Anti-Chreddy guide

Page Splits <123>
Share This Topic
Share
Subscribe/Jump Subscribe This Topic
< >
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by LuizWsp
With so many characters full of safe launchers in this game, and so many character with those generic hopkicks that are lightning quick (I watched Saint vs JDCR and Saint didnt punish any of the 4 hopkicks Armor King made), capos are the ones that can midlessly do moves cause they dont have to bother about punishment? Youre joking right?
didnt he admit to joking? like right there, in the video at 27s mark?

Originally posted by LuizWsp
How can you punish Kazuya's ff3? Or Nina uf4? Or Lars uf4? Or Ogre's u1+2? Or Bobs bb4? Or how can you punish all those grab launchers? Maybe you can duck them on reaction, cause you can see 9 frames, but not us mortals. Or how can you punish EWGF or cd3 from Devil jin? Those are the moves you can throw out randomly with no worries of beeing punished, you know why? Cause they actually can't be punished, even if the opponent is a True Tekken God.
punishing is something that is often associated in tekken with a situation where opponent cannot block an attack. for example if someone throws out electric and you crouch under it you have plenty of time to punish it with a launcher. How do you punish kazuyas ff3 that is -3 on block. You may sidestep and sidewalk it and whiff punish. Unfortunately in block -3 is just not enough for guaranteed damage on any character that i know of.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Capos are braindead characters? You have to pick your spots, be creative to make a new transition to confuse your opponent, work on set-ups to get to your stances, read your opponent for some evading moves or CH. What do Mishimas have to think about? "Should I try a positive-on-block launcher now, or a little later?" LOL

More than that, you have to memorize moves for every situation. Not like a Mishima:
he's gonna tag in? Positive-on-block launcher.
He's gonna ss? Positive-on-block launcher.
He's turling? Positive-on-block launcher.
He's coming in my direction? Positive-on-block launcher.
His back is to the wall? Positive-on-block launcher or w! grab (wow, finally an option)
He's ducking a lot? Safe-on-block-mid launcher
He's in the ground? Safe-on-block-mid launcher

Wow, really tricky flowchart there.
clearly at least the character attracts some braindead players. If you may I could attempt to use your logic to use this as proof that as two out of two capo players responding to this video failing to write anything that could be considered "not braindead", every capo players must be braindead? Seems kind of bad logic when you think about it.
And dont get your panties in the bunch, this is also false. Not everything CaCarmen said was braindead.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
my point is, you're not bringing anything new here (except that uf3 is not a mix up ), it just looks like you care too much that someguy who doesnt study frames like you do wins more than you.
so you are saying there is another anti capo strategy video somewhere with the same points excluding segment regarding uf3? link please.

You should also understand that as hostile as my responses may appear, they only highlight your arguments in a silly way. Because you were being hostile, had you played nice this wouldnt have had to happen.

If you must stay angry and vent it out, im here for you. I'll accept all your pented up frustration and do not mind being the target of your hostility. And now we can get back to flaws of the video and how to fix them. Its unreasonable to expect anyone to make a new video, but if we were to use our time less emotionally perhaps we could get enough data to make a new video with more and more accurate information. Then if we hope really hard maybe someone compiles it into a video. Even if not, there will be lot of information packed into single location.

It is understandable that as a capo player who uses rlx mixups it might not be in your best interest to contribute, but as the high level capo players who are far past rlx mixups might want to prove that they are not braindead, as opposed to how it now seems.

Lian you might want to edit the web threatre thread to contain link to this thread. unfortunately someone who had a detailed response regarding why some moves are a bad idea and that after ws13 and b33 some characters can get a float juggle with i14 or faster move that hits rlx. like kaz b24 or lee/violets d4something into bound.
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#22 “Quote” Edit Post
Vittujee. I would answer you, but as you clearly didnt understand anything I said, it would be redundant.

When I asked "How can you punish Kazuya's ff3?" how did you not ge that it was retorical? OMG.

None of your points make any sense. At All. I'll assume you're trolling and move on. LOL
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#23 “Quote” Edit Post
I guess I have sometime so I'll keep this 'debate' going. Getting kind of tiring since none of us will ever have a chance to play each other in real life...

Originally posted by vittujee 28 out of 33, thats 85% success rate in a situation that you are forced to attempt to block low or standing that you cannot back away from is pretty tight. Lucky


Im always fascinated by this type of fallacy, how can such type ever exist. Ahem.
So you are saying that because someone has the knowledge how to do something and because he also has done the very same thing succesfully in the past in really impressive successrate, it means he can never fail at it. Because otherwise it is indication of "just guessing it right". I think theres certain level of beauty and elegance in this assumption that can only be reached in situations where you are so wrong that its not even funny but shocking. Perhaps this was intended to be a joke, a very high level joke that is not only funny, but beautiful in its perfect rejection of reason.

to demonstrate that it might be possible to visually confirm and block the extension correctly, it has to be done in an actual match or something as silly. Sorry it doesnt work that way. It has been demonstrated that it might be possible for some people to block the extensions on reaction and that other people should look into it to test if it is true. Crying about how your feelings tell you that its wrong is noted and rejected.


The problem is he is failing at getting it 100% in practice mode, when only focusing on one move in particular. Had he mixed it up with other strings and been able to get a decent success rate then I can see it as being reliably blockable by sight. I don't always block Dragon Tail or Baek's sweep in match, but in practice mode when I'm only looking to distinguish between two moves I sure can get it 100%.

There's another very big problem with the testing, its assuming that uf+3,3 and uf+3,3+4 are the only two possible options, which is not true. uf+3~d into RLX is commonly used in matches, as is uf+3 by itself. In fact, at higher level matches you see all of these options used pretty much equally. (I even just linked a match a few posts above where the player finished the string less than half the time over a three match set. It would be silly for anyone, even weaker players, to keep going between the mid and the low extension since both options stop the Capo player's momentum entirely on block.) Do you think you'd be able to see the difference between the uf+3 mixup, hit the Capo player if they don't do the mixup (and go into RLX) in time to beat out a RLX move AND be able to do a successful mid/low mixup if you block just the first part of uf+3 any reasonable percentage of the time in match?

Originally posted by vittujee are you suggesting that players should not prepare how to defend against cheese because opponent will not use cheese when you know how to defend against it? You two are not really making a strong case for not being braindead.


Uhm, when did I say that again? Its pretty much obvious you should know how to play defense properly in Tekken. In fact a few posts above I mention that bad Capos fare poorly in any of the major scenes (both in Asia and North America, both in arcade and on console) that I've been part of. That's because we're at least good enough that we don't get hit by gimmicks done by weak players. I thought that sort of thing was taken for granted globally, but I guess not.

Originally posted by vittujee There exists braindead things you can do if your opponent does not know how to deal with it. This will hold true even at high level is someone is high level and does not know how to deal with capo's. And because the braindead things require fast reactions and sometimes complicated inputs theres a possibility of misinput or being late that still makes capo's do them. Perhaps not at the highest level, but not everyone who plays tekken plays at the highest level.

I cannot understand that anyone who actually plays capos would claim this to be false. Based on your usual replies I would imagine response being something like "but other characters!", but no im sorry that will be rejected. This is about anticapo strats, not "why capo's braindeadtraps are less braindead than mixing up ewgf with ewgf because its a true mixup apparently".


Not even sure what you're getting at here buddy. I don't think I alluded to other characters in any post I wrote and if you still have that assumption, I suggest you reread what I've written in the above posts a little bit more carefully. I just feel calling a character 'braindead' because some players, who are obviously a lot less skilled with basic character defence than any of the good players I've played against, encounter problems with said characters is a little unfair. I used to have problems with certain characters as well, but instead of calling them and the people who used them 'braindead', I put work into finding ways around those characters (without the help of Youtube tutorials mind you) and have got to the point where I can say I have no matchup issues with any of the original T6 cast (I still haven't put the time to learn ways around some of the TT2 characters, but I digress).

The rest of your post is pretty much incoherent. I agree that issues with the video should be highlighted, which is why I immediately mentioned that you can't hit RLX without thinking about which move you're using (actually, that seems more braindead than the Capo player going into RLX, hmm). Certain RLX hitting mids can be crushed with RLX 4~3 (AK's uf+4, Jin's b+2,1, Julia's df+1, etc.) and certain short range moves that normally hit RLX (Alisa's uf+4, Law's hopkicks, AK's ws+4) can be avoided with RLX f+3+4 or RLX 3+4,3. On top of that certain moves hit RLX for so little damage, and on top of that, if I know you're going to use a low damage low to hit me in RLX, I can do RLX f+3+4 or RLX 3+4 to put myself airborne and further reduce the damage from 100% to 60%. The video kind of glosses over ALL of that and assumes Capos have no options in RLX (basically assuming every transition into RLX is b+3,3, which should not even be called a transition as I pointed out a few posts above). It also assumes the Capo player is not paying attention to which moves the opponent is using to hit RLX, which is a dangerous assumption to make (though I guess LianX feels differently, since he often remarks Capo players "not smart enough" in his vid). I've won so many matches by taking advantage of my opponent's tendencies and causing them to whiff when they hit me in RLX. Something I'd be happy to show you if I ever got a chance to play either of you in real life.

Also for all this talk about backdashing RLX, I dare you to successfully backstep RLX f+3+4. Even in the video, where it talks about backdashing RLX mixups, he just sidesteps (without backstepping at all, check 13:30) to avoid RLX f+3+4. Which is lol, pretty silly. (For the record, I'm referring to transitions that leave the opponent close, which obviously ss+3 on hit doesn't do. But do you really need a video to tell you that that move pushes back? Anyone getting hit by the move for the first time can obviously see that... it seems like someone is thinking very little of thier audience.)

