Capo Flowcharts (post yours here)

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lizanias
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
For fun and help people develop better mind games.

Here's 1... the b+1 flowchart.

http://imgur.com/eUNBahi

Check the latest's post to see latest flowcharts I've gathered from this thread:

Last edited by lizanias on Aug 27th, 2014 at 04:51

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Ayos Mishima
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Maybe I'm stupid but I don't understand the "Enemy thinks you'll do b1 again Then try to CH?" part.. can you break that down command wise?
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lizanias
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Ayos Mishima
I don't understand the "Enemy thinks you'll do b1 again Then try to CH?" part.. can you break that down command wise?


When you spam b+1 repeatedly your opponent can interrupt your b+1 with a fast move after blocking the first one, because b+1 is -8 on block.

As seen in this video http://youtu.be/h83qxMjC58E?t=20m45s


So in the flowchart I mentioned, people should stop spamming once the opponent start trying to interrupt your next b+1....then react to your enemy's move.
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CaCarmen
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
In all seriousness, having some (real) flowcharts developed is pretty important for any character, including Capos. Its something we could talk about more.
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lizanias
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm planning to update the b+1 flowchart with more mixups. However I need to sum up the things I've found first(the one I'll write below) before I can make a flowchart.


Here are my notes on my latest findings.

b+1,4,3+4
Loses to: ssl or ssr, but better to block with neutral guard. And lose to backdash, and hold back
Wins against: attempt at CH

b+1,4,3,3+4
Loses to: ssl or ssr and blocking obviously. But it doesn't whiff
Wins against: attempt at CH

b+1,4~b, HSP 4
Loses to: blocking, ssl, backdash
Wins against: attempts at CH

b+1,4~b, HSP 3, RLX
Loses to: attempt at CH, ssl or ssr
Wins against: back dash because they can't escape, blocking because they can't punish Chreddy after blocking the HSP 3.

b+1,4~b, HSP 3~d, RLX
Loses to: attempt at CH, ssl or ssr. But it's way harder to punish Chreddy after sidestepping HSP 3~d
Wins against: back dash because they can't escape, blocking because it's more difficult to punish their HSP 3~d. If you guess it wrong you'll get CH'd by the last kick

b+1,4~b, HSP d+4.
Loses to: attempt at CH, ssl or ssr(but can't float Chreddy afterwards)
Wins against: back dash, blocking because can't Chreddy afterwards,

b+1, b+1
Loses to: attempts at CH, back dash
Wins against: ssl and ssr

b+1, d+4
Loses against: attempts at CH, low parry, block
Wins against: ssl and ssr, back dash

b+1, d/f+4
Loses against: attempts at CH, low parry, block, ssl and ssr
Wins against: back dash

b+1, d+3~4
Loses against: attempts at CH, low parry, block,
Wins against: back dash, ssl and ssr

b+1, long throw(e.g f+1+3)
Loses against: attempts at CH, crouching opponent
Wins against: block, back dash, ssl and ssr

b+1, d/f+1,1
Loses against: attempts at CH, ssr
Wins against: crouching opponent, back dash, ssl
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CaCarmen
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
That b+1 is a really good move

ss+4 on hit into HSP gives a lot of options, nothing on block though. Also long throw works really well after db+3,4 on hit.
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yoloswag
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
nice flowchart. I made my own from db3

db3
-18 on block -2 on hit
-nothing special

db3~b into hsp
-not so good, eg. hsp 4 looses to fast ch hits even on block. jabs will miss if ur opponent is reckless.

db3~B into ws
-leaves eddy in far away. the opponent cant punish eddys db3 due to retreat with ws4
-multiple options, can punish whiffed attacks(eg. ws4) with eg. hsp4

db34
-NC low high. the second hit causes ch combo. if the opponent tries to do eg ws4, eddy wins. can be launch ducked.
-between the 1st and 2nd hit ws4 will interrupt the second hit but kinda hard.

db33
-low mid. -15 +3. the mixup for the high option.
-cant be sidestepped.
-between the 1st and 2nd hit ws4 will interrupt the second hit.

db3db4
-lowlow, safe. the second hit can be parryed.

mid extensions
-same as fc1+21+2
-and same as d3~3. the move is a fakeout. it cancels the second low into a mid launcher.

low extension
-safe, can be parryed.

db3n3
- its low, mid. the mid can be be cancelled into rlx stance.

the db3 moveis really good, thanks to db34 counterhitlauncher.
forest16
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
The general flowchart seems to be:

1. Any poke

2. df+2
CaCarmen
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Some custom strings off the top of my head:

d+4 (opponent retaliates with high) duck jab FC d+4 - This works a lot of certain people. After a duck jab (esp one on CH) FC d+4 tracks your opponents sidestep and backstep, and is fast enough to hit your opponent as they start a hopkick. FC d+4 is realistically only going to be punished by a ws+4, but at full range a backdash causes certain ws+4 punishes to whiff.

