Philosophy of Mishima

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lilleboff
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#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by GanymeDes
I believe he was referring to faster, "unreactable" mids. The problem of ff3 is that your opponent can basically stay crouched, and go to standing guard on reaction once they see an animation starting. This happens mostly with players who have experience against Kazuya. This the very reason why you must use cdc12. Also, I think it is completely pointless to use a move such as ws4 out of wavedash unless you are trying to finish them off. You have the scariest mix up in the game, so make some goddamn use of it! Otherwise you might be better off playing another character.

Applying 50/50 mixups for high damage is only one way to use his wavedash, and it kinda is the most simple way too. The point of wavedashing isn't to make people duck so you can hit them with a mid launcher, the main reason to wavedash is to put pressure on the opponent, bait out attacks and make him hesitate. Just wavedashing in to do a hellsweep_ws+1,2 mixup isn't gonna get you that far. If you don't know what I'm talking about, watch Knee play. He is using wavedash as a pressure and mindgame tool, mainly for setting up CH EWGFs and whiffs. Just search for "Knee Devil Jin Kazuya" on youtube and pay attention to how he pressures with wavedashing, with very few hellsweeps.

Also, dash EWGF from wavedash is probably his best option to deal with people sidewalking left. You don't need ws+1,2 for that.
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GanymeDes
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
I've watched Knee play, and I'm a big fan of his Kazuya. I have also noticed how sparingly he uses hellsweeps. However, I think it has to do with the tendencies of his opponent, rather than his own. Obviously there is no need for hs if you can nail them with ch electrics. The turtlier they play, the more you wanna use it.
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
I can't decide if I like Knee's Mishimas, lol. He's definitely solid, but he's almost too passive for my taste. I love his spacing game, and he's incredibly good at baiting counter-hits, but it's just frustrating to see all that wavedash canceling into block for me, haha. It must be my American FFFFUUUUU PRESS BUTTONS mentality, even though I consider myself a very patient player in comparison to many of my peers. Koreans are just ridiculous in that regard. O_o;

My play style is usually "Make a better decision than your opponent" - in regard to my act being the correct one at the correct time, which admittedly, is a more 'romantic' style based more on feeling and game-sense, but Knee's mentality seems to be "Make them act, then react." - a very simple, mechanized bait and punish style based not primarily on game sense, but raw data. You don't feel they are about to act - you witness them act because you are not committing to anything in particular, thus, reaction time is decreased - as are many other random factors.

It's difficult to break this down into psychological terms, but I feel it's necessary to understand exactly what enables Mishimas to be top tier. Is this playstyle (Knee's) the way Mishimas are "supposed" to be optimally played? Any thoughts guys?

Last edited by Kurai Ryu on Mar 19th, 2013 at 19:41

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Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
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GanymeDes
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#24 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
It's difficult to break this down into psychological terms, but I feel it's necessary to understand exactly what enables Mishimas to be top tier. Is this playstyle (Knee's) the way Mishimas are "supposed" to be optimally played? Any thoughts guys?

I have always thought that it's simply the best (most effective) way in general to play Tekken. By this I mean playing like super defensive with good spacing. I often say "defense is the best offense in Tekken". Things start to get problematic/interesting when both players enforce this style of play equally strongly.

It's like he said:
Originally posted by NYG5
what hurts kaz is when someone plays like another kaz, ie, good defense, isn't too risky. players who can outdo your patience

This is the point where I'm hoping to get my opponents. Or at least assume they will eventually be. This when you shake them down with the low/mid or throw/mid mix-ups. But if your opponent is not willing to go for solid defense -- then by all means -- ch electric them to their early grave.
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Truth be told, Knee sometimes annoys me with so much turtling
But yeah, that style is the most effective(I myself have got very good results with it, as I said before) and hard to master with mishimas. I think you should use it to an extent, just don't make it your 'way of life'.
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#26 “Quote” Edit Post
<3 CH electrics. It's like a soul drain that replenishes all of your ailments, and likewise, diminishes your opponent on an unconscious level.