Finally, for the record, I still have yet to meet anyone who can backdash RLX4~3 when I use HSPb+3 in match. Maybe because I set it up at close range (after say, blocking something -10 to -12, and instead of punishing with 1,2, running in, doing f+1+2 into HSP and doing a quick HSP b+3 for a mixup), on top of that to even get the backdash to come out you need to get the timing down very well (obviously +7 of hit stun is a hard position to freely backdash or move around from). Not to mention I mix up with RLX f+3+4 (which hits people out of backstep), RLX f+1+2 into HSP moves to further pressure opponents, or even just getting up from RLX and doing a mid/low/forward throw mixup (since the opponent is thinking about defense, I can pressure them for free). Other good Capos do the same.
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#24 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
I guess I have sometime so I'll keep this 'debate' going. Getting kind of tiring since none of us will ever have a chance to play each other in real life...
i wonder if you mean that we should meet up and hangout and have a good time playing tekkunz or you mean in the way of i'll beat you into silence.


I am sorry I called you and your character braindead. I realize now I should have not used plural, as I only meant to single one of you out at the time.

I agree that if someone was to practice guarding against uf3 extensions they should include to have practice dummy also doing uf3~rlx into 4 as well as uf3 into b14,3+4. I have been testing this and it seems that if I try to block the low extension on reaction I waste too much time to be able to attack opponent without b1 beating my options. Meaning that capo can still keep up his offense even if hes at -10 after uf3, only way to counter that is a hard read, just pushing buttons after blocking uf3 which is really quite dangerous. Also if one doesnt train a reaction to uf3~rlx, you'll be late to stop the mixup. doing iws4 with kazuya seems to beat all options that I have tried from uf3d rlx and floats 4~3 into a juggle.

Theres also another interesting thing that players who are used to +8's being something they can attack from, as b2 will sidestep a lot of things and db1+2 will backsway evade a lot of things. A player should really recheck their frame options against capo's, if they have a move that covers both options. Also it seems that capo sidestep is bad, meaning that one doenst need to worry about his rightside tracking so much. Both db1+2 and b2 can easily be backdashed from frame advantage, but at walls it could be quite problematic. Even at -8 kazuya can backdash from db1+2 and b2 as long as it was not at range 0. at neutral or advantage frames both can be sidewalked to either direction, but I would imagine capo's have some tools against sidewalk at neutral and perhaps even at disadvantage.

The speed of evasion on these moves coupled with them being -6 make it really difficult if not impossible for some characters to push frames safely, because they would need a move that is i15 or so that tracks left and has good reach, as theres a possibility of opponent using b2 or db1+2 right after having one of them blocked. Only character I could think of who can beat capo at -6 trying b2,db1+2,b1 or jab is marduk and his f1+2,d4 and df1+2. With yoshi u3+4, db33, 12, nss 12, nss 21 will beat those options.
Rather remarkable moves they are, db1+2 and b2. I had to go through a few characters just to find someone with options to beat the 4 options.

at walls capo's can get d23 after b2, not sure if they can get a bound always, but d23 puts them in relax ready to mix shit up. at certain angles they can get b2 df4 !W 1+2+5 at least, so the danger from pushing buttons with your back to the wall even at +8 range 0 is very high if the move you're doing doesnt cover b2.

I'll study capo's some more later, i'll report findings here.

edit:
Also for all this talk about backdashing RLX, I dare you to successfully backstep RLX f+3+4
rlx f3+4 sure is interesting. if you block it from range 0 its -13 with high crush/evasion, if you manage to backdash quite a bit it ends up -4. its possible it has even more active frames and with long enough backdash it could be even less than -4. Although I tested from getting hit by HSP b3 then rlx f3+4, I had no problems backdashing it without getting hit by it. Naturally being at -4 at range 0 against a capo is a tough situation if you dont have anything to push frames that would cover b2 and db1+2, which means that you have to take risks to stop them from going into stances and mixing you up.

Finally, for the record, I still have yet to meet anyone who can backdash RLX4~3 when I use HSPb+3 in match
lili cant do, dont know if someone else has better backdash than her. jumping back is still an option to avoid low sweep and punish.

Last edited by vittujee on Dec 18th, 2013 at 09:21

CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
i wonder if you mean that we should meet up and hangout and have a good time playing tekkunz or you mean in the way of i'll beat you into silence.


I mean, its just that sometimes it becomes frustrating to talk about Tekken online since we each have our own perspectives on the game, but a lot of errors get made in communication and since we don't get to even play each other, it becomes hard to prove things. So it just leads to a lot of unwanted frustration.

Originally posted by vittujee
I agree that if someone was to practice guarding against uf3 extensions they should include to have practice dummy also doing uf3~rlx into 4 as well as uf3 into b14,3+4. I have been testing this and it seems that if I try to block the low extension on reaction I waste too much time to be able to attack opponent without b1 beating my options. Meaning that capo can still keep up his offense even if hes at -10 after uf3, only way to counter that is a hard read, just pushing buttons after blocking uf3 which is really quite dangerous. Also if one doesnt train a reaction to uf3~rlx, you'll be late to stop the mixup. doing iws4 with kazuya seems to beat all options that I have tried from uf3d rlx and floats 4~3 into a juggle.


I don't think anyone would use uf+3 into b+1. As good as uf+3 is its far too minus, even with all of the added 'hesitation' you get from the opponent for a CH to work. A better mixup I think is:
uf+3,3
uf+3,3+4
uf+3~d RLX 4~3 or RLX4
uf+3 (nothing) throw (forward throw or Rodeo)

If someone is committed to playing defense after uf+3 they (in my experience) tend to want to backdash (which is hard since uf+3, despite its disadvantage, forces crouch) or sidestep, and forward throw covers both of those options. People usually don't press buttons (if they did they'll usually beat df+2_b+1, or even faster CH moves like 1+2,3). Actually, I've even done Rodeo after uf+3 attempts and had it work in match many times, but I feel it could in theory be backstepped due to the disadvantage on uf+3. However to have someone backstep it in match is another thing. uf+3 into db+3 mixups or another uf+3 also work well.

For the record I use pretty much all the uf+3 options equally, though I tend to use the RLX transition and not finishing the string a little more so people become a little bit more scared of the extensions. That's something I learned from watching Misty play way way back in BR.

Originally posted by vittujee
Theres also another interesting thing that players who are used to +8's being something they can attack from, as b2 will sidestep a lot of things and db1+2 will backsway evade a lot of things. A player should really recheck their frame options against capo's, if they have a move that covers both options. Also it seems that capo sidestep is bad, meaning that one doenst need to worry about his rightside tracking so much. Both db1+2 and b2 can easily be backdashed from frame advantage, but at walls it could be quite problematic. Even at -8 kazuya can backdash from db1+2 and b2 as long as it was not at range 0. at neutral or advantage frames both can be sidewalked to either direction, but I would imagine capo's have some tools against sidewalk at neutral and perhaps even at disadvantage.

The speed of evasion on these moves coupled with them being -6 make it really difficult if not impossible for some characters to push frames safely, because they would need a move that is i15 or so that tracks left and has good reach, as theres a possibility of opponent using b2 or db1+2 right after having one of them blocked. Only character I could think of who can beat capo at -6 trying b2,db1+2,b1 or jab is marduk and his f1+2,d4 and df1+2. With yoshi u3+4, db33, 12, nss 12, nss 21 will beat those options.
Rather remarkable moves they are, db1+2 and b2. I had to go through a few characters just to find someone with options to beat the 4 options.


There are actually three moves that you're thinking of, b+2 (which is in its own catagory since its the only move that auto sidesteps for Capos) and db+1+2 and db+3+4 (the two auto sway back moves). Let's talk about the latter two first.

db+1+2 and db+3+4 work the same way, so you can use them pretty much interchangably. If a move which leaves the Capo at super close range with anything up to around -7, these moves can evade pretty much all highs and most normal range mids. As with all evasive moves they become much more effective as distance increases. Obviously a lot of this depends on which move is being thrown out (for example, if my opponent is throwing out an i13 df+1, I'm sure I could use db+1+2 or db+3+4 to sway away at even -10, whereas at -8 it can evade i13 moves but not i10 jabs, etc.) They're very good moves, and db+3+4~d is particularly good since its not very punishable due to putting the Capo player in RLX (some players even forget about the RLX transition and do a high by accident), but I don't use them very much (and I don't see them used in high level matches very much either) because most Capo moves in general

1) push back, meaning that most people aren't going to rush in and that if they did I could use better options, such as Rodeo throw them coming in, b+3 to fish for a CH or even a deep sidestep into ss+3+4 or backdash and look to whiff punish with df+3+4 etc to catch them.
2) have extensions (like the aforementioned RLX2) that make it hard for the opponent to want to continue attacking even when they have frame advantage.

And either of these options can be whiff punished easily (though maybe db+3+4~d can't be whiff punished, who knows). But there might be players who like using them. Its not any different from Lars or Dragunov players using thier sway back moves (which are as good, if not better since they suit those characters better).

b+2 on the other hand is a lot more usable. Everyone knows about it so I won't go into detail but in general it works at up to and around the same frames as the above moves and evades most things that aren't specifically tracking it. You can do a slight forward motion to realign with the Capo players but that's risky, I always just sidewalk and whiff punish it. Its super good but I think Feng's uf+2 is better to be honest. (Once again, at higher levels you see b+2 used less and less, and when it is used its more when the opponent is attacking then inside of a flowchart).

Originally posted by vittujee
at walls capo's can get d23 after b2, not sure if they can get a bound always, but d23 puts them in relax ready to mix shit up. at certain angles they can get b2 df4 !W 1+2+5 at least, so the danger from pushing buttons with your back to the wall even at +8 range 0 is very high if the move you're doing doesnt cover b2.


b+2 at the wall guarantees a b+3+4, d+2(,3) (the first part alone spikes for a standing mixup) or f+3+4 (which can be used to setup a b+3+4 if they don't tech or a mixup if they do), but unfortunetly those can be tag crashed in this silly game as none of them are technically a combo. The only (worth talking about) NCs are (copied from my notes):
d+4,3
d+3
db+2,3
There might be others but there aren't many. Most players if they have the option will always tag crash since b+2 leaves the opponent in FUFA position without the option to tech roll. In BR this was super good, and arguably better than a W!, but in TT2 being able to W! is like, a million times better than oki is. (its why I don't like this game very much)

I think you messed up the notation on your juggle there? df+4 is the standing low kick.