HSP 2 (hit) (opponent ducks) ws+4 df+3_f+3 Normally, df+3 and f+3 are steppable after ws+4... but if the opponent gets hit by ws+4 while ducking, it seems very hard for them to move. This is pretty important and I'd like to look more into similar situations...

standing 4 Raw tag Standing 4 gives great range on block and hit, a raw tag can only be punished if your opponent runs in. By mixing up between 4, backdash, 4, enter RLX, you can keep your opponents on thier toes and make it very hard for them to know when you want to tag. ws+4 might lead to similar stuff.

df+1 (block) 1,3 df+1 is only -2 on block so a i10 jab beats mids, if your opponent likes retaliating with mids this sort of stuff can work.

ss+4 (both hits) d+4 / single jab d+4_d+3 Keeps your opponent pins down if they try to hopkick, rodeo throw also works pretty well.

Against Bob players who go for b+2,2 (that mh string), make sure to HSP tilt right, this is the first example I've seen of the direction of HSP tilt making a difference.

ff+3~b (as in RLX 2,f+3~b) works very, VERY well at the wall thanks to pushback.

db+3+4 (hit) Rodeo counts as a combo in Practice Mode O_o

Hmm, all I can think of at the moment...
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ArtOfWar
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
I need to read all of this stuff. I have a really hard time dealing with Christie players. I hate when they go into RLX stance and do all that crazy breakdance shit. Like I feel as though I'm constantly having to space myself out and whiff punish them.

I studied Christie's moves and I generally know how she works but I don't understand the whole Christie flowchart. I always lose to Vanquisher+ Chreddy players, part of why I can't get past Pugilist.
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ArtOfWar
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Can I get an update on this Capo chart?
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LuizWsp
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Well, I have some info on capos, I'm not sure if I can call them Flowcharts, but flowcharts are definitely a part of it. I gathered this info from watching capo players (mostly Jundding and Slips), playing myself, and from practice mode. I wrote it for myself, so excuse me if it's a little messy.

Bread and butter for capos:

Basic flowchart for close up combat, after a certain move (from you or the opponent):

Standing Punishers (awful):
+10: 1,2 or 1,2,4 mix ups
+12: f2,1
+14: b1 or df2
+16: df3+4
+19: qcf3
+23 and up: f4,3+4; ff4

FC punishers:
+11: ws4 (worst ws4 in the game. No KND, low damage, awful tracking, no float skills, nothing good about it)
+13: ws1,3 (-14 on block and leaves you in RLX so any move up to i14 will float you and moves up to 28 frames will hit you. Also, it's a high, so beware of it. Still, at i13 and the long range makes it one of the best moves in the game )
+15: ws2 (used to punish RC moves, cause ws1,3 won't hit them. Doesnít work on the wall and long pushback moves)
+19: ws3 (used to punish RC moves, cause ws1,3 won't hit them and it's better than ws2. It punishes all the low staggering moves such as Law and Baek db4)

Back turned punishers:
df3+4 or b3,3

Whiff punishers:
Qcf3, df3+4, df2 and 1,2, it depends on what they whiff and how quick you can react. Qcf3 works great on tag crashes and raw tags since it can either launch and float.

"Special punishers":

Qcf3 and ws3 will punish these moves that I know of to be very hard to be punished by other characters:
Asuka b3
Eddy df3+4 (uf3,3)
Paul ff2,2
Kuma ff2
Jun b2,3
Lars df3,3
Devil Jin, Angel and Ogre U4 and u4
Alisa b3+4
Ogre db2 even from far away

Ws1,3 will punish these mids that are usually not counted among the "launch punishable" moves:
Heihachi df1,2 (+13)
Steve ff2 (+13)
Hwoarang 4,4,3 (RFF 4,3 and RFS 2,4,3) (+15 to +9)
Eddy d4,3 (+14)

Special situations:
Dealing with rlx from capos, AOP from Ling, Zafina and etc, it's nice to remember that df2 tracks and hits very, very low. Df2 will hit rlx and all AOP tricks, everytime, given you have enough range (they can't go under you).

