Punishment

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forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Frame data: http://rbnorway.org/forest-ttt2-frames/

10 frames:

1,1,2 is high,high,high, 25 points, +6 on hit and counter, -1 on block, same frames as

1,2 is high,high and 19 points

2,2 BT is high,high, 20 points, +7 on hit and counter, -4 on block. Ends in Back Turned position. Hold DB to turn around and recover crouching and get some breathing room.

11 frames:

4,3 is high,high, 34 points, -5 on hit, launch on CH obviously, -14 on block

4,3,4,b is high,high, 34 points, -10 on hit, launch on CH, -19 on block

4,3>2 is high,high,mid. A long delay on the third hit to bait the CH is the purpose of using it. It is 34 points. If the 2 hits, it knocks down, and on counter, it is a launch. -8 on block with knee stun. Definitely "don't mess around frames," and they can WS+4, which is a very strong option against Forest after they block 4,3,2. A left sidewalk might avoid the WS+4...not sure. If you know and your name is noodalls, post up!

4,3 has more reach than 3,4. 4,3 punishes Leo's df+2, while 3,4 whiffs completely.

12 frames:

3,4 is high,high, 43 points, knocks down and wallsplats on hit and counter, only -10 on block, but this is still launchable since both hits are high.

The range on 3,4 is somewhat lacking...it may miss if you try to punish a getting up 4 with it, or at least it did have range issues with your typical 12 frame pinishes in Tekken 6 BR. Has the range on 3,4 improved in Tag 2? Post your opinions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...tQRirIzM#t=177s

3,4 also got a nerf...the recovery time on 3,4 is much longer now on hit. Law gets no real good okizeme from his 3,4 anymore if they techroll. 3,4 can still get Law a wall combo at really close range, but the only bound move that Law can use is b+2,2. f+1+2 and f,f+4,3 both miss.

f+2,N+2, BT is high,high, 22 points and should have all the same frame data as 2,2. +7 on hit and counter, -4 on block. f+2 should have more range than 3,4...at least it did in Tekken 6. But in Tekken 6, Law had f+2,f+2,2 as a punisher. f+2,f+2,2 is no longer a combo. Might be worth it to stick to 3,4, despite its range issues.

f,f+3+4 is a 12 frame launching grab that you can ~Tag from. Despite the fact that the opponent can break the grab, you can use it for a launch attempt at 12 frames by buffering the f,f so when you press f+3+4 the grab comes out rigt away.

Law can use f,f+3+4 for a high unblockable wallsplat, too:
f,f+3+4, uf+4 (W!), b+2,2 (B!), db+4,4

13 frames:

df+1,3,2 is mid,low,mid, 29 points. Not sure what the frames are...I do believe df+1,3,2 is -10 on block at least though, maybe more, and probably about -4 on hit, but I really am not sure. inatekken does not have it.

df+4 is mid, 20 points, +3 on hit and counter, and -8 on block, pretty bad on block for a generic df+4, so do not abuse it. Law's df+4 is different from most characters' generic df+4 mid kick. It is worse on block than most characters'...most generic df+4s are -4 on block. Most generic df+4s are 12 frames. Law's df+4 is also different in that is leaves Law quite close to the opponent on block, in range of a standing basic 2, even. uf+4 will whiff most of the time, but df+2 will almost always reach them after a blocked df+4.
14 frames:

b+4,3 has great range, knocks down, wallsplats, is 45 points, and can setup and running mixup, especially if they roll back when they get up from it.

3+4 is mid,mid, 36 points, knocks down and wallsplats on hit and counter, only -10 on block. 3+4 is a safer option to punish a -14 move than b+4,3 since the second hit is mid and -10. 3+4 has good range, but it does not track.

db+2 is mid, 20 points, is an elbow so can not be reversed, +7 on hit and counter, -4 on block, ends in Back Turned position.