Originally posted by vittujee
edit:
rlx f3+4 sure is interesting. if you block it from range 0 its -13 with high crush/evasion, if you manage to backdash quite a bit it ends up -4. its possible it has even more active frames and with long enough backdash it could be even less than -4. Although I tested from getting hit by HSP b3 then rlx f3+4, I had no problems backdashing it without getting hit by it. Naturally being at -4 at range 0 against a capo is a tough situation if you dont have anything to push frames that would cover b2 and db1+2, which means that you have to take risks to stop them from going into stances and mixing you up.


I guess I'll test this again but RLX f+3+4 is pretty much meant to catch backdashes. Still, even if it gets blocked its 'pretty much' safe and it gives me a good read on what you like to do after getting hit by a RLX move (so next time I can be very sure of what action to take) with minimal risk. Also if you jump away from RLX it will juggle for a combo with b+3,3. Anyway on block (again copied from my notes):
Seems punishment at safe at max range
At close range will high crush i10 jabs, but not i11 magic 4s

Originally posted by vittujee
jumping back is still an option to avoid low sweep and punish.


After HSP b+3, RLX 2 catches jumps and beats a lot of options (like most RLX moves it high crushes during its animation). Also, even if you jump away from my RLX 4~3, so what? The most you'll 'punish' me with realistically from that range is a long range mid (like Heihachi's ff+2), which since I'm in HSP (and therefore airborne) will only do 60% damage and probably won't be able to follow up with a juggle (much less a bound juggle). If you come in to do a short range attack to hit me I have a million options from HSP and RLX to deal with that. There's a reason why at max range you see pro players whiff RLX 4~3 and do HSP 4 as the opponent comes in, and it works.

Anyway, feel free to post up anything you find but pretty much anything you guys find me and the other players on this forum have known about and tested like, for the last five or so years. This character pretty much hasn't changed that much from BR so most of that knowledge still applies to this game. But we're all willing to learn new things.

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:24

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#26 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
I don't think anyone would use uf+3 into b+1. As good as uf+3 is its far too minus, even with all of the added 'hesitation' you get from the opponent for a CH to work.
i dont play capo, I am not familiar with all their tools, but its hard for me to imagine for better rewarding move if one is fishing for ch.

its -10, it is not far too much minus if opponent is trying to block low extension on reaction. By the time its certain that no extension is coming its too late to interrupt by attacking and unlikely to have enough time to sidestep b1, but it would depend on players reaction speed and characters sidestep speed. Im guessing safer options than b1 are possible, but against an opponent that doesnt know to sidestep around it would be a good gamble. And the damage possibility is remarkable.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
A better mixup I think is:
uf+3,3
uf+3,3+4
uf+3~d RLX 4~3 or RLX4
uf+3 (nothing) throw (forward throw or Rodeo)
uf3~d and any type of attacking can be interrupted on reaction if one is looking for it. even more likely if they are trying to block the low on reaction as the animations are similar and you have experience enough to know when the low should have connected/blocked. Throw is safer against someone who reads uf3~nothing and fishes for ch, but against someone whos willing to commit with launcher (its already insanely risky to attack from that situation so why not) you'll get launched. Im not familiar on how good oki you can gain from normal throws or rodeo.


There are actually three moves that you're thinking of, b+2 (which is in its own catagory since its the only move that auto sidesteps for Capos) and db+1+2 and db+3+4 (the two auto sway back moves). Let's talk about the latter two first.

db+1+2 and db+3+4 work the same way, so you can use them pretty much interchangably. If a move which leaves the Capo at super close range with anything up to around -7
db3+4 seems safer at whiff, punishing db3+4b can be limited at such range, especially as theres danger of extensions that can deal 50 dmg. if you ch db3+4 into hps can you still juggle? also can you juggle if it ch's but both hits of db3+4 connects?

db3+4 can be b'd into hsp that creates distance, db3+4d goes to rlx, cant be i14 floated on block, but can be dealt with either generic d4 to stop mixup or if character has something better. db3+4 on itself is -10 on block and has extensions 43, both high and if 4 hits on ch 3 is guaranteed and does 48 dmg. also extensions surprisingly jail and are safe on block. marduks 1d2 is only exception to this that I know of.

Two options, after blocking db3+4 crouch and launch punish extensions, use ws4 or similar tool to interrupt rlx and use 1+2+5 if they went to hsp. (1+2+5 can be used from crouch). or character specific tool. By doing this the -10 on block can easily by +5 and if capo does db3+4 on block and immediately after goes for b1 or just attacks in general it will be too late to interrupt their attacks and possibly too late to move, depending on player reaction speed and character movespeed.

Luckily as it seems to end in range 0 even from shallow hit, some characters may have tools to cover multiple options. especially since its -10 now, b2 and db1+2 will less effective. Kaz can do df32 that floats hsp and hits rlx. loses only to extensions.

b+2 at the wall guarantees a b+3+4, d+2(,3) (the first part alone spikes for a standing mixup) or f+3+4 (which can be used to setup a b+3+4 if they don't tech or a mixup if they do), but unfortunetly those can be tag crashed in this silly game as none of them are technically a combo. The only (worth talking about) NCs are (copied from my notes):
d+4,3
d+3
db+2,3
at wall b+2 db23 can be tagbuffered for free tag and still does 50 dmg or d23 also does 50dmg and spikes with entering rlx for mixups all from a mid that is safe on block and can be used even at -8. honestly this seems fucking terrifying for character that doesnt have fast move that covers possibility of db1+2 and b2.

I think you messed up the notation on your juggle there? df+4 is the standing low kick.
it is correct. if something else is better for it, I did not have the time to come up with it. b2 df4 will float opponent onto wall from certain angles. with very short time i spent on testing it, sometimes df4 will hit as groundhit and not float, sometimes df4 !W and 1+2+5 !B's and sometimes df4 !W's but 1+2+5 hits grounded and does not !B.


I guess I'll test this again but RLX f+3+4 is pretty much meant to catch backdashes.
i dont think theres a lot of moves in this game that can make backdashing unsafe. Only one that I know is marduks 1d2. As long as back is held down during backdash its possible to block.


After HSP b+3, RLX 2 catches jumps and beats a lot of options (like most RLX moves it high crushes during its animation). Also, even if you jump away from my RLX 4~3, so what? The most you'll 'punish' me with realistically from that range is a long range mid (like Heihachi's ff+2), which since I'm in HSP (and therefore airborne) will only do 60% damage and probably won't be able to follow up with a juggle (much less a bound juggle). If you come in to do a short range attack to hit me I have a million options from HSP and RLX to deal with that. There's a reason why at max range you see pro players whiff RLX 4~3 and do HSP 4 as the opponent comes in, and it works.
as for "so what", if im just going to guess that rlx 4~3 is coming, blocking first hit and then low parrying second hit only leads to low parry juggle, where if I jump I have more options that can lead to more damage than low parry. It gives capo more room to make mistakes. depending on the frame situation, jumping can eliminate other options or at the very least reduce damage taken. I'll need to do more testing on this later.
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#27 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
i dont play capo, I am not familiar with all their tools, but its hard for me to imagine for better rewarding move if one is fishing for ch.

its -10, it is not far too much minus if opponent is trying to block low extension on reaction. By the time its certain that no extension is coming its too late to interrupt by attacking and unlikely to have enough time to sidestep b1, but it would depend on players reaction speed and characters sidestep speed. Im guessing safer options than b1 are possible, but against an opponent that doesnt know to sidestep around it would be a good gamble. And the damage possibility is remarkable.


Yeah, its usable. I don't like doing things like that but someone could make them work I'm sure. 1+2,3 is a i12 CH that launcher and b+3 is HC, though.

Originally posted by vittujee
uf3~d and any type of attacking can be interrupted on reaction if one is looking for it. even more likely if they are trying to block the low on reaction as the animations are similar and you have experience enough to know when the low should have connected/blocked. Throw is safer against someone who reads uf3~nothing and fishes for ch, but against someone whos willing to commit with launcher (its already insanely risky to attack from that situation so why not) you'll get launched. Im not familiar on how good oki you can gain from normal throws or rodeo.


Of course, but if they are looking hard to differentiate between the mid and the low (which a lot of players, including LianX are trying to do) that gives the Capo player a lot of 'false' advantage to do something.

As for throws, Christie's throws are probably some of the best in the game and Rodeo is one of the most damaging throws in the game (50 points). There's a reason Capo players throw a lot.

Originally posted by vittujee
db3+4 seems safer at whiff, punishing db3+4b can be limited at such range, especially as theres danger of extensions that can deal 50 dmg. if you ch db3+4 into hps can you still juggle? also can you juggle if it ch's but both hits of db3+4 connects?

db3+4 can be b'd into hsp that creates distance, db3+4d goes to rlx, cant be i14 floated on block, but can be dealt with either generic d4 to stop mixup or if character has something better. db3+4 on itself is -10 on block and has extensions 43, both high and if 4 hits on ch 3 is guaranteed and does 48 dmg. also extensions surprisingly jail and are safe on block. marduks 1d2 is only exception to this that I know of.

Two options, after blocking db3+4 crouch and launch punish extensions, use ws4 or similar tool to interrupt rlx and use 1+2+5 if they went to hsp. (1+2+5 can be used from crouch). or character specific tool. By doing this the -10 on block can easily by +5 and if capo does db3+4 on block and immediately after goes for b1 or just attacks in general it will be too late to interrupt their attacks and possibly too late to move, depending on player reaction speed and character movespeed.


