T7FR Tier Thread 4: NamCop Nerf Sights on Who...?

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Dr. Cola
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#21 “Quote” Edit Post
I thought it was pretty hilarious how strong Akuma was during release.
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Azaael
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
The only company I think that ever balanced something on difficulty has been VF in terms of Akira only. VF is not a particularly hard game execution wise but Akira is probably the hardest of the bunch and he's pretty much been SS tier for almost his entire career. I'm not sure if they do this on purpose though, so hence 'I think balanced on difficulty.'

And here's a question. Maybe it deserves its own thread but eh, it's about tiers so maybe not.

How DO people want a fighting game balanced? It's pretty clear everyone here has their own little ideas of what makes The Perfect Game in terms of balance, I'd be curious to hear what it should be.

Me? If everyone can hang, the game is fine. That's it, end of story. Doesn't matter one bit whose on top and whose not or who the devs like or whatever reasoning or difficulty, if everyone can hang, the game is fine. I've played high, low and mid characters and will continue to. If something gets bad enough I grab an SSS tier or something(that's how I actually ended up really liking Gato in KoF XI, FWIW, to the point where I started using him more in Garou and everything. I mostly liked mid tiers, but wanted ONE good asswhooping on my team so picked him as a pocket and ended up happy I did and he became a sub.)

Some(not only here, it's not an uncommon argument) feel difficulty should equal balance, since they think effort:reward gets skewed otherwise. While it looks fine on paper, I don't agree in practice since difficulty is relative, some people are better at some shit than others(also at general online rando levels, about all characters have scrubby shit they can get away with in ranked, which doesn't wash at a competitive level, but I think most here know that.) That and it doesn't matter since all it does is make the high end stacked one way after stuff shakes out. If they re-buffed, say, Hwoarang, Kazuya and Steve(all three characters who need generally heavier chops) to a hypothetical SSS tier, all that would do is potentially start to stack top 8s(maybe people of this mindset are fine with a top 8 being all Hwo/Kaz/Steve. Occasionally this method ends up with a random counterpick sneaking in. At the very least i notice this leads to heavy pocketing of said characters and they end up used a lot anyway. I should edit to say this assumes said characters are buffed to a ridiculous level. If they're, say, just S or something, it may still favor them somewhat but not as much.)

Would some prefer the 'Random' method where they just sorta shuffle the tiers around a few times a year? Would some prefer an A+ to A- balance, where anyone S or higher is nerfed to A+, and anyone lower than A- buffed up to said tier, and anyone already there left alone? The musical tiers thing I know there are people who are fans of because it just flips the meta on its head a lot, but for me it gets a bit tiring, though at least it's benefit is that there's less general character whining since everyone gets a shot(though there tends to be whining about the game in general.) The homogenized A tier for everyone is certainly balanced but takes away some fun underdog wins and can actually get a bit boring.

I'm curious since damned if FR isn't actually, with the exception of like Gigas and Chloe, a pretty solidly balanced game with a lot of variety in top 16s and fairly varied winners(save...Jack), but jesus it feels people like to cry about it as if it were 3rd Strike every time a tier list comes out.

Do people just want their mains buffed and characters they have problems with nerfed? people can be honest.

Last edited by Azaael on Dec 27th, 2016 at 21:16

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they named it matterhorn because lili's uphill battle in tekken is the highest mountain to climb.
Fernandito
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
would certainly like scrub characters like dragunov, Leo etc nerfed, and others who are difficult to win with like Kazuya, Hei, Gigas or Hwoarang (and Lei if he returns) buffed. Scrubs get punished; skilled ones rewarded. The nature of things. Punish the n00b. Reward effort. Life is hard

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Back on topic, I guess Dotoring, the green arcade player I mean must be God then according to this latest tier shitlist. Last time I saw him last week or so he was purple rank already with his Gigas, and he really really stomped one of those typical scrubby Leo players for good, who was also purple rank.