15 frames:

df+2 is a special mid, so if it hits a crouching opponent, they are not launched. It does 16 points, 1 point less than Law's uf+4 hopckick, but df+2 has more range than uf+4. +4 on hit if it hits a crouching opponent, -7 on block. Law's df+2 has very good tracking, and is one of the better df+2s in the game. It has more range than many other characters' df+2s, but that is probably because Law's df+2 is his best standing launching punisher. df+2 high crushes for a few frames, too.

f+3,4 has been nerfed in Tekken Tag Tournament 2, and is now Forest's 15 frame punisher for things that df+2 can not reach, such as punishing a Forest b+3+4.

uf+4 is a true mid 15 frame launcher, 17 points, and is -13 on block like all the other hopkicks in Tekken Tag 2. The range on Law's uf+4 has always been bad when compared to other characters' uf+4 hopkicks. You would use uf+4 instead of df+2 if you were pretty positive that there is a very good chance the opponent will crouch at short range. But if Law has his 1,1,2 or 1,2 blocked and he is at -1, if Law then does uf+4, a jab will float Law for a combo, unlike 1,2 (blocked), df+2, which may launch the opponent instead, since df+2 has some high crush. uf+4 is a low crush just like any other hopkick.

You should use df+2 more than uf+4, but uf+4 is still very important since it is a true mid. If df+2 was a true mid and still -7 on block, there would be absolutely no reason to ever use uf+4 except if you knew the opponent was going to do a low attack.

16 frames:

b+1,2 is mid,mid, 30 points, +1 on hit and counter, and -13 on block.

b+2,2 has very good range and tracks a bit in both directions, is mid,high, 29 points, +4 on hit and counter, and -9 on block.

17 frames:

f,f+4,3 is a new bound move in Tag 2, and if it hits standing or crouching opponents, it is a launcher! It has very good range, and it is therefore a very important long range launch punisher, having MUCH longer range than his UF+4 Backflipper. While the timing is quite strict to get the perfect 17 frame long range launch punish, and there is also a risk in using it, since it is -14 on block, launch punishable by some characters, it is indeed a welcome addition to Law's punishment.

An example of how important f,f+4,3 is as a punisher is in launch punishing another Law's SS+2,1,2,1. The pushback from the SS+2,1,2,1 is very big, and the move is only -20, despite how the move's animation makes it seem longer. UF+4 will not be able to punish...only f,f+4,3 can launch punish it, or b+2,2 can also reach for a long range punish.

An example of a simple f,f+4,3 TA! combo is:

VS Forest SS+2,1,2,1 (blocked), Forest ~f,f+4,3~Tag (TA!) Marshall SSR, uf+3,4, Forest f,f, df+1, f+4,3,4 (75 pts)


f,f+2,3 is mid,high, knocks down and wallsplats. While f,f+2,3 is hit confirmable, it has much less range than b+2,2. 41 points of damage, and -17 on block with okay pushback, it does not jail, meaning that they can crouch under the second hit and WS launch Law, if they do not have a good 17 frame standing launcher, like if they are using Steve, for instance. The first hit is only -7 on block.


df+3 is 24 points, mid, -1 on hit and -12 on block. It has decent range, although less range than b+2,2. On normal hit, the second hit of the df+3 string, df+3,3, is not a combo and is -14 on block, so some characters like Chreddy, Kazuya, and Bruce can launch punish it if you get greedy and go for it and they block it. df+3,3,4 ends with a mid flip that is -17~-16 on block.

While df+3 is bad on block at -12, you can make it safer by sometimes using df+3,3,3. It is still launch punishable though, since it ends with a high kick.


18 frames:

UF+4 is a mid ~Tag bufferable launcher, and is -17~-15 on block. Recovers crouching. inatekken says it is 18~20 frames, though, so punishing a -18 move with it might be a risk. Unfortunately, UF+4 is about all Law has for a big standing launch until delayed hopkick.

