Specific problems when playing capos

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LuizWsp
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
So, capos are very unusual characters, we all know that. So the type of problems we have is different from the rest of the roster, and so is the solution.

I would post this on the Q&A thread, but it's very specific and may be a long thread (if it works at all).

I'd like to discuss strategies that are specific to capos here.

For example, right now I'm facing many dfficulties playing against the so called "linear characters". Whenever I ask someone how to deal with Lili safe launcher that hits RLX (df3+4), Paul's safe launcher that hits rlx (ff4) or anyother safe launcher that covers great range (like Nina's uf1, or Lars uf4), all I get is the same answer: just SS or SW it.

Well, works fine when I'm playing another char, but it' doesnt work when I'm playing capos, but I can't back dash from it either, specially Paul's and Lili's. So what do you guys do at these moments?
LuizWsp
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Another problem I have is when I fight Bears and Ogre.

Ogre has that fly in the middle of the combos that work 100% of the time against capos bnb combos. On normal launchers you could just use the df1,1 - uf1,2 B! option instead of the regular b3,3 combo, but on combos like after a wake up 3, as soon as a capo tries the b3,3, Ogre flies away, and there is no other pick up. Does anybody have any anti-fly tactics?

On Bears, similar problem. Combos from ws1,3, ws2 (normal hit), wake up3 and floatings are always dropped. Sometimes, even the normal combos are dropped. Mayber there is something that can be done, but I dont know.

RLX 4~3 is also a big problem... HSP 1 doesnt hit. HSP f1 doesnt hit. I try a delayed HSP f+3+4 to b3,3 and it picks them up, but then I alwys drop the rest of the combo (and ogre flies away).

The b1,4,3+4 don't work on bears either. The 3+4 whiffs even if b1 is on CH (not always tho).

As if it wasnt enough, the low pokes are also hard to land, since their arms can reach you long before your lows can reach them.

How am I supposed to fight without combos, rlx mix ups, b1,4 and low pokes?

Am I missing something very obvious here?
Ayos Mishima
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Yes you are missing something simple, and it's the sad truth that capos aren't good against bears. Bears are anti-capo, simple as that!

I would just use uf4, 4, df1, gotta be patient. Use your awesome backdash to your advantage because bear range sucks.

As far as moves that can't be SS or SW... we just have to either use our awesome backdash (best in game) or we have to BLOCK LIKE A MAN. Let me tell you, nothing is scarier than a capo who CAN ACTUALLY BLOCK. Most capos don't like to block and play "animal style" defense meaning that instead of blocking, they choose to do an evasive or crushing move (b2). But block that shit. They will be in negative frames and you can rodeo, dash forward in their face, relax mixup or whatever you want.

Our weaknesses are combo damage, punishers and SS but we try to make up for it in pokes, mind games, and best backdash.
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CaCarmen
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
I mean when you can't step or otherwise evade moves you have to just block them Paul's ff+4 on block leaves Paul in recovered crouch with minor frame disadvantage, whereas Lili's df+3+4 has been nerfed from BR, on block she doesn't have a strong BT mixup like she used to. So after blocking it be aggressive while being mindful of her options (jab, turn around, finish the string.) I think the best thing to do usually is just do the first hit of b+3 and confirm with the followup depending on whether or not you hit or backturned or not. If the first hit somehow whiffs because she turns I don't think you should be too punishable? And if she finishes the string, well, that's a BIG risk on her part.

Lili is good against Capos and Paul is good against me as a player. So I wish I had more advice to give.

I don't know much about Bears or Ogre since I don't have that much experience. However to make up for the difficult RLX 4~3 juggle, there is potential for awesome wall damage. The solo wall combo on Kuma is B! df+1,1 f+2,1,4, with the last hit doing 60% damage. With Hwoarang I can do B! (Hwo TA: u+3 3,4 RFS2,4,4) f+2,1,4. Its crazy damage.
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
yup. just block and be patient
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ENHEAS
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Just also consider that for each player who REALLY knows what to do vs Capos , there are at least 6\7 (even at high or very high level) that know something but not precisely, and 15\20 who don't know almost anything but pretend to know. Plus Eddy can be very personal, so my style can be very different from yours for example. This doesn't happen to many chars. Plus the average Eddy player relies on stances too much. So standing there and blocking and being patient and not going in rlx everytime can drive many people mad, or at least make them feel uncomfortable.

in my opinion:

- Bears' range if far from being bad. Bears' range is awesome. This is also due to the particular hitbox (or hurt box) Kuma and Panda have, that links to what was written before about some lows apparently whiffing.