I don't know if you get a juggle on CH from HSP, honestly I've never seen anyone go into HSP after that move. 99% of players go straight into RLX from that move, since the extensions are silly (all high?), RLX is a lot safer and allows for a follow up bound juggle on CH. I don't remember but I don't think it can be float punished the same way b+3,3_ws+1,3_d+3~3 can potentially be.

Originally posted by vittujee
at wall b+2 db23 can be tagbuffered for free tag and still does 50 dmg or d23 also does 50dmg and spikes with entering rlx for mixups all from a mid that is safe on block and can be used even at -8. honestly this seems fucking terrifying for character that doesnt have fast move that covers possibility of db1+2 and b2.


Yeah b+2 is super good at the wall. I don't think anybody who knows what they're doing will do db+1+2 at the wall though. There's no reason to do it since all of the wall pressuring mids tend to hit from range (allowing the Capo player to backdash a bit and go for a FCd+1+2,1+2 to W! or something). But I can see db+3+4~d into RLX being used since RLX has like, three, wall splatting mids.

Originally posted by vittujee
it is correct. if something else is better for it, I did not have the time to come up with it. b2 df4 will float opponent onto wall from certain angles. with very short time i spent on testing it, sometimes df4 will hit as groundhit and not float, sometimes df4 !W and 1+2+5 !B's and sometimes df4 !W's but 1+2+5 hits grounded and does not !B.


Wow... I need to try that.


Originally posted by vittujee
i dont think theres a lot of moves in this game that can make backdashing unsafe. Only one that I know is marduks 1d2. As long as back is held down during backdash its possible to block.


I think if you try to backdash at enough disadvantage it won't be safe. But I'm not sure.


Originally posted by vittujee
as for "so what", if im just going to guess that rlx 4~3 is coming, blocking first hit and then low parrying second hit only leads to low parry juggle, where if I jump I have more options that can lead to more damage than low parry. It gives capo more room to make mistakes. depending on the frame situation, jumping can eliminate other options or at the very least reduce damage taken. I'll need to do more testing on this later.


So what option do you have that can do more damage than a low parry combo? I don't use your characters so I can't think of any but try putting the situation I gave you in practice mode with the record function:

HSP b+3 (hits) RLX 4~3 (you jump away) (delay until jump is finished) HSP 4

See if you have something that you can use to punish RLX 4~3 on whiff before HSP 4 comes out (that does more damage then say, a LP combo). Of course you can wait for HSP 4 to finish but I could just, in turn, do RLX 4~3 and hold back to recover (which I think will also cause a lot of moves to whiff).

That said jumping of course is not a bad option. It just has to be used carefully and with other options. Remember at low frame advantage RLX 4 will keep you from jumping with a bound juggle (while still CHing moves that hit RLX), at mid frame advantage RLX f+3+4 does the same (while not being interruptable), and at high frame advantage RLX 2 works (RLX 2 is the best option, but at i20 you need a lot of frame advantage to prevent getting hit by random hopkicks). If someone only jumps RLX they become super easy to take care of, since they're pretty much opening themselves to one part of the 50-50 between a mid poke that juggles airborne opponents and the low launcher.

You kind of have to look from it from my perspective. RLX 4~3 is super good risk/reward. Low parry juggles, as you allude to, don't do very much damage in this game compared to BR. There's not many things to prevent me from doing the move and mixing it up with a good RLX mid (what is good depends on the frame situation, but generally are limited to RLX 4, RLX 2, RLX 1+2 and RLX f+3+4. The RLX mid launcher is very avoidable and RLX 3+4 is sort of slow.) Those mids will juggle if you jump, are pretty low on risk and very good on hit. So, there's no one way to deal with RLX or HSP (like there isn't one way to beat a Kaz player or something, this is, I should say, the number one issue I have with the video that we're discussing). Its all about playing the player.

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 18th, 2013 at 20:01

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#28 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
Yeah, its usable. I don't like doing things like that but someone could make them work I'm sure. 1+2,3 is a i12 CH that launcher and b+3 is HC, though.
1+2,3 seems to be at least -15 on block and seemingly doesnt require as difficult punishing as uf33. Its also high with limited tracking, but it is deceptive on whiff as the extenseion seems to just come out suddenly after whiffing a jab. the range seems kind of bad though and in situations like that its possible that enemy will just keeps holding back/backdashing. b14 cheese factor makes it safer and it takes more effort to punish it than 1+2,3 or b33. but as long as opponent doesnt know how to deal with it, I'd imagine its always better to use cheese when opponent doesnt know how to deal with and only if opponent seems to know how to deal with it switch to some safer options.


Of course, but if they are looking hard to differentiate between the mid and the low (which a lot of players, including LianX are trying to do) that gives the Capo player a lot of 'false' advantage to do something.
as long as player is not going to push buttons right after uf3 on block and keep B or the sorts just waiting for the extension to either hit them or end up blocked I'd imagine you always have enough fake advantage to go wild. Regardless if they try to react to extension or not, as long as they expect the extension to happen.


I don't know if you get a juggle on CH from HSP, honestly I've never seen anyone go into HSP after that move. 99% of players go straight into RLX from that move, since the extensions are silly (all high?), RLX is a lot safer and allows for a follow up bound juggle on CH. I don't remember but I don't think it can be float punished the same way b+3,3_ws+1,3_d+3~3 can potentially be.
lee/violet can float with d4n433 (i12), but its not i14 floatable.



Yeah b+2 is super good at the wall. I don't think anybody who knows what they're doing will do db+1+2 at the wall though.
not considering it will create a blindspot, but I havent tested yet how effective it is at walls, perhaps if pushback is disabled by wall, it can be weaker in backsway evasion. Can youi tell me what tools there are to stop sidewalking at walls from standing/hsp/rlx?


So what option do you have that can do more damage than a low parry combo? I don't use your characters so I can't think of any but try putting the situation I gave you in practice mode with the record function:

HSP b+3 (hits) RLX 4~3 (you jump away) (delay until jump is finished) HSP 4
lee/violet jump back and do running f43 (fff43) and capo has no time to do anything to stop it. capo can reduce damage by d to avoid first hit but bound is going to happen.
jinpachi can jump back and do ws3 and its unavoidable. ws3 lets you bound.
lars jump back dash fb21, if capo does hsp d it evades first hit, bound will still happen.
bryan can dash db2 into float or running f41
dont have to go through more characters now

theres also generic option of jumping over while buffering 1+2 and once you turn around add 5. for some reason you cant just hit 1+2+5 to get it, at least not with all characters. capo can avoid 1+2+5 with sidesway, but will still remain in BT hsp. not sure if hsp has an attack that can hit enemy while you're BT HSP, if they do it might alter the jump over options.

to save time i only tested with eddy, its possible these dont work with tiger/christie



Remember at low frame advantage RLX 4 will keep you from jumping with a bound juggle (while still CHing moves that hit RLX)
i'll keep testing when i have more time.

Its all about playing the player.
i usually try to refrain from talking about non testable results in, but I think you are only partially right. Playing against capo or baek or hwoarang or ling and so on is playing against the character until you know all their options and your options. Theres no room for any kind of mind games when you dont even know what situation you're in and what could be coming. Im not saying you cant play against player if you dont know the character, im sure if your general yomi abilities are great you can still play the player, afterall nothing changes the fact that duck beats throws/highs/lows, blocking standing beats mids and when good enough neutrals throws most of the time.

I'll need to test rlx options more througfully with specific frame advantages. I presume framedata from here http://rbnorway.org/eddy-ttt2u-frames/ will be reliable?
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#29 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
lee/violet jump back and do running f43 (fff43) and capo has no time to do anything to stop it. capo can reduce damage by d to avoid first hit but bound is going to happen.
jinpachi can jump back and do ws3 and its unavoidable. ws3 lets you bound.
lars jump back dash fb21, if capo does hsp d it evades first hit, bound will still happen.
bryan can dash db2 into float or running f41
dont have to go through more characters now


OK I'm going to be quick about this, I really just want to test this. I'll respond to your other points later.

First of all I kind of presumed HSP 4 would be a bit faster than it actually it. There is indeed some time between RLX 4~3 and HSP 4 that the opponent can take advantage (which they will be inclined to do since they are causing a whiff manually). However, Capos have ways to deal with all of those moves as well:

Several of these moves (Jinpachi's ws+3, Lee's f+4,3) get avoided and launched by the extension to RLX 4~3 (4~3,3+4). Thats something I'm going to have to remember, if I see people jump from me). The window to hit the extension is very late too, I could easily wait to see if you jump before comitting.

Jinpachi's ws+3 (way to beat) - RLX 4~3 (whiffs) HSP U (the sidestep from HSP)
Lars fb+2,1 - Gets avoided and whiffed punished with HSP d+3+4. Even without the launcher the second hit whiffs (this seems to be the case with Christie and Eddy, so I don't know how you got it to hit?). Also evaded by HSP U and (depending on the distance) HSP b (allowing the Capo player to block and launch punish).
Bryan's dash db+2 - Avoided by HSP U. Seems a slightly delayed HSP4 works too but very hard to get the timing down and sort of risky.
Bryan's dash f+4,1 - Couldn't get this to beat HSP4 (however in this case HSP 4 has to be done immediately). Otherwise I can't think of anything (this is probably one of the best moves in Tekken to hit HSP, which is balanced by Bryan's very poor options to hit RLX).
Lee's f+4,3 - Gets avoided by HSP b. Also I had issues getting this to beat HSP 4 (if HSP 4 is done immediately). In theory HSP 3+4 (the throw) should put me in standing so I will get hit by the first hit but be able to block the second hit, but I can't find the timing to do HSP 3+4 (If you press 3+4 too early the throw doesn't come out, but rather turns into the extension of RLX 4~3). Otherwise that would be really good too.