I agree that defense is the best option in Tekken in general, but does that mean nullifying your neutral game altogether, or just simplifying it as much as possible? It seems at range 2+ Knee only goes for a couple of options:
Run_wd up, stop_back up_1_electric.
Sometimes run up, stop, iws launch

He doesn't do things that are punishable very often. Run up jab will either interrupt, leaving him at +frames, or pick up random hopkicks with the option to confirm a combo, and isn't slow enough on recovery for most sweep lows to be reacted to.

Electric will obviously launch anything slower than 14 frames, which eliminates more than half of any opponent's arsenal, and forces them to either commit to an unsafe move, mash jabs, or duck, lest they simply block and take the mix-up.

Other than block, these seem like the best options to get in on any opponent. Sorry if this stuff is obvious - just trying to put it down 'on paper' to organize my thoughts. I'm trying to sort of reboot my play style to something that covers more ground. Not being able to play as much means my focus is a variable whenever I play people that have been playing every day, so I plan to minimize mistakes by attempting to emulate this sort of philosophy.

I feel that, once you've established a healthy defense and solid offense that is as risk-free as possible, you can really play any way you want to from there. I am just trying to get to that point.
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Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
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Davos Seaworth
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by GanymeDes
b12 (practically impossible)
b24 (not impossible, but not very practical either due to the risk and difficulty)
df32 (certainly doable)
df44 (easy enough)
112 (anyone can do this one)


Really? You guys consider B-2,4 to be a difficult confirm? I can admit that on whiff you're likely screwed but I've only been playing Kazuya for 2 days and already I've found this move is remarkably easy to hit confirm, and at +8 (I believe) it yields so much. I'm relatively new to Tekken and especially new to Kazuya so unfortunately I can't contribute much to the conversation. A lot of you have said that Kazuya does best when you can have a good mix up of rushdown and patience so I feel that I'm on the right track playing as Kaz/Dragunov.

Drag, or at least my Drag, is extremely lame which has conditioned me to play Kazuya in semi-similar fashion. A lot of my game revolves around spacing and hit confirming b-2,4 then riding the + frames to victory. I understand some complaints about df-4 but I think you're selling it a bit short. -3 on block leaves plenty of room to maneuver and it's pretty + on hit so for me it's a key move. Plus it'll hit Capos out of plenty of their bs -.-
GanymeDes
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Davos Seaworth
Really? You guys consider B-2,4 to be a difficult confirm? I can admit that on whiff you're likely screwed but I've only been playing Kazuya for 2 days and already I've found this move is remarkably easy to hit confirm, and at +8 (I believe) it yields so much.

I don't know if you are aware, but the hit confirm window in this move is not equal to the possible maximum delay of it. Meaning they are able to block (or duck) the second hit even if the first one lands if you delay it too much. It is definitely his hardest usable hit confirm. Even though I manage to hit confirm it from time to time, I still consider it too hard and risky to be relied upon. To get a picture, try going to practice mode using random guard to standing guard and compare it to df44, for example.
Davos Seaworth
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#29 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by GanymeDes
I don't know if you are aware, but the hit confirm window in this move is not equal to the possible maximum delay of it. Meaning they are able to block (or duck) the second hit even if the first one lands if you delay it too much. It is definitely his hardest usable hit confirm. Even though I manage to hit confirm it from time to time, I still consider it too hard and risky to be relied upon. To get a picture, try going to practice mode using random guard to standing guard and compare it to df44, for example.


Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely go check this out.
vittujee
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#30 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Davos Seaworth I understand some complaints about df-4 but I think you're selling it a bit short. -3 on block leaves plenty of room to maneuver and it's pretty + on hit so for me it's a key move. Plus it'll hit Capos out of plenty of their bs -.-

df4 is -9 on block. leaves you with literally zero options and you are going to get into a mixup. for what? for potential df4<4 which is 34 or something on hit? -4 on hit too or was it -5. df4 alone is +2 i think.

edit well, i guess at df4 on block at -9 you still have the option to go for df44 and end up at -14~-15 to stop mixups. but you gain something like 15 damage and still -4 or -5. and if they didnt get hit by it, you get fucked.

as for b2<4, if someone can hitconfirm it, thats good. its a good addition to the limited safe mid arsenal. however in my opinion gaining +8 instead of +4 and added something of a 14 damage is never worth being launched for. meaning that if you cannot hitconfirm it 100% its not worth it. I could kind of understand 90% since thats about equal amount of potential damage traded in theory. But if its equal amount and not greater, whats the point?
sorry dont remember exact numbers and cant test now.

also interesting study regarding knee. if you are going to watch other kaz's can you do the same? qudans plays interesting kazuya.

edit
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
Electric will obviously launch anything slower than 14 frames, which eliminates more than half of any opponent's arsenal, and forces them to either commit to an unsafe move, mash jabs, or duck, lest they simply block and take the mix-up.

if you are talking about frames scenario, at -2 i think is where slower than 14 being 15 would indeed trade with perfect electric and be launched. assuming its not a high crush move. that would not only require pewgf but also ability to input pewgf right when its possible. Doable I suppose but kind of highly theoretical situation that you speak of.

if you talk about a situation where characters are not in frames, and if situation is such then speed of moves do not apply same way as in frames. unless its a "seeable" move, like unblockable or snake edge.
in a situation where im standing at range 2 from you and you dash at me and input an attack when you get into your effective range and i react to it and do electric there are a lot more things at play than just speed of the moves. i've played against people who can even counter hit my stuff and other peoples attacks aswell using i20 moves. I presume it has lot to do with understanding your and your opponents effective ranges and the speed of character travel contrast to the speed and range of move.

in a theoretical situation, if I we we're at range 3 or so and I know you cant punish f3 and I see you moving towards me and if I know the moment when I should input f3 that by the time it has active frames you should be too close to be able to backdash out and potentially at the range when you would start pushing buttons for attacking and I might score ch f3. even if its i19

Last edited by vittujee on Mar 20th, 2013 at 21:32

Davos Seaworth
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#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
df4 is -9 on block. leaves you with literally zero options and you are going to get into a mixup. for what? for potential df4<4 which is 34 or something on hit? -4 on hit too or was it -5. df4 alone is +2 i think.


You're right, got my frames mixed up. df-4 isn't what I thought of at all. df-4,4 is -3 on hit df-4 is +2~3.
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#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
also interesting study regarding knee. if you are going to watch other kaz's can you do the same? qudans plays interesting kazuya.

I can certainly attempt a breakdown for any player I see. I've watched countless other Kaz players... obviously - being one, but not since a few changes in my thought process allowed me to view things on a bit of a broader and more scientific/philosophical scale, so this should be fun. I'll get on it tomorrow if I have time.


if you are talking about frames scenario, at -2 i think is where slower than 14 being 15 would indeed trade with perfect electric and be launched. assuming its not a high crush move. that would not only require pewgf but also ability to input pewgf right when its possible. Doable I suppose but kind of highly theoretical situation that you speak of.

if you talk about a situation where characters are not in frames, and if situation is such then speed of moves do not apply same way as in frames. unless its a "seeable" move, like unblockable or snake edge.
in a situation where im standing at range 2 from you and you dash at me and input an attack when you get into your effective range and i react to it and do electric there are a lot more things at play than just speed of the moves. i've played against people who can even counter hit my stuff and other peoples attacks aswell using i20 moves. I presume it has lot to do with understanding your and your opponents effective ranges and the speed of character travel contrast to the speed and range of move.

in a theoretical situation, if I we we're at range 3 or so and I know you cant punish f3 and I see you moving towards me and if I know the moment when I should input f3 that by the time it has active frames you should be too close to be able to backdash out and potentially at the range when you would start pushing buttons for attacking and I might score ch f3. even if its i19
Sorry for the vagueness. I was referring to how Knee rarely ever initiates confrontation while he is spacing, and when he does, his options are limited. So yes, I was supposing a dash-in electric (or whatever) from a range 2 or 3 scenario, just outside most characters' comfort zones. Neutral frames, just raw spacing.

