+2f+1

Wall Combos:

- CD444n44 (depends on how close to the wall you are once you start HSs in juggles)
- f+4,d+4
- D+1, FC d/f+4

Notes:

- Heihachi's generic d+1 is performed with d/b+1
- Although not impossible, EWGF EWGF f+1, f+1, CD441 juggles for wall carry are insanely hard to do due to his reduced range.
- d+1 juggle ender is insanely EASY to hit as Mokuhei. Just mash it out

General things to know

* His oki game is based around d+1/FC d/f+4_CD4_stomp mainly. After ending combos with d+1, you should pick one of these options.
* He also has corner/midscreen side/back catches with d/f+1+2.
* He is by far the best punisher in the game.
* b+2 is 0 on block, tracks sidestep really well, goes forward a fair distance, and gets a free combo on counterhit.
* d/b+2 crushes highs and is safe from while standing launchers from a distance.
* f+4/ff+3/bf21/u/f+3,4 all give frame advantage on block.
* ff+2 goes under highs and mids and gives stupid damage.
* d+1 is the perfect spacing mid.

Short Movelist:

1) d/f+1,2 (punishment only)
2) EWGF
3) CD4
4) ff+2
5) b+2
6) f+4
7) ff+3
8) d+1
9) d/b+3
10) 1+2

Punishers:

10f: 112; 22
11f: WS44
12f: 1+2 -> run stomp; f+1+2 -> b+1_:qcf+2_d+1)
13f: d/f+1,2
14f: EWGF

Deathfist: DEWGF (all distances); bf21 (closer ranges); d+1 (all distances); qcf+2 (all ranges)
Hellsweep: DEWGF; CC d/f+1,2
Nina WTF, etc: ff+2; DEWGF; CC TP

Last edited by Gandido on Apr 6th, 2007 at 20:24

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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PSN: Gandido787
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Christie/Eddy - Dance around both ways. To tell them apart, throw the other guy.

Pros:

* Retains Eddy's punch range. Can wall carry with d/f+11 x 3 (last hit on third might miss though.)
* Can still do full combo off getup 3 (KND 3, qcf+3, b+3>3, 2f+3)
* Can do ff+43, f+3+4, combos off hits such as d/b+1+2
* CH FC d/f+4 combos still in.

Cons:

* Can not do Christie's RLX 4~3 1, 13, 2f+3 combo consistently (only works off axis)
* Last hit in normal relax low hit combo will often whiff (a la Christie)

Staples:

- CH FC d/f+4, RLX 1 4 4 3+4
- CH d/f+2 ff1, b+33, 2f+3
- d/f+2, f+3+4
- d/f+2, ff qcf+3
- RLX 3~4, 1, b+33, 2f+3
- RLX 4~3, RLX 1 4 4 (3+4) <- randomly will hit
- d/b+1+2, ff+43, f+3+4, 1244 <-easy variation
* u/f,n4, b+33 f+3+4 1244

Wall Combos:

- d/f+11, b+3+4 (catches tech one side I think?)
- u/f+3+4
- f+214

Notes:

- Christie/Eddy d+4 is not generic but it still high crushes and it hits grounded.
- Christie/Eddy have no generic WS4. They can't punish -11 while crouching except with low jabs.

General things to know:

* d/f+2 is your best mid hitting move. It tracks all but SWL, has a guaranteed followup on normal hit, and you get a juggle on counterhit.
* u+4 covers a lot of distance and it crushes lows. You could try doing the U/F+4 buffer method to make it come out about a frame or two faster.
* FC d/f+4 is a great low to use when you duck highs and you have little time to go into RLX.
* SS+4 has two parts: the second hit on block gives you +1 at the very least.
* They can't sidestep very well due to their dancing, but b+2 and d/f+1+2 should take care of evasiveness.
* HCF+1+2 (Rodeo) does a LOT of damage. Learn to use it.
* RLX mixups are impossible to see on reaction. Use them for wakeups.

Short Movelist:

1) d+4
2) ss+4
3) d/f+2
4) u+4
5) d/f+11
6) RLX 3~4
7) RLX 4~3
8) b+3>3 (CH hunting)
9) RLX f+3+4
10) d/b+3,4 (NC)


Punishers
9f: b+1+2
10f: 12
12f: 1+2? (possibly 10f. Test?)
13f: d/f+11
14f: d/f+2 -> f+3+4_ff, qcf+3

Deathfist: d/f+3+4 (need to test with Moku), ff d/f+2
HS: u/f,n,4

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 26th, 2006 at 04:10

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

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Gandido
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Armor King - Has a little bit of footwork going and moves his hands in front of him, but not as much as Dragunov.