I don't know the commands honestly, but there are so many very good moves in terms of range..

- Eddy's BD is not the best, I find Tiger's better, and Zafina's even better, i'm pretty sure there are other chars with very good BD but I can't recall them now..

- I find very hard to play VS Kuma and Panda. My Team is Eddy Bruce and up until now I haven't found any effective juggle at wall to compensate the loss of the usual "devastation" this team has. Also because Bruce's db214 doesnt work!! Kuma get teleported behind Bruce while the 1 and so you end up getting hit by Kuma's ground moves, plus you suffer following oki and you're at wall now.

Plus: if you whiff punish with d\f+3+4 be aware that if you go for a simple b33 afterwards, it may whiff.
_CH b3,3 you MUST tag out after, so CH b3,3 is always a CHb3,3-5
_ws1,3 same thing.
_ if you wnat to go for a solo juggle, I suggest CHb33\ws1,3, rlx2, d2,3
_rlx4-3 is quite reliable after you practice a bit. It may take some time and doesn't allow you to perform a full juggle 100% because with the tension of the match you might be to rushy so you'll whiff the connection.
Be sure to always confirm the second 3 of b33. The rlx4-3 juggles with bears is divided in 2: rlx4-3, hsp f+3+4, b3 and all the rest. If you go for a blind b33 and you don't connect, Kuma can sideroll and hit you bad, plus oki afterwards.

- ch b14,3+4 not only it doesn't work, but even on ch, Kuma can TP the hell out of you in between, so never go for it. That's it.

- don't know why, really, but even b14 hsp 4 doesn't work. Kuma can pass in between. tested so many times but it still hurts. If opponent Know this, you can choose to go for a straight b14, hsp b3. It will always hit since Kuma steps forward because does a punch to interrupt the helicopter, but it's still a risky thing.

- The match up is very bad. It's all in Bears' favor. Eddy has some tools but it's still pretty hard.
Tools are : uf4, chb3 to be confirmed, df2. Kuma's u2 maybe (the move Kuma jumps up to land with a low) is -13 and ws13able, Kumas ws22 you can pass in between with b2, Kumas ff2 is qcf3able. There are other things I found and maybe I'll post them later.


- with Ogre the thing is either going for df11, b14 B! or waiting for the second 3 of b33. If you go for df11 and Ogre breaks the juggle, you can go for b33 afterwards.

- One thing I find quite useful Vs Ogre is u+3.. Ogre needs mid\long range combat, so sometimes it's good to go for a u+3. Does a ton of damage and usually they don't expect it coming. Just be sure of the range.

- Last thing about the step: it's true that Eddy is the baddest char about it, but it's also true that he's still able to step a bit and in my opinion we gotta use even that small thing in our advantage.
Eddy can actually step some strings effectively (ex DJ's bf212, you can step the 3rd hit, or Xiao step4 on hit, ws4, you can step right the ws4) so he's able to step direct things like Pauls ff4 or Lili's dive or Lars's uf4. OF COURSE you're not able to step it in close combat or at - frames, but since these are approaching moves, you can try to attempt a step sometime and it will work eventually.

- I don't have much experience against Lili, but Vs Paul the matchup is fair i think. During T6 it was in Eddy's favor since b2 could eat almost everything..

- quite nothing to do vs close Lars' uf4. if you do f+throw, uf4 will eat the throw..


the matchup I should be very prepared on, but still drives me crazy is vs Hwoarang.. nothing to do about it, too much unbalanced.. too many pads thrown at the window, and nothing solid you can really rely on to counter his pressing, everything is just either risky or so bad in terms of damage. Bloody Hell.

