T7 Lee Guide

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Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
**Work in Progress**

Hi all,

Murakumo here. I didn't stick around long into TTT2U (mostly just testing on TTT2.0 and very early TTT2U in arcade, though most people never saw the original version), but I'll be back this time around for FR now that Lee is finally added in (I've played 7.0 and FR, but only very minimally with Law and Yoshi since Lee wasn't in). With the console reLEEse, I'll be doing a lot of testing and videos again. I'll by trying to get a pretty detailed guide going here, too, for anyone who wants to pick him up as a character. I endeavor to cover all information that people need to get a solid understanding and start with him.

I'm currently setting up the structure. Upon release I will be be filling in the gaps and missing data. After writing, I will be making/posting videos for sections so that this time around people can see what is being explained in here (i.e. a written section on punishes and a video for those punishes with the same info).

Later on if sections need to be combined or changed, ex., I'm sure Az can edit this up with administrator privileges. I will also start by dropping in past and known information, and come back to edit if anything turns out to be different once we get our hands on the game.

I will also start a vs. character thread soon with one post for each character that can be edited and added to over time, as I feel at high level you end up playing the opponent as much or more than you are playing your own character (your execution ingrained, but your game and risk/reward skewed by who and how the opponent plays).

Contents:
- Lee Chaolan past to present (notable changes and play style)
- T7 system changes and the effects on Lee
- new moves and input changes
- Punishes
- Pokes
- Hit confirms
- Counters
- Special property moves (power crush, rage drive, homing, rage art) and when/how to use them appropriately (when they are worth more than something else)
- Combos
- Oki
- Play style(s) considering tools, system, and opponent player; including discussion on risk/reward (skew the numbers in your favor over time)

Last edited by Murakumo on May 25th, 2017 at 03:11

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Reserved #1

* Lee Chaolan past to present (notable changes on play style)


T6
Lee had great oki and CH abilities, and tied for the best max carry in the game along with Nina. Strong oki game at wall and very high-damage combos.
... the problem with T6 Lee was crap lows (by risk/reward), f+2>1 wasn't very hit confirmable (delay works but they could duck the second even after the first connected) as 3>3 wasn't, and mainly... his lows all sucked. Sway+4 was - on hit, FC,d/f+4 and d/b+3+4 were both launch punishable (-16), d+3 is launch punishable AND - on hit. In T6 Lee's problem was fighting turtles--they had very little reason to duck.

Fast forward to...
TTT2
Major buffs to some moves, but doesn't feel like it. Why? The system made him non-unique. If he got the same changes but in the T6 mechanics, he would have been very strong. Oki much less good as tag system kills major parts of it, and carry not unique because teams can carry with TA and do a lot more damage than the solo carry.
HOWEVER, 3>3 became TTT1 style hit confirmable again, and does heaps of damage for an i14 mid with some tracking. But we can't get them to duck, right? Wrong. FC,d/f+4 and d/b+3+4 moved to -13 on block. Much safer now. sway+4 goes from - to +4 on hit. This helps skew risk/reward for more lows, gets them to duck, and bolsters our low risk high reward mid game, too.
Essentially Lee's solo-game tools in TTT2 were very good, but they could not shine under the tag system mechanics, because we judge a character not only on their tools, but their tools in comparison to others, and the tag system both gimped his strengths (oki) and bolstered others in areas that were his domain before (carries, wall oki).



* T7 system changes and effects on Lee

So what about...
T7
- Slightly better punishers (1,3:3:3 at i10, f+1+2 at i13, f+3,3,3,3,3,4, S! as an i15 punish to combo now)
- Same CH ability
- Oki diminished due to new system (but comparably still maybe one of the best in cast--f+4,3 and b+4 don't seem to give the quick recover back flop that allows people to block after most "spikes"--probably better than TTT2 oki now with tag system gone).
- One of the game's best carries still, but barely, and generally at some bit of damage sacrifice.
- Good hit confirm-ability (3>3 / [CH]d+4>N+4,3 / [CH]f+4>3 / [CH]2,2>3 (though still -13 after 2,2) / b+1:1,2 (HC 3rd hit) for safe and safe-ish poking, and f+2>1 seems to have a slightly longer HC window now (on par with new 3>3, which was shortened from TTT2).

Problems?
- Frame changes (at less + on many hits, for example after d/f+1 (+5 instead of +7), sway+4 (+3 instead of +4), 1+2 now -4 (-5?) on block instead of -2 (WS+3,3 no longer a stuff option vs. mids, and can't step out easily on block)... this all means it's hard to mount offensive pressure.
- Tailspin does not lend itself to being particularly good for Lee, because late in his juggles he cannot follow it up with anything. Our max distance juggles, and hard at that, are 9 aerial hits. Previously they were 10 aerial hits. Further, the scaling system is not particularly helpful for him (full scaling from aerial hit 4), meaning his juggle damage is very middle of the road, despite having more difficulty getting that damage compared to other characters).
- Momentum reset and rewall options are still there, but without a tech catch to scare the opponent away from tech rolling (as far as I've found thus far), there is no mixup. These tools, then, are only useful against opponents who lack knowledge. =[

So all the major areas to me look pretty well covered--punishes, CH game, oki, carry, damage output (when considering walls), so one might assume he looks pretty strong in this outing... 
... However, system changes seemed to have hit him hard, too. He loses a lot if we can't tech catch, and the TS system takes a lot away from him. His lows are the same on block as TTT2, which should seem safer than T6, but i13 punishes in this game are really buff, and not much better than being launched anyway. Further, graded a character is not by just what they have, but what they have in comparison to other characters. Playing Lee in this game feels like an uphill battle, and I can't help but feel I have to drastically outplay my opponents to win.