My execution is obviously not as good as yours, so if you can re-test if moves like Lee f+4,3 and Bryan's f+4,1 beat HSP 4 (if I mash 4 immediately after RLX 4~3). I couldn't get it to work since I'm not good with iwr motions. Even if HSP 4 can be beaten, see if you can avoid the above options using the same timing to beat HSP 4 (all of the inputs are done the moment RLX 4~3 whiffs). I recommend using multiple record functions in defensive training. If you find something is wrong in the testing above, tell me about it.

The only option that I see as 'universally' good is Bryan's f+4,1, but as we both know, most Bryan players believe that the biggest reason that Bryan got this move in TT2 is specifically to deal with evasive stances. How many other characters have a similar move (a low hitbox long range mid that comes out fairly fast AND bounds?)? Even Lee's f+4,3, which looks similar, doesn't work nearly as well as f+4,1*. For the five characters you mentioned above, I could easily mention five more characters who don't even have a good option to deal with a followup HSP 4 after jumping away from a whiffed RLX 4~3, much less with all the various evasive options (HSP d, HSP U, HSP b) that I covered above. In fact I'd go as far to say that the characters you mentioned are in the minority of the roster (but I could be mistaken, its something that could only be resolved with more testing).

By the way, I only use Christie, I don't play Eddy anymore. Whether or not things are different for Eddy I really don't know (or care, since I switched from Eddy to Christie a looong time ago when TT2U came out). All of the above testing was done with Christie.

If you want, I'll send you the frame data and properties I tested from my notes. You're not going to find more detailed information on the Internet (at least on the English-language Internet). Let me know and I'll send it to you, who knows, you might help me find new things.

Yeah, you do need to know all the options to play against characters with good stances. However that video assumes there's only one or two options, and its creator more or less states 'Capo players aren't smart enough to do other options (like using RLX 2 to catch people jumping after HSP b+3)' You don't think there's a problem with that? Even if you don't like Capos, it ends up making the tutorial incomplete. The end result is that whoever is watching the video assumes there's only one or two things that you need to beat RLX/HSP which is a silly presumption. Not to mention the thing has a lot of errors all around.

* An interesting side note with Bryan's f+4,1, even though it works wonders in HSP, it gets crushed easily by RLX 4~3 and RLX f+3+4 after a blocked transition into RLX. So its usefulness is very limited there.



Edit: You are correct about being able to block during the whole backdash animation, I guess I haven't played in a long time! Still RLX f+3+4 is a super good option since its so low risk and allows me to tell if the opponent likes to backdash/hold back/jump away (it catches jumps)/etc.

Also, if I ever found myself in BT HSP the first thing I would do is do the HSP spring kick to get away from the opponent as fast as possible.

As for db+1+2 at the wall, I'm pretty sure on block it doesn't pushback at the wall (but I'm not sure), doesn't offer a better juggle at the wall then say, a wall splat with uf+4 would, and there are much better ways to create whiffs at the wall then using a slow gimmick sway move that leaves the Capo player immobile if it whiffs. There are much better W! options like fc 1+2,1+2 (the second hit sort of tracks sidesteps and is HC regardless), uf+4 (crushes lows, at max range can be used to bait whiffs with a backdash or even deep sidestep), u+3+4 (crushes lows, pushes back and is only -2), db+4 (high crush W!), the aforementioned db+3+4~d, and just basic pressure (run up RLX or HSP if the opponent is holding back, throws, jab pressure etc.)

Sidewalking is known as a big weakness for Capos but I've put a list of tracking moves in the frame data thread, just check that out. 3,4 is decent despite being a high, uf+4 works better than it should, df+2 tracks one way and has guaranteed followups at the wall, HSP 4 is very good, RLX 4~3, RLX 4, db+3 series, fc_RLX(1+2),1+2 etc. Even if I don't W! being able to knockdown or even gain frame advantage is super good at the wall (as it is for any character). Unfortunetly there's no easy 'braindead' go-to mid W! homing move for Capos to throw out... and a lot of things will vary depending on if the opponent sidesteps as opposes to sidewalks, sidesteps with auto sidestep moves, or if they're character has below or above average SS ability.

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 19th, 2013 at 15:46

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#30 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
If you want, I'll send you the frame data and properties I tested from my notes. You're not going to find more detailed information on the Internet (at least on the English-language Internet). Let me know and I'll send it to you, who knows, you might help me find new things.
please do.


Yeah, you do need to know all the options to play against characters with good stances. However that video assumes there's only one or two options, and its creator more or less states 'Capo players aren't smart enough to do other options (like using RLX 2 to catch people jumping after HSP b+3)' You don't think there's a problem with that? Even if you don't like Capos, it ends up making the tutorial incomplete. The end result is that whoever is watching the video assumes there's only one or two things that you need to beat RLX/HSP which is a silly presumption. Not to mention the thing has a lot of errors all around.
im a bit worried about how much this video seems to offend you.

I think the video is a great start and quite possibly eye opener for people to test these things themselves. I dont recall the video stating that "with these options you always win!" or anything like that. I can relate to how it seems incomplete, but that applies to almost every tekken tutorial video i've seen. Some of them are incorrect and teaching things wrong like in the main man tutorials. But they are still having positive impact on people to learn things, boost morale to study more and so on. Well, it could have some bad impacts too on people when what they've been taught is wrong and doesnt actually work that way, but they still are a start and its hard to imagine having these incomplete videos being more harmful than beneficial. Could be wrong of course, just a thought.

its not a silly presumption to think that stances could be dealt with one or two moves. marduk db2 wins everything when theres 16 frames to spare. Even if it is just one character with db2, its still silly to think that one shouldnt go over all the options and see how many things he needs to be able to counter everything or at the very least if you must be in mixup, know the risk/reward ratio of the options, be able to punish them properly to make sure their risk/reward ratio doesnt decrease and to be able to make guesses what opponent might do next. Its quite possible that there exists characters that need a different move to counter every different option capo has. Wouldnt be surprised if angel was missing tools to deal with some options completely.

I just dont see the video to have been designed to hurt capo players, but more to help people who are struggling really hard against capos in a "i feel your pain" kind of way. If this was just some kind of "fuck you capo players eat shit and die" thing why would Lian even bother trying to explain and show their setups, wouldnt there be less effort requiring ways to just trash talk? not to mention that he said it is a joke right from the start.

Or maybe hes some kind of yomitroll, doing all kinds of things just to not blow his cover like argumenting with reason and defending his video against unreasonable claims. If yomi goes up to 3 layers, then what about a troll who tries so hard to not seem like troll that hes not really trolling, then is he a troll at all?

And based on my experience playing capos (this is online only, as i dont know any capo players offline), it really would seem that when you can break their setups they are left with nothing and eventually keep trying things like the launching sweep incase it just might hit. Their flowchart is pretty much as was seen on the video. I wish i didnt have to, but I suppose I'll have to clarify that this isnt true for every capo player I've faced.

And occasionally you see some players you know that play capos playing other characters and they often dont seem to know even basics. no proper block punishing, no movement other than backdash, cant break throws, keeps random hopkicking out of nowhere and when all fails it goes down to classic hopkick/throw mixup, like a newborn's first attempt to play tekken in the way they've seen others do it. This makes it seem that they dont even know how to play tekken, yet they are able to beat players who presumeably do, but only with capos. Its only natural to feel frustration in a competitive enviroment when someone can put seemingly less effort and have better results.

Which is why the video is funny.

As for db+1+2 at the wall, I'm pretty sure on block it doesn't pushback at the wall (but I'm not sure), doesn't offer a better juggle at the wall then say, a wall splat with uf+4 would, and there are much better ways to create whiffs at the wall then using a slow gimmick sway move that leaves the Capo player immobile if it whiffs. There are much better W! options like fc 1+2,1+2 (the second hit sort of tracks sidesteps and is HC regardless), uf+4 (crushes lows, at max range can be used to bait whiffs with a backdash or even deep sidestep), u+3+4 (crushes lows, pushes back and is only -2), db+4 (high crush W!), the aforementioned db+3+4~d, and just basic pressure (run up RLX or HSP if the opponent is holding back, throws, jab pressure etc.)
I will take a better look at this moves at some point, but for now I'll just respond to db1+2. If I am kazuya and my back is at the wall, but say I managed to hit capo in front of me with ws4 that gives me +8. Against non magical evasive characters I can fairly safely go for ewgf to create distance even on block. Or go for df1f2 or b41 if im worried about them reading my electric and ducking under it. However capos can dp b2 or db1+2. Against b2 I got df2 and db1+2 beats my df2 as it beats pretty much everything but dash electric or f3.
at +8, if I cant backdash or sidewalk Im in a mixup. Quite remarkable moves.

I'll continue testing rlx and hsp when I can. What is input for hsp spring kick?
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by vittujee
im a bit worried about how much this video seems to offend you...


I feel like we're going to have to agree to disagree. I have very limited online experience and I only play arcade and occassionally offline console. I don't feel that video will help you win offline at all. If there are some silly online warrior strats I don't know about that, then I'm not concerned. As far as I saw the only two setups I saw are b+1,4 into HSP moves and HSP 4 into HSP d+3+4. These are "setups" pretty much on the same level as Dragunov doing a df+1 on block and then doing qcb+2 (the backwards sway). Who knows, maybe there are anti Dragunov tutorials which spend ten minutes discussing that as well.

In short, at least offline, trolls with any character don't win very much. Whether or not that's the case online, I don't know.

I do however dislike people calling the character I use 'scrubby', though. And yes, I get offended when people (like LianX in the end of his video, go to 28:18), write things like "Know that these characters do 90% of the work for the player" That's supposed to be funny??