20 frames:

uf,N,4 delayed hopkick, the "faster version" that only Law seems to have.


WS punishment

11 frames:

WS+4 is an 18 point mid right kick, +7 on hit and counter, -4 on block. Almost no tracking.


12(13) frames:

uf+1,3 is a high,low combo that should, I think, come out at 12 frames, not positive, and it does 26 points. Since the first hit is a high, though, they had to have done a standing low, like a Law db+3.

13 frames:

WS+1,2 is a mid,high, 34 points knockdown that is hit confirmable up to a point. It is possible to delay the second hit too long for it not to combo, so be careful. -17 on block, plus the fact that the second hit is a high, PLUS no DSS to speak of, and you get the picture, this is an extremely punishable punisher. You had better be on point with it, or you could be looking at a loss of a lot of health instead of a simple 13 frame punish.

SSup~3,4
You can crouch cancel, which takes a frame, and then immediately use Law's 12 frame standing 3,4 as a punish if they are standing in the recovery.

14 frames:

FC UF+4 Catapult Kick High is 14 frames, 40 points, and knocks down, but has short range and is VERY launch punishable on block, -21, despite the guard stun it seems to give. Law can recover crouching if you hold down on the stick when Law lands.

FC UB+4,D is the same as Catapult Kick High only it does less damage, 33 points. FC UB+4,D is a great move though because it is really fast, safe, and it can be used to set up a slide mixup. I personally nicknamed FC UB+4,D "Escape." I often trade hits with an opponent's df+1 or similar poke, and they ask me, "Why did I get hit for so much damage?"

15 frames:

WS+2 is nicknamed "Statue of Liberty," Law's legendary Dragon Uppercut is a mid ~Tag launcher that dishes out the justice! -18 on block with pushback, many characters can not launch Laws for it on block, they have to go with a shoulder move instead that has good range so it can reach Law. One of, if not THE BEST WS launch punishers in the game, this move should always reach them for a launch if you blocked a -15 low move, despite any amount of pushback it might have.

17 frames:

f,f+4,3 is a new bound move in Tag 2, and if it hits standing or crouching opponents, it is a launcher! It has very good range, and it is therefore a very important long range launch punisher, having MUCH longer range than his UF+4 Backflipper. While the timing is quite strict to get the perfect 17 frame long range launch punish, and there is also a risk in using it, since it is -14 on block, launch punishable by some characters, it is indeed a welcome addition to Law's punishment.

An example of a simple f,f+4,3 TA! combo is:

VS Forest SS+2,1,2,1 (blocked), Forest ~f,f+4,3~Tag (TA!) Marshall SSR, uf+3,4, Forest f,f, df+1, f+4,3,4 (75 pts)

f,f+2,3 is mid,high, knocks down and wallsplats. While f,f+2,3 is hit confirmable, it has much less range than b+2,2. 41 points of damage, and -17 on block with okay pushback, it does not jail, meaning that they can crouch under the second hit and WS launch Law, if they do not have a good 17 frame standing launcher, like if they are using Steve, for instance. The first hit is only -7 on block.


18 frames:

FC uf+4 is Law's backflip done from crouching. It can be Tagged off of and has all the same frame data as the standing UF+4 version.

WS+3 is mid, knocks down and wallsplats on normal and counter-hit, does 19 points, and is -8 on block. In my opinion, though, at 18 frames, you would have to be crazy to punish with WS+3.

20 frames:

uf,N,4 is his delayed hopkick, the "faster version" that only Law seems to have.

__________

In my opinion, there are big gaps in Law's punishers. df+2 is as generic a launch punish that you can get, but Laws have to rely on his df+2 for ALL of his standing launches. UF+4 flip kick is unrelyable, coming out at "18~20" frames.

Even Zafina and Yoshimitsu get their long range 16 frame launchers at -16 with Zafina's df+2 and Yoshimitsu's df+2,2, but at 16 frames and up, Law is still stuck doing his generic df+2.