Punishing other capos:
Uf3,3: qcf3
Uf3,3+4: low parry, or interrupt with ws2 and ws3, you can't get a floater.
Uf3,d: If you crouched, ws2 or ws3. If you are standing, b3,3, d4 or df2
B3,3; ws1,3 or d3~3: b3,3.
Rlx4~3: low parrying the second hit is the most wise choice, but you may go for a ws3 sometimes, but HSP4 may hit you.
Float and general HSP negative moves: df2, qcf3 and b3,3

Note: sometimes it is worth to trade something guaranteed for an uncertain, but more valuable option. For example, trading a +12 f2,1 (28 dmg, +2 on hit) for a rodeo spin is a good option sometimes, and trading a ws4 for a FCdf4 at the wall may bring even better results. Changing some guaranteed okis for a better positioning at the wall is another god example.

Situations where nothing is guaranteed:

Around from +9 to +5 frame advantage:
15%- Grabs (especially Cristie's grabs and rodeos, don't let them keep using -9 stuff and get away with it. Lars uf4? Grab him. Jin b2,1? Grab him)
15%- df2 (tracks everything in this frame range, hits people who duck, launches people who attack, nice mix with grabs and lows)
15%- d3~4 (tracks a lot, highs crushes, 20 dmg, +3 on hit, -13 on block)
15%- ss3+4 (when you ssr, it tracks to your left and vice versa, but it's unlikely you will get punished and it's a mid launcher)
15%- uf3 mix ups (after using a lot of df2's and d3~4's, they won't even try to ss, so you can use a very good mix up like this)
15%- back dash (and brace for a whiff such as a hopkick after a ss4)
5%- ss4 (also tracks both sides, not so much dmg, they may block the second hit so no frame advantage, but if they donít, you get a good mix up)
5%- raw rlx (when you need a lot of dmg, you don't want half measures, high risk high reward)

Around +4 frames til -2 frames:
25%- backdash (back dash and learn how the opponent reacts. Does he try to interrupt with a jab or a mid, does he ss, does he backdash? Keep an eye out for whiffs to punish)
20%- df2 (it's always a good time for df2, it's fast, excellent hit box, tracks both sides on short frames and launches. It may be beaten by a good ss or sw when in negative frames)
10%- ss3+4 (evades pretty well, adjust to the wall, tracks, launches and it's hard to punish, but not as fast and safe as previous options)
10%- duck (ws1,3 is one of the best moves in the game. Use it)
10%- jabs and df1 (check the opponent and keep the pressure going)
10%- raw rlx (high risk, high reward)
5%- b1,4 (not as good as df2 in this situation, doesnít track as much and it's more vulnerable do a backdash/sw, however, the dmg sure pays off
5%- d4 (it's always a good idea to use this low. It's fast, tracks pretty well for short frames, high crushes and annoys the opponent a lot)
5%- 3 (homing safe high move, launches on CH and has an extension)

Around -2 to -9:
50%- backdash (best backdash in the roster, use it more often than anything else and be patient)
20%- random ducks (terrible standing punishers and awesome FC punishers make random ducks a terrific option. It's always a big risk, but punishing jab whiffs and -13 lows such as bob/jin db4 is a game changer)
10%- jabs / FC jabs (they can turn the frames to your side, it's kinda risky tho)
10%- b2 and other evading moves like db3+4 or db1+2 (watch for how they pressure you and react accordingly)
5%- d4_d4,3 (very fast, high crushes, NCC, good damage on the two hits, but very risky)
5%- b1,4 (though it's unlikely you will interrupt them, the huge dmg pays off when it happens)

Approaching flowchart:
- 30% approach and block (see what they do)
- 30% approach and backdash (fish a whiff)
- 10% approach and backdash and duck (ws1,3 will be your option here)
Remaining 30% are divided into:
- grabs
- d3~4 (unseable low, tracks pretty good, 20 dmg and +3 on hit)
- uf4 (safe mid huge range, good tracking on long distances, poor tracking up close)
- df2 (it's always a good time for df2, though it's very negative on block)
- ss4 (good range, hard to be whiff punished)
- ss3+4 (mid launcher, unlikely to be punished, awful range tho)
- jabs (approach and apply pressure)
- FCdf4 (approach, duck, and fish for a CH)
Situational options:
- running 3 (launches on CH, but seeable and very much punishable)
- raw rlx (high risk, high reward cause sometimes you need a lot of dmg! Some opponents have a hard time dealing with it, maybe because they are scared, maybe because their characters lack a good answer to it)
- 3 (homing move, launches on CH, but it's high and very slow)

Okis on the open:
- qcf3 to get some dmg and fish a reset from get up kicks, standing up and backroll)
- uf4 (for low crush)
- d4 or d3~4 (to get some dmg)
- b3+4 (for big dmg)
- b3,3 (bait a get up kick)
- ss3d (for far away okis, you may use this to get into rlx exactly while they are getting up and try a reset)
- f3+4 (needs some testing)
- u3 (huge dmg, good option for df2, it beats everything but backroll and standing up)