* New moves and input changes, or changed properties:
3>3 (slightly less delayable, but still, hit confirm-able)
d/f+1+2,3 (old f+1+2,3)
f+1+2 (old ff+1+2, i13 punish, knockdown, splats, good range, no pushback on block)
WS+2,3 (back to T6 style, -14 on block, recovers faster than T6 though [combo application])
WS+2,4 (Safe on block, second hit high, slower than WS+2,3 so they can fuzzy guard/option select to block>duck and cover both options, so still not a good poking tool)
f+3,3,3,3,3,4 (gives S!, one aerial hit into combo, on block the 4 can be interrupted even with no delay (trades with i11, interrupted by i10).
SSR+3+4 (now mid, -11--8 on block, usually punishable)

Last edited by Murakumo on Jan 5th, 2018 at 11:24

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Reserved #2

<WORK IN PROGRESS>

*** Punishes

https://youtu.be/dM4ltoRS7ZA


Standing:

i10
d+1 (6 dmg, +6; to punish -10 and go under a high follow-up)
d+1~f (6 dmg, +6; to punish -10 and go under a high follow-up, recovers standing)
2,1 (18 dmg, +6 frames)
1,2,4 (26 damage, -1)
1,3 (12 dmg, +/- 0; missed input)
1,3:3 (16 dmg, +1; missed input)
1,3:3:3 (32 dmg, KD; more difficult input, wall splats)

i11
d/b+2 (10 dmg, +7; for more range than a jab when you need to go under a possible high follow-up, goof frames)
f+4 (17 dmg, +4; great range... used to be used to punish Anna u/f+1,3 and counter HC to the 3 if she tried her follow-up)
4,4 (22 dmg, +6; floats to juggle if option selecting their follow-up, such as Julia's old u/f+4,3,1)
4,3 (30 dmg, -3; when option selecting a follow-up like Julia's old u/f+4,3,1, it led to [CH]4,(3),3... this no longer binds, however, but can floor break)

i12
d+4 (9 dmg, -14;... very rare use--basically punishing -12 where they can go low, like Leo ff+4,3 vs. ff+4,3,4 (doesn't work now)... It will punish the first for a very small amount of damage, and if they continue you can counter HC it into N+4,3 for a good amount of damage--it's also punishable ON HIT, so you may need to start mixing up string continuations [or drop it] if they start punishing the non-CH version; i.e. d+4>[CH]N+4 fishing to juggle). basically avoid this.
d/b+4 (9 dmg, -2; for more range than a jab when you need to go under a possible high follow-up. Worse frames but better range than d/b+2)
x (in most cases, default to the i10 or i11 punishes at -12)
*(I miss standing 3,3 from T5 and prior... i12, damage and forced crouch... RIP)

i13
d/f+1 (13 dmg, +5)
d/f+1,2 (medium dmg, +1; keeps you close)
d/f+1,2,2 (slightly more dmg, -7; have to defend after)
d/f+4 (16 dmg, +2; can be cancelled to HMS [i14 and +3 at tip of foot?])
f+1+2 (best damage, vs. standing, knockdown)
*Now that we have f+1+2, the mids will mostly be reserved for situations with either a low continuation or where they recover low at -13 and Lee is standing, like Kuma's u/f+3,4,1+2, IIRC.

i14
b+2~f,N (13 dmg, +5-6; long range)
b+2,4 (25 dmg, -6; long range)
3,3 (34 dmg, +1)
f+2,1 (36 dmg, KD; Splats on wall. Had some problems before reaching Steve Ducking 2 when blocked at range [connected but blockablable, so maybe i15 at very tip?).

i15
d/f+3,2,3 (back) (48 dmg; gives juggle; 2... pops them upright and leads to full normal combo. Juicy damage against Xiao, maybe applicable vs. Lili or Master Raven, too)
d/f+2 (12 dmg, launches vs. standing, +4 vs. crouch; short-ish range)
u/f+4 (13 dmg, launches vs. all; slightly lower juggle start than d/f+2)
b+1,1,2 (29 dmg, +1; non-JF version, long range)
b+1:1,2 (41 dmg, KD; JF version, splats, long range)
f+3,3,3,3,4 (35 dmg, KD; Can go to [HMS] u/f+4, also max damage with wall to left and b+3,3 pick-up)
f+3,3,3,3,3,4 (38 dmg, S!; gives juggle, 1 aerial hit into juggle momentum)

i16[I]
d/f+3+4(~f,N) (25 dmg, S!; long range, mid, good whiff punish, rage drive, leads to combo)

[I]i17

f,N+3,4 (20 dmg, launch; 17 frames at fastest, inconsistent, poor hitbox (fist kick whiffs a lot)
ff+3 (37 dmg, KD; splats, great range. 17 frames at fastest, inconsistent)

i18
d/f+1+2,3 (41, KD; heavy wall splat)

i23
u/f,N+4 (25 dmg, juggle; usually max-damage option, cancel-able to HMS)
...

From Crouch:

i10
FC+1 (6 dmg, +6)
FC+1~f (6 dmg, +6; recovers standing)
WS+3,3 (27 dmg, -8~9; i10 when close-ish, good damage, - on hit, but can follow to infinity kick low/mid mixup)

i11
FC+2 (10 dmg, +7)
WS+4 (16 dmg, +5~6)
WS+3,3 (27 dmg, -7~8; i11 when it connects near foot, - on hit, but can follow to infinity kicks low/mid mixup)

i12
WS+1 (12 dmg, +9; Maybe useful for follow-up wall pressure when trying to splat? Not sure there's much use for this).
FC+4 (dmg, -4; not a great option If you need to option select punish with it under a high, FC+2 will help you keep more pressure)

i14
WS+2,4 (35 dmg, +26-guardable; use at wall for W!, follow with b+4 or d/b+3+4)
WS+2,3 (36 dmg, juggle; use mid-stage for follow-up to ff+3 or rage drive d/f+3+4~f, S! to juggle, give high wall at wall)
FC,U/F+4 i14 when close and with just frame input (frame of recovery)

i15
*u/f+4 (13 dmg, launcher; Needs to be input early in the buffer window to give silver knee at i15 and not the flip kick)

i18
FC,u/f+4 (25 dmg, launch; input the u/f+4 on the frame of recovery for i18, cancel-able to HMS. Early gives knee... go-to combo is now cc, 4,u+3, b+2...)