I have to say, it was quite a shock switching back to Laws in Tag 2, coming from using Nina and Christie in Tekken 6. Both Nina and Christie get super reliable launchers at -16. Nina gets b+1+4 Reverse Ivory Cutter, which seems to reach them when it really shouldn't, and Christie's df+3+4 can even punish Paul's Phoenix Smasher.

What does Law get after a blocked Phoenix Smasher? If he is really on point, Law should be able to squeeze in a b+2,2 for 29 points and +4 frame advantage.

What is your opinion on Forest's punishers? Are there indeed big holes? Can you rely on df+2 for all of your standing launcher punishing?

Another complaint I have about Law's punishers is that most of his standing punishers until 15 frames are all highs, and therefore launch punishable if you mess up the punish.

Last edited by forest16 on Aug 15th, 2013 at 09:16

The DM
5th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 52
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
I think Tracking doesn't matter in punishers. I also dont think that df+2 has a good range not sure about tracking & high crush frames.

SSup stands for?

I think ws3 is not for punishment it is to mix it up with FC,df,d,df3 on wall for a safe wall splat.

uf,N,4 How bad is it on block?

In my opinion he lacks in long range punishment. He has 3+4 & b22 for longer range punishment but they are not consistent & there damage is so low that they fail to stop the opponent from abusing moves like Paul's deathfist , Hei ff+2 etc. He desperately needs a long range punisher with good damage if not a launcher.
I simply can't understand why his punishers are so punishable! ws1,2 the second hit is high even then being -17 on block is completely beyond comprehension on the other hand Bruce's WS 13f punisher (which is a launcher) is also a mid high but 2nd hit on block is only -11. kazuya's WS1,2 (which is also a launcher) both are mid & only -13 on block. Moreover they like each other so they get rage on 100dmg.

Last edited by The DM on Jan 31st, 2013 at 00:20

Signature Drunken Master
BigBlackBaller
Shihan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 118
From: New Zealand
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
WS 1,2 is HCable that's probably why it's so punishable. And for his long range punishment you can't really complain... At least he an punish deathfist and Heihache ff+2 unlike a lot of characters.

SSup i guess he means crouch cancel by pushing u~n which gives you a little sidestep. Not useful for punishing on law at least though.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
df+2 has good range for a generic df+2 when compared to alot of other characters' df+2s.

Yeah you can cancel a crouch with a sidestep into the background to punish a low move with a standing attack. You can also crouch cancel with a f,f or b,b dash.

I donno, I do not like WS+3. Really slow. At the range WS+3 hits, you would normally use WS+2, which does way more damage. I liked the old Tekken Tag 1 and Tekken 3 generic high hitting WS+3 that Law had. It did a ton of damage and was really fast. The old high WS+3 could easily punish a ducked throw or even a ducked jab. This mid 18 frame move is kinda useless to me...just use WS+2. If I know they can heavily punish my WS+2 for whatever reason, I might go with f,f+2,3 or f,f to crouch cancel and b+1,2 or f,f crouch cancel b+4,b to BT.

I think 3+4 is good at the wall, mid,mid, only -10, and really fast at 14 frames. It can catch them when they are not guarding for a wallsplat.

Not sure what uf,N,4 is on block, probably at least -13.

Meh, I guess Law players should be thankful that Law can get a 13 frame WS punish at all, despite its high risk. But at the same time, I agree with DM, Law being at -17 is pretty dumb, since it is already a high.

I really hate Forest Law's long range punishment. b+2,2, which does 29 points, is just shitty, I don't care, it is. When other characters like Zafina and Anna are launch punishing an attack on block, Forest is doing things like b+4,3 for a knockdown and okizeme.

It is just stupid. It's like Namco forgot to give the Laws a punisher. They saw that he had df+2, and they just said, "Well, he can launch with his df+2, so our work is done here." NO!! You fucked Law over, Namco!