Originally posted by vittujee
its not a silly presumption to think that stances could be dealt with one or two moves. marduk db2 wins everything when theres 16 frames to spare. Even if it is just one character with db2, its still silly to think that one shouldnt go over all the options and see how many things he needs to be able to counter everything or at the very least if you must be in mixup, know the risk/reward ratio of the options, be able to punish them properly to make sure their risk/reward ratio doesnt decrease and to be able to make guesses what opponent might do next. Its quite possible that there exists characters that need a different move to counter every different option capo has. Wouldnt be surprised if angel was missing tools to deal with some options completely.


On Marduk's db+2:

After HSP d+3 (blocked, -2) it will get crushed by RLX 4~3 (and the Marduk player gets launched)
After df+1~f (blocked, -6) it will get crushed by HSP d (and the Marduk player gets launched), HSP U and even HSP f+1.

So to say you only need 16 frames to spare is false... Capos are actually more about hitboxes and distance than frames. Which is similar to the way Tekken characters played in TT1 days.

In a clutch situation in tournament, if I'm playing a Marduk player who only punishes with db+2, I know I have a near guaranteed launcher I can attempt. If I do get floated I risk 14 points of damage (assuming I'm airborne) with zero follows up and not even a huge threat of oki. Knowledge is power.

Originally posted by vittujee
I will take a better look at this moves at some point, but for now I'll just respond to db1+2. If I am kazuya and my back is at the wall, but say I managed to hit capo in front of me with ws4 that gives me +8. Against non magical evasive characters I can fairly safely go for ewgf to create distance even on block. Or go for df1f2 or b41 if im worried about them reading my electric and ducking under it. However capos can dp b2 or db1+2. Against b2 I got df2 and db1+2 beats my df2 as it beats pretty much everything but dash electric or f3.
at +8, if I cant backdash or sidewalk Im in a mixup. Quite remarkable moves.


OK, I understand. I meant using db+1+2 as part of a wall pressure tool, not if you hit me when your back is at the wall. In that case its not a bad option at all. But in that case you shouldn't be worrying about, for example, which moves Capos have to hit sidewalk, etc., no? Anyway I don't see how its different from once again, say, a Dragunov player doing a panic qcb+2, Lei doing a db+1+2, etc. Sway back moves (and this game has quite a number of them) all tend to work more or less the same, albeit at different advantages.

Originally posted by vittujee
I'll continue testing rlx and hsp when I can. What is input for hsp spring kick?


f+3+4 (same as RLX)

Also, it seems I can't really send attachements via TZ PMs. So just refer to the following links

http://www34.zippyshare.com/v/84502306/file.html
http://www34.zippyshare.com/v/16854537/file.html
http://www34.zippyshare.com/v/48247852/file.html (go to the end for RLX_HSP moves on block and hit, there's some Chinese in this document but its easy enough to understand).

(These are still in progress and as such there is bound to be mistakes here and there, keep that in mind. Though the parts which you seem most interested in, stance move startup frames, properties and how they are on hit/block should for the most part be without any errors).

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 19th, 2013 at 20:47

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Wow, seems like after all the rage, awesome things came up from the discussion

I know I was pisse,d I appologize vittujee

So, I posted some videos of Me against Lian and Lian against Rony (the aforementioned Brazilian) in the web theather section, to ilustrate things better:
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...538#post4699538

@Carmen, can you please make available this information you have? I'd eat it for breakfast every morning
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#33 “Quote” Edit Post
Also, I havent read the whole thing yet, but it seems to me the best options out of a uf3~N mix up is a b2. Jundding used it many times already, very effectivly.

What happens is that people will usually try the ws4 to interrupt the uf3d mix up, and b2 will deal with it nicely. If they dont act at wall, it is safe. If you use it twice tho, they might side walk you.
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#34 “Quote” Edit Post
dragunov qcb2 is not going work from -8 against kazuya's df4 meaning you can push the +8 safely. Also its launch punishable on block and the easy kind.

lei's db1+2 will work from -8 against kazuya from slight distance, however range 0 lei's db1+2 doesnt work untíl -2 or -1. hard to test and not going to spend time on that. Also its -11 on block and it has less range than where the move starts from, meaning that if I do nothing it whiffs right in front of me ready to be launched.

Capo on the other hand has b2 and db1+2 safe on block at -6 meaning capo can just loop them unless opponent has a single move that is i16 or faster that deals with both options or they'll have to use 2 or more moves to cover all the options or give up +6 and sidestep. Its like revolution invincibles, but safe on block and superior rewards. I'd be interest to know if there are other evasive moves in ttt2 that can be looped.

On Marduk's db+2:

After HSP d+3 (blocked, -2) it will get crushed by RLX 4~3 (and the Marduk player gets launched)
After df+1~f (blocked, -6) it will get crushed by HSP d (and the Marduk player gets launched), HSP U and even HSP f+1.
hmm, only on christie, no matter how many times i rerecorded on eddy he could not evade db2.

df+1 only seems to have 3 options, go into HSP, do non jailing high extension and just df1.

its one of those weirder non jailing things, as you can attempt to do df4 immediately after blocking df1 and you'll end up in fc and doing fc df4. Also at the same time db2 against eddy will even automatically punish the extension with fc db2 (crouch jab) and has no problem hitting eddy going to hsp.

marduk still has some options
crouch jab -> floats HSP, punishes df11, loses to lowparry/uf4, wins at frames
jab -> wins against capo ssr, uf4 and at frames. stops backdash. whiffs against HSPd but recovers fast enough to block everything after it.
db2 -> automatic crouch jab against df11, wins against b2, db1+2, loses to df1f hsp~d and 1+2,3 or jabs
d3 -> punishes df11 with fc d3, wins against b2, db1+2, 1+2,3 or jabs.


Still its surprising that christie can hsp~d_rlx 4~3 under db2 at certain frames even rlx 4~3. then again, christie only. well, didnt test tiger, probably should.

"Know that these characters do 90% of the work for the player" That's supposed to be funny??
I dont completely disagree, the exaggeration is what makes it funny. People would be saying the same thing about kazuya if his df2 would automatically perfect electric launch on ch. that would be -12 homing mid that does 27dmg on normal hit and 63dmg launcher on ch.

Playing against capo feels like you have to earn to not to be in a mixup, when usually you have to earn a mixup. Everytime they do a move that can end in rlx you have to immediately stop it with really weak rewards, even if you block the move. If your only option to stop rlx 4~3 mixup is d4 you do 4 damage and if rlx 4~3 juggledamage is 80, thats 20x more damage.

Every move you use should be a knockdown, force opponent crouching or a launcher since frames dont apply against standing capos. Whiff punishing is a pain in the ass because you need to know if the move is even whiff punishable or are you just running into rlx 4~3. Even the slow sweep is kind of good because you can get it blocked and have opponent attempt block punish but end up whiffing and suddenly capo gets a launch as a whiff punisher. Punishing some of capos moves requires dashing which will increase the chances of misinput and getting launched instead.

If thats not character doing the work of a player I dont know what is.



I tested some tracking properties of christie and I cant really find other moves that are fast and track both sides than 3, b1 and d3. uf4 is really slow but I guess the damage and range makes up for it.

I cant continue testing for a while, I'll be busy. Im still planning to test all of kazuya vs rlx/hsp from all frames if not anything else. I will report findings here. Also I forgot to confirm df1f U and f1 evading db2, maybe another time.
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#35 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't know, I still think db+1+2 is a bit too gimmicky to throw out. But I never went that much into depth with testing it as a panic button, maybe I should implement it more.

But here's a piece of advice a friend gave me when I started Tekken way back in BR days: just because you have frame advantage, doesn't mean you have to always attack. If you watch Korean vids, a lot of time after successful punishes, df+1s and other moves they will not always press buttons, instead you'll see them occassionally sidestepping, backdashing, dashing in and blocking, or even holding back for a split second and then attacking. The beauty of Tekken is that you can't just use continuous frame advantage with the opponent having no option but to get guard crushed into a corner (otherwise everyone should just use Hwoarang). If you're really having problems with db+1+2 and b+2 all you have to do is backdash or I think even hold back (from what I remember in BR, if you just hold back db+1+2 will whiff, and has a big enough whiff animation to get punished by a delayed hopkick). That way your opponent will get confused as to your tempo and not know when they should attack (if at all). Its also the reason sway back moves like db+1+2 are very rarely seen in arcade match vids.

This is very important advice if you want to go from beginner to intermediate level in this game, regardless of which character you use. Once you get a hang of it, you'll notice the people you play with will suddenly become a lot more afraid of your offense.

df+1 alone is actually super good. Its -2 on block, which as I mentioned on the Hwo forums with some of hits moves, is really strong. -2 means I can jab through any mid except for the rare i12 mids (which tend to be linear or backsteppable or both) for either a NCC 1,3 or a CH jab (which gives me access to a very strong advantage mixup at close range), and I can deal with highs by ducking and using ws+4 or ws+1,3. If a player (like the Marduk in your example) is only going to use lows and highs to deal with me and has no guaranteed mid option, then it becomes a bilateral mixup with me having both offensive and defensive options instead of me forced to play defense.

I don't play Eddy anymore, and when I used to use him way back in TT2 original, I didn't know how to use HSP properly. I am surprised his HSP d doesn't evade Marduk's db+2 though. But I'm sure HSP U will do so.

As for the last point, well, I don't know, if you think Slippery Kicks (the slow sweep) is good and allows the "character [to do] the work of the player", then I'm sorry to say, there might be too much of a difference in skill to facilitate proper communication. As far as I remember that move is like, one of the slowest sweeps in the game (30+ frames? up there with Roger's ss+4 which gives the same animation on block) and also one of the most punishable. Of course its great if it hits (i.e. when the other person falls asleep) and actually is has very good use on oki or if whiffed from a distance into the extensions, but by that token Baek's db+4 is also good. If you're having problems with that move then I don't know what to tell you...