i23
u/f,N+4 (25 dmg, launch; Max damage against slow recovery--good height)





*Hit Confirms*
i10
[CH] 2,2>3 (will not connect at max delay)

i11
[CH] f+4>3

i12
[CH] d+4>N+4,3 (will not connect at max delay)

i14
3>3 (Max delay is less than before, but still very doable. Also possible to do no delay to jail, which is -10 but safe against most of the cast aside from Jack)
f+2>1 (HC window seems better than prior installments, but still blockable/duckable at max delay. Recommend 3>3 instead.)

i15
b+1:1,2 (same speed, but hit confirm the 2, and can cancel to 3+4 to create space with HMS on block).



*hit confirm tip*
Because of all the visual information on the screen, sometimes it's easier to use their life-bar as a trigger with the non-CH ones (namely 3>3, possibly d/f+1+2>3, or if you're really adventurous and think you can pull it off, f+2>1)... if their life bar moves, hit the follow-up.



* Counters
-i10
[CH] 2,2,3 (2,2 is -13. Hit confirm the follow-up, knocks down/wall splats)

i11
[CH] f+4,3 (+6-8 on hit, -6--8 on block, NCc)
[CH] 4 (+7 on hit, -9 on block, juggle on CH)
[CH] 4,4 (Second kick realigns if they SS, +6 on hit, -5 on block, juggle on CH)
[CH] 4,u+3 (KD on hit, -1-+1 on block, Second hit on counter connects best when the 4 is mid-far)
[CH] 4,3,4 (mostly only works when 4 hits really far)

i12
d+4,N+4,3 (Risky on non-counter, -3 on hit, dmg option)
d+4,N+4,4 (Risky on non-counter, +6 on hit, frame option)

i17
ff+4 (Crushes some highs, +3 on hit, ? on block, high, juggle on CH)

i18-22
[CH] u/b+3 (KD on hit, -13--9 on block, gives ff+3 or d/f+3+4~f,N on CH)


i20-22
b+4[/B} (+7-9 on hit, gives followup vs. crouchers [face down], -3--1 on block, juggle on CH)

i21-22
[B]1+2
(+3-4 on hit, -4--3 on block, homing, gives juggle on CH)

f,N,b,N+4 (crushes highs, -13 on block, +3 on hit, gives juggle on CH)

i23-25
d/b+3+4 (some tracking, -13 on block, +4-6 on hit, KD for followup on CH)

i24-26
[HMS]4 (Sweep on hit [gives slide if close], -26 on block, juggle on counter hit... crush from frame 6)
...

* Special property moves




How to fight--pokes:

There are several factors to take into consideration when poking, including range of poke, tracking, and speed. One other consideration is whether you think the opponent will attack or not. It's important to think also in terms of risk/reward, and we generally want to cover as many options as possible while staying as safe as possible. You can think of this as a ratio, though, and the return on certain moves might mean that they are worth the risk (talking CH poke here, for example, which tends to be punishable but net beefy rewards).
Thus, the poking section will be split into two primary sections--if you think they'll attack (counter hit poking), and if you think they'll defend/move (safety and coverage poking). The attack-defend paradigm will be the primary level employed when selecting your tool. d+3, for example, is a total crap choice if you think they'll just try to defend. First, it's more punishable than other lows on block (launch punishable by most of the cast), and without a counter, it actually leaves you - on hit. This would be something you employ, then to crush highs or fish for a possible counter since the follow-up is strong. Your other good low options also mostly don't crush highs with any sort of quick start-up. Thus, we see that d+3 is a counter tool, and we have no reason aside from our own idiocy to use it if we don't think the opponent is going to (or at least might) attack.

*Counter poking*
2,2 cHC to 2,2,3
4 Beefy juggle
4,4 Safer, but slightly less beefy juggle than solo 4
f+4 long range, cHC to f+4,3
d+4 cHC to N+4,3 for damage or N+4,4 for frames... - on hit, but great damage on counter hit. Really, really bad on normal hit, though (-14) and all follow-ups can be option selected... use this if you need to be quick but also want to stuff high crushes or power crushes.
ff+4 "crushes" highs, especially jabs
d+2 "crushes" most jabs, also beats some low jabs somehow? (anecdotal). Crushes earlier than d+3.
d+3~4 Crushes highs from frame 6? (Reconfirm frame in 7, was instant in 5)
1+2 (vs. evasive attacks/SS)
b+4 (zoning)-not as good as before. More likely to whiff in their face. Don't use vs. opponents with good long-range whiff punishes.

*Safety poking*
1,2 (-1 on block, leads to mixups on hit at +5)
d/f+1 (-1-+1 on block, +5-+7 on hit > mixups)
d/f+4 (safe on block at -9--8, long range, can be cancelled to HMS to create space if they get greedy responding too quickly)
3 HC, or 3,3 (jails at 0 delay, -10 but not close enough to be punished by some characters)
d/f+2
d/b+3 (-12 on block)
d/b+3+4 (-13--11 on block... safer when it hits later)
FC,d/f+4 (-14 on block)
FC,d/f+4~3,[HMS]qcB (-13 on block, but narrow window on cancel)
f,N,b,N+4 (-13 on block)
b+4 (meaty) (mid, safe on block, + on hit, face downs crouchers, juggle on counter)
1+2 (tech meaty) (mid, safe on block, but with changed frames now [-4 instead of -2], we are forced to defend after with no continuing mixup, or just possibly SS)

Last edited by Murakumo on Jan 5th, 2018 at 11:23

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Reserved #3 (this will probably turn into a post with a considerable amount of content, and thus just has two main sections therein)

Combo Concepts for Lee

Combo system guide
https://youtu.be/wPN2z9Ls9dU


First a few combo concepts and things to understand:

- WS+2,3 and WS+2,4 do the same damage in juggle. WS+2,4 gives S! follow-up, early in juggle WS+2,3 can lead to b+2~f,N, but at the cost of some distance. WS+2,3 also reaches further on the kick late in juggles.