People say that Wang and Asuka have terrible punishment, but they both get big launch punishers. Wang gets df+2,1~Tag at 16 frames, which does rediculous amounts of damage, and Asuka has her crazy long reaching f+2~Tag at 17 frames. So tell me, who has better punishers, Asuka and Wang, or Forest? I think Asuka and Wang...at least when it comes to launch punishing.
BigBlackBaller
Shihan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 118
From: New Zealand
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
People say that cause asuka had no good 12f in t6 and only gets 9 damage for -10. Also her ws punishment is complete ass. For regular punishment law is still pretty good and launching isn't too bad... At least he gets a 15f launcher unlike guys like bob steve and jun
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
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From: Canada
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XBL: ForestSkies
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Bob and Steve had 15f launchers in Tekken 6 and Tekken 5, respectively, until Namco came along and raped them, forever changing them.

Asuka launches at -15 with her df+2.

As for Junknown, they get a really reliable uf+4,3 at -16.


There are other issues with Law's punishing, too, like how 3,4's range is lacking in many standard -12 punishment situations, AND the fact that all of his punishers until 13 and 14 frames are all highs, so Law is therefore risking death if he misses the punish. Unless you do something to put yourself at negative frames on purpose like 1,1,2,3.

Namco also took out Law's 2,f+2,2 and f+2,f+2,2.
Nameless03
Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 530
From: Singapore
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
It's called a punish because you're not supposed to miss it. If you're losing because his punishments are high or launchable, then you're not punishing right.
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Ryoga.p.chan
2nd Dan
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
From: Spain
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Great post. We need to add and test this two:

Edited: It is not 10 frames, seems to be 15 frames, i was wrong.
u+2 is high, 22 damage,
I really think this is 10 frames, but i might be wrong, we need to test
don't know frames on hit or block, but this move seems really good, a good move that will surprise a lot of people. You get 22 damage instead of 25 from 1,1,2 or 2,2 but i think the advantage on hit of u+2 seems higher than 1,1,2 to me, i connect a lot of shit after this one move, not to mention that is a single fast move and usually people won't know what hit them and will be un prepared to block or guess right.
This move need further test, really.

12 frames:
uf+1,3 is high-low, 26 damage, -1 on hit, -12 on block, but i think the low is guaranteed if the high hits. This one has great range and i use it not only for long range punishment (when i'm not sure about 3,4) but for catch people doing korean backdash.


And i agree, you are not supposed to miss punish, but the fact is that sometimes it do happen because frames are tight and we may miss the link, and i would like to be somewhat safe when that happens, but it the opponent chooses to duck, we are fucked.

Our punishers are really bad, and our launch punishers are... df+2 and that's all.
I never use uf+4 for a punisher, never, because if you try to do uf+4 and it happens that you do UF+4 instead (a mistake in the heat of the battle) you are way too fucked up, and i hate that.

Last edited by Ryoga.p.chan on Feb 1st, 2013 at 09:23

Signature Soy un moucho y estoy loco...
The DM
5th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 52
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Hi forest
2,2 doesn't do 25 damage it does 20.
http://rbnorway.org/forest-ttt2-frames/

Last edited by The DM on Feb 1st, 2013 at 01:01

The DM
5th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 52
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
BigBlackBaller

Yes that can be the reason but even then the risk & reward ratio is not balanced here He was not Hit confirming a launcher. He does have a long range punisher but just look at the damage & m also doubtful about its consistency (bcz I just started playing Forest seriously so not sure) on deathfist & Hei ff2 bcoz sometimes the pushback of these moves is crazy. Iíve tested 3+4 against Hei ff2 & I can confirm that its ďinconsistentĒ I forgot to check b22 though.

forest16

My crouch cancel method is just hold forward+attack from crouching position. For example Lei Back Turned 4,3 then d+1, F+1 or F~1.