Pros:

* Doesn't get hit by some juggles that fit the bigger character category.
* Appears to have a slightly better range on his '2' punches.
* No growling.

Cons:

* Loss of 'fatness' causes 1 to have less range in juggles after launch.
* Loss of 'bigness' causes f+1+4 to whiff on occasions where A.K. would hit it.
* Huge loss of leg range. Lots of lows will whiff on places where A.K would have hit.
* Overall damage potential decreased.

Staples:

- u/f+4_DU, b+1, ffn1, ffn1 -> (ffn1->iSW_ffn12->f+1+4)
- DU DU, ffn1 ffn1 ffn1 iSW_f+1+4
- WS1, d/f+1, f+1, ffn1 ffn1 iSW
- u/f+4_DU_CH b+1, 1+2,2 GS

Wall Combos:

- d/f+2, d+3+4
- d/f+213
- f+2,1 (main)
- CD1
- f+1+4

Notes:

- You can still hit some of his older staples from a slight off-axis angle, usually to the right (SSR, u/f+4, b+1, 1+2,2 f+1+4 usually will hit.)
- After CH b+2, CC12 ALWAYS hits, whereas with just A.King it will usually whiff the second hit.

General things to know

- b+2 is a great mid that gives some advantage on block. On counterhit it guarantees CC12.
- fff+3 is great with AK. If they don't backroll, free u/f+1+2.
- Giant Swing/DDT_iSW mixup. Use it. Lack of solid lows make people not want to duck vs. AK, but be careful because his mids aren't too damaging either.
- Make up parlor tricks on the spot. AK is a 'gimmicky' character that doesn't have too much to work with.
- CD1+2 is high, but unblockable. If done properly, there shouldn't be a delay, and it hits much better this way.
- CD3 is also high and unblockable, but causes wall splat.
- d/f+2 randomly high crushes and is a good counterhit tool, since you get a guaranteed d/b+4 afterwards, or f+4 into oki.
- d/b+4 is a sneaky high damage low that people need to learn to react to.
- d+3+4 is a good low, albeit not giving any frame advantage.
- d/b+3 has some gimmicks after it that work. Do a U/F+4 when they are techrolling and they get hit in the back, for a guaranteed BT 4 after, and sometimes a guaranteed BT 3 which causes a stun if they tried to straighten themselves.
- CD+1 works well for punishing very far away whiffs, and has a guaranteed f+4 afterwards.
- Multithrows: USE THEM. Visit the AK movelist to find them.

Short Movelist

1) b+2
2) 21
3) d+3+4
4) GS/DDT_iSW
5) d/b+4
6) fff+3
7) DU
8) f+1+4
9) d/f+1
10) d/f+4
11) d/f+2

Punishers:

8f: 12
10f: 21
12f: d/f+4 (far)
13f: d/f+1 (far)
14f: f+1+4, DU
15f: u/f+4;

Deathfist: f+1+4; ff+4, b+3
HS: DU, U/F 4

AK has a lot of misc. stuff: http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...?threadid=96002

Check for details.

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 21st, 2007 at 06:43

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Steve Fox - Sways his body left and right when still.

Pros:

* ff,n,2 seems to hit siderollers much more consistently.

Cons:

* Less punch range makes certain FLK juggle enders miss.
* Less punch range makes a lot of DCK1 enders miss, most notably:
- launch, DCKf+2 DCK1, d/f+121 FLK~DCK1 <- DCK1 misses

Staples:

- DCK2_CH d/f+2, d/f121, f+21, FLK 1 ALB2 <- less damage but most consistent.
- DCK2_CH d/f+2, b+1,1, ff121 FLK 1 ALB2 <- also works, better damage.
- DCK f+2, DCK1, fb11>21 <- the delay is necessary for it to work with Mokujin.
- u/f+2, 21, f+2,1 FLK 1 ABL2

Wall Combos:

- f+2,1 FLK2 (clean)
- FLK 11d/u1
- d/f+1+2
- 1212 ext DCK for pressure after.
- DCK 1+21212121212

Notes:

* Command for Steve's generic d+1 is d/b+1
* Steve has no generic d+4.
* WS12 is Steve's WS4.