I was just trying to make the observation that his tactics don't seem to have a lot of holes, boring as they may be. Either that, or they counter a very specific set of circumstances, so one can look for, and react to given circumstances with relative ease. Perhaps I am oversimplifying, though...
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Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
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#33 “Quote” Edit Post
Okay, just from the first few clips (40-some-odd minutes each) I've watched, one can already deduce that Qudans and Knee do not share styles in the least. While Knee's is mechanical, uncaring, and difficult to provoke, Qudans seems to always be attempting to keep the pressure on. When he wave-dashes in, he usually makes use of its utility almost every time. Occasionally he will wd~block, but not half as often as when he commits to a poke of some sort, or a hard mix-up if oki is available. Lots of hellsweep, lots of wd~ws2 with DJ - this guy likes to commit. He is, as I described myself earlier, more of a romantist. He intends to put pressure on the opponent through aggression - though relatively safe. Still, this provides many more opportunities for the opponent to get in on him, and they do, it seems.

It is worth noting that Qudans' wavedash is nowhere near as powerful as it used to be. You can really see the lack of decisiveness in his movements at some points, as if he just learned how to wavedash last year (technically, he did. he learned a new method since his crippling wrist problem made his normal stick-handling method all but impossible.) I am not sure how this affects him as a player, but I just noticed his movement doesn't seem to have the fluidity it once had.

Anyway, since he focuses less on spacing out the opponent and more on catching them with pokess or stray electrics and hellsweeps, it's pretty safe to say Qudans is more my style of player. He makes the call, no matter the safety, and reacts more quickly to stimulus. For example, quite often I see many things go unpunished for Knee's vids. Things that aren't absolutely essential, but could easily score a half-life combo in this game if they were taken advantage of. Random character strings with highs in them, or steppable options will normally go off the radar for Knee - but Qudans intends to punish nearly all of it as harshly as possible, then uses the advantage to force an opening with the momentum. This is shown from his DR days as well as current recordings from what I've seen so far. Again, I will try and break this down some more tomorrow - these are just first impressions.

An interesting pattern is developing that I've been keeping track of for a while now. Players who focus on many things at once tend to be either hit or miss, but when they hit, are humongous crowd-pleasers. They take risks, try to cover as many bases as they can, and be good at many things at once: throw breaking, spacing, punishment, wall combo adaption, axis combo variation, just-frame timing etc.

Conversely, players who tend to simplify their play, focusing on 2 or 3 things in super-specialization instead of macro-management on a superficial scale tend to be much more boring to watch, but all the more effective in their endeavors. That's not to say that they win more often, but they do seem to get hit less...
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Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
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Kazzy_Jin
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#34 “Quote” Edit Post
Qudans and Leedy *sighs* ...now those are mishimas I really enjoyed during T5/T5DR days.

Nice gameplay breakdown, BTW.
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#35 “Quote” Edit Post
Thank you. Feel free to disagree or propose counter-arguments to my ramblings. My observations are just my point of view, but I know you guys may see things that I don't, or see them in a different light altogether - so by all means, chime in if you want.

I still remember watching this for the first time and Mishi-gasming, lol. Ahh... back in the day when I thought the fact that I could d/f2 electric like 30% of the time made me baller, lmao.
Knee vs Qudans
Notice that Knee's provocative style still applies, even with a different character back in '07. Dude is way too solid.

But yeah, anyway, to further support what I was saying earlier about macro-management vs. super specialization, here's an interesting article based on a recent international study. Remember guys, keep an open mind. Everything is relative.

edit: Shoutouts to 8-frame jabs!!1

Last edited by Kurai Ryu on Mar 21st, 2013 at 16:49

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Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
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#36 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey guys, I like this thread I'll give it a sticky in fact!

