Philosophy of Mishima

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Kurai Ryu
is SUPERCHARGED!!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5452
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: Kurairyu
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
So I've been a member of this board for a while, but I've never really seen Kazuya adequately discussed in terms of sophisticated game-play. Sure, there are insightful posts scattered across different topics here and there, but it's sometimes difficult for some (myself included) to gain a grasp on just exactly how to play this character in different situations. Why do certain things not work with Kazuya that work for 90% of the cast? Likewise, what does Kazuya have over the rest of the cast? In this topic, I aim to fuel discussion on the rhetoric of playing Kazuya Mishima, and what that means for the way we play the game.

This discussion can be from very basic fundamentals to super-involved meta. I think it's about time we pick apart this character openly and honestly, so that we may harness his strengths, be wary of his weaknesses, and attempt to improve upon them.

If any mod thinks this topic is fruitless, feel free to delete/lock.

Some things I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on:

- What kind of character is Kaz?
- How do you play him?
- What are your panic buttons, if any?
- What poke moves do you use, and why?
- What kind of traps do you use? ie - frame traps, tech traps, post-throw mix-up, etc.
- Do you think it's okay to be overly aggressive with Kaz? If so, when, and why?
- What characters do you feel are bad match-ups for Kaz?
- What secondary characters do you feel make up for Kazuya's shortcomings?
- What kind of style(s) do you play with - and what determines this?

These are just a few questions I'd like to hear discussed. If you guys have any more, please feel free - I feel like there isn't enough free Kaz rhetoric discussion in this board. I know a lot of you are very passionate about the character, as I am, so please take the time to read and discuss. You never know how putting your thoughts down on paper (or on the internet, in this case) can change the way you approach things.

The bottom line of this thread is understanding the character at the most basic level, then moving on from there. As with anything, if you want to be good at something, you need to first strengthen your fundamentals.
Signature ~aka Nightblade~ "OhRiri?"

Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
[Kaz]11 party on the wall all day.
GanymeDes
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 147
From: Finland
PSN: GanymeDes-
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
How I see it, is that Kazuya basically has the best low and high move in the game, but lacks in the mid department big time. Electric is a versatile move, but is hard to use, so you must be the master of it, especially with Kazuya, since it's "all he has".

The low I'm talking about is naturally hellsweep. Even though it's death on block, it scares the shit out of people due to it's range, the possibility of doing it out of wavedash, and especially at the wall. Yet again, mastering this move is essential, since you can't abuse it at all. The difficulty of it is being unpredictable with it. It's the ultimate meta game move.

And due to the nature of hellsweep, we get to his final strength; His 50/50 mixups. Crouchdash cancel twin pistons / hellsweep, ws3 / hellsweep, etc.

The problem of Kazuya is that he can't abuse either of his best moves: electric or hellsweep, since they both can be avoided & launched simply by ducking. Aside from this, he also lacks any "panic" moves, or any other good (abusable) mid moves.
NYG5
Iron Fist God
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1571
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
because his movelist is relatively simple, combined with wd mixups, he's a really good mind fuck character.

once you get someone on their heels, they're at your mercy. leave gaps in your offense and throw in d/f+2, kill evasive chars with standing tp or d/f+1,2/4.

what hurts kaz is when someone plays like another kaz, ie, good defense, isn't too risky. players who can outdo your patience
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
What kind of character is Kaz?

As an opponent Kaz forces you into constant sidestepping, ducking or attacking to avoid hellsweep. Also teching against Kazuya risks being in a dangerous mixup. His throws aren't that scary other than ff1+2 at the walls. His wallcarry and juggle damage are great.

His framegame is strong at walls due to f4, ff1+2 and electric. Even f4 has some tracking ability once opponent is in disadvantage with their back to the wall.

Also theres wallsplatting b1<2 that is i11 and can be hitconfirmed to induce fear of stepping with your back to the wall.
I cant hitconfirm that.

Without walls, Kazuya has hard time to stay in advantage since ewgf will pushback but its enforcing the advantage to let kazuya go for hellsweep tp mixup without being interrupted.

His whiff punishing and block punishing are great.
If Kazuya is willing to throw out EWGF's, it can be difficult to approach him.

Weakness would be not having standing fast mid that can be just thrown out there. This means every standing mid he is willing to throw out is a commitment. If you can make Kazuya throw around standing mids and step them you get to launch punish. Even if you end having them blocked, most of them are really bad on block so you can apply mixup or even punishable.