Oki at the wall:
- raw rlx (they have to deal with rlx 3 , rlx 4~3, rlx 1,3, rlx 4 (CH w!), rlx 3~4 (mid launcher that hits grounded), rlx 1+2,1+2 (w! mid)
- d2,3 (mid mid, NCC, safe on block, +14 on hit, amazing oki at the wall)
- u4,3 or 1,2,4,3 (low crush, huge dmg, positive on block, leaves you in rlx, but loses to side roll and tech roll)
- uf4 (safe mid w! with low crush and good range)
- ss2,4 (delayable string, mid high NC, w!, leaves you in HSP at -8 on block, so you may try HSP 4, HSP d3+4 to evade highs and mids and w!, or HSP 3+4 to not get floated and try a grab at the same time)
- ss1+4 (unsable low, big dmg, mix up with ss2,4
- 3~4, 3+4 (launches if they get up too soon, may float and get a bound if they get up late, hits them if they donít move for petty dmg, may launch if they raw tag
- b3,3 (good dmg on ground, very very fast mid, may launch them and even allows you to tag out)
- b3+4 (if they don't move)

Turtling:
- uf4 (excellent for spacing out, watch out for characters and opponent with good whiff punishment tho)
- raw rlx (bait them with highs and mids that miss rlx)
- df2 (you may get a launcher)
- 4 (good range, very fast (i12))
- ss4 (very good range and it's somewhat evasive, hard to whiff punish)
- ss3+4 (very evading, so it's hard to whiff punish it, good mix up with ss4)

Specific moves flowchart:

Ss4 to:
- grabs (they will probably block, chances of being hopkicked are high)
- df2 (bait an interruption - the down side is losing momentum)
- ss4 / ss3+4 (if they try to read you)
- df1 / standing 4 (keep pressure going with a safe fast mid)
- ss4~b(HSP) (HSP mix ups)
- back dash (bait an unsafe interruption)

HSP2 to:
- back dash (too close to create a whiff, but may give you good info on how they react)
- Hsp2,4 (finish the string, chance of being low parried, but safe on block)
- ws4 (safe mid close to uninterruptable, but high risk of being ss'ed)
- ss3+4 (cc to ss3+4 will track, wont whiff, will get crounchers but may be interrupted)
- FCdf4 (high risk, but launches on CH so...)

Uf3 to:
- uf3, 3+4 (with RLX 3~4 on the floor you get 40 dmg. A low parry or floating combo will roughly get more than that)
- uf3, 3 (full launch on hit, but full punish on block)
- uf3~d (RLX) (that's -12 on hit and -14 on block, avoid using it)
- b2 (people may try to do a ws4 or jabs when they see you didnít do the extensions)
- lows in general (though you are at -11, they may don't do anything cause they are too scared of the extensions)
- df2 (always a good time for it)

Uf4 to (NEEDS PRACTICE THIS):
- 80% back dash (good pushback doesnít allow your opponent to take advantage of the 6 frames)
- 5% b1,4 (beats slow moves and jabs due to distance. The pushback and frame disadvantage create a great bait to use b1,4)
- 5% db1+2 (same as above, but more risky cause it may whiff on patience opponents)
- 5% d3~4 or d4 (high crushes)
- 5% raw rlx (needs tests, but sounds good)

d4 to:
- backdash (cause it's -5 on hit)
- FC4 (high crush, good range, good tracking, barely unsafe, good for the end of the round)
- FCdf4 (very risky to get a CH, since most people attack on +5 and most noobs hopkick after a low, but you may get a CH on someone using highs and you will hit someone who doesnít attack)
- ws4 (safe mid, fast, nice way to check your opponent for a slow reaction)

HSP 4 to:
- hsp 4 again (LOL)
- go back (probably gonna be punished)
- hsp d3+4 (evades and launches some mids and all highs)
- hsp 3+4 (won't be floated if interrupted after the hsp 4)

B1,4 to:
- simply go back (-18, but good pushback, and hard to read, people with fast pokes to interrupt the HSP will whiff)
- HSP 2 mix ups (may be ss, but it's a -1 mid with a safe low extension)
- HSP 4 mix ups (fast, good tracking)
- HSP b3 (hits a ssr, and grants +7 and rlx on hit, but has low range, barely seeable and very much punishable)
- HSP f1 (tracks pretty well, even on block, excellent range, too hard to be punished if they duck it)
- HSP d3 (good range, mid, +10 and rlx on hit, hard to be fully punished, but unlikely to hit CHECK TRACKING)
- HSP 3+4 (grab that can only be evaded by ducking, stops you from being floated if they interrupt you early)
- b1,4,3,3+4 (mid mid NCC for good dmg, but very unsafe. Recommended when opponent tries to interrupt you. First hit is -12 and you may be floated with jabs if you continue the string. Second hit is -14. It is also very easy to side step it)
- b1,4,3+4 (high risk, high reward, recommended when opponent tries to interrupt you)