In any case, to answer the questions at the start...

- IMHO Kaz is a character that is all about raw power, whether it be in punishment, juggles, CH game, mindgames etc. I believe Kaz utilises all of those aspects to scare the opponent into playing safely so as to avoid making a mistake.
- I like to play Kaz with a lot of EWGF mindgames, admittedly I'm really rusty with him now but the old school mindgames brought about from the pushback of a blocked EWGF is what I'm usually about. Usually I like to control the match and space through that and when the opponent is starting to be wary of them then I will try to mix them up more.
- My panic buttons are definitely b+2>4, b+1, 1,1 and d/f+2. 1+2 varies depending on how attack happy my opponent is.
- My pokes include 1,2, 1,1, WS+4, CD,n+4, CDC,WS+1, d/b+4, d/b+3, d+3, d+4 and b+2>4. Kaz is hardly a poking character IMHO though. To me the tracking and his strengths are not in poking because he simply just doesn't have the tools and a spammable mid poke. b+2>4 is decent enough but not on the level of a generic d/f+1.
- I generally rely on character knowledge, -5 onwards I usually a CD mixup (CD,f,f+3, CDC,WS+1,2, HS,1 etc.) standing mixup (f,f+3, d/b+4, f+4 etc.) or d/f+2 to CH a move that they might use in an attempt to beat my move after being on -5, IE: Opponent Devil Jin uses d/f+1>2 (-7/-8) and I know they'll attempt 1,1>2 to beat out my CD mixup so I use d/f+2 in anticipation for a CH fish ETC. f+4 is also good as is f,f+3.
- Being overly aggressive IMO is OK depending on the type of opponent you're versing. If the opponent likes to defend like crazy, I don't see why not. If you have a significant life lead or if your opponent's weakness is in stopping your mixups etc.
- IMHO Kaz generally tends to suffer against those that can SS well and those that can launch a good offense or keep you in significant lockdown. His tools in shutting that down tend to get a little predictable.
- IMO characters that complement Kaz's playstyle include those that can poke really well. Kaz's weakness is usually in his poking but everything else he is IMO really good especially as his TA fillers and enders tend to be quite versatile.
- The playstyles I use generally depend on the opponent's playstyle. I am usually quite a defensive player so I tend to be backdashing a lot and rely on spacing tools, if my opponent gets attack happy I will use SS a bit more, but if they're a bit more defensive I tend to be a little bit more linear in my approach.

I will add more when I'm less sleepy
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AldrinOlay
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#37 “Quote” Edit Post
[youtube]V1jlTVHf-Vg[/youtube]
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
Thank you. Feel free to disagree or propose counter-arguments to my ramblings. My observations are just my point of view, but I know you guys may see things that I don't, or see them in a different light altogether - so by all means, chime in if you want.

I still remember watching this for the first time and Mishi-gasming, lol. Ahh... back in the day when I thought the fact that I could d/f2 electric like 30% of the time made me baller, lmao.
Knee vs Qudans
Notice that Knee's provocative style still applies, even with a different character back in '07. Dude is way too solid.

But yeah, anyway, to further support what I was saying earlier about macro-management vs. super specialization, here's an interesting article based on a recent international study. Remember guys, keep an open mind. Everything is relative.

edit: Shoutouts to 8-frame jabs!!1


I like your breakdowns. How about an analysis on deku's playstyle? I know he's not a kazuya player but mishimas are more or less similar to each other right?

Here's a video on Deku
Deku vs Nobi
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#38 “Quote” Edit Post
Mmff... PAX East was this weekend, and I got about 4 hours sleep. Forgive me if this breakdown is ass.

Ah thank you. Deku was on my list, and I was already watching both that and the following Emperor match to dissect his play style. Wasn't sure if I should mention him, so I'm glad you brought him up! Not a whole lot can be gathered from the Nobi vid in my opinion - mostly because of the playstyle of his opponent. Both players appear to be kind of just doing their own thing, without too much adaptation or hardcore meta going on - i.e. business as usual, albiet high level business.

