T7 Lee Guide

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Morninglord
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#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Is this the thread where I should talk about odd strange things I've found that I need someone to confirm for me?

Cos after f+4,3 at the wall, d+3 seems guaranteed, but d+3~4 to hms is not. The computer is quick stand blocking it (practise mode, guard all on second). I can't work out if I am being too slow. Can one of you guys who has not taken a long ass break from tekken and lee for a couple of years check this for me?
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AZYG4LYFE
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
HMS+1,1~f now exists (did this exist before?), saw it in STL's latest PS4 combo video.

https://youtu.be/nXlKFd9tlP0?t=163#t=0m29s
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Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: Japan
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Strange... doesn't show up in Nvidia Experience, but now auto starts Shadow Play when I open T7. Like, it won't let me launch or set recording from the control panel, but I can use hotkey in game, lololol... wtf?

So I got some videos... cutting them now.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#24 “Quote” Edit Post
Morninglord, I tested some stuff at the wall...

Nothing to HMS 4 seems to be guaranteed.

b+4, u/b+3 is guaranteed (wait even one frame and it's blockable)

f+4,3, d+3 is guaranteed

If they wake and somehow eat u/b+3 instead of blocking (on the mixup), you get d+4,N+4,u+3

If you get close enough post S!, b+4, d+3 is guaranteed. Can't go deep into combo though and get this still. I think maybe 4 hits max. Still doesn't make an optimal juggle.


I've tried just about everything I can think of at the wall, and unless there's something magical I'm missing? ([HMS]1,1~f,N, f+4,3, d+3?), then the most guaranteed damage is...
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
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PSN: Morninglord
#25 “Quote” Edit Post
That still beats b+2ms 4u+3, or df3,2>3? Seems like it wouldn't if they tried to tech, which reduces the damage off the d+3. Both those options involve a fat grounded hit. Grounded hits on the wall got reduced to 60% now, but its still great damage.

I don't doubt you, I'm just really surprised.

Whats the best and most reliable damage after wall carry to non high splat? They drop off faster.

Originally posted by Murakumo
Strange... doesn't show up in Nvidia Experience, but now auto starts Shadow Play when I open T7. Like, it won't let me launch or set recording from the control panel, but I can use hotkey in game, lololol... wtf?

So I got some videos... cutting them now.


Yep that's new shadowplay in a nutshell. It's whack. It drove me crazy since it used to be more consistent and understandable. That's why I rolled back.
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#26 “Quote” Edit Post
Yea, the b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3 is for non-high splat. So I think the grounded hit at wall might be doing more than the low wall hit now, % wise? It also no longer refloats whatever their options are... basically all options are "grounded" maybe? I'll have to look at % again on the hits...

Here's everything I tried:
4,3,4
d/f+3,2>3
d+4,N+4,u+3
b+4, u/b+3
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3 (b+2 does more damage than 2 of d/f+1 now)
f+3+4, WS+3,3_WS+3,(3) (f+3+4 hits low wall for slightly more damage)

Of all of these, b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3 gives the most guaranteed damage it seems. b+4, u/b+3 can be nice just in that if you hold forward a sec and f+3+4, they're forced to at the very least block it, and leave you +4, or eat it and leave you probably +7 still, or take it on the grounded and give you WS+3,3_WS+3,(3)... might be worth it to try sometimes.

I didn't get b+2~f,N, 4,u+3 to work on normal wall... have you? I'm just seeing them as too low for the 4 to connect, whereas f+4 has a really low hitbox in juggles despite technically being a H, which lets it connect.

If you still get a high wall, 4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3 still works. Some people said you couldn't do that from WS+2,3 anymore, but I'm here to tell you... it's totally in. I think some people were thrown off before just because WS+2,3 recovers so much quicker, so timing-wise, you have to input the 4,u+3 earlier than you used to, but the combo still works for good damage. WS+2,4 actually isn't giving more damage unless you're cutting an angle to the wall and can pop them off a bit and float them back into it.

If you decide to go for mid-low mixups that hit grounded:
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, u/b+3
or
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, f+3+4
and
b+2~f,N, f+4,3,3+4, [HMS]4

As far as the standing ones...
If you think they'll stay down, f+3+4 to WS+3,3_WS+3,(3) gives superior damage, and it's also safer if they stand and block (leaves you +4), but doesn't give anything special aside from frames if they stand and eat it.
In contrast is u/b+3, which doesn't leave us with those + frames if they stand and block (is it punishable? I haven't checked or tested). If they stay down though and it hits, you can hold forward a bit into f+3+4 (F~+3+4) and feather landing will track even techs enough to force a block, so it's continued pressure at least). Also, if they stand and try blocking low, it won't hit with any delay, but you can get d+4,N+4,u+3 off of it? (haven't tried f+4,3). So meaty damage (abut 1/3 life) if they stand and duck vs. this option.