- b+2~f,N is a great filler. I noticed it got a little damage boost. It is now stronger than b+1:1~f,N (does the same in most areas of the juggle due to scaling, but better than non-JF version), and stronger than 2 and d/f+1. Decent filler, that considered. Also easier than linking successive b+2's than into b+1:1~f,N.

- The above given, b+1:1~f,N travels further than b+2~f,N, meaning it can be used to make up for lost space in juggles that are still within your number of hits (and thus momentum) to accomplish. This makes b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N a handy tool to have if you can get used to it--just becomes about getting used to that rhythm.

- f+2,1 vs WR+3,4 ender? f+2,1 does only 1 less damage and is much easier to connect. Since the patch, fff+3,4 can usually replace f+2,1 as an ender in all but the most rare occasions. Not as easy to connect though.

Juggle Math
- Why do I keep referring to the number of aerial hits? Because they are what affects momentum. The more hits you have, the further away the opponent flies with each hit. There may be different numbers of hits on the starter (u/f+4 vs. f,N+3,4 vs WS+2,3 vs. f+3,3,3,3,3,4), but it's the number of hits that the opponent is considered airborne that matters.

... so here's our combo math

- WS+2,3 (carry) can hit on aerial hits 7,8 at maximum
- WS+2,4 can hit on aerial hits 6,7, given you are close enough (technically, situationally it can hit 7,8, but it is hard, weird, and the follow-up is nearly impossible to hit).
- f+2,1 can connect as hits 8,9, post-WS+2,4, S! (having happened on 6,7)

Miscellaneous Juggle Considerations:

Scaling is really nasty and really fast now—try to get big early hits when you can.

d/f+1 and 2 still do the same damage
b+1,1~f,N does less than d/f+1 and 2
b+1:1~f,N does more than d/f+1 and 2
b+2~f,N actually does more than b+1:1~f,N now
b+2~f,N will do more damage than b+1:1~f,N early in a juggle
Later in a juggle (at least after hit 4, maybe earlier) when scaling is at 30%, b+1:1~f,N and b+2~f,N both do 3 damage. B+1,1~f,N (non-JF) will do 2.
Considering it’s only 1 damage loss, if you’re using a b+1:1~f,N_b+1,1~f,N link late in a juggle, it’s probably easiest to try it (on a stick at least) the way I delineated in my old video (double plink for two chances at the button press on the right timing).
The b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N link is still useful in that it can put you in range for some things to hit that otherwise wouldn’t.
* Since the patch, 4,u+3 keeps the opponent closer and b+2 hits slightly further. 4,u+3, b+2~f,N is staple from almost everything. In some cases 4,3 on aerial hits 2,3 can still lead to b+2 if you're still close enough (enough applications to be common-ish and useful... after CH 4, after f+3,3,3,3,3,4, S!, etc.)

Our number one goal with Lee is to carry the opponent to the wall.

Juggle distance guide (old... post-patch staple is easier now and some areas have damage boost with 4,u+3)
https://youtu.be/rnViLJDp2OQ


WS+2,3 and WS+2,4 do the same damage as each other only 1 aerial hit into the juggle.
WS+2,4 with momentum actually adds a lot to carry.
f+2,1 late in a juggle carries slightly further than WS+2,3, though you probably need to change your ender in most cases. If you carry to the wall with f+2,1 since they don’t splat high and you have to run in, the best ender is going to be d+4,N+4,u+3, which is still good damage and the d+4 is 12 frames and has good range.
Even if you’re only doing 8 aerial hits, using S! will give some extra carry distance you wouldn’t otherwise get.

1,2~f,N does almost nothing damage-wise, and makes your scaling crap really quick. Avoid it, especially early in a juggle, if you can.

d+2 gives good damage, and I think slightly better than 4 as the first hit, but…
from SSL u/f+4, d+2 into b+2~f,N whiffs on the b+2 normally... however, if you d+2 really low it will connect, using the d+2 as either first or second aerial hit).
from straight it connects when the d+2 is the first aerial hit
… d+2 CAN hit on the second aerial hit post S! and still give b+2~f,N, but with really early/specific timing (legs can’t be coming down much yet, like the old max range IWS+2,3 finish, but with less time to get there).
From SSR, d+2 can still connect on aerial hit 2 into b+2~f,N, or aerial hit 3 into b+2~f,N, though with the latter you’ll need a b+1:1~f,N link to catch up to do much of anything.
(i.e., SSR, u/f+4, d+2, b+2~f,N, d+2, b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N,b,N+2,4, S!... Also won't work if you are too far to the side, in which case you shorten it by one hit [the b+1:1~f,N] before the S!])

WS+2,3 can give follow-ups now in juggle (mostly not useful except b+1:1~f,N and b+2~f,N) …
- b+1:1~f,N connects if WS+2,3 were the first 2 aerial hits
- b+2~f,N connects up to when WS+2,3 are the 2nd and 3rd aerial hits
- d/f+3+4 also connects up to when WS+2,3 are the 2nd and 3rd aerial hits
- ff+3 will connect after WS+2,3 as the 3rd and 4th aerial hits
*Since the patch, this is mostly inferior to 4,u+3, which can be used in nearly identical incidents... WS+2,3 is still better on CH wake up kicks, or after blocking slide...