General things to know:

- 3/4 sways crush highs for the most part and even some mids during startup. To go into DCK from them, hold down the button then tap forward near the end of the animation.
- ALB mixups are still pretty good.
- d+2,1 is your best low hit, since you can delay the hits, people might be picky on punishment.
- Near the wall, you can mix up with QCF+1~FLK (to make it safe) and d/b+3,2.
- If your back is against the wall, b+3/4 into b+1+2 (throw to your back) causes max distance wall splat where QCF+1 is guaranteed.
- WS12 has more reach than the typical WS4 so you can punish d+4s a lot easier.

Short Movelist:

1) d/f+1,2
2) d/f+1+2 (punishing only)
3) 121
4) d+2,1
5) DCK 2
6) 3/4 sways
7) QCF+1
8) ffn2
9) d/b+3,2
10) throws

Punishers

8f: 112
10f: f+112
13f: b+1; d/f+1,2
14f: ff+2; d/f+1+2

Deathfist: d/f+1+2; ff+2, ff,n,2 -> d/b+2
Kuma ff+2: ff,n,2
Hei ff+2: ff,n,2
Hellsweep: u/f+2
Nina WTF, etc: u/f+4

Last edited by Gandido on Jan 25th, 2007 at 08:10

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Julia Chang - Stance looks normal (like Paul's), but more open. Also, her jabs look different from the rest of the cast.

Pros:

* Better range on jabs.
* Elbow seems to have an even bigger hitbox.
* d+3 range increased (Unsure)
* d,d/f+1,2 combo ender easier to hit.

Cons:

* Bigger punch range makes 4~(2)1 NC setups fail due to the punch and kick hitting at the same time. Much harder to land now.

Staples:

- CH111, d/f+3, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1 d,d/f+1,2
- CH121, f+3,1, d/f+4, ff+1, ff+1, d,d/f+1,2
- u/f+43, d/f+3, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1, d,d/f+1,2
- CH4, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1, ff+1

Wall Combos:

- 1+2,4 bf+1+2
- u/f+431
- f+3~1

Notes:

- Julia has no generic d+4, although it still crushes highs.

General things to know:

- CH4 with Julia is GOOD. Usually leads to a wall.
- Only use 1+2,4,bf+1+2 on high/mid splats that leave you enough time to do it.
- d/f+2,1 is your low parry punishment tool. Use low parries since he has no WS launcher or good damage off it.
- CH111/CH121 although rewarding, are both at least EWGF punishable, so be wary.
- Spam elbow (ff+1).
- 4~21 can still be set up for it's NC range, but it's much harder, so her wall game is a little bit harder to set up.
- Mad Axes is the hardest throw to break in the game (qcb, f+2).
- WS4 knocks down, but is launch punishable on block (EWGF)

Short Movelist

1) ff+1
2) 4~2,1
3) 44
4) 4
5) Mad Axes
6) d/f+2,1 (low parry/whiff punishment)
7) d/f+1 (free d/f+3_ff+1 OC hit)
8) d+3

Punishers:

8f: 1
10f: 4
13f: ff+1
16f: d/f+2,1; 4~2,1 (on distance)

Deathfist: ff+1; 4~2,1
Kuma ff+2: f+3,1

Last edited by Gandido on Jan 22nd, 2007 at 07:01

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Jin Kazama - (similar to Paul) Both arms out in front, but close to body. Elbow placement is farther out than Pauls. Moves more than Paul when idle.

Pros:

* Seems to crush better.
* Mixups harder to see (for me, at least).
* WS4 range boost: CD4 advanced combos easier to do.

Cons:

* bf21 harder to hit as a juggle starter since he's lower to the ground.

Staples:

- WS2_CD1_u/f+4, bf21, f+1, d/b+223
- d+3+4, f+12, ff1, d/b+223 (if someone finds anything better, send.)
- CD4, d/b+223

Wall Combos:

- w!124 (high splats)
- w!214 (best)
- EWHF
- bf21>2
- 21, d+3+4

Notes:

- Jin has no generic d+4.
- Command for Jin's generic d+1 = d/b+1

General things to know:

- d+4 is launch punishable by most of the cast.
- d/b+4 is -14 on block (Jin/DJ WS2 punishable), except on max distance.
- On the other hand, d/b+4 is +3 on hit now, so use it near the wall.
- ff+4 hits grounded and gives + frames on block.
- u/f+2 has a slight evasion window and causes knockdown on counterhit.
- f+4 is a good spacing tool, and has a guaranteed combo on counterhit.
- bf2>1 is very hit confirmable and tracks both ways.
- CD4, d/b+223 combos do not work on Roger or Wang.

