Going to Baek from Hwoarang

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Toki
3rd Dan
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm a long-time Hwoarang player (T5). I'm sure a lot of you are Hwoarang players as well as Hwoarang-Baek pairs are very popular. I tried picking up Baek before TTT2 but my competence with him never touched anywhere to my aptitude with Hwoarang. I've restarted seriously learning him again.

Any advice for someone learning Baek after learning Hwoarang? I've been looking at him from a Hwoarang perspective with regards to which moves are equal or equivalent and areas he's differently entirely. I'd like to share my thoughts and for you to critique, if you could.

My current impressions are:


- The punches he shares with Hwoarang are comparable.

1,1 doesn't have Hwo's 3,3 continue but it's not a big deal. b+2 and ub+2 are exactly the same. uf+2 is the same but it seems to be more useful for Baek? It just seems to fit his other moves more.

2 is less safe and more limited in terms of getting into FLA. Baek has no bait game from 2 similar to Hwoarang's 2,f+3 (long, linear, mid) and 2,f+4 (long, tracking, high). All he has is 2,2 (NC?) which is very good but much more limited. You have to generally land the 2 to use 2,3 (to FLA) with Baek whereas, with Hwoarang, 2,3 (and 2,4) are covered with the two aforementioned moves. I'll talk about 1,2,3~FLA with 3,3,4,4 since that seems more appropriate, from my impressions.

He makes up for this with a df+1 that's able to enter FLA, df+1, 3. I think it's a sorta a mixed bag since it's really hard to hit confirm. I haven't totally looked into it but I'm guessing this is more read based?


- His low moves from standing are more orthodox.

Baek has a generic i14 linear low beefed up to continues into decent chains. At CH and walls, these chains are very damaging.

His i16 low, d+3, hides high, has good range and has several good chains to mix.

To round it out, Baek also has a KD sweep, db+4 (very punishable).

To compare, Hwoarang has a very unorthodox low game based on low pokes: db+3 which is a tracking, i20, simple poke and d+4,4, an NCc launcher that's very hard to hit at i19 but is a serviceable safe low because of the long range. His low tracking i16, db+4,4, is also a spacing set-up for RFS (db+4, f to RFS).

So to sum, Baek has a low game more suited in short range with a generic i14 low, a i16 that hides high, and a low KD sweep for countering. I will have to play more Baek to really compare the effectiveness of their respective low games.


- Baek's low i17 mix-up is worse. His db+3,3 is NC and has good follow up, however, cancelling the second kick to FLA is riskier, at the same time, loses a hit. Hwoarang's low i17 chains can go into both RFS (d+3,4) and LFS (d+3,3) and both are NC.


This is it, for now. I'll write about his high/mid and long range game later.
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Well, I'm the opposite (I first did Baek as my second character in BR, and then I went to Hwo in TT2), but I guess we can discuss.

Both Hwo and Baek get a lot of utility off of thier jabs. Hwo more so because of cancel into FLA along with 1,2,f3... etc. A lot of Hwo players are willing to go in and jab to start offense, which is why they get ducked a lot (until they start JFSRing and stuff). But that said both Baek and Hwo don't have clear ways in i.e. Bob b2 df2 ff2, they have to use a lot of different moves to start an offense.

Baek's 2, yeah, it isn't like Hwo's 2. df1,3 is not HC as far as I'm concerned. Also don't overlooks Hwo's df1, even on block! Also Hwo's df1+2 is very good, feel like it has more range than df1.

Both Hwo and Baek's uf2s are great, Baek's I feel is easier because you can do it during FLA. Man, if you could do Hwo's uf2 out of one of his FLA, haha, that would be too good.

I feel with Hwo I throw out b2 a LOT more, since Baek has b3, b1, and other options, whereas b2 is ALL Hwo has (for the most part).

As for other good punch moves, Hwo's f2 is great, and then of course RFF jab, FLA jabs and LFS2_RFS1.

Baek's uppercut is great, it has much better range than Hwo's and all the other things generic uppercuts have going for it.

Hwo's db3 doesn't track... though it isn't very linear. d4 tracks much better than db3. db3 does high crush very early in the animation, and its more abusable than d3 I feel. Also don't forget about ss4, its comparable to Baek's ss low (ss3?)