One of the players I respect the most right now is assellas, even when he plays lili or leo. omg that guy really knows testing your limits as a tekken player, I'm pretty sure. So many laughs with the glorious beating he delivered to OnlyPractice. Delicious
Climbing Dragon
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#24 “Quote” Edit Post
lol at Leo and Dragunov being scrub characters.
Signature Originally posted by MysticwinD
Fixed tier list for Lili players only needs 2 tiers, one tier with all the chars better than Lili and a second one with just Lili.
Raccoonus
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Chasing a perfectly balanced game is downright impossible, especially with a cast as diverse as Tekken, with each character as deep and complex as they are in Tekken. You can't just make 6 shotoclones and call it a day.

All you can do is reduce outliers, make sure nobody is drastically lower than average or drastically above average, and so far FR has done a pretty solid job at reducing as many of those cases as possible. Even as strong as the upper tier is this time around (and everybody has a different top tier list) not even Akuma can get away with murder now.

This is all off of observation and speculation but aside from some quality of life improvements to the lower half of the roster and a few tweaks to the upper end I don't see what else Namco can really change.
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Fernandito
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#26 “Quote” Edit Post
^^They can nerf Akuma more. He's so ugly
Raccoonus
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
I think what I would take a look at, are any characters with really high damage wall combos in addition to highly damaging juggles AND good wall carry, I don't think anyone should excel at all 3 of those without some Achilles' Heel to keep them in check.
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deadcat
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
Achieving a perfectly balanced game is impossible, but there's nothing wrong with aiming to get as close as possible to that. One step towards it is to fix the clear imbalances within the roster, and there STILL ARE some obvious imbalances right now.

Its undeniable that Dragunov has been getting buff after buff. Since no explanation was ever given (and its unlikely Bamco ever will), we can only speculate. The 'Nobi theory' isn't meant to be taken seriously by anyone with emotional fortitude. I play Dragunov myself, and I can't help but giggle everytime Bamco gifts me with more crutches patch after patch.

IMO Gigas isn't hopeless like SF5 Zangief but he's still quite mediocre overall. That plus the hitbox issues that were highlighted earlier.

Speaking of Lars, real life Lars needs a bigger buff than Tekken Lars right now to be honest. Tekken Lar's journey on the Tekken tier list mirrors that of RLL on the RL tier list. RLL went from being a fearsome, PC-disregarding alpha Viking on debut to a domesticated, 21st century herbivorous househusband who is happy to be bossed around by robotic females running on neofeminist programming. RLL needs to stop deliberately losing to Shaheen for fear of being labeled an religious bigot and stop walking into Shaheen's rage drive in the hopes that his act of generosity will convince the latter to do it less in future.

This is deadcat reporting from Swedistan. Over to you Connie.
PreezNT
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#29 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by deadcat
Achieving a perfectly balanced game is impossible, but there's nothing wrong with aiming to get as close as possible to that. One step towards it is to fix the clear imbalances within the roster, and there STILL ARE some obvious imbalances right now.

Its undeniable that Dragunov has been getting buff after buff. Since no explanation was ever given (and its unlikely Bamco ever will), we can only speculate. The 'Nobi theory' isn't meant to be taken seriously by anyone with emotional fortitude. I play Dragunov myself, and I can't help but giggle everytime Bamco gifts me with more crutches patch after patch.

IMO Gigas isn't hopeless like SF5 Zangief but he's still quite mediocre overall. That plus the hitbox issues that were highlighted earlier.

Speaking of Lars, real life Lars needs a bigger buff than Tekken Lars right now to be honest. Tekken Lar's journey on the Tekken tier list mirrors that of RLL on the RL tier list. RLL went from being a fearsome, PC-disregarding alpha Viking on debut to a domesticated, 21st century herbivorous househusband who is happy to be bossed around by robotic females running on neofeminist programming. RLL needs to stop deliberately losing to Shaheen for fear of being labeled an religious bigot and stop walking into Shaheen's rage drive in the hopes that his act of generosity will convince the latter to do it less in future.

This is deadcat reporting from Swedistan. Over to you Connie.