Short Movelist:

1) d/f+1>4
2) 21_214
3) ff+2
4) WS2
5) u/f+2
6) u/f+4
7) EWHF
8) CD4
9) d+4
10) ff+4
11) f+4
12) bf2>1

Punishers

10f: 21; 24
14: d+3+4; EWHF
15f: bf21; u/f+4

Deathfist: bf21 (close-mid range), f+4 (everywhere), DEWHF (everywhere), d/b+2 (everywhere), ff+2 (everywhere)
HS: u/f,n,4; CD1

Last edited by Gandido on Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:59

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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PSN: Gandido787
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Kuma/Panda - Hunched over.

Pros:

* Range boosted: Allows for a juggle after f+111 (with f+2, u/f+3,4, 1+2)
* Range boosted: d/f+4 now becomes a decent mid.
* 1+2 throw range also boosted completely.
* Character is less 'fat', hence can sidestep a lot better.
* d+1+2 (BOOTY!!!) seems to extend further, possibly better 14f punisher.
* CH d/b+2 guarantees dash up d+1+2 (BOOTY!!!)
* Lack of 'fatness' makes certain grounded hits that work on Kuma miss.
* Can now punish Deathfist much better!

Cons:

* Loss of 'fatness' causes him to not be able to punish Christie d/f+2 with 2,1 (f+1 might still work)
* Harder to hit combos off ff+2
* 1+2 no longer hits grounded; more dependent on ff+2 to hit grounded mid (harder to keep them guessing than with d/b+2 / 1+2)

Staples:

* CH d/b+2, ff d+1+2
- d/f+2, f+2, u/f+3,4,1+2
* f+111, f+2 -> (u/f+3,4,1+2_u/f+34, d+1+2)
- ff+2, wait, U/F+4, u/f+3,4, d+1+2
- WS1, f+2, u/f+3,4, d+1+2
- HBS 1+2, dash 1+2,1+2,1+2
* ff+2, BD u/f+1+2, f+1, u/f+34, d+1+2 (76 damage!)

Wall Combos:

- 213
- f+1, f+1, d+1+2

Notes:

- Kuma's d+4 comes out slower than most, but it's still the universal version.
- CH d/b+2 dash d+1+2 is fully guaranteed as it should hit while they are STILL on the ground.

General things to know:

- d/b+2 is a quick low that high crushes and knocks down on counterhit.
- f+1 and 21 are both -1 on block. Really good.
- d+1+2 has decievingly huge range. It's around -20 on block so be careful.
- WS1 is a 13 frame punisher from the ground.
- Circus Roll grab does 50 damage midscreen, but it does 66 when you hit the wall.
- CH f+1 guarantees another f+1.

Short Movelist:

1) f+1
2) 21
3) d/f+2
4) d/f+4
5) d/b+2
6) ff+2
7) u/f+3
8) HBS 1+2
9) WS1
10) throws

Punishers:

8f: f+1
10f: 21
12f: d/f+4
14f: d+1+2
15f: d/f+2
16f: u/f+3

Deathfist: f+2 (close), d+1+2 (close to almost max range), u/f+3 (close to mid range), f+1+2, d+1+2_ff+2 (max range)
HS: WS1

Last edited by Gandido on Jan 22nd, 2007 at 06:55

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Gandido
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PSN: Gandido787
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Wang - Arms are low to the ground. Foot in front of him is pointed up.

Pros:

* Range boosted in jabs mostly: 111, b+21, b+21, d+2,1+2 always hits.
* Kick range boosted as well.

Cons:

* Haven't been able to detect any yet.

Staples:

- CH111_d/f+11, b+21, b+21, d+2,1+2
- u/f+4, 4, b+21, d+2,1+2
- d/f+2,1, ffn1_2, b+21, b+21, f+1+2
- ff+4, ff d+2, d+3,4 (easier than with normal Wang by FAR)
- CH4, pause, b+21, b+21, d+2,1+2

Wall Combos:

- qcf+2
- 1, pause, d+3+4

Notes:

* Wang has no generic d+4.

General things to know:

- Throw a lot. All of Wang's throws leave you with good positioning.
- No one wants to eat b+21,14 NCs so you could probably get a lot of free low pokes.
- qcf+2 to punish from distances that b+21 will not.