Last edited by ENHEAS on Nov 1st, 2013 at 00:52

LuizWsp
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
About the ss. I found something really weird the other day: that Bob string d/b+4, 4, 3, 3 can be sidestepped right very easily by Eddy, but I had a hard time with all others I tested (Bob, Jin, DVJ). Dont kNow why...

Against ogre Ill just keep in mind to use df1,1 then. I tested and it works all the time.

Yesterday I play double beras again, I just used another team =( Their range (and Ogre's) is pretty sick, so I picked Jinpachi to even things out and I won.

Good thing againt Paul is RLX will evade many of his punches, d2,1 or qcf2 for fre launch under him.

Lili''s still a mistery to me, that df3+4 is safe, hard to evade and punish and still connects full combo or floating hits.

Against hwoarang I mix up these 3 things when he goes nuts on the stances:

a) I back dash and df2_b14 (safe and huge damage if you succed, but kinda hard)
b) I go for those croushjabs to any other mix up (FC f4, grabs, ws4) (happens very often, but no real benefit)
c) b2 (fails many times, although it works well on Baek)
d) read either the low launcher or the d4,3 and launch him (thats hard to do but also good dmg if you do)

I do the same with steves
LuizWsp
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Btw, thanks for the support
CaCarmen
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by ENHEAS
the matchup I should be very prepared on, but still drives me crazy is vs Hwoarang.. nothing to do about it, too much unbalanced.. too many pads thrown at the window, and nothing solid you can really rely on to counter his pressing, everything is just either risky or so bad in terms of damage. Bloody Hell.


I genuinely feel Hwo and Baek are two of the easiest matches for Capos. Basically those characters have a super hard time hitting RLX and HSP, as well as dealing with all of Capos defensive options, which greatly skews the risk/reward ratio for Capos. Hwo's quickest options to hit RLX are db+4 and b+3... however these two which whiff at certain ranges, making them really inconsistant. db+3 is his best all around move to hit RLX, but it does only 12 damage (8 if you do a 4~3 or something and get floated). Like it would take 20 db+3's hitting RLX to kill one character, while getting a RLX launcher on him takes half his life HSP duck is also incredibly effective against him.

As for evasion, when Hwo is pressuring, skillful and unpredictable use of the following options: b+2, db+1+2, 1+2,3_b+3,3_b+1,4 CH searching, standard RLX lie down , ducking and looking for an opportunity to ws+1,3 launch a high, d+4,3 high crush NCC, along with just being patient and blocking, can make it hard for TKDs to hit you. Capos standing punishment is not good but what moves do good Hwo players that are punishable anyway? I've seen far too many matches of super good Hwo's like MDJ and DPR being blown up by only 'decent' level Capos.

I guess another obvious point I missed is that Hwo's best range is super close, so good spacing can really hurt him as well.

I also main Hwo (who I picked up long after Eddy), so if you can show me some vids of you playing or describe the problems you're facing, I could do my best to help.
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
So against a bear, Marduk, or Jacks, HSP 1 doesn't seem efficient after RLX 4~3. Is this due to their awkward body frame? I noticed doing HSP 2 into WS 1, 3 connects more often than HSP 1. Or is it just me?
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CaCarmen
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
HSP2 works great on Marduk-Jinpachi. Works somtimes on Jack. Doesn't connect on Kuma. The only thing to do on Kuma or Ogre is a delayed HSP spring kick into b+3,3...
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EASTERNBORDER
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
I've been observing players using the capos whether regular ones or now and I like to discuss the general problem I see from them.

First off is wall pressure. capos main weaknesses are characters with strong offenses that are nailing them against the wall and even CH moves give very little effort to retaliate. Even with capo players with strong blocking skills like jundding will eventually give in from the wall pressure. What I see from most players when dealing with this is that they have no quick moves to fight back and has to rely on short punishments like d/f+2 after they stop attacking. This is bad because after they block your single hit move it usually resets to capos sticking on defense again. Other people think they can get away with the offense using iRLX and b+2 but that doesn't always work when most characters have efficient strings that tracks and hits low.