I want you guys to check this one out after watching a bit of the vs. Lars/Drag match, and try to set aside what exactly made the difference in Deku's style of play. Although Lars/Drag seems an excellent team (as most Lars/X teams are), it doesn't really "affect" Deku's form much. However, play from Nashi, the following TeamKorea player, forces Deku to change the way he goes about approaching the match, and gives Deku quite a bit of trouble in the process. Despite the outcome, I think this is important stuff to note.
Deku vs Naishi


One of my first observations from this match was that Baek/Hwo both have lows with mix-up potential on hit or block. This poses no catastrophic threat as it were, but provides both enemy characters with a disruptor vs. the Mishima style. At any point during the match, if Nashi feels that he wants to chance turning the momentum in his favor, or simply harassing and changing the pace of the match, Wavedash has no real solution for this without some form of commitment. You may say "Duh." but little intricacies like this change the outcome of matches all the time. It forced Deku to play more lame, and attempt to stay out of Nashi's range. Against characters like the Koreans, high defense is a must, but Deku starts out kind of sluggish in that department imo.

Some interesting notes of Deku's play style: he plays relatively safe, trying to space the opponent out at long range, but doesn't really focus on space control once either he or his opponent get inside. He freezes up and holds block or takes a swing - not really making any hard decisions until he feels he needs to. Only when he feels there is a problem does he begin to make changes, as shown in this fight. Notice that Deku starts stepping Nashi a lot more than he was Nobi. Unfortunately, when he does decide to make any sort of defensive decision, it isn't always a prudent one. Deku seems to always want to press buttons once a confrontation is forced, and I think that's why this battle went back and forth, when it didn't have to. There are several points throughout the match where, despite his somewhat solid spacing and "I'm gonna play defensive-ish" tendencies, he blatantly raw tags right in front of the opponent, and sometimes gets killed for it. A lot of players do this, I'm sure - myself included, but a tempered exemplary player does not. Notice that in Knee's vids he actually goes balls-to-the-wall and intentionally does NOT tag out when his character is just a jab away from death, simply because he knows the opponent is expecting him to. This means their minds are not where they should be: on him, and he often scores incredible comebacks taking advantage of this. Once again, this shows us that our emotions appear to not be our friend in this game, lol.

Deku is pro-active, but hesitant. Not quite in the way Knee is, though - he is just wavedashing in your face to make you press a button. Deku wavedashes, stops, sometimes does stuff, and sometimes gets hit because of it, or gets the yomi level 1 stuff (high or low) blocked/ducked and punished. As the match goes on, Deku does begin to adapt, using spacing more and making less potentially destructive decisions. His offensive decisions are fine, and I don't have a whole lot to say on that. All in all, I would say that he is a solid player, but probably not one of the big tournament winners in the area. If I am wrong, please correct me, but his indecisiveness and scatter-braininess, along with his inability to identify and resolve problems quickly on the fly don't strike me as instilling fear and confusion into the hearts of his enemies. On the grand scale, he is just another Mishima player imho. Once again I must use Knee as the measuring stick in that department (instilling fear), at least for Mishima players of the present.

Last edited by Kurai Ryu on Mar 25th, 2013 at 00:14

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Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
[Kaz]11 party on the wall all day.
Kazzy_Jin
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#39 “Quote” Edit Post
I'd like to hop into the vid discussion but unfortunately I can't watch them. All I can do is read lol. Keep it up guys!
Cyrox
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#40 “Quote” Edit Post
You can only hitconfirm all these moves except for 1,1,2 visually, seeing that an opponent did an action that will yield you a hit after you pressed the first move, then proceed to input the second move.

Random guard in practice will remove any delusions of "real" hitconfirmable moves as they exist in 3rd Strike for example, where you can link supers after a regular moves recovery therefore making it hitconfirmable "for real".
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