His safest mid is while standing 4, which is usually applied through approach with wavedashing and then using it. The move itself does not have great tracking, but wavedash makes moves track great. Also it has a good range, making avoiding wavedash ws4 difficult. After hitting you with ws4 he gains +8 advantage and electric can't be interrupted or stepped. But leaving his frames unchallenged can also be dangerous because of hellsweep to mixup.

How do you play him?

Whiff bait, whiff punish, block punish, if I know frame disadvantage opponent has after block, apply corresponding mixup or if they habit attacking with i14 leeaway, df2.
if I need to open I'll wave into ws4. On hit I'll play frames, on block I'll either go back to mentioned before or just electric anyway. Or sidestep electric.

What are your panic buttons, if any?
I suspect that panic move is a move to gain control of the frames, so generic d4 after blocking a move I suspect to be +1 or less on block. It will loose to generic low crush (i9) until -4.

What poke moves do you use, and why?
for entering frames, I'll whiff punish with b2<4 or open with wavedash ws4. in Open its ewgf and f4 and once opponent stops trying to interrupt, hellsweep tp mixup.

ws4 is only mid that you can "just throw out", not because its launch safe on whiff but because when used right its really hard to avoid. on block its -2 and on hit its +8.

b24 is for whiff punishing. It itself whiffs so long it can be launched. It has better range than df1 and if Im already holding b to block, its fast and easy to input.

f4 is +3 on block and after ws4 it only looses to jabs. Opponent can't step away from it. On block opponents stepping can be stopped with electric at p1.

+3 is only enough for b1<2 to beat stepping and standing attacks. If opponent is willing to go for high crush, its time for df2 or movement. b1<2 last part might whiff even if hitconfirmed when opponent has stepped left.
I cant hitconfirm that. b1 alone is +1 on hit and -10 on block.

What kind of traps do you use? ie - frame traps, tech traps, post-throw mix-up, etc.
bitchkicks into db4_f3. doesnt cover staying down, dash stomp or df3 for that. No frame traps. Sometimes I go for ufnn3, but I haven't really explored the tech traps.

Do you think it's okay to be overly aggressive with Kaz? If so, when, and why?
too aggressive by definition? Kazuya is the champion of "balls deep mix" with hellsweep and tp 50/50, so when needed, yes. If you can pull it off.

What characters do you feel are bad match-ups for Kaz?
not enough experience say

What secondary characters do you feel make up for Kazuya's shortcomings?
Character with a good bound to turn ewgf float catch into proper juggle. Also it might be good to have someone with i12 or i13 mid that isn't bad on whiff so that both characters wouldn't have same problem.

What kind of style(s) do you play with - and what determines this?
When I play with all button controller I tend to bind the keys so that I can do df2 pew pew db2 dew dew while holding my other hand up in the air to show how useless skill i've learned. Also I try to maximize the "coolness" by not looking at the screen, but staring at my opponent.

with stick I've tried learning doing double electric thing for punishing, where when Im on block animation I let go of my stick, move both my hands about 10cm to the sides and above of the stick and attempt to do in a single motion electric while i move hands over the stick cross armed again about 10 cm to the sides and above. Then backwards arms cross electric while I return my hands to starting position. Its really difficult, but im certain that it will be an important skill later on.

Last edited by vittujee on Mar 14th, 2013 at 21:54

Kurai Ryu
is SUPERCHARGED!!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5452
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: Kurairyu
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Nice posts guys! I'll read up and reply soon.
Signature ~aka Nightblade~ "OhRiri?"

Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
[Kaz]11 party on the wall all day.
Kazzy_Jin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1125
From: Cuba
PSN: yeah right....
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
Also theres wallsplatting b1<2 that is i11 and can be hitconfirmed

b+1,2 cannot be hitconfirmed
NYG5
Iron Fist God
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1571
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazzy_Jin
b+1,2 cannot be hitconfirmed


yes it can, theres just a very small window to do it in
Kazzy_Jin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1125
From: Cuba
PSN: yeah right....
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
...and that very small window is what makes it impossible to hitconfirm. Delayable? Yes. Hitconfirmable? No
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazzy_Jin
...and that very small window is what makes it impossible to hitconfirm. Delayable? Yes. Hitconfirmable? No
since your first reply, i tested this with random blocking. even tried to make it easier for myself by making opponent first block f4 and then random block what comes next. I used few days just to see if I at the times when I feel like "im in the zone" if I could do it. but no. I can not hit confirm it.