Short Movelist:

1) b+21
2) 14
3) d+3
4) QCF+2
5) throws
6) WS4
7) ss+4
8) FC d/f+4,3
9) d/f+2,1 (low parry/punish)
10) u/f+4
11) CH4

Punishment:

8f: 14
10f: 23
12f: d/f+4
14f: b+21,14
15f: qcf+2; d+2,1+2; f+2
16f: d/f+2,1

Deathfist: qcf+2 (all ranges); d+2,1+2 (close-almost max range); f+2 (close-mid range)
HS: CC d/f+2,1
Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
wooden-man
Fujin
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 584
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
maybe u can also add in moves with crushing properties
and also moves with linear(straight) evadsive properties.

and not to forget the ss tracking moves

these would really be of great help to many.

Last edited by wooden-man on Oct 23rd, 2006 at 06:34

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Gandido
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by wooden-man
maybe u can also add in moves with crushing properties
and also moves with linear(straight) evadsive properties.

and not to forget the ss tracking moves

these would really be of great help to many.


Those will be mentioned in the general things to know section. This is kind of a big project, so right now I'm just mainly getting specifics out of the way.

FYI, your post might be deleted to unclutter this thread. But your suggestion is taken.
Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Sol.Eternal Pan
Iron Fist God
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1720
From: Australia
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Just a few corrections

Armour King

Wall combos- you had f+1,2 I believe that was a typo but it should be f+2,1
also f+1+4 hits against the wall and so does CD+1, which leaves for better wakes.

DU is 14f and should be used as you main punisher.


Eddie

You had rodeo as qcf+1+2 where it is actually HCF+1+2

An alternate 10f punisher is 1+2 which does around 20 damage

also after blocking hellsweep a WS,f+3 is guaranteed
Signature The difference between a 12" cock and an onion? Nothing, they both bring tears to your eyes- Rodney Rude
Gandido
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Posts: 1918
From: USA Florida
PSN: Gandido787
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Sol.Eternal Pan
Just a few corrections

Armour King

Wall combos- you had f+1,2 I believe that was a typo but it should be f+2,1
also f+1+4 hits against the wall and so does CD+1, which leaves for better wakes.

DU is 14f and should be used as you main punisher.


Eddie

You had rodeo as qcf+1+2 where it is actually HCF+1+2

An alternate 10f punisher is 1+2 which does around 20 damage

also after blocking hellsweep a WS,f+3 is guaranteed


DU is 14f in itself, but mostly you'll get it at 15-16 frames. An ELECTRIC is 14 frames. Hence why the comparison would be wierd. I do have to switch for f+2,1 and add Train and CD1.

Main punisher would be train, even with DU possibly coming out at 14, due to the fact that it's easier to pull off, and it's mid (can punish high crushes/lows whereas DU can't.)

Rodeo is HCF. True.

Is 1+2 10 or 12 frames? Confirm that. And it does 27.
- Just tested this. It can't punish Anna d/f+2, so it's NOT 10f. It's either 11 or 12.

WS,f+3 is guaranteed, but u/f, n 4 is the more damaging launcher, and I'm normally interested in max damage.

Last edited by Gandido on Oct 26th, 2006 at 04:16

Signature "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pasteur

Evolution 2008 Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection Runner-Up
Sol.Eternal Pan
Iron Fist God
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1720
From: Australia
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
DU doesn't require a full CD motion only f,n,d/f+2. Still possible to punish -14f moves if your ready. I don't see how the comparison between this and an electric would be any different, only in terms of safety but we are talking punishment. If you can't manage to do this then stick to f+1+4, whatever is easier for people.

Tested 1+2 its actually 11, my mistake.

U/F,N+4 is obviously more damage but it's always good to give other options just incase people have trouble with a certain move. With U/F,N+4 people tend to miss the timing of the kick resulting in a failed launcher, whereas WS,f+3 is much easier and still does good damage.
Signature The difference between a 12" cock and an onion? Nothing, they both bring tears to your eyes- Rodney Rude
Tiexandrea
Zombie On Your Lawn
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5439
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
i'm sure a lot of you already know this, but it's worth a try to post it anyway...

a good way to observe any character's stance without distractions is to use the PS2's character customization screen... here, you can even rotate the characters round-and-round and gawk at them all day to look at specific stance differences between characters...

of course, this does not apply to Lili, Drag and AK, but their stances are kinda distinctive anyway so you'll be able to spot them right away anyway...

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Originally posted by Ben111
the main reason old tekkens sucked was that you had to practice to be good at them
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