As a swede I can't help but to laugh at the last part. Also a reason why I've never liked Lars. Looks nothing like a swedish viking so I'm glad that they nerfed him to trash and I hope they nerf him more so I don't need to see him anymore.
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SilverSoul
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#30 “Quote” Edit Post
I think Tekken kind of DOES balance characters based on their execution difficulty, necessary execution that is(because every character has something that is really hard to do, but not everyone need that stuff in their gameplan). I mean Mishimas were top tier in almost every tekken game, Steve was SUPER good in tk4, tk5, tk6 and now tk7, so basically every main tekken game he was in. Hwoarang has quite unique playstyle, and the way it functions... he's going to have faults, but they do try to make him good, without outright making him broken, and i think it's really hard to do in his case, because as i said he has very specific gameplay, of course they could just give him few tools that are very good in neutral and have him play that game, but that just wouldn't be Hwoarang, his game resolves around his flamingos, that's what's unique about him, that's how he should be played. That is something which happened to Ling i believe, i mean i don't play Ling at all, but by just watching her, her gameplan difference in tk7 seems huge compared to her before. Before Ling was this crazy tricky character, that you need to have a lot of creativity with, she was in your face doing some shit all the time, trying to force you to make a mistake, crush something or whatever, she was on adrenaline burst all the time. And the thing about her was that her stuff was fairly risky, while she wasn't getting that much off her stuff, when successful, that was the balance of the character. Now alot of Lings simply do that 1 simple aop mixup with a safe-ish low that knds into a strong oki situation and a mid launcher that is safe, or even worse, they just fkin backdash all the time, they play her like a fkin Mishima, moving around and using that standing 3 i think it is, which is a 14i launcher that has quite a decent range and is safe. Sure she can be played like crazy still, but why?, why would you try to play Ling in a Ling way, if she now has a Mishima and a Leo in her.

That one thing i really don't like about their balance of tk7. I always thought 1 very big advantage SF has over Tekken is character archetypes, characters there are really different from each other, playing completely different games, i remember watching Seth vs Gif at capcup, and it was hilarious, like fkin completely different type of chars fighting against each other, Seth would do this ranges attacks, poking all the time from the distance, where Gief couldn't do anything, taking 80% of Gief's life in like 40-50 seconds, then Gief got in literally once, one read and it was over, it ended in 5 seconds after Gief hit him once, and Seth had like full health(health is different for characters in sf, and Seth has one of the lowest i believe). It was entertaining as hell to watch even for somebody like me, who never ONCE in his life played sf4.
I'm one of the ppl who really enjoys the existance of characters like Yoshi, Raven, Eddy, Lei, Ling, even tho i don't play them. Even tho i might not know the fk those characters are doing quite often, and get rekt by them, i enjoy playing against them, i enjoy learning the gaps in their stuff and then punishing them after, i enjoy watching others play them, i enjoy watching others try to deal with them.
Diversity is fun, but i guess just fkin give Yoshi ewgf, Lei jet upper and let's be done with it. Let's make everyone that movement based whiff punishing 5-top-moves-only style of character, or really simple and straight forward mixup character.
As if Tekken characters weren't similar enough. And not only that, they even made backdash universal... that's fkin insane, what's next?, sidestep?, why not, i would believe them doing something like that, let's make everything and everyone the same!, that's namco's new slogan.
And that's not only about those characters, everything feels more like that now, 1-2 really good moves for you to just spam alll the time. Were Leo's in ttt2 also b1,4 whole match, and only that?. Because i was watching Koreans do that literally 5-6 times in a row and WIN, even agaianst ppl like Knee. Somebody here laughed at Leo being called a scrub char, well have you watched Leo being played as of late?, have you seen what certain ppl do with her, and win while doing it, for fuck sake, i felt like i was watching friggin Jinpachi when Leo was playing. I don't even know what they changed about her so much. But they surely did something.