Sample Combos by Starter
... work in progress, lulz

Magic 4 combos
https://youtu.be/nXWWijZrQIw


Okizeme
Given the new system, there is not a whole lot of worthwhile okizeme mid-stage, and particularly after long juggles (hard to keep them close). In many instances the risk/reward is in the defenders favor (you catch one option vs. losing to three), so only viable if you have a really good read. That said, there are a few important/opportune okizeme spots after certain counterhits and sweeps that I will try to flesh out here as I get more information--have to wait for a friend to come help with testing so I can legitimately confirm what bases are covered.

Wall Math
- Carries have momentum, and walls have slump. The more hits on the wall, the faster the opponent falls, which is why can can't just keep hitting them ad infinitum.
- Low wall hits (when the opponent is "pseudo grounded" so it doesn't hit them into the wall) don't count toward slump.
- High wall hits don't count toward slump.
- Spikes (now that B! is gone, in context of floor break combos) do not add to slump.

... this allows us to kind of hack the number of hits we can get. For example, f+4,3, will only connect after one prior "wall hit" adding to slump, but not 2. But we can do things like...
WS+2,4, W!, SS, 4,3,4, (hw), b+2~f,N, 1+2, F!, 4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3
where...
4,3,4 has popped them off the wall instead of directly into it--doesn't count for slump
b+2~f,N hits when they are very high on the wall--doesn't count toward slump
1+2 breaks the floor with them face down (which allows for the first hit below to be a high wall hit)
4,u+3 gives the first hit very high, and then the second hit at a normal height on the wall--finally, our one hit of wall slump
f+4,3 connects because of only a single slump hit prior
d+3 is guaranteed



Wall Combos

https://youtu.be/c7uX8Tq4pq0

4,u+3
4,3,4
d/f+3,2>3
4,3,3 (flop)
d+4,N+4,3,3 (no flop)
d+4,N+4,u+3
b+4, u/b+3
2, d/f+1, ff+3
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3 (b+2 does more damage than 2 of d/f+1 now) --max guarantee damage early in combo
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, oki
4,3>4 (last hit low wall hit) --max guaranteed damage late in combo
3~3:4, u/b+3 * --absolute max guaranteed damage when a wall is to the right (situational)


Of all of these, b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3 gives the most guaranteed damage it seems, with sort of okay pressure after. b+4, u/b+3 is nice in that you can follow with d/f+4, and if they tech rolled, you are +2. If they didn't tech, you get a re-float, (w), f+4,3, d+3.

High Wall Combos
4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3_oki

If you still get a high wall, 4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3 still works. Some people said you couldn't do that from WS+2,3 anymore, but I'm here to tell you... it's totally in. I think some people were thrown off before just because WS+2,3 recovers so much quicker, so timing-wise, you have to input the 4,u+3 earlier than you used to, but the combo still works for good damage. WS+2,4 actually isn't giving more damage unless you're cutting an angle to the wall and can pop them off a bit and float them back into it.

Floor Break Wall Combos
b+4, F!, 4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3_oki
f+3+4, F!, 4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3_oki (last level of floor break only).

Floor Break High Wall Combos
4, 1+2, F! 4,u+3, f+4,3, d+3_oki

Wall Okizeme
Lee's old d/f+1 refloat vs. quickstand is gone. I really loved that 50/50 (d/f+1 vs. f+3+4) because it was so safe and so damaging, and offered several layers of defense your oponent would have to wade through just to get back to neutral.

... However, we need to look at what we have in T7 and not just pine for the days of BR (hey, at least our lows and punishes are better now).
If you decide to go for mid-low mixups that hit grounded:
b+2~f,N, f+4,3, u/b+3
or
b+2~f,N, f+4,3,3+4, [HMS]4


So here's the deal with u/b+3 here
- They can stand and block
- If they stand and get hit, d+4,N+4,u+3 follows guaranteed
- If they stay down it hits grounded.
--- If they get hit grounded, you can throw another one (only escape is tech). If that second u/b+3 hits (anything other than tech, I believe), because of the range and weird orientation, you get ff+3 followup as a low wall hit.

As for the beefy low in HMS 4, it can now be followed by an u/b+3 into an immediate f+3+4. The u/b+3 is guaranteed and because they're "backwards," any tech after this is very compact and doesn't move much to the side... being backwards, I suspect if they stay down we might get u/b+3 again without them before able to get out... looks like MAYBE until they tech out of the u/b+3?
If they try to stand in this situation (after u/b+3), f+3+4 actually hits them in the back. You can SOMETIMES get WS+2,3 when you're at a weird angle, but normally it bounces them off the wall. However, if they turn to turn by holding B, they can turn but not block WS+2,3, giving a high wall splat. With a slighter angle you can WS+3,3 string without bouncing them off the wall (less forward movement?).