In some games it probably has felt like I had hitconfirmed, and while I might have won rounds or matches with that, I probably have lost as well. I dont think I can hitconfirm df44 or b24 either. only one i think i might be able to hit confirm is df3<2, but its far from perfect. I need to drop all hit confirm attempts from my play.

thanks Kazzy_Jin
GanymeDes
Expert
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 147
From: Finland
PSN: GanymeDes-
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
I've been saying this for a long time. b12 is not hit confirmable. I don't believe anyone can really hit confirm it. At best it's "whiff confirmable", meaning if the first hit whiffs you won't follow up with the second hit.

Also, I think the hit confirm in df44 is easier than in df32.

My ranking of Kazuya's hit confirmable moves by difficulty:

b12 (practically impossible)
b24 (not impossible, but not very practical either due to the risk and difficulty)
df32 (certainly doable)
df44 (easy enough)
112 (anyone can do this one)
Kurai Ryu
is SUPERCHARGED!!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5452
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: Kurairyu
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Do you guys think wd~iws1,2 is essential to Kaz play? I have found it has made an enormous difference in whether players in my area respect my Kaz or not. My punishment is relatively on point - getting better anyway, movement is decent, decision making is very good, and throw breaks are on point, but still people like to press buttons or random duck me at nearly every opportunity. iws1,2 is the only thing that makes people really start respecting the space I can cover, and the fact that I have a mid launcher that cannot be reacted to, and forces them to make a hard call. What kind of styles do you guys use to combat random duck? I don't mean crouch at every opportunity - I'm talking about smart fuzzy guard at the very moment a wavedash is sensed or recognized.
Signature ~aka Nightblade~ "OhRiri?"

Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
[Kaz]11 party on the wall all day.
GanymeDes
Expert
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 147
From: Finland
PSN: GanymeDes-
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
Do you guys think wd~iws1,2 is essential to Kaz play? I have found it has made an enormous difference in whether players in my area respect my Kaz or not. My punishment is relatively on point - getting better anyway, movement is decent, decision making is very good, and throw breaks are on point, but still people like to press buttons or random duck me at nearly every opportunity. iws1,2 is the only thing that makes people really start respecting the space I can cover, and the fact that I have a mid launcher that cannot be reacted to, and forces them to make a hard call. What kind of styles do you guys use to combat random duck? I don't mean crouch at every opportunity - I'm talking about smart fuzzy guard at the very moment a wavedash is sensed or recognized.

I consider cdc12 to be essential for effective and solid Kazuya play. It's the move you must use in order to make the wavedash mix ups really work -- be it the ewgf or hellsweep they try to duck, this is the move that will make them think twice.
Kazzy_Jin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1125
From: Cuba
PSN: yeah right....
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
since your first reply, i tested this with random blocking. even tried to make it easier for myself by making opponent first block f4 and then random block what comes next. I used few days just to see if I at the times when I feel like "im in the zone" if I could do it. but no. I can not hit confirm it.

In some games it probably has felt like I had hitconfirmed, and while I might have won rounds or matches with that, I probably have lost as well. I dont think I can hitconfirm df44 or b24 either. only one i think i might be able to hit confirm is df3<2, but its far from perfect. I need to drop all hit confirm attempts from my play.

thanks Kazzy_Jin
Anytime, bro!
Do you guys think wd~iws1,2 is essential to Kaz play? I have found it has made an enormous difference in whether players in my area respect my Kaz or not. My punishment is relatively on point - getting better anyway, movement is decent, decision making is very good, and throw breaks are on point, but still people like to press buttons or random duck me at nearly every opportunity. iws1,2 is the only thing that makes people really start respecting the space I can cover, and the fact that I have a mid launcher that cannot be reacted to, and forces them to make a hard call. What kind of styles do you guys use to combat random duck? I don't mean crouch at every opportunity - I'm talking about smart fuzzy guard at the very moment a wavedash is sensed or recognized.
While wd~iws1,2 may not be ESSENTIAL, it will definitely make your game a hell of a lot stronger, which is what makes the difference in the 'amount' of respect for your game.
With tekken lately being so random (not complaining, just saying), random ducking and pressing buttons in reaction to a wavedash has become a very popular thing...and popular becomes effective when not handled in a smart way. Personally, I've gotten the best results by wd'ing into blocking or into backdashing. Some times I'm like WTF? I was trying to hit you and all I had to do was let you whiff in my face and kill you?, now it's so easy I'm getting bored lol. Yeah, people are going crazy with this 'interrupt wd bandwagon'
I'm a pad player and I feel that this is the reason I mess up cd into ws so much. My favourite moment to use it is when whiff punishing low get up kicks, but again, I'm not very confident in my wd~ws skills. I find myself using wd into the new f,f+2(devil kazuya's) more often than not. I love this move so much and it is -10 which is fine by me. It has become my number one tool against ducking.