Yes thats y I said that ws3 isnít for punishing it can only be used for safe FC Wallsplat Mixup. Nobody is going to punish with 18f ws3 instead of 15f ws2 launcher. The speed difference between ws3 & ws2 is not that big but the risk difference btw them is definitely huge & on the wall they both are going to do the same thing ďW!Ē. WS2 means launch or get launched whereas ws3 is a completely safe mid so it can be a great FC Mixup option on the wall. All the moves you've mentioned are little to much risky & hard to do for me.

Yes 3+4 is good but isnít CH 123 a better option? Since it is just 10f, easily HC able, very hard to interrupt, last hit mid & completely safe on block. Bcz this move is so fast there are good chances to get a CH & my small experience shows that you r going to get it very often.

Yes despite the risk itís a solid non launching 13f ws punisher probably one of the best in the game.

Yeah 16f long range duckable punisher, in case u mess up, with just 29 damage what is it if it isnít a joke? For long range punisher with solid damage Forest is only left with 20f ff3. But to do that you need good reflexes and a stupid opponent who whiffs such a big move on this long range. Asukaís punishment is I think really weak but Wangís punishment is good for long range punishment & whiffs he has 15f f+2,2 which does 40 damage 2nd hit is a mid & just -11 on block. But without a doubt Law is a better tier than that of these two.

BigBlackBaller

Bobís 12f f+2,3 is extremely reliable punisher with just 1 damage less than Forest & has hell of range. His 10f punisher has the longest range in the game. He launches at 14f from crouch & he has good tools which make you duck cd4,1+2 is one of them which does 54 damage. For 16f, long range & whiff uf+1+2, 1+2 with 53 damage. Since its notation is uf so if they whiff something & for some reason you were crouching u can do it right from there. Steveís punishment is really weak but his 14f df+1+2 is very reliable it always punishes Hei ff2 & wall splats from a mile away also it is a great wall carry option.

Nameless03

I agree we are supposed to punish it correctly but when our character has this poor range whiffing will not be uncommon. Like I tested reliability of 3+4 against Hei ff2 sometimes it worked but sometimes his first kick whiffed due to pushback & by the time 2nd kick hit Hei had recovered. 3,4 range is also questionable So in other words it means that weíll always have to first see that character is in range or not then punish accordingly sorry at least I canít do that.

Iíve tested & found that when u input a command & hold forward it increases its range a little bit(atleast jabs range) if there is not any move with that input but we canít do this with Law because if u try to punish a -11f move with f+4,3 it will become 13f same goes with f+3,4 it becomes 15f u get a bit more damage though. Lawís punishment has been deliberately kept weak rather its been weakend more otherwise why would u take away his 2,f+2,2?

Now donít get me wrong m not saying he is a weak character. Two top players, Helpme & 2CH, kept him in A category in the tier list & I completely agree to them I m just pointing out his weaknesses in punishment.

Ryoga.p.chan

Punishing with uf1,3 sounds a good idea & if I remember correctly I think you are right it has good range and yes both hits are guaranteed if uf1 hits forest16 has also mentioned this in his Ws punishers list.
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forest16
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
I tested u+2 and u+2 fails to punish Forest's f,f+4,3 which is -14, but it does punish Forest's f,f+3, which is -15. u+2 is 15 frames...really bad, dude.

f,f+2 is too slow VS Deathfist, it is 17 frames at its fastest. b+2,2 should reach, I think...it had better, since you are risking getting launched yet again with the second hit being a high.

Holding forward is not a crouch cancel, sorry bud.

Frankly I kinda hate his new WS+3...18 frames is so seeable and slow. The move seems linear, too.

You answered your own question: 1,2,3 wallsplats on CH only, whereas 3+4 will wallsplat if they are just trying to move around and are not pressing anything.