Hmm, I agree that Baek has a more orthodox low game than Hwo. I would go even further than that and say Baek is more mainstream overall, with uf4 hopekick (as Budding would say), a sweep that can be used any time and magic 4, in addition to decent df1, great df2 and punch parry.

Sorry the post is a little disorganized.
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Toki
3rd Dan
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
Well, I'm the opposite (I first did Baek as my second character in BR, and then I went to Hwo in TT2), but I guess we can discuss.

Both Hwo and Baek get a lot of utility off of thier jabs. Hwo more so because of cancel into FLA along with 1,2,f3... etc. A lot of Hwo players are willing to go in and jab to start offense, which is why they get ducked a lot (until they start JFSRing and stuff). But that said both Baek and Hwo don't have clear ways in i.e. Bob b2 df2 ff2, they have to use a lot of different moves to start an offense.

Baek's 2, yeah, it isn't like Hwo's 2. df1,3 is not HC as far as I'm concerned. Also don't overlooks Hwo's df1, even on block! Also Hwo's df1+2 is very good, feel like it has more range than df1.


I didn't mention Hwoarang's df+1+2 since Baek didn't have it but yes. Hwoaran'gs df+1+2 = Jin's f+3. It's a great move though it really, really, really doesn't sit well with me that it's a punch. If it were me, I'd make his long i13 his old df+4 (the one that looks like Baek's df+4; it used to be i12).

I was actually planning to write about it later but since you already brought it up, let me continue, now (you actually got me off my butt to write):

- I think most Baek players believe Baek doesn't have good range? Because, yes, I feel the same way. I actually don't think it's long-range that's the problem but mid-range.

As already noted, he doesn't have a long i13 like Hwo's df+1+2 or Jin's f+3 and his only mid i14 is 1+2 which, at -10 on block, isn't really for mix-up. In comparison, Hwoarang has a crap-ton of long i14s that can be used for mix-up: df+3, df+4 (tracking, too, which makes it, I think, OP - but heck, Bruce has it as well - and has an ass animation), and uf+3+4 (also OP, IMO). But, it may not be fair to compare him to Hwoarang since this is one of the areas Hwo excels at.

He has a high, mid-range i14 since he has the same 3 as Hwo but their 3 series are way different and, I think, this is crux of the difference between them since their 3 series is the foundation of their styles.

- Hwoarang's 3,3 string has a hit box of HM. Baek's 3,3 hits HH; he can only hit M at the third kick of 3,3,4. Obviously, there's just better mid control for Hwoarang. This has implications on range, particularly with baiting the first 3 (the high i14). Hwoarang looks to hit with the second kick. Baek looks to hit with his third kick. Ie. Baek needs to bait his 3 farther than Hwoarang (I'm not gonna say Hwoarang's 3 has to be baited closer. He's actually even more potent at long range since he has a lot of choices with the third kick: 3,3,3; 3,3,4; 3,3,f+4 and a cop-out move with 3~4 if the player thinks the 3 will be countered). Baek's other 3 chains chains imply this:

3,4,3 - the second kick is a long low
3,3,3,4_d+4 - hits HHH; covered by 3,3,4

Jung Pa Dak, suggested in Budding's thread, uses 3,3 far away to close distance. By extension, 1,2,3 ... is used in the same manner. It's honestly great he has 3,3~FLA, now.

- The 1st mid kick is also indicative of the difference in styles. They can both perform the mid kick of their respective 3,3,4,4 from standing: df+3 for Hwoarang and df+4 for Baek.

Hwoarang's df+3 is, as noted earlier, a long i14 move while Baek's df+4 is a short but quicker i12 move.

Baek's df+4 is not as good at controlling range, obviously, but better at interruption and can be used as bait.

Entering FLA from df+4,4,3 in TTT2 is now harder since it's now jab interruptible which I think is fair since Baek had such an advantage over Hwo in this respect since df+3,4 is duckable.