I'M LOVING THIS THREAD, BTW!
GanymeDes
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 147
From: Finland
PSN: GanymeDes-
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazzy_Jin
I find myself using wd into the new f,f+2(devil kazuya's) more often than not. I love this move so much and it is -10 which is fine by me. It has become my number one tool against ducking.

Might as well go for cdc12 since they are both -13...
Kurai Ryu
is SUPERCHARGED!!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5452
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: Kurairyu
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
It sort of sucks not having a mid launcher that's safe, like so many d/f2's of the game... but to be honest? wd~iws1,2 is pretty cheap, especially since it's only -13. Worst case scenario, you get electric'd by God Kaz players, but most of the time, it's a simple knockdown punish - albeit usually a pretty hefty one. Still, though, the risk is dwarfed by the reward. Mishimas can a turn simple serendipitous float combo into a hardcore 80-90 damage pain party in this game, so instant NC launchers out of a stance mix-up that's only -13 isn't all that deterring if you ask me. It's more than fair.

There's some advice for all of you who are afraid to use this tool under the guise of staying safe. If that's your play, you've got the wrong character bro, lol.

On an unrelated note, I've unfortunately been unable to consistently play TTT2 on my PS3 as of late. The system simply shuts off whenever Tag is playing for whatever reason. This is the only game it has ever happened to, which sucks, because it's the game I want to play the most. That being said, this is the reason I've been attempting to dive into the rhetoric of exactly how I play Kaz, and why I play the way I do. This pushes me toward very basics ways of thinking when I actually do play, like last night when a bunch of Massholes and I were at a session. I hadn't been playing for previously explained reasons, so a high execution character like Kaz, logically, takes some time to readjust.

While playing, I found that the less I concentrated on trying to get in on my opponent and the more I hovered around range 2 to 3, poking a bit, electric punishing any whiffs and keeping hellsweeps coming whenever they get comfortable, people tend to start getting a little jumpy.

What kind of mindset do you guys try to stay in while you play? Are you focusing on anything in particular? Or are you just feeling things out the first round or so, so that you know what to look out for or how to adapt? I know some Kaz players that jump in headlong and press as many buttons as possible, and it's relatively effective, but I tend to bait more - I am more patient, because I know players at very high levels thrive on players who like to press buttons. I've experienced them, and it calmed my play quite a bit. How do you Kaz? O.o
Signature ~aka Nightblade~ "OhRiri?"

Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
[Kaz]11 party on the wall all day.
lilleboff
the daoug
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1572
From: Norway
PSN: lilleboff
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
It sort of sucks not having a mid launcher that's safe, like so many d/f2's of the game...

Well, there's f,f+3. And it's not like you have to use a mid launcher from wavedash. You can always pressure with f+4 or other safe mids.
Signature It's hard to be humble, when you're as great as me
GanymeDes
Expert
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 147
From: Finland
PSN: GanymeDes-
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by lilleboff
Well, there's f,f+3. And it's not like you have to use a mid launcher from wavedash. You can always pressure with f+4 or other safe mids.

I believe he was referring to faster, "unreactable" mids. The problem of ff3 is that your opponent can basically stay crouched, and go to standing guard on reaction once they see an animation starting. This happens mostly with players who have experience against Kazuya. This the very reason why you must use cdc12. Also, I think it is completely pointless to use a move such as ws4 out of wavedash unless you are trying to finish them off. You have the scariest mix up in the game, so make some goddamn use of it! Otherwise you might be better off playing another character.
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
On an unrelated note, I've unfortunately been unable to consistently play TTT2 on my PS3 as of late. The system simply shuts off whenever Tag is playing for whatever reason.