Anyway I've already posted the links to my RLX/HSP notes. You're welcome to make use of them.

@Luiz my notes are all scattered all over the place and still incomplete. In addition to the flowchart and stance notes I have above, I've been working on redoing my oki notes (which are really messy, but important since oki is so good for Capos) and on evasion in stance. Of those, the latter is by far the most important, since anytime we go into RLX or HSP, we always take some sort of risk because we can't block in stance. So in order to maximise reward and minimise risk, we have to pay super close attention to which moves opponents use to hit us. I've been trying to get down a list of all moves every character can use to hit RLX and what we can/should do about them. Even if it means putting yourself airborne with f+3+4 to reduce damage from 100% to 60%, that's very important as those few points can make the difference between winning and losing (I've got so many close wins because I would intentionally put myself in an airborne state to reduce guaranteed damage). Unfortunetly, the downside is we have to do a lot more memorization than players of other characters do, since we have to look even deeper into move properties (with my other characters, all I have to know frames of other moves, if they track or not etc.) But anyway, here's what I have so far, its really incomplete, hopefully I'll have some motivation to finish it. I also need to incorporate HSP evasion into it as well: http://www45.zippyshare.com/v/13576033/file.html

Juggles/combos: http://www24.zippyshare.com/v/26005084/file.html

There's the three documents I linked in the previous post as well. On top of that I had something on strings/stances where b+2 is a strong option (it evades much more to the right than any other move I've seen in the game so far), stuff on space controlling moves (have you ever noticed how Misty is able to Rodeo people coming in? There's actually a ton of setups for that), etc.

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 20th, 2013 at 13:46

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#36 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
I do however dislike people calling the character I use 'scrubby', though. And yes, I get offended when people (like LianX in the end of his video, go to 28:18), write things like "Know that these characters do 90% of the work for the player" That's supposed to be funny??

Everything I wrote was based in my experience playing against capo players from scene here, you would understand that sentence if you could see they playing with other characters.

But I have not played against all Eddy players in the world yet, so a lot of things I wrote is not an absolute truth, people should keep that in mind, I didn´t think I would have to tell it.

By the way, the whole video has a bit of humor, but of course when you feel like you´re the target of the jokes, it doesn´t seems so funny.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#37 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
I don't know, I still think db+1+2 is a bit too gimmicky to throw out. But I never went that much into depth with testing it as a panic button, maybe I should implement it more.
i dont understand concept of panic button. If I had this db1+2 on kazuya I would be using it based on what actions opponent tends to do in certain situations and use db1+2 when I have more than 60% unless theres a risk of being carried to wall. The brilliance of having an option that can launch opponent even from -8, you dont even need to use a lot, just make it work 1-2 times and you'll be creating hesitation on an opponent that has not prepared for that. And if they are or even can be prepared for that you have succesfully limited their options which can create new openings.

And I'd always make sure that when I push opponent back it'd be a corner. Now that I think of it, do capos have wallsplat throw? Hmm and since capos sidemovement is horrible its not like they can control the direction of the match as well as most of the cast.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
But here's a piece of advice a friend gave me when I started Tekken way back in BR days: just because you have frame advantage, doesn't mean you have to always attack.
if the risk/reward is always against attacking then it doesnt mean that you have to always attack. It means that you should never attack, except for when you need show them that you do sometimes attack.

Standing capo does not seem to pose much threat, at least not so much as capo in rlx or capo in hsp. Not attacking at +8 means capo can just go HSP and I dont think HSP has tracking issues from what I previously fast tested. Or lack of range or options how to deal with things. So, not really fond of having +8 frames and facing "mixup" or b2, db1+2 and hsp in my face. If you do not wish to acknowledge the remarkeableness of these moves, that is fine. If you want to pursue me to change my mind, you'll have to find me a kazuya move that will at +8 cover both options and be at most i18 so that it would only trade with jabs. Or at least find another character with move or moves that actually can loop it and we can discuss this more.

I don't play Eddy anymore, and when I used to use him way back in TT2 original, I didn't know how to use HSP properly. I am surprised his HSP d doesn't evade Marduk's db+2 though. But I'm sure HSP U will do so.
will test when time. it seems hsp U is just canceling hsp in sort of forward roll fashion, is this correct?

As for the last point, well, I don't know, if you think Slippery Kicks (the slow sweep) is good and allows the "character [to do] the work of the player", then I'm sorry to say, there might be too much of a difference in skill to facilitate proper communication. As far as I remember that move is like, one of the slowest sweeps in the game (30+ frames? up there with Roger's ss+4 which gives the same animation on block) and also one of the most punishable. Of course its great if it hits (i.e. when the other person falls asleep) and actually is has very good use on oki or if whiffed from a distance into the extensions, but by that token Baek's db+4 is also good. If you're having problems with that move then I don't know what to tell you...
theres a really big difference between -40 and -22. I have problems punishing that move, it requires crouch cancel into electric or waiting a very specific amount of time to land ws2. ws2 is -18 on block and since online capos dont tend to attempt to duck after having Slippery Kicks blocked, its generally safer to try ewgf.

I dont think you understood what I meant and I predict that attempting to reach some kind of mutual conclusion is going to take lot of time and ultimately it will be meaningless to my goals whether you keep being offended by an exaggeration joke on video or not. So instead of going on that road, heres a though:

Im interesting in anticapo, not just anti-high-level-capo or online-capo or whatevercapo. Im interested in all of them. Regardless of if x is ever done in high or low level plays, knowing the options and examples of countermeasures to avoid true mixups. I will gather information, test things best to my ability and share results. Currently im held back by lack of time.
ENHEAS
Virtuoso
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 221
From: Italy
PSN: ENHEAS_TK
XBL: no x box
#38 “Quote” Edit Post
I believe you cannot take any char of the game out of the roster\game features\entire movelist context.
You can't say any char is broken until you test it, you deep study it, and you accumulate enough in-game experience. Most of the moves have at least a defect or something you can deal with, but sometimes it's not that easy to find.

You should also know that any char can spam shit, that the entire roster has T O N S of shit, that noobs are everywhere, and that TTT2 in many ppl's opinion is by far the hardest tekken to master , in terms of things\situations\setups\unique patterns\exceptions to learn and being able to face and handle.

In my opinion when anyone speaks of a Char, discuss or criticize him\her , this should be referred as @ high level. Not TOP, but high. Because only at high level ad above you have players who can really understand what's going on in the game, why something happens, and how to maximize the info gathered from a loss in order to win next time.

And NO WAY you can talk anything of a char referring to ONLINE. This doesn't even need a comment.

This said, I believe any dedicated Chreddy player really feels what I just told about, because, from my experience, there's NO BLOODY WAY for an Eddy player to win if he\her doesn't spend hours and hours studying many different situations and adjust Chreddy's limits and defects to that specific opponent\character \situation.
I'm not saying other players don't, but often who dont play with Eddy quite regularly or studied him well, they tend to forget both respect and get veeeeeeeeeeeery superb.

- VS an average player who doesnt know much of Capos:
You pick Chreddy, and immediately opponent's char's shit is taken out of the command list(Lars's, Leo's, Jinpachi's Bob's Julia's Feng's Xiao's Hwo's command list is made of 4 moves) You're offline, but game lags like at 1 bar for opponent only of course. Opponent's safest move becomes at least -16 and it's a high, he can't press down to duck nor backdash. On the other hand Eddy's moves are all safe, with half-stage pushback, +9 on hit, and transition to relax is 2 frames speed. Hence every Chreddy\other char team becomes the best in the game. Last but not least, b+1,4,3+4 is starter in natural hit AND on block, plus Eddy disappears from every opponent's practice mode.

- Vs an experienced player: you can't abuse anything at all. You're considered braindead if you use anything a noob says it's broken, but because you're so stupid you're trying something either so obvious or risky.
Ch b1,4,3+4 lands lets say 3\4 times at max in a tight FT5 battle. No more. Raw Uf3 is very rare and gets stepped or floated by almost any move. Throws are escaped and all you can rely on is THE SAME OLD SHIT, FROM TTT1 ONWARDS: bdash, df2, uf4, ss3+4, df11, ss4, whiff punishing. The higher you get the less you rely on relax and hsp. The pressing is not frame based but mainly psychological. Everything you try to trick your opponent (and this means also simple relax canceling) can be turned into a float juggle, a high punishment or a forced Oki. The real revolution from T5DR to TTT2 has been ws13 and ws2 becoming juggles starters on NH. B14 is better to have it than not to have it of course, but it's not fundamental imho.


A spammer noob picking Chreddy is the same as any other picking any char. They all spam shit over and over. They don't reserve much attention, also because they might get you once, twice, but from the third time onwards they'll just keep getting their ass kicked.

A dedicated Chreddy player is usually very pissed to be mocked by the first button masher or a tekken Pro wannabe, because it's very hard to swallow all that poison that can also come from people who use FAAAAAAR more broken chars than Capos.


The so called braindead options aren't at all to me. If you raw relax, the transition should be 22 frames if I remember correctly. The fastest move from rlx is 15 frames, so you have 22+ frames to realize Eddy's gone into relax. Plus relax gets easily intercepted by mids. If you get into relax from hsp, Well this means that Eddy has been IN YOUR FACE for a while, you let him both go in hsp and mixup, so being on hit at + frames in rlx, it's a reward for your mindgame (or a punishment for being too still), in a game where being close to the opp is VERY risky due to the large amount of shit he can throw at you.
Both starters from relax are punishable. Eddy's juggle from there doesn't take that much. If you can tag out to take red bar or TA!, you take not that much damage, and in case of a TA! you loose your red bar and give opponent's side char netsu. But usually the juggle ends with rlx2f3. F3 throws the enemy far away. this means that if you're not at wall, opp's side char can tag in in rage. If you're at wall, they can tag crash so you end up being at wall without being able to intercept opponent's char landing or to get him back turned.