Positioning tricks:
- ss4 will take you to the left. Use the strings to get even further to the left, like b1,4b, HSP2,4~b, HSP2,4, and so on.
- ssr3+4 will take you to the left, ssl3+4 will take you to the right. Mix it up with ss4 and adjust yourself to the wall a little better.
- db3,4 will take you to the right.
- b4 will take you to the right.
- df1+2~5 grab will exchange positions at the wall and grants a nice oki

Wall pressure tricks:
- every rlx mix up
- f2,1,4
- duck jab to FC1+2,1+2
- db3,4 may get you a w!, or at least gives you +8 on hit
- 1,2,4,3 is a +4 low on block, so you can do rlx 4 and beat everything
- both eddy's grabs will still maintain your opponent cornered, though they will have plenty of time to breath
- 3,4 will wall splat you opponent to your left, but it will push them away from the wall in case the wall is to your right.


Stance tricks:
- rlx u_d will get you to standing up while you are rolling, so you may block an unsafe NCC such as capos b3,3, or duck a low high such as Nina's d4,1 and punish them. However, 1-hit-launchers will fully launch you.
- rlx 4~3, 3~4 and f3+4 will get you to an air state, so if the opponent hits you, you will get floated. All other moves get you to standing state, if the opponent hits you will get hit while standing and as a CH (e.g. a hopkick will launch you, and so will NCC launchers such as Eddy b3,3)
- HSP 3+4 will get you to a standing state, but not with a CH. So you may block NCC launchers and duck low highs. However, 1-hit-launchers will fully launch you.

Situations mix ups / best use of certain moves:
- uf3 mix ups: use when round is close to time up. It's very risky, but when you need dmg, you gotta take them.
- uf3 mix ups: when opponent has 40% or less health: When a uf3,3 can kill your opponent, he's likely not ducking. Uf3, 3+4 gives a good oki, back roll can dodge and punish tag crash, doing nothing may punish them coming in, and of course, rlx 3 and 3~4 may end the round.
- b1,4: when opponent is doing strings. When opponent insists on strings, most characters way to deal with it is to side walk and punish it from behind. Capos can't side walk, so the best way to deal with it is force a whiff on the first move of a string and interrupt with b1,4.
- b1,4: from -3 to +3 on frame advantage. Within this frame range, the risk reward of doing a b1,4 is totally on your side, as long as they aren't using Kuma. If they show signs of sidewalking you, be more patient and replace b1,4 for df2.

There's also a lot of study I made on RLX situations. But it's very hard to explain.

It means, for example, that if your opponent likes to jump over you, you may counter this by standing up and punishing him.

Note: It takes roughly 16~17 frames to stand up and be able to move (or block).
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Nice post. I'll look through it more carefully when I get back and offer my comments (off the top of my head, ws+4 is pretty good on block since its a perfect setup to throw them with Rodeo as they come in, ws+4 on hit can be followed by ss+3 for good pressure)

I've actually written a lot of flowchart notes as well (for every move) and I'll post them up as well.

Can you post your RLX stuff? I know its hard to explain but we're all Capo players, we'll understand I know the stance stuff gets super indepth.
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LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
The RLX stuff is related to what options you have from 3 scenarios: +3 (FCdf4), +7 (HSP b3) and -5 (HSP D3).

When you are on those situations, your opponent may do lots of things, like jump forward, jump back, try to duck, side step either side or interrupt with moves such as Nina d4,1; Eddy b3,3 and mainly hopkicks. So I tested the most famous options to see what happens and:

a) filter the best options (that works with most of the strategies they pull)
b) find a specific strategy if they insist on a particular strategy

I'll try to post something later, but it's kinda messy and it's a lot of work and it's half finished.

Edit: here it is: http://imgur.com/NUQxxaV


Also
I tested UF4 mix ups and db1+2 works great. b1,4 also works perfecly because if they attack with 1,2 the first jab will whiff and your b1,4 will get them on CH from the second jab!

Last edited by LuizWsp on Aug 15th, 2014 at 04:00

CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
I actually have the same stuff tested as well. In addition I did some situations on block, getting for example ss+3 blocked at far range allows you to potential evade moves with RLX f+3+4 or RLX 4~3, for example. HSP d+3 on block also gives nice options.

db+1+2 works pretty much after every move I've noticed Also it seems db+1+2 and db+3+4 are pretty much identical in what and how they evade, so its good to mix up the two. Once again I'll look through your stuff more carefully and I'll post up what I have, I'm sure we can learn one or two things from each other
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Sure!!!