As for the beefy low in HMS 4, it can now be followed by u/b+3 into an immediate f+3+4. The u/b+3 is guaranteed and because they're "backwards," any tech after this is very compact and doesn't move much to the side... being backwards, I suspect if they stay down we might get u/b+3 again without them before able to get out...
So basically, at wall, [HMS]4, u/b+3, f+3+4 > see what happens. At worst you are +4, middling it hits and +7, and if they stayed grounded you continue.
... so it might be worth the risk, but we just have to remember that if they block HMS 4, we're going for a bit of a ride. =P
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#27 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Morninglord
Is this the thread where I should talk about odd strange things I've found that I need someone to confirm for me?

Cos after f+4,3 at the wall, d+3 seems guaranteed, but d+3~4 to hms is not. The computer is quick stand blocking it (practise mode, guard all on second). I can't work out if I am being too slow. Can one of you guys who has not taken a long ass break from tekken and lee for a couple of years check this for me?




OOOOOOOOH, I see what you're saying now. That sounds really weird. I'll try it out when I get home.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#28 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't remember if I hit b+2ms 4u+3 off a normal splat or not. I haven't played around with wall stuff as much as you have, I've been mostly labbing other chars the last two days. I probably didn't if you can't hit it.
I'm getting back around to Lee today on my little rotation, cos I had no idea that RD could fn afterwards! :3

Are you finding 1333 easier to hit than it used to be? I'm hitting it really reliably. Its still not easy, but it doesn't feel like a true just frame, def not as difficult as mist trap. Maybe I've just stumbled on a rhythm that works for me.

Also its knocking down all the time now, doesn't do the stumble stun. Is that a change?
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#29 “Quote” Edit Post
RD into MS is weird though, because you can cancel to moves but not movement if that makes sense... like you can't dash out of it it seems (like other MS). I wonder if well use something like sway~dash for some other followups (I wanted SSR~d+2 to increase consistency to b+2, but it doesn't seem like that is a thing... maybe I can try basically a 1-frame sway... ~b,N~SSR~d+2, b+2~f,N...

I have some serious misgivings about 1,3:3:3 actually, which are:
- I'm getting good at timing it, but...
- It only holds real value as a punish...
- And having a bufferable period in your punish, unless you're timing it right at the frame-of-recovery-ish, buffering it into your punish (or follow-up like in the [CH] (2),(1),4, 1,3:3:3 combo) means you kind of mess with the timing in the rest of the move.
- Once you get to i13, f+1+2 already does more damage anyway, and also KD/splats,
- Not worth CH finishing, as 2,2 is probably a better tool for that.

So really I feel like the one place it shines is at the wall. If b+4 vs. crouched still gave free jabs at the wall (ala T4), then it would be pretty sweet, lol (b+4, 1,3:3:3, W!... lololol). But that's not the case. Literally the only link I see so far into it is that [CH] (2),(1),4. Might be useful if b+2~f,N went into jabs like T4 (when it was SS+2~f,N... 1,3:3:3 was only NCc, but we had 1,2,4:4 back then, which I miss so, so very much, even to this day).

If we find something else it connects off it, then maybe it will be more worth it. I just take issue to the bufferable period to punish throwing off the rest of the timing on the move, and I have little interest in using it in the open when there's no bufferable period to worry about (maybe at wall as SS~quick whiff punish, but again, f+1+2 is only two frames off and stronger).
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
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Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#30 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm going to learn to buffer it primarily to make people shit scared of doing anything -10 and up when their back is to the wall.

I think you underestimate how scary that is. Taking some jabs with back to the wall? Meh. Splat? FUCK!
It's pressure. Also its sexy.

Also...ss.

ss jabs. How easy are they to land? You can ss jab punish almost anything.

And yeah I miss 124:4 too. So much fun. Pretty sure I learnt about ss+2 124:4 ch from one of your posts! Man I feel old.

Last edited by Morninglord on Jun 5th, 2017 at 16:26

Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Didn't even need CH! It used to connect on normal hit!

In T6.0 it worked on SS+2~f,N on CH, notably near a wall or against Marduk IIRC, but required a counter and there was no just frame then... disappeared once SS+2 became b+2. =/
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
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Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Hah. It did stupid damage too.
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#33 “Quote” Edit Post
And I think I remember it being + on hit!