- Another interesting thing to note about Baek's 3 series is that it's an amalgamation of Hwoarang's 3 and 4 series. Perhaps it's more appropriate to say that Hwoarang's 3 and 4 series were Baek's 3 series in T2 split apart. Baek's first 3 is Hwoarang's 3, both i14, but the second kick is like Hwo's second kick of his 4,4 chain in that it hits high. The third kick of Baek's 3,3,3 is also like Hwoarang's 4,4,4 in that it hits high. They both have a low ender: Baek's 3,3,3,d+4 and Hwoarang's 4,4,4,3 that look identical though Baek's has slightly less (-) frames (not sure if it's safe) but Hwoarang has a safer mid ender, 4,4,4,4 while Baek only has a high ender, 3,3,3,4. Does the 4 of this chain jail on block of the third 3? If not, I'm guessing the third 3 has to hit?

- Hwoarang's 4 series has way more potential for set-up, though. It used to be that Hwo's old 4 series was used as a closer version of Baek's 3 series since Hwo's 4 is i11. It's a tad different now with Hwo's 4 being buffed up to an insane range (it's, I think, as long as Hwo's much slower f+4, now). However, it's still interesting to look at the additional set-up ability of Hwo's 4 series.

Firstly, Hwo can hit M as early as second kick with 4,3. He can actually hit middle all the way through the 4 kick (as noted) after giving him 4,4,3 (which also bounds) in BR. [Hwoarang can also enter his various stances from a lot of the kicks in these strings: 4,3 cancel to LFS (useful but it looks so stupid and Hwo doesn't really need it; I hope they bring back his old 4,3~RFF, which actually has the second kick hit, go into another stance and creates a tiny bit of space by retreating - at least in T5), 4,4~f to RFF, 4,4,4 to RFS, and 4,4,4~f to RFF.]

Can any of these moves be adapted to Baek?


There's still some more I'd like to talk about - 4-series, long range, short range, flamingo - but I'll save that for later as I'm exhausted.

---

Replies to your other points.


Both Hwo and Baek's uf2s are great, Baek's I feel is easier because you can do it during FLA. Man, if you could do Hwo's uf2 out of one of his FLA, haha, that would be too good.

I feel with Hwo I throw out b2 a LOT more, since Baek has b3, b1, and other options, whereas b2 is ALL Hwo has (for the most part).

As for other good punch moves, Hwo's f2 is great, and then of course RFF jab, FLA jabs and LFS2_RFS1.

Baek's uppercut is great, it has much better range than Hwo's and all the other things generic uppercuts have going for it.

Hwo's db3 doesn't track... though it isn't very linear. d4 tracks much better than db3. db3 does high crush very early in the animation, and its more abusable than d3 I feel. Also don't forget about ss4, its comparable to Baek's ss low (ss3?)

Hmm, I agree that Baek has a more orthodox low game than Hwo. I would go even further than that and say Baek is more mainstream overall, with uf4 hopekick (as Budding would say), a sweep that can be used any time and magic 4, in addition to decent df1, great df2 and punch parry.

Sorry the post is a little disorganized.


Hwo also has ub+4 for evasion.

I don't use Hwo's f+2. It's slow, gives meager damage, and I don't find the follow-up very good.

Baeks' df+2 has bigger range than Hwo's?

My mastery of Tekken terms still isn't 100% so thank you for the correction regarding Hwo's db+3.

Baek is more mainstream. I think he's supposed to be a more accessible TKD character. Hwoarang is easily top 5 for hardest to play.
Toki
3rd Dan
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 32
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
- Baek's 4 is a much more utility move (eats a lot of moves, useful in a lot of situations), being a magic 4. It's slightly slower than Hwoarang's at i12 (vs. Hwo's i11). In the past, Hwo and Baek had equal range to their 4s but Hwo got a huge range buff to his 4 in Unlimited.

Still, Baek has the advantage of being able to pull his 4 after moving. Hwo cannot use his 4 in a lot of situations: f,n,4 goes to RFS while SS+4 is an entirely different move (this is just part of Hwo's style and it's covered by all his other moves). So, again, Baek's 4 is much more a utility move.

In terms of strings, it's well covered with both a mid (4,4) and his 10 strings (4,3 ...). The 10 strings give mix-up, as well.

So, to sum, it's not as good a set-up as Hwo's, but it's a better utility move.

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