I was interested in some oki setups and resets. Usually the ones I do after staples combos are:
a) after bound and all, instead of ending with rlx 2,f3, I just stop at rlx2 and go for a qcf3 (beats everything but techroll
b) stop at rlx2, then I do ss3d and have a rlx mix up if they tech roll. It's not very fast, people can still sw it sometimes.
c) rlx2,4~b to HSP D4. This one is good at the wall cause you can keep pressure.

I know of the rlx2 delayed f3~d to use the same strategy, althout a little faster, but it's too hard to do.

I was also interested in okis from stuff like after b2, or HSP 3+4. If you have some it would be nice! Thanks.
ENHEAS
Virtuoso
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 221
From: Italy
PSN: ENHEAS_TK
XBL: no x box
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
I've been away for some time and I have to say this topic has become very interesting..

I've read it all quickly but no doubt I'll spend more time on it and give my opinion if it's the case.

As up for now.. I noticed a little mistake and an omission:

- b1,4,3,3+4 can be easily interrupted in between 3 and 3+4 by jab. Eddy will float so it's pretty risky.
- 3,4 at wall: same thing. In between 3 and 4 opponent can pass and float Eddy with a jab.

Pressure at wall: you can also use ss2,4 that is HC and gives W! so pretty good.

I've seen using and landing slippery kicks at wall in case opponent techrolls but I'm not sure if it's just a matter of opponent not blocking or it's a legit setup. Cannot try now in practice mode.

Getting out of wall: I often try 2+4 throw. It's better if they escape it as you'll end up out with swapped positions. If throw lands you'll get out of wall but not so well as positions won't swap, you'll just get a bit more space.

Relax Options: they depend on the opp's characters' step ability. As for df2, there are chars like Jc, Lili, Miguel that can ss different options.


Oki

rlx2, delayed f3 is easy you just need some practice.

Main problems with Eddy in ttt2 compared to t6 are:

1- even if you land the "trap" , SO MANY F:::ING TIMES rlx4-3 will whiff second hit so you'll end up being floated for having tricked your opp correctly & rlx 3-4 won't hit EVEN if they techroll and duck. In my game experience this happens regularly. Trap works almost always only if I try ws13, rlx2,3, rlx. But this is ridiculous now as any TA! combo will give you a hundred damage so it's pretty rare I use this setup.
2- in T6 this setup would cover back roll too with rlx f+3+4. Now it's not like this anymore as simple back roll will avoid it. To catch backrollers you've got to use the hsp dive but picking this option will neutralise the rlx ones. So it turns to be a guessing game rather than giving much pressure.

I usually catch backrollers (situational) after landing hsp4 with hsp f+3+4 or during solo juggle B! rlx2,4, Hsp f+3+4. Or hsp 2,4 hsp f+3+4 depending on the juggle of course

In my opinion, you have to fool your opp by making him think you've missed your juggle. This would give you more chances to get a techroll and a rlx trap. This is why based on my experience rlx2, delayed f3 is one of the best "tricks" to get a trap in ttt2.

B2: I usually dash forward and try qcf3 Depending on the char you dont even need to dash. U+3 if they stay on the ground. Sometimes FC3+4 or ss4,3+4.
At wall: b2, b3+4 (they usually get up now) d2,3 (this will catch opp standing but BT), rlx 4,3 and there you do. To land d2,3 you have to be quick. But you can mix it up with ss1+4 if you see opp siderolling. d2,3 should be thrown out with attention as you have time to see if they could block d2. If so, go for mixups. I usually go for d2, rodeo, or f21 or 1,3 etc.
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Nice tips! Thanks.

3,4 you can get floated, but the first hit is safe, so you can do just 3, duck and punish if you think they are going to to try to interrupt you.

b1,4,3,3+4, they are always gonna jab you if they block the first 3 (at least they should), so it's dangerous.
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
OK, I can't wait to join in this discussion. I have tomorrow afternoon off so I can go through a lot of flow chart stuff in practice mode (I haven't turned the PS3 on in forever!!) so I'm pretty excited. But for now, I'll comment on everything I can about the last two posts.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Sure!!!

I was interested in some oki setups and resets. Usually the ones I do after staples combos are:
a) after bound and all, instead of ending with rlx 2,f3, I just stop at rlx2 and go for a qcf3 (beats everything but techroll

I know of the rlx2 delayed f3~d to use the same strategy, althout a little faster, but it's too hard to do.


So about RLX2, delayed f+3 to catch tech roll.