*Warning to other readers who aren't just nostalgic old men, this is not T7 stuff!*
I remember:
SS+2~f,N, 1,2,4:4
[CH] f+2, f+1,2,4:4
WS+1, 1,2,4:4
wall push, FC+2, cc~1,2,4:4
vs. crouching at wall... b+4, 1,2,4:4
(not really usable, but, I think this TECHNICALLY worked) ki charge, wall push, f+2, d+2, cc~1,2,4:4
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#34 “Quote” Edit Post
I remember launching xiayou backturned and doing Lee's entire ten string into her back. I carried to the wall and then just started the ten string just before they splatted backwards.

It all hit.

The whole thing.

I was had no idea, I was just doing it for lols expecting it to whiff. Imagine my surprise. (Might have been Lei, it was a backturned character).

Also 12ms working better when you are traveling up hill!

And d+4,4~3 wall tech trap.

Hes never been more Op. Haha.
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#35 “Quote” Edit Post
A SSR could get you one more set of jabs juggling from the back, too...
d,d/b+4, f,N, [BT], d+1, cc, 1,2~f,N, SSR, 1,2~f,N, 1,2~f,N,
... and then if you took them to wall you got 10-string.

... oh, and arena infinite and all that other fun with SWS!

And (1),(3):3:3 was a tech-catch to re-combo! =D


.... I miss Tekken 4, lolol.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#36 “Quote” Edit Post
All the lee and jin players miss tekken 4. Everyone else is just making ew faces at us. I feel like our nostalgia is derailing things, new people will get very confused over the next few months.
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#37 “Quote” Edit Post
2, d/f+1, ff+3 also works on wall, but it is only for styling... literally does the same as d+4,N+4,u+3 and recovers slower.

I've done some more study on wall oki, and added it to the guide.

In a nutshell...

f+4,3 into...
HMS 4
or
u/b+3

HMS 4
- They stand and block low = you are -22 (punished)
- They stay down = hit grounded, then dragon dash into mixup
- They stand and get hit = guaranteed u/b+3, then throw f+3+4
--- if they stay down = they get hit, u/b+3 again and throw f+3+4 again (repeat until they do something?)
--- if they tech = tech is compact and it connects
--- --- they block = you are +4 with them crouched (WS+2,3 or WS+2,4 for high wall or wall splat--trades with low jab, beats everything else)
--- --- they get hit = you are +8 (+9?)... have fun! You can now mixup with a slide and other things and still win on frames!
--- if they stand, it (back to the f+3+4 here) hits in the back...
--- --- u/f+4 mini splat and ff+3 (other situational things, but this seems the most consistent)

u/b+3
- they stand and block = you are -13 (could be punished)
- they stand and crouch = follow-up mini combo of d+4,N+4,3
- they eat it = try u/b+3 again
--- they tech = you might be safe because of added distance
--- they eat the second one = ff+3 low wall hit follow-up


So all-in-all, there's more risk than before, but still probably worth it in many cases.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#38 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm starting to think mixing those won't be so great just because the HMS will be a dead giveaway once people catch on...

[HMS] u/f+4 won't track siderolls, but it will hit grounded, is a mid option, is safe on block, and gives u/b+3 from there on hit. Might be the go-to to mix in here.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#39 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Murakumo
I'm starting to think mixing those won't be so great just because the HMS will be a dead giveaway once people catch on...

[HMS] u/f+4 won't track siderolls, but it will hit grounded, is a mid option, is safe on block, and gives u/b+3 from there on hit. Might be the go-to to mix in here.


You can ub+3 out of hms? If they get trained to block low in hms, hms~ub+3. Thank you for habituating to my fake tell.
Also silver tail out of hms if you want more safety for the low. It'll still hit grounded.

You could also just d+3 and go into slide mixups at the wall.
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#40 “Quote” Edit Post
Yea, I was thinking of d+3 to slide mixups, which works, but it DOES allow them to tech off and get further to the side. Good combination of max damage and keeping pressure up, though.

Thanks, BTW, for the mention of u/b+3 out of HMS. Good call. Though I'd probably just used that if I think they might roll to the side (or if we find the animation difference is harder to see, making it harder to guard). If they're gonna stand-block low, that [HMS]u/f+4 will give u/b+3, f+3+4 at least, too, which is pretty nice, especially for being safe on block.
... if I know they sideroll sometimes, I'd probably cancel to [HMS] u/b+3. If I they don't, I might opt [HMS]u/f+4
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!

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