So basically, at wall, [HMS]4, u/b+3, f+3+4 > see what happens. At worst you are +4, middling option is if it hits and +7, and if they stayed grounded you continue to more damage.
... so it might be worth the risk, but we just have to remember that if they block HMS 4, we're going for a bit of a ride. =P


In a nutshell, for the main wall oki...
[f+4,3,3+4 into...
HMS] 4
or
[HMS] d~u/b+3

HMS 4
- They stand and block low = you are -22 (punished)
- They stay down = hit grounded, then dragon dash into mixup
- They stand and get hit = guaranteed u/b+3, then throw f+3+4
--- if they stay down = they get hit, u/b+3 again and throw f+3+4 again (repeat until they do something?)
--- if they tech = tech is compact and it connects
--- --- they block = you are +4 with them crouched (WS+2,3 or WS+2,4 for high wall or wall splat--trades with low jab, beats everything else)
--- --- they get hit = you are +8 (+9?)... have fun! You can now mixup with a slide and other things and still win on frames!
--- if they stand, it (back to the f+3+4 here) hits in the back...
--- --- WS+2,3 for high wall or WS+3,4 for wall splat, hits if they try turning with B (they turn but cannot block). However, if they don't turn, depending on the angle they can bounce of the wall and the second hits whiffs and they whiff punish you. At enough of an angle this bounce doesn't happen. WS+3,3,d+3,3 or WS+3,3,d/f+3,3 can be another option at less of an angle. If they're somewhat to Lee's right, WS+2,3 should still connect on both hits and give high wall, regardless of the bounce... if you think they'll stay back-turned (turn with d/b), u/f+4, ff+3 works. However, if they turn standing they can block the knee and punish. WS+4 is a general catch all option that leaves you plus and can't be punished even with the bounce.

u/b+3
- they stand and block = you are -13 (could be punished)
- they stand and crouch = follow-up mini combo of d+4,N+4,u+3
- they eat it = try u/b+3 again
--- they tech = you are safe on frames, can sometimes whiff punish because of distance if they tried to attack.
--- they eat the second one = ff+3 low wall hit follow-up

If you want to go straight to trying to get the second u/b+3, using b+4, u/b+3 as your wall combo will do more than b+2~f,N, f+4,3 (assuming you were going to leave the ender off to go for oki). If they don't tech, it's another 30 damage in your pocket. There is no stand-block option this way.

Last edited by Murakumo on Jan 5th, 2018 at 11:32

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Reserved #4

* Play style consideration and discussion within the system, tools, and opponents


Lee actually has a decent set of pokes at his disposal, both for counter hit and safety purposes. In general, counterhit tools are faster, but worse on frames (punishable, or -). His mid pokes are entirely safe on block. His lows are significantly safer than T6, but what you chose will still be determined by your opponent.

For example, FC,d/f+4 is -14, and FC,d/f+4~3,[HMS]qcb (watch out, requires special cancel with tight timing, and otherwise -16 with normal B), d/b+3+4, and sway+4 are-13. This is pretty great. A lot of characters won't punish you much off of this... in fact, some characters will only get WS+4.
... and then there's Kaz and Eddy. Kaz gets WS+1,2 and Eddy gets WS+1,3. Both get a full juggle. Against Eddy it's better to use the FC,d/f+4 version not canceled to HMS because it recovers crouching and hit i13 launcher is high. I would also recommend not cancelling it to HMS vs. Kaz since it can be launched either why, but remaining crouched keeps you safe from whiff punish electric.

What to do? We still have d/b+3, which is only -12 on block. While it seems that you're limiting your moveset quite a bit, it's intentional. Kaz still gets WS+4,4 and is left at - frames, and Eddy gets WS+4.

Similarly, if you are doing dragon dash / slide mixups, WS+2,3 is going to be -14 on block. You should be particularly careful with this one vs. Lars, Bryan, Xiao, Paul, and to a lesser extent, Mishimas. Lars and Bryan, Xiao, and Paul can get a full juggle every time.

... What to do? DD into cc~knee (I do this in like a Zangief SPD motion, which will also block for part of it in case they threw something out-- FC,d/f,d,D/F for dragon dash, then d/b,b,u/b,u,u/f+4.
- In this visual mixup, the move comes out in about the same time, still launches to a juggle (more damage actually), and is -13 on block, which means you won't get launched by Bryan or Lars (Maybe Leedy playing Kaz).

"But Murakumo, what about mixing with WS+2,4 for safety?"
WS+2,3 and WS+2,4 can't be chosen on reaction to the blocked/unblocked WS+2, so it's only even remotely useful for safety at the wall (unless you're willing to sacrifice damage to keep it "random" midstage). I also believe it can be fuzzy guarded to block the mid and duck the high. All this given, try to CC~knee if they have an i14 launcher (or at least a reliable one).


- open stage

What you do in open stage to an extent depends on what kind of stage you're playing on. If it's an infinite stage, my feeling is that your juggle options don't change drastically--basically opt for WR+3m4 instead of f+2,1 as an ender post-S!, and that's about it. If it's a stage with a wall and you are not yet to that wall, your goal is to get that that wall.

Poke. Punish. Win.

There is more in the following sections on vs. rushdown/offense and vs. turtle about what kinds of pokes to employ according to the situation.


- to wall
- wall game

Teh traps at wall
https://youtu.be/K34KlYBOZ14


- vs. rushdown/offense
- vs. turtle
- risk/reward discussion
- option selects

- Misc cancels and others...

d+3 alone is -17, but d+3~4,[HMS]B is -15 (not crouched though on recovery)

FC,d/f+4 is -14, FC,d/f+4~3,[HMS]B as above is at least -16, but FC,d/f+4~3,[HMS]qcb (with qcb in buffered recovery period) is -13

FC,d/f,d,D/F,f,f+3 (actually as D/F,f,N,f so you only go neutral once) is an important skill to build since it's the only way to mix a mid with slide at range, which could be important in a number of wake-up scenarios.

Normal mist step into f gives ff... i.e. f,N,F+3 gives mist step into dash into ff+3
This does not normally work out of cancelled mist steps. so 1,2~f,N,f+3 just gives f+3 (or mist+3 if you hit it too early). You can buffer a f into the recovery, though, making it like... 1,2~f,N, f, f+3 with the second f buffered in during the MS and the f+3 right as you recover (so you don't get MS+3). This makes b+2~f,N,ff+3 finishes possible, if tremendously hard (worthless though--same damage as BnB). One use for this is after 1,2~f,N as a punish. by doing 1,2~f,N,4*~f, f+3 (I use the 4 to help with timing and buffer it), you can get Lee's command throw out of the mist step, and fast enough that with good timing it will interrupt opponent even jabs if you had hit the 1,2~f,N. No phantom movement showing the throw, either (normally the mist step before dash makes it easier to see).