I think Nina has the best 13f WS punish in the game, hands down, with her WS+1,1+2. -11 on block, knockdown/wallsplat, amazing range, wallbreaks. Law's WS+1,2 not wallsplatting is inferior to Nina's WS+1,1+2.

In the open stage tho, Law gets much better okizeme from WS+1,2. You get a free dash to db+4, and if they try to get up, you can sometimes get a b+2,3,4~Tag on their back for a mega damage Tag FUFT combo.

b+2,2 is -9 on block, so if they are spacing you out, you can toss it out there. 3+4 is faster than b+2,2, I use 3+4 in the same way. 3+4 knocks them down and is 2 frames faster, but is punishable by jabs at -10. 3+4 does have some crush, methinks. f,f+2,3 is good at range too since it is completely safe if you hit confirm it.

I personally always use 1,1,2, but 1,1,2 does sometimes miss due to range. Maybe I should use uf+1,3

Wall of text responded to by another wall of text

And yeah, I fixed the damage on 2,2, BT.

Last edited by forest16 on Feb 1st, 2013 at 12:52

Ryoga.p.chan
2nd Dan
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Posts: 24
From: Spain
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks forest, your post's here and in the Enter the Combos section are being really useful to me.
Signature Soy un moucho y estoy loco...
forest16
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Ryoga.p.chan
Thanks forest, your post's here and in the Enter the Combos section are being really useful to me.
I aim to please.

Maybe we can get more character-specific, now that we have the basic punishers.

Here is one: df+2 can not punish the last hit of Kazuya's uf+4,4,4,4, and, since it is -17 on block and not -18, UF+4 will not punish it either! Forest has to use b+4,3! Even f+3,4 has trouble reaching Kazuya for a punish! I thought that maybe f,df+2 might reach, since holding forward to close the distance a bit before the df+2 can increase the range of the df+2, but that fails to reach too. Kazuya brings his leg back in, and, with the pushback, the df+2 whiffs, giving Kazuya an opportunity for a launch punish.

I bet there are many other situations where most, if not all of the rest of the cast, can launch punish, but Laws can not. I am trying to think of another character that can not launch punish the last hit of Kazuya's uf+4,4,4,4. Lee gets uf+4, Lee's knee reaches. Hmm...pretty sure the only other character in the entire game that can not launch punish Kazuya's uf+4,4,4,4 is Steve Fox. Bob gets his uf+3 at 17 frames. Oh, True Ogre, or "Ogre," can not launch it, I think.

But there you have it, Laws are amongst the worst punishers in the entire game, along with Steve and "Ogre."

Last edited by forest16 on Feb 1st, 2013 at 13:36

BigBlackBaller
Shihan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 118
From: New Zealand
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
That's a pretty ridiculous case anyway though... people should be low parrying before then anyway because if it's getting blocked there is no reason to continue the string... and they are definitely not amongst the worst punishers. He can launch plenty of things that bob can't that are much more common and usable (anything -15 is much more usable against bob/steve than the rest of the cast) than kaz's uf+4,4,4,4. Anyway you might be able to get ff+4,3 if you are quick enough.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
You have to take mindgames and mixups into account. Alot of Kazuyas just do uf+4,4 and do not finish the string, then, later on, they do finish the string. Kinda scrubby mixup, but meh.

Yeah, pretty crappy punisher at -17.

Here is another scenario: you block an attack that you know is -18 on block. Are you going to go for UF+4~Tag? How about after you block a -19 attack?


I am a REALLY old school Law player, and I have the old Tekken 3 standing 3,4 timing engraved into my brain. I always think I should punish -12 by pressing 3, getting up, opening the fridge, making a sandwitch, eating the sandwitch, coming back, and then pressing the 4.

The timing on Law's standing 3,4 is really different now. You NEED TO press it as if it is 3~4, a really fast input. Any delay on the 4 and you are probably only going to do standing 3, no 4. It is something that I need to adjust to.