I... don't like the direction balance team is going, at all.... It's not only about characters being viable, and there not being D tier or anything, if it was only about that you might as well give all the characters the same movelist.
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Abigan2K
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#31 “Quote” Edit Post
i think fighting games shouldnt be balanced based on execution... hwo for example has been hard to use nearly forever except the killing hawk days of ttt2.0 which harada considered a bug... (hwo has never been top except only recently) so i dont think the devs are balancing against this

i do remember harada saying that they are balancing based on story tho where certain characters who are supposed to be strong are left strong

i really believe that fighting games should have a lower level execution because the appeal at least for me is to read your opponents movements and patterns (fighting your opponent vs fightig against the game or against your execution)
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#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Abigan2K
i do remember harada saying that they are balancing based on story tho where certain characters who are supposed to be strong are left strong

Wait so how would tier lists be sorted out? Because right now would mean that Xiaoyu is stronger than Mishimas,Dragunov is god,as well as Bryan ,Lars is a complete weakass.....but opinions can vary in terms of position.

I know I keep bringing her up,but Alisa is all over the place in terms of tier lists and has kind of always been: if Knee's tier list stands as the canon one,then Alisa is a weakass story wise. If Kari's tier list is the one story related,then she can rival tye Mishimas.

Positions change all the time in tier lists so we can't have consistency.

I'm sorry but I cannot see it.
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HarveyBirdman
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#33 “Quote” Edit Post
You can't keep asking for Akuma nerfs, that defeats the whole purpose of him being in the game. From what I've seen, even though the recent tier lists have a ton of variance, he's not even top tier. Just leave Akuma alone, he shouldn't be a mid tier character, and he definitely shouldn't be low tier.

Also buff Josie, I never understand why people don't want to admit their character is top tier (cough Knee cough). I want my life to be as easy as possible.
Fernandito
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#34 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Abigan2K
i really believe that fighting games should have a lower level execution because the appeal at least for me is to read your opponents movements and patterns (fighting your opponent vs fightig against the game or against your execution)
there I was thinking almost everybody who left sf2 and samurai shodown/samurai shodown2 back then did it in order to play something superior and different.., i mean t1, 2 and 3.

If tekken has always carried the elitist label, then so be it. Be proud of it instead of taking a constant approach to this in your opinion "problem" just out of guilt toward the casual and the n00b. We all started playing tekken as casuals/n00bs once, and here we stand. At the verge of extinction?. Ok so what. We have enjoyed the franchise long enough at this point, so let it vanish with all of its glory retained instead of dumbing it down to the core just because the lazy of mind can't get to grips with the game. There still exist street fighter and mortal kombat for a reason, so let'em go back playing those also wonderful games

Those who can't get good at the game (versus other players) is their own business, not game's. Even then you don't need to be good against other human players to love the game. A n00b or a casual could very well like the game waay more than us do regardless his skill level. I know this to be true because I myself have already gone through this more than once
Mav
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#35 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Yo'Goodfella
If Kari's tier list is the one story related, then she can rival the Mishima's.


I can tell you right now he based it on personal experience playing against each character and not for canonical reasons, just saying.
Dr. Cola
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#36 “Quote” Edit Post
Akuma is supposed to be strong. He's a very strong character in the Street Fighter lores.
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Fernandito
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#37 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Mav
I can tell you right now he based it on personal experience playing against each character and not for canonical reasons, just saying.
The vision of the director must be respected. He makes the game as he sees fit, and based on subjectivity. In other words, he balance things out by heart through personal experience, and despite of this resulting in several insconsistences/imbalances here and there, It's also a beautiful thing to consider, and eventually try. I disagree with a lot of things he does, but at least I know I can get to understand this, the underlying truth in all of his work, or any other's.

Harada does the right way imo after all. He's human, a subjective being, and that's good. Even the arrogant within me loves this, because I know for sure I'd be doing right the same exact thing.

Tekken is beautiful due to its complexity, and of course due that character or chararacters we indentify ourselves with, or just like for some reason. That was the beginings of the franchise about, and so shall its end be soon enough

Originally posted by Dr. Cola
Akuma is supposed to be strong. He's a very strong character in the Street Fighter lores.
Yes, but here he has to deal with Mishima Gods, so he shouldn't be that strong in tekken then
Yo'Goodfella
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#38 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Mav
I can tell you right now he based it on personal experience playing against each character and not for canonical reasons, just saying.