Mist trap study
https://youtu.be/rnViLJDp2OQ

Last edited by Murakumo on Jan 5th, 2018 at 11:45

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Shadow Force
Lone Wolf
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 306
From: England
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Just a couple notes

SSR 3+4 is now a mid

And the F+33333 string only launches after the 5th hit, so it'll always be 1 air hit before 4 does S!
Signature I'm losing the will to B!

I can juggle with one hand! Look! Look!
Mingriah
Make TZ Great Again
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1780
From: USA Oklahoma
PSN: mingriah
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
ssr 3+4? the one that looks like the end of 223? or the other kick? (ssl 3+4)
Signature Please; call me FreeChaolan

Apparently Eliza's not in TTT2 because drunk Japanese can go super saiyan.

that feel when...laggy TV
Shadow Force
Lone Wolf
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 306
From: England
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Yeah that one. Not only is it mid now, it's either -10 or 11. It seems to be the only version of that kick that is mid too.

I think this is an ok change, as it means no more mindless crouching from opponents. They'd have to actually pay attention to what kick has come out and act accordingly

Though as a whole, the move doesn't see much action anyway...
Signature I'm losing the will to B!

I can juggle with one hand! Look! Look!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks for the input and info, guys. Sorry it's still very much in a work-in-progress state. Life's been busy--will try to get more updated and filled once the game hits. =)

I'm also gonna split poking into two categories: When you think the opponent will attack, and when you think the opponent won't attack (so poking for counter vs. overall safety).
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Shadow Force
Lone Wolf
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 306
From: England
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Couple more notes

(2) (1) 4 is +10 on counter hit, giving us 1,2,4 or 1:3:3:3 guaranteed

After f~n+3,4 doing 4 u+3, b+2... requires no micro dashing or any kind of extra movement at all. Meaning we can go straight into b+2 carries from 4 u+3. This seems to only apply to that particular launcher though, unless I have missed something out
Signature I'm losing the will to B!

I can juggle with one hand! Look! Look!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks guys.

Ah cruel fate, the game opened up and my patch finishing downloading and installing only 5 minutes before I had to leave for work... I'll start testing the hell out of things as soon as I get home today.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
some juggles I found

https://youtu.be/G1cX0SXcmvE

edit: thought this was the other thread.

Last edited by Morninglord on Jun 2nd, 2017 at 07:41

Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
AZYG4LYFE
Play FFRK
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5392
From: United Kingdom
PSN: CKT_AZYG4LYFE
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Some notes I scribbled down as I did some pre day 1 testing.

d+3~4 on block is still -15

ssr+3+4 is indeed -11

In addition to 2,1,4, the move now recovers standing rather than crouched.

wr+3,4~3 blocked - HMS+2 trades with i15 hopkick, but interestingly, Lee's own b+2 (i14) can beat HMS+2....(how does one test frame data for stance transitions, I'm never actually sure of my results).

b+4 is -3 on block

ff+4 is -5 (jab after ff+4 trades with hopkick).

His range drive is either i15 or 16 (punished d/f+3,2,3 but not ws+2,3). Cannot be done from crouch unfortunately.


Something I found when playing around vs HMS+3, for a few matchups with high power crushes (Bryan ff+2, Steve FLK b+2? etc), if you find yourself poking with a string that has a low ender, you can confirm the low finish and they will take all the damage at no cost for you. For Lee, he only has 2,1,4. It's a bit situational and probably will be a rare situation in high level play.

Also damage comparison for our i10's

1:3:3:3 = 32 W! KND
1,2,4 = 26 BnB
2,1 = 18 +frames
1,2 = 16 +frames/ mist step
1:3:3 = 16 failed execution


I'll edit the respective posts at some point this weekend, if you're way labbing Murakumo.

AZ

Last edited by AZYG4LYFE on Jun 2nd, 2017 at 10:16

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Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
3>3 does not have as long of a delay window anymore, and thus HC window. need to check if it still jails at minimal delay.

Need to test f+2,1 and see if on HC they made it not duckable late in the delay.

b+2~f,N does more damage now. Used to be same as 2 in juggle, but it is now higher. means that b+2~f,N, f+4,3 is optimal at wall if you're going for the spike.

d+4,N+4,u+3 is another wall finish. 1 more damage than 4,3,4 and recovers quicker.

Solid 50/50 oki wall game is gone. I so sad.

If you punch parry to d/f+1,2,2 and they didn't turn (or they try to turn crouching so they get hit in the back), you get...
d/f+1,2,2,1, b+3,3~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+2~f,N, b+1:1~f,N,b,N+2,4, S!, FF+2,1 at max. =)
EDIT: b+3,3 here is techable. SAD FACE!


.... will try and edit a bit up this weekend if I can, and I need to figure out how to pull videos (I have a capture card, but I'm running PC instead of PS4, so I just need to run something for screen capture/recording).
I'm also won't be able to do quite as much work on this this weekend as I wished, just because I'm getting ready to move house, too. =/

Last edited by Murakumo on Jun 19th, 2017 at 06:54

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Do you have a nividia card mura? Just use shadowplay. Radeon cards have an equivalent. It's part of the drivers.

What do you mean by oki being gone?
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Yea, I have a 1080. I'll try and get Shadowplay set up then.

What I mean about the wall oki being gone is my go-to oki for years of BR/6, that I employed with enormous success.