I think, back in Tekken 3, you could even hit confirm the second hit of standing 3,4, it was that lax in its timing.

Last edited by forest16 on Feb 2nd, 2013 at 23:00

The DM
5th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 52
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Holding forward is not a crouch cancel?? But it works for me you can check the above mentioned combo yourself.

ofcourse there is a difference of NH & CH btw these moves but you'll probably never use 3+4 when death is just 10f punishment away. Both moves have their own use i think 3+4 is his best move/punisher which has great range, ok damage, wallsplats on NH & only jab punishable on block.

oh i didn't know that Law doesn't w! with ws12 ok its one of the better ones

3+4 crushes??? what? highs, lows or mids?

yeah you should low parry it on the first low but if you don't then ff+4,3 is the only possible launch punishment option but even for that you need to be spot on. Other than punishers you can try ff+3+4, db+44 combo, or simple 1+3_2+4 throws these might work bcoz they would be expecting some punishment not throws. BTW, Though it doesn't look like that, i think we should check that Kaz uf4 string is interuptable or not? i mean his sweaps. if FC+2,3 can interrupt then....

12 frame 3,4 tekken3 launcher in TTT2 would be great dude. Law is not Kaz, Bruce, AK or Jinpachi etc but he is definitely an average punisher atleast if not good.

Last edited by The DM on Feb 5th, 2013 at 02:42

Signature Drunken Master
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
DM, you did not even know what a crouch cancel was until I told you.
Nameless03
Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 530
From: Singapore
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Holding f to crouch cancel only works after generic crouch jab.
Signature (+Loss)Mercury
The DM
5th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 52
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by forest16
DM, you did not even know what a crouch cancel was until I told you.


I have no idea how u assumed this. This is right that i didn't know ff & bb method to CC (thanks u told me) but that doesn't mean at all that i didn't even know what a CC was. its not really important but just as a proof go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-qo4Lcdok where Aris talks about CC (from 18:34 to 18:45) in his AK tutorial which was well before you started this thread & even i knew this a long before his tutorial. I don't use CC except for that particular combo & that too with holding f method.

and did u read that last post? Nameless agrees to me that it works for the Lei combo i was talking about.

Last edited by The DM on Feb 5th, 2013 at 23:57

Signature Drunken Master
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Good info, Nameless03

Forest's b+3+4 can not be launch punished by Laws, unless Law's back is against the wall! df+2 misses, and since UF+4 is 18 frames, yeah, no launch. Laws have to use f+3,4 after blocking b+3+4, which is alot like Lili's b+1+2 in that it can crush mids.

Unlike Lili's b+1+2, though, Laws' b+3+4 does not do anything special on CH, it just knocks them down like on regular hit.

Law b+3+4 is 29 frames and -16 on block.


I often think that I need to punish with 3,4 by doing 3~3,4 in order to make sure the first hit comes out ASAP to get that perfect 12 frame startup. I have not been getting 3,3, that useless (for punishing) -14 string when I have been doing 3~3,4. Seems good.


VS Nina FDFT getting up 4, Forest f+3,4 is getting blocked, but b+4,3 is hitting for me. So weird...f+3 is supposed to be 14 frames...first post has been edited, looks like Law's f+3 is no longer 14 frames!!

I tested f+3 on Lili's 3,1, which is definitely -14 on block, http://rbnorway.org/lili-ttt2-frames/ and it fails to punish it!

VS Nina FUFT getting up 4, 3,4 whiffs, and f+3 gets blocked. But f+2,N+2 BT hits for 23 points.

OK, I tried f+3,4 VS Hwoarang's b+3, which is -15, http://rbnorway.org/hwoarang-ttt2-frames/ and f+3,4 does punsh it. f+3,4 is now a 15 frame punisher in Tag 2!?! df+2 easily punishes Hwoarang's b+3, too.

Last edited by forest16 on Feb 7th, 2013 at 09:04

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