I won't say its TOO easy, but at the same time its not that hard once you get the timing down. Here's how I learned how to do it and after I started using these tips, I found my success rate went very high up with. As you probably know, after RLX 2,4~b! ~f RLX... if you delay RLX 2 long enough, you will drop your juggle and get a reset if the opponent doesn't tech roll. So what you want to do, is you want to delay RLX 2 the maximum amount BEFORE you drop the juggle and reset (there is actually a long window where you can delay RLX 2 and still have it combo) Delay RLX 2 as much as you can (its not hard when you get it down) and you'll find it much easier to 'miss' the delayed f+3 extension.

Also the longer your juggle is the easier it will be able to get the f+3 extension to hit. Since you're generally doing the trap in solo juggles its best to do a hit before b+3,3 in your combo.

RLX2, delayed f+3 is much more preferable to RLX 2 ss+3~d or RLX 2 f+1+2~f RLX since you can get the opponent before they get to do anything out of thier tech roll. Now on to the caveats as ENHEAS mentioned.


Originally posted by ENHEAS
Main problems with Eddy in ttt2 compared to t6 are:

1- even if you land the "trap" , SO MANY F:::ING TIMES rlx4-3 will whiff second hit so you'll end up being floated for having tricked your opp correctly & rlx 3-4 won't hit EVEN if they techroll and duck. In my game experience this happens regularly. Trap works almost always only if I try ws13, rlx2,3, rlx. But this is ridiculous now as any TA! combo will give you a hundred damage so it's pretty rare I use this setup.


Well, I'm sure you know this, but RLX 4~3 ONLY trips if the opponent tech rolls right (punches on 1p side, kicks on 2p side), otherwise only the first hit will hit. That's why the trap is a lot more effective when you're playing on 2p side (opponent on 1p), as most people tend to tech with punches by default.

If you feel the opponent is going to tech in the correct direction (to avoid the low) and you still want to go low, I'd either go for RLX 1,3, or just go for the first hit of RLX 4~3 into HSP mixups (the first hit gives you enough frame advantage to do uninterrupted HSP2_HSPd+3, if I recall correctly)

As for the mid missing on a ducking opponent.... I've never had that happen. I use Christie if it means anything but I feel that's very weird. I just tested this out in practice mode with record function and I couldn't get a scenario where I could duck the mid on tech roll (either side). Maybe you're doing it slowly ? (I'm sure that's not the case... but I have no other explanation).

I will agree that there's no reason to go for this trap off ws+1,3 juggles... I've never even considered doing that to be honest. Mainly because the mixup for the trap, the RLX2 qcf+3 reset doesn't really work if the opponent is head towards.



Originally posted by ENHEAS
2- in T6 this setup would cover back roll too with rlx f+3+4. Now it's not like this anymore as simple back roll will avoid it. To catch backrollers you've got to use the hsp dive but picking this option will neutralise the rlx ones. So it turns to be a guessing game rather than giving much pressure.


Huh, I didn't know that you could hit quick back rollers with RLX f+3+4 in T6... I thought you could only hit slow back rolls (for the record, you can't hit either in this game). But thats what the RLX2 drop combo qcf+3 reset is for, since that beats all options but tech roll and tag crash. Still its a shame to not have options... so that sucks. Here's what I found on both quick back roll and slow back rol (just a few optionsl...):

quick back roll: RLX 2 uninterrupable; RLX f+1+2 HSP4 interuptable by ws+4
slow back roll: RLX f+1+2 HSP2_HSP d+3 uninterrupable but can be sidestepped.

While it is good to know all of those options, I feel it may best to keep things simple to avoid information overload. If the opponent isn't going to tech: RLX2 drop juggle qcf+3 reset. If they are going to tech, RLX2 delayed f+3. Nice and easy

Originally posted by LuizWsp ) stop at rlx2, then I do ss3d and have a rlx mix up if they tech roll. It's not very fast, people can still sw it sometimes.


Now on to RLX 2 ss+3~d, as you mentioned, the big problem with this is that its easily steppable. But it does have some advantages.

1. If the opponent doesn't know capos and is scared, they will freeze and hold back, so you can catch them with a pure RLX 50/50. Unlike the RLX 2,(delayed 3), since the ss+3~d is slower, you will actually reorient with your opponent completely (so the RLX 4~3 will trip... unless of course, they sidestep or do something).
2. Against characters with bad sidesteps, like Jack, you can consider using ss+3~d, since it may be hard for them to begin a sidestep.

Yeah... that's about it. I'd recommend learning RLX 2,f+3 and trying to get that down.

On a semi related note, there is a silly reset with B! (opponent doesn't tech roll) ss+3 RLX3 So if you really want to style



c) rlx2,4~b to HSP D4. This one is good at the wall cause you can keep pressure.


I agree. I'm surprised going through my notes and not finding any details written on this since I use it all the time. In particular, I want to see if there is anything that can be done if the opponent doesn't move (HSP d+4 hits as a grounded hit), since a lot of distance gets put between you and the opponent.