I mean that d/f+1 won't re-wall now. f+3+4 will still give WS+3,(3)_WS+3,3 if they stayed down, and leave you +4 if they stand, but you don't have the d/f+1 rewall to really threaten with, because the system for standing up has changed. You could mix between a low that hits grounded and wakeup (HMS 4), but d/f+1 rewall was literally 0 risk, where HMS 4 carries a lot more risk.

The old wall oki (T6 days) was glorious. d/f+1 if you thought they would stand and confirm refloat or follow to other options if they stayed down, and if you THOUGHT they would stay down, f+3+4 to WS+3,3_WS+3,(3)... if they stand>blocked, it left you +4 anyway.
... Basically, in both cases before you had good reward with 0 risk, and could make them wade through several layers of defense before they even really got back to neutral.

So now we still have the spike, but they can wake by holding B it looks like and avoid any d/f+1 refloat shenanigans it seems. We can still cover a wake/don't wake and mid/low option, but not with layers of safety--just a lot more risk (get launched on block for HMS 4).

Essentially the change seems to be best reflected in this:
They have a chance to always stand, and they always have a chance to block upon standing.
... only d+3 still seems guaranteed so far, and it's not scary enough to warrant any mixups. It would be nice to find this to be wrong, and I hope we find something else really buff again, but this is how t seems to be playing out right now.
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3699
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Morninglord, are you able to use Shadowplay yet? I have the game ready drivers from Nvidia for T7, and have been playing, but it's not showing up and scan as a game in my Geforce Experience application. I noticed it's not showing up here as a Shadowplay-supported game yet, either: http://www.geforce.com/geforce-expe...supported-games

Any ideas for solution, or is there a fix you are using?
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Murakumo
Morninglord, are you able to use Shadowplay yet? I have the game ready drivers from Nvidia for T7, and have been playing, but it's not showing up and scan as a game in my Geforce Experience application. I noticed it's not showing up here as a Shadowplay-supported game yet, either: http://www.geforce.com/geforce-expe...supported-games

Any ideas for solution, or is there a fix you are using?


I don't use the most recent shadowplay, because the most recent one is a crock of shit so I rolled back to a previous version and used someones dll hacks to gut all the forced login/ force upgrade bullshit. I'd forgotten how annoying the more recent version is. This one works fine so I'm just sitting on this old version lol.

But one thing that should work is setting it to record the desktop. It will then record everything you do on the desktop, including any games you are playing.

That video I posted earlier in the thread was recorded with that old shadowplay version. If you can't get the new one to work at all, let me know, I'll try to track down what you have to do to go back to the old stable working version that has never failed me. It's a bit complicated and I can't remember where I found it.

I know a couple of other recording applications. I'd recommend obs, but learning how to use it is a bit of a commitment. Stay away from fraps, because the files are too big, and you don't need that quality just to show us combos.

Originally posted by Murakumo
Yea, I have a 1080. I'll try and get Shadowplay set up then.

What I mean about the wall oki being gone is my go-to oki for years of BR/6, that I employed with enormous success.

I mean that d/f+1 won't re-wall now. f+3+4 will still give WS+3,(3)_WS+3,3 if they stayed down, and leave you +4 if they stand, but you don't have the d/f+1 rewall to really threaten with, because the system for standing up has changed. You could mix between a low that hits grounded and wakeup (HMS 4), but d/f+1 rewall was literally 0 risk, where HMS 4 carries a lot more risk.

The old wall oki (T6 days) was glorious. d/f+1 if you thought they would stand and confirm refloat or follow to other options if they stayed down, and if you THOUGHT they would stay down, f+3+4 to WS+3,3_WS+3,(3)... if they stand>blocked, it left you +4 anyway.
... Basically, in both cases before you had good reward with 0 risk, and could make them wade through several layers of defense before they even really got back to neutral.

So now we still have the spike, but they can wake by holding B it looks like and avoid any d/f+1 refloat shenanigans it seems. We can still cover a wake/don't wake and mid/low option, but not with layers of safety--just a lot more risk (get launched on block for HMS 4).

Essentially the change seems to be best reflected in this:
They have a chance to always stand, and they always have a chance to block upon standing.
... only d+3 still seems guaranteed so far, and it's not scary enough to warrant any mixups. It would be nice to find this to be wrong, and I hope we find something else really buff again, but this is how t seems to be playing out right now.


Regarding oki, I think that's what the ub+3 is for. To hurt them like hell if they just lie there or do anything other than quick stand. And if they are quickstanding, they aren't blocking low. (Also probably why f+4,3 can go into hms)

That hits grounded, btw. I set the cpu to stay on the ground, waited a while,and it smacked it for 17. hms4 also hits for 17. So the choice is a ground hitting mid or a ground hitting low. They can block either if they choose right, but they have to choose, waiting just gets them hurt.

I agree that its kinda annoying though, but it matches the anti oki stuff in this game. At least they can't just instant recover out of f+4,3!

ANd yeah, they get to stand. But they don't get to casually stand and block the low everytime. ub+3 is too fast to see. Lee's previous ground hitting mids were much slower.

I just tested it and if they come up crouching vs ub+3, you get d+4n 4u+3 for 48 damage. :O

edit: re 3,3 at fastest input
I just tested it and it still jails.

Last edited by Morninglord on Jun 3rd, 2017 at 12:04

Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.
Drake the Demon
____________________
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Posts: 3540
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey Murakumo,
if you want to record T7 gameplay from PC, you can try OBS. It's free and very light on memory usage. Full HD too.
https://obsproject.com/

Good luck with the guide!
Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2496
PSN: Morninglord
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
OBS can also be set up to use nividias inbuilt recording chip. That's the set aside part of the video card used to record with shadowplay. So it shouldn't cause much of an fps hit.

The only reason I use shadowplay is because its always on recording your last twenty minutes, so I don't have to worry about it. I just hit alt +f10 whenever I do something I want to save.
Signature Zhan: The real enemy is yourself.

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