Your best option against wall pressure is still punishment but instead of single hit moves, use strings that provide positive frames to follow up another move. The Idea is to push the enemy back, giving you room for spacing. d/f+2 (14f) isn't the best move to do so. try d/f+1,1 (13f, -2blk, +6hit) for a change. the b+1,4 series is good too, but you have to risk reward yourself following a suitable move after that. Standing 1,2 is the general punishment but it hits high so ducking players will get you in trouble. d+4,3 and b+3,f seems to be good candidates on hit,as good punishment moves that gives you enough frames to go back on defense.

I'd like to add some more, but I wanna see people's take on this first before I could go on.

Last edited by EASTERNBORDER on Mar 14th, 2014 at 02:25

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CaCarmen
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
I think I understand what you're saying. Throwing out a df+2 and getting blocked pretty much kills all momentum. Stuff like a jab punish into df+1~f HSP and then HSP tilt to help get out of the wall situation is good, or just df+1 (blocked) and then mess around with the -2 it leaves you at. I think df+1,1 is -4?

Maybe even getting a hit and then going for a b,b,ub wall jump is a good option. But in general, yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
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ENHEAS
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Guys, I've been finding some issues.

b1,4 hsp is +1 right?
hsp 4 is 10 right?

so why the hell many characters can pass in between with a jab and float?

I tested and tested and tested and tested and tested in practice mode last night with two friends of mine.. both with me playing capos and friends the dummys and viceversa.

we played on a 0 lag monitor, that is widely used for tournaments all around europe, especially Italy, France and Germany (iiyama prolite)

the only thing I can think about (since we tested so many times and we thought it's not a matter of delayed input by the player) some sort of active frame-related matter, as I 10000000000000000% believe Noodalls frame list is correct.
So either, despite the many tests, it's something related to the player or why the hell does it happen?
we tested with bryan, hwoarang, kuma, law.
blaugrana200
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
No b+1,4 on block is -17~-18 ,but f+4 on block is 0~+1 there is a difference i use this FD http://rbnorway.org/eddy-ttt2u-frames/

But on AvdP b+1,4 on block is +2 , too much is different on FD

Test on block f+4~b hsp 4

On Kuma/Panda work wall W! u/f+1+2~tag B! 3,4,3,4
ENHEAS
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
As I wrote, I meant b1,4 hsp. So transition in hsp from the b1,4 move…

I didnt understand the Kuma\Panda thing you wrote to be honest
noodalls
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#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by ENHEAS
Guys, I've been finding some issues.

b1,4 hsp is +1 right?
hsp 4 is 10 right?

so why the hell many characters can pass in between with a jab and float?

I tested and tested and tested and tested and tested in practice mode last night with two friends of mine.. both with me playing capos and friends the dummys and viceversa.

we played on a 0 lag monitor, that is widely used for tournaments all around europe, especially Italy, France and Germany (iiyama prolite)

the only thing I can think about (since we tested so many times and we thought it's not a matter of delayed input by the player) some sort of active frame-related matter, as I 10000000000000000% believe Noodalls frame list is correct.
So either, despite the many tests, it's something related to the player or why the hell does it happen?
we tested with bryan, hwoarang, kuma, law.


HSP 4 is very unreliable in terms of hitting on its first active frame. Lots of the time it will hit as i13 or so, especially if the opponent is far away. This is often the case when they've already been hit back by a previous move (e.g. f+4~b or b+1,4~b). This is why comboing f+4~b HSP 4 is inconsistent.
ENHEAS
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#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Thank you very much
CaCarmen
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#19 “Quote” Edit Post
I think that's why when f+4 hits the opponent crouching HSP4 will always connect... when the opponent gets hit by a mid in crouching (as opposed to standing) they don't get pushed back as far. Its very subtle stuff but its important to remember.
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ENHEAS
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#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Cacarmen thanks for your help some posts ago, I forgot to reply!

So guys, what's your strategy and combos vs Kuma?

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