Of course, if the opponent tries to move and HSP d+4 spikes, or if they're close to the wall, you can have a field day.


b1,4,3,3+4, they are always gonna jab you if they block the first 3 (at least they should), so it's dangerous.


The more you use HSP, the more people will want to jab you out... and that NCC juggle is so great when it lands (guaranteed low after it hits too)

Originally posted by ENHEAS
I've seen using and landing slippery kicks at wall in case opponent techrolls but I'm not sure if it's just a matter of opponent not blocking or it's a legit setup. Cannot try now in practice mode.


Can you describe the setup a little? My guess its its not guaranteed but its easy for opponents to not pay attention and get hits by slow lows on tech roll, esp. in pressure situations at the wall.



I was also interested in okis from stuff like after b2, or HSP 3+4. If you have some it would be nice! Thanks.


B2: I usually dash forward and try qcf3 Depending on the char you dont even need to dash. U+3 if they stay on the ground. Sometimes FC3+4 or ss4,3+4.
At wall: b2, b3+4 (they usually get up now) d2,3 (this will catch opp standing but BT), rlx 4,3 and there you do. To land d2,3 you have to be quick. But you can mix it up with ss1+4 if you see opp siderolling. d2,3 should be thrown out with attention as you have time to see if they could block d2. If so, go for mixups. I usually go for d2, rodeo, or f21 or 1,3 etc.


AFAIK, dash qcf+3, if you do it fast enough, is 100% guaranteed in the open. That said, I find it very tough (I use Christie). Here's a Korean player who can do it very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA1dN9YsfsU He gets it every time (he's also got a very fun Capo to watch, too!)

For the record, I can't so I also mixup with dash FC 3+4 (which I *think* is also guaranteed). ss+4, 3+4 is one I never thought of though, will try it!! For the record, b+2 puts the opponent in FUFA, and they can't tech roll or quick back roll.

Its really not easy, but if they back roll (which a lot of people will do honestly), you can delay (for the slightest bit) run in and get a back throw on the opponent! I think the key is to delay your dash a slight bit to make it work...

As for the wall options, as Enheas mentioned, there are several. The following are combos (can't be tag crashed):

d+4,3
d+3
db+2,3 (great for tagging out)
qcf+3

These are important to know since anything else can be tag crashed. Of course, if your opponent can't tag crash, b+3+4 is really, really good. Other guaranteed (non combo) options I can think of off the top of my head:

f+3+4 (I like this one a lot since you can mixup right after)
d+3~3

And of course, the opponent can't tech roll and getup facing BT so there's a lot of stuff you can do.

As for HSP throw, its on my list of things to look into but I haven't yet

Alright, thats it for now. Please correct me if you see any mistakes, I'm kind of tired right now so I'm afraid I may have miswrote something. Will post more in reply to your earlier posts tmw !!
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
lizanias
Spread Tekken <3
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1694
From: Indonesia
PSN: xtc_LZN
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Hello guys. Sorry for abandoning this thread in the last few months. I haven't caught up with the latest posts. But thanks for the replies, they look good.

Anyways I've been quite busy & found it hard to divide my time to make more flowcharts. But since I've been dabbling recently with different characters, and exploring the game, I started to become more motivated in improving my Chreddy too. So here's my updated version b+1 flowchart.

link: http://imgur.com/iIsnwfB


- What is this? it's basically a diagram that is aimed to guide people in executing b+1 and its mixups.
I should probably explain the flow of actions, thoughts or whatever in this flowchart. But it's 1 AM, and I'm starting to fall asleep.

- Why I made this? People are starting to be more aware of the weaknesses of the b+1 string. So, my goal is to let the Chreddy players know the deeper meta game in the b+1 string.


- can this flowchart be simpler? actually yes. There are 3 main ways to stop the b+1 mix-ups. The first one is to simply block and sometimes the b+1 string will whiff(there's a reason). Another option would be to sidestep the kick from b+1,4 then avoid the remainder part of the strings. The last one is to backdash. So I could've made like 3 branches of possible actions taken by the opponent, and started the flowchart from there. But I already finish this update when I realized I could've made the flowchart simpler & easier to understand. Maybe next time.




Update:
here are various flowcharts I've gathered from this thread..

- Capo b+1 Flowchart ver 1.0, by Lizanias
http://imgur.com/NUQxxaV

- Capo b+1 Flowchart ver 1.1 by Lizanias
http://imgur.com/iIsnwfB

- not a flowchart but more like a Spreadsheet of mixups, by LuizWsp
http://imgur.com/NUQxxaV

Last edited by lizanias on Aug 27th, 2014 at 04:53

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