That's why ranking characters in strength as they are in the story is hard to believe. There are different opnions.
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Dr. Cola
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#39 “Quote” Edit Post
I honestly can't wait for this game to come out.

I have never been as hyped for T7 as back when T6 came out.
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Azaael
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#40 “Quote” Edit Post
Its undeniable that Dragunov has been getting buff after buff. Since no explanation was ever given (and its unlikely Bamco ever will), we can only speculate. The 'Nobi theory' isn't meant to be taken seriously by anyone with emotional fortitude. I play Dragunov myself, and I can't help but giggle everytime Bamco gifts me with more crutches patch after patch.


To touch on this, while i DO think that people here are generally okay on it, I have seen people *seriously believe this shit* when it comes to fighting games, right now I'm seeing 'rumors' that Capcom made Akuma OP in SFV because they knew a bunch of Japanese players like him. Being the internet I think there are some people who actually feel this way. I even throw some jokes at the direction('they can't figure out how to nerf Jack right!')

As for the forever OGs vs. everyone else I personally think it's the old guard who needs to evolve, really, and I say that as an old guard who was playing fighting games since before a portion of the current players were even born. If people can't accept the fact that games are getting somewhat easier in execution, play the old hard ones. If OGs want to keep their 'hard' games(and mind you, the games of the '90s were not hard, IME the execution barrier didn't start getting more extreme until the '00s), nothing is stopping people from holding their Old Hard Game side tournaments or clubs. If people don't like the new game, it's fine, but this is where they're going.

This isn't just fighting games, this isn't even VIDEO games. In the tabletop community there is a large contingent of old guard who find the new games 'too easy' or 'too forgiving' and they were better when a kobold could randomly kill you with a crit at level 3, let alone level 1. Hey, cool, and they have entire clubs dedicated to them. Hell I prefer Shadowrun 2e and 3e so that's what we play. Doesn't stop a select few from complaining about the new ones of course, many a grognard rambling about the good old days of Fantasy Vietnam peppers many forums.

to touch on the concept of a 'scrub character:-IMO, these are characters who enable an intermediate player to get a staggeringly high amount of wins vs. people who are several steps better than they are(squeezing out an occasional win is fine, but a very high amount in a DM is another).Basically if your general 'A- Tier' player can do this vs. a player several levels above them, in an offline(or excellent connection) situation, AND the other player knows the matchup, then there might be a bit of a scrub factor.

However, this is subject as for some it means 'characters I don't like', and for others it's 'anyone high tier' and yet others it's 'Anyone without a just frame or a bunch of stances.' I DO think again most characters, regardless of barrier, have some moves/strings that can be considered sort of scrubby but usually more in a middling online scenario where they can be easily abused.

That being said, Xiao is an interesting case because this is a case where *her mains* are speaking out against her in rather high numbers. But in this case, I know a few Xiao fans who want to drop her if she doesn't change since while they're digging the high tier aspect they don't like that it came at the price of everything they liked about the character to begin with(tricksy stuff traded for 50/50 and random crush abuse.) I don't play her but at least here I can see some issue because when a character's fans start speaking out, there may be a problem.

I do think there are some balance discrepancies in the game, sure, but I don't think they're too hard to take care of. I tend to err toward buffing the low over nerfing the high unless the high legit have like a shitload of 7-3 matchups or something.

I can see some concern for homogenizing though.

i really believe that fighting games should have a lower level execution because the appeal at least for me is to read your opponents movements and patterns (fighting your opponent vs fightig against the game or against your execution)


Yeah, I tend to think this too: more about the mind games one plays and strength of one's fundamentals. But yeah, there are people who think it should be the execution barrier. I don't agree with it but it's there.
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I scribbled a Tekken Retrospective.
Originally posted by Kane:
they named it matterhorn because lili's uphill battle in tekken is the highest mountain to climb.

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