Same for uf3. If you try it when opp is on the floor, it can be easily avoided, and very often if eddy goes for example into uf3,3+4, he might end on opp's side, becoming vulnerable. If you go for uf3 from standing, again you're landing a very straight and slow move, plus both choices are very risky on block.

B2, db+1+2 or db3+4 are MOVES. NOT transitions NOR stances. Don't you forget it. This means that you can always get Countered, while all other chars could've ss and block and decide what to do or ss punish with a starter instead. This is a HUGE difference to me. B2 ssr automatically. But anything left-steppable is free vs Eddy. Furthermore db1+2 and db3+4 share the old T5DR db1+2 abilities. So there are not so many universal moves you can eat with all of them 3 Capos evasive choices. You have to predict what's coming up next and take the risk of throwing something in a situation where you're already being pressed, aware of the possible CH in your face you might get.
They're safe because EDDY can't step. If they were unsafe, you can easily imagine many different situations in which eddy couldn't do anything.

b14 you can ss the 4, you can avoid the mixup, hsp 4 must be thrown right after the hsp transition so it's basically a string that blocked means quite heavy punishment, and 3+4 option means death on block.
The Ch is not that easy to be confirmed and in my opinion it's not a real hit confirm.

Df2 is his best move, and it's very good. Imho df2 >>> b14. But the price for this very good move is that Eddy's 14 frame punishment is 35 dmg, NO FIFTEEN FRAMES PUNISHER, and 16 frame punisher being -23 on (!!!!!) on block.

Then i look at the roster, and smile at the TONS of more evasive moves, faster evasive stances, faster and better transitions, hopkicks, low\mid\high crash very damaging moves, insane oki, safe+antistep+low crash+wallsplat (Leo i'm talking to you) 100+ dmg moves, giant swings etc that are spread all around.

I know that if we're talking of Capos we have to discuss their shit. But Capos are playing VS another team, and we should consider their interaction and the balance of the matchup instead. I'm pretty sure it would be fair enough even for the non capos team LOL
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#39 “Quote” Edit Post
@vittujee

This is turning more into Capo vs. Kazuya rather then anti-Capo. Which is OK, since you're obv. a Kazuya main. I haven't played Mishima mains, but I have played good players who play Mishimas and other characters, and they have all told me they feel Mishimas vs. Capos are a very bad match for Mishimas. In fact, one of my buddies from the arcade remarked once that he felt the need to switch out and not use Mishimas if we ever got in a very intense ranking battle.

So, I don't really appreciate the difficulty you have in punishing slippery kicks (in fact, it reminds me of a Tekken Crash match where Tongal Love blocked Baek's sweep, which gives a similar block stun, and was unable to punish it). So I guess against Mishimas I should maybe do things like RLX 2,4,3+4,4 or something for not so much risk. But as far as the characters I use, Lei can punish slippery kicks with ff+3, Christie can punish with ws+3, and Hwoarang can punish with b+3 (without crouch cancel, which, embarassingly, I never learned how to do).

Capos df+1+2 throw wall splats ahead of them (or is it behind them? I never use this throw) but I don't think anything is guaranteed? I prefer to use Rodeo (though that switches position).

As for moves that cover both b+2 and db+1+2, I think Hwoarang's d+4 hits both options. But I don't know about Kazuya.

HSP U is when Christie tilts to her side and recovers in WS. She can also choose to do HSP U,d, which puts her back in HSP, or HSP U,3_4, which is slow useless sweep. Its an incredibly good evasive move that evades pretty much everything HSP d can't evade (both moves used together means there's very little that HSP can't evade).

Anyway, yeah, you're welcome to raise more problem moves and stuff. But I don't think any of us use your character so whatever help we're going to offer you is really limited.

@ENHEAS

I agree with most everything you said. Actually, the one thing that really makes Capos very hard compared to other characters is that so much of thier knowledge is untransferrable. Meaning, 90% of what you need to learn to play Capoeira well can't be used for any other character. Likewise, 90% of any other character's knowledge does not apply for Capoeira. Capos are actually not my main character (Hwoarang is), so I find it very difficult sometimes to transition between the two. Being able to sidestep, by itself, is such an important tool that Capos can't use. With other characters, you can build very strong momentum off of punishes. The ONLY punish with Capos, meanwhile, that gives you good standing options is a single standing 1. 1,2 pushes back so df+1 is backsteppable, same with b+3~f, f+2,1 is not very good frames, neither is 1+2 (whenever it luckily hits). So there is a reason why Capo players sometimes elect to use thier plus frames to force a mixup rather than do a standing punish than other characters.

I think the only character that requires as much as specific knowledge to play as is probably Kuma, and maybe Xiaoyu as well? Which is the reason why Misty, Hankuma and Sodam don't mess around with other characters a lot (and when they do, they do very poorly).

df+2 is very good but with Christie the qcf+3_f+3+4 followups whiff at a lot of ranges. And its only 20 damage. That's one thing I miss about not using Eddy anymore.

Anyway, I think it is still possible to play a stance heavy game even against good players. It just requires more knowledge and the understanding that you have to take 'some' damage. Then it becomes a matter of knowing if the other characters can punish you heavily for being in stance or only lightly. If someone can bound me in stance, I will naturally try to use stances less, but if all they can do is hit me with a small poke (which can't juggle me if I'm airborne), then I'll be more willing to go into stance. You've seen these videos before, but this guy is pretty much the style I'm trying to learn for playing Christie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36OHsdOgux0 His stance knowledge and anti-character knowledge is, very very impressive!

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 21st, 2013 at 04:39

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#40 “Quote” Edit Post
One thing let to another and I've been working on something more than just anti capo.

But what I had found is that after jumping back from rlx 4~3, baek can do as fast as possible ff43 and beats every option that can follow as far as I can tell. You get a juggle off ff43 with dash 433f and if capo does hsp d to avoid first hit from ff43 you can followup with db33f. With kazuya I was unable to find anything that would really cover everything while doing more damage than low parry juggle.

kazuyas b24 sometimes goes through christies blocked ws13 (can be floated by i14 that hits low) and b33 (same thing). Havent seen such thing happen against eddy. For increased safety, against christie you need to do d4 to stop the mixup. df3 might also work, but its a lot slower and even so it only deals 4 more damage. It has a chance to float the capo if they tried to do rlx 4~3 or hit normally other moves that you can hitconfirm into df32 worth 37 damage.

at +8 (jab and ws4 on hit) you can use f3 and db4 to beat b2, db1+2, b14 ch and 1+2~3 ch. both lose to jabs, but sidestep beats jabs among other things. sometimes f3 goes through b2, but you end up in BT and eddy is behind you and you can use BT 1+2 (20 dmg) to punish the whiffed b2.

after blocking df2, f3 beats everything. if eddy stands still he can punish f3 with df11 (23 damage). christie cant punish it afaik.

+5 or +6 for kazuya after df32 or 22 that leaves opponent at range 0, db4 is able to beat b2 + db1+2, but loses to 1+2~3 ch launcher creating a nasty blindspot. df2 beats everything but db1+2, but is -12 on block (capos get f21 puninsh for it worth 28 damage or use jabs to gain some damage + frames or just use the frames for something nasty). It might be best go all in with df32<1 if you think the capo is up to no good. capo can punish it with launcher, but your launch will do more damage. Movement is safest option. Alternatively you can stop at df3 for +9 advantage and use f3 and db4. f3 trades with jabs and you do more damage.

Frames less than +8 against capo for kazuya no significant value in lowering risks for attacking. Safest option is moving. You can also use jab and still block db1+2 at +0. df2 is risky for numerous reasons but at +2 its still safe against ch launches and b2, while vulnerable to db1+2. Jab can be launched at such frames via iws13, hit by b2 and high crushing attacks, but its likely that a good number of those can be countered by df2 for beefy ch launch. Blocked jab gives +1 which makes df2 vulnerable to 1+2~3 ch launch, but jab would beat it and give you the +8 that you want. capo 1+2~3 is ewgf punishable on block if you can bait it out.

At +8 or more f3 becomes quite effective if it goes unpunished and uninterrupted. at range 0 db4 becomes safe from being launched. jab is also relatively safe, as you can block db1+2 after it whiffs. b2 will hit jab, but df2, ssr and f3 beats b2.

if you get capos back stuck to the wall at +8, b41 and dk df12 beats everything, but are punishable on block (no knockdown). f3 still works, but can be punished on block. (no knockdown though) db2 also works but can be interrupted by jabs. b12 is also an option at walls since its -15 on block and I dont think capo's get launch there, but they do get a knockdown with df2.


---

getting punished by 124, 1244, 1243

attempt to lowparry after the jabs hit you, if high goes over you, ws4 to float into juggle. if no high comes out, keeping lowparry ready will take care of the low and if they seem to be landing without attacking ws4 can punish them, but even if it does not it leaves you fairly far away at -3. afaik they dont have reversals to deal with it.

You can also take the risk of being hit by high by immediately after getting hit by 12 use b24 to float the jump. The high deals 43 damage on counter, but if they do empty jump you get b24 normal hit worth 32 damage with +8 (which pretty good). If they go for low you get b24 db2 !B dewgf dewgf worth 44 damage and free tag. You can also tag assault and even wallcarry with it into 60-70 damage.

Be wary that if you blindly just mashout b24 you can get hit by ch b1 into 130 damage or more. You have enough time to see they are jumping if you keep in mind that it could happen. swr also evades b1 and the low, but high will hit for 36 damage.

---

Pretty sure kaz stuff vs capo would be categorized as "anti capo" information.

I was thinking of holding on to this and possibly edit and add stances but I figured this has been just waiting without further progress for a while now so might as well post it now and come back to it when I have the time to go over them stances and standing moves.

 All times are GMT. The time now is 09:32

Page Splits <123>
Moderator Tools
Forum Jump