Have you tried re-installing the game data? Give it a try.
Originally posted by Kurai Ryu
What kind of mindset do you guys try to stay in while you play? Are you focusing on anything in particular? Or are you just feeling things out the first round or so, so that you know what to look out for or how to adapt? I know some Kaz players that jump in headlong and press as many buttons as possible, and it's relatively effective, but I tend to bait more - I am more patient, because I know players at very high levels thrive on players who like to press buttons. I've experienced them, and it calmed my play quite a bit. How do you Kaz? O.o

I start off with as many hellsweeps as possible to make them respect the mix up (assuming they don't). If you can land like three or so straight after the start, the chances of landing a cdc12 increase dramatically. As for the overall playstyle, you need to find the openings to apply the wavedash mix ups (whiffs & punishes = knockdowns & plus frames). Playing defensive until said openings happen is the way to go with Kazuya. Electric and f3 are great for keepout.

Last edited by GanymeDes on Mar 18th, 2013 at 13:38

Kurai Ryu
is SUPERCHARGED!!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5452
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: Kurairyu
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
I tried deleting and reinstalling the game data. I haven't tried my save data, but I'm pretty sure that's not the issue. I even deleted the patch in case something was corrupted. I've got an old fat 60G, so maybe it's just old... O_o It's just pretty lame that Tag 2 is the only game that has ever given it the least bit of trouble.

But yes, GanymeDes, I was talking about quick 'unreactable' mids. Sometimes I don't use ff3 as much as I maybe should, admittedly. If opponents aren't randomly ducking against me, they are usually SWL'ing, so I would rather just go with cd~iTwin Pistons for a good mid. It's just difficult playing the game for the first few rounds having to reprogram assholes who think there is an easy way out of the mix-up other than making a better hard decision than me. This has always been an interesting thing to me. In Cali, Japan, and hot spots where players are high level, and players are more calculated, I actually do quite well. It's the fine art of 'scrub-killing' that sometimes eludes me, especially because there is so much random new shit I have yet to learn in Tag 2, lol.

Yes, I always try to open up with Hellsweeps as soon as possible. Only now am I realizing just how stupid the range of that move is. Love it!
Signature ~aka Nightblade~ "OhRiri?"

Originally posted by MYK [jamgi]
[Kaz]11 party on the wall all day.
Kazzy_Jin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1125
From: Cuba
PSN: yeah right....
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
OK, my mindset with Kazuya:
I need to throw out EWGF, like tons of them. It's like I need them to stay focused.
If I sense(or know) my opponent isn't too familiar with the Kaz match up I do as GanymeDes said and throw more HS's than I normally would. The thing is, if you face someone that doesn't know Kaz very well in the same way you do it when you're opponent is versed in this match up, you may get stuck without knowing why. It's happenned to me. Just go crazy until your opponent becomes very cautios because HS exists. Just then, the real thing starts(which is the same as facing someone who knows Kaz). It's really hard to describe as I think Kaz is a char that requires you to be very aware of every little thing happening around you. Some people think that because of his 50/50, Kaz should be played offensively, and I disagree. A wd(even Kaz's) is not that scary against a standing opponent. When not in an oki situation I use wd~ws+4 a lot. It's fast and safe enough to backdash or ss afterwards. Also, as I mentioned earlier wd into nothing and into backdashing

To sum up:
-EWGF to stay focused.
-In Kurai Ryu's words, feel things out(not the first round but the whole match). Awareness.
-vs standing: wd into nothing. OKI: wd into crazyness
-No bullying, unless opponent doesn't know shit.
It's really difficult for me to describe what goes on in my mind when I play Kaz. I tried to make it as clear as I could.

@GanymeDes: and here I was thinking this whole time that f,f+2 was -10. thanks for the correction. I use it a lot because of its speed and range. cdc into TP is great but requires a little bit more of time to come out because of the execution and you need to be closer. you cancel and then execute TP, whereas with f,f+2 your cancel is the input for the move to come out(f,N,d,d/f,f+2 as you all know). you'd be amazed with the amount of CH I get by using wd into f,f+2.
GanymeDes
Expert
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 147
From: Finland
PSN: GanymeDes-
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazzy_Jin
I use it a lot because of its speed and range. cdc into TP is great but requires a little bit more of time to come out because of the execution and you need to be closer. you cancel and then execute TP, whereas with f,f+2 your cancel is the input for the move to come out(f,N,d,d/f,f+2 as you all know). you'd be amazed with the amount of CH I get by using wd into f,f+2.

Yeah, well that is why you use the tp only once they respect the wavedash. If they are just panicking and throwing out moves to stop you, then you wd into electric/block/backdash/sidestep. After being caught by that a couple of times they won't be so willing to interrupt you anymore. Fear the electric.

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