Anti-Chreddy guide

Page Splits 123>
Share This Topic
Share
Subscribe/Jump Subscribe This Topic
< >
waes
1st Dan
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 17
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Hi everyone.

I've started working on a guide for people struggling to beat chreddy in order to both help my offline community grow and also develop my own understanding of my tag team and its weaknessess. It's a work in progress but I've finished off two of the sections so far and thought I might aswell post it here since, despite being incomplete, its usable. I'll try to finish it off during the coming days/week. Please notify me of errors and important missing information if you find any

Punishables:
Alright lets start of with getting familiar with what we can punish. Some of these moves will probably force you to use unorthodox punishers because of the built in recovery properties of the moves.

1, 3 / 1, 3~D:
-11/-12
All moves finishing in the same 3 have these negative frames

f+2, 1, 4:
-14

f+4, 3:
-12

f+4, 3, 3+4:
-14
If this move is thrown out off axis usually only the first hit of the 3+4 part
will connect, making it -22

b+3~f:
-17
This move has a slightpushback so I'm not sure if everyone can punish it but i know that bob can consistantly punish it.

b+3, 3:
-14
Any of the hits ending with the second 3 are -14

qcf 3:
-12

ws2:
-12

f, f+2, 3:
-19

u/f+3+4:
-13

d/f 3+4:
-23
All strings finishing with this is also -23

3~4:
-24
Beware here when punishing, if only the second hit connects there will be no guardstun!

d/f+2:
-10
Due to this moves pushback only some of the cast can punish this move 100 % of the time. I believe Jack, Bob are among those who can and apparently Hwoarang as of TTT2U. Anyway, quite a few are able to punish it now so go try it. It comes down to the characters armlength.

FC 1+2, 1+2:
-13

RLX 3~4:
-24

RLX f+3+4:
-13
This move is range dependant and is safe when block occurs late in the
animation

HSP D~3+4: -11

HSP d, 3:
-45

HSP b+3:
-14

HSP f+3+4:
-16
This move is range dependant and is less punishable when block occurs
late in the animation

SS 3+4:
-12
Worth to note here is that if only the first hit connects this move is -18 and launch punishable



Frame traps/Setups:
The cappos aren't a pair that have many +frames on block and therefore need to keep the opponent guessing to get those attacks to hit. I'll cover the one's that I use most often but there are many that I'm not utilizing to the fullest so please let me know and I'll add them.

D+3~4:
Despite the tweaks to this move since T6:BR it's still a great asset to the cappos' poking arsenal. It's +3 on hit and ch, leaving the cappos as standing and yourself in fc/while rising. So it's not a good idea to throw anything at them unless they're getting cocky and you might get in a while rising 4. Something to be extra vary of now that this move has had its pushback toned down is that the cappos are usually in range for 12 frame 1+2~3 which will ch for full juggle if you throw anything at them (this has to be one of if not the best 12 frames in the game, shame you can't really hitconfirm it..) It's -13 on block so if you have a 13 frame while rising launcher your golden, but for those that don't it's not all bad since they now made the move lowparryable.

SS+4:
SUCH a badass move! Leaves the cappos +8 on both nh and ch and pretty much free to do whatever they want. Attacking will only net you getting yourself launched or ch juggled by the b+1 string or eat a d/f+3+4. Another thing to be aware of here is the possibility of chreddy going into a relax mixup after this move hits.

Db3+4~d:
On hit, this move leaves chreddy in rlx and at +8 frames so you are forced into the mixup game again. No amount of jumping/stepping/walking will get you out of it so be on the lookout for the launchers!

FfF+3:
Leaves chreddy in rlx and at +6 frames so you are forced into the same mixup game as db3+4~d.

B+1:
This move is so badass, I love it! A very good tool that got introduced now in ttt2 not only does it lead into the f+4 mixups but on its own its +8 on hit. One of those moves where one should be expecting a rodeo to be thrown out since it leaves chreddy at the perfect distance for this. Other than that it's basically the same as SS+4

And then you have all the normal frametraps aswell, of ws4, df11 etc which leaves chreddy at +8 so it's the same guessing games as b+1. I know I've missed some unique setups so please let me know which ones if you want me to add them.

Key moves broken down:

Wall situations:

Okizeme situations:

Acknowledgement:
First and foremost I'd like to thank the allmighty, allknowing, Noodalls for his great effort with frame data and his continues experimentation with the cappos to keep finding new stuff.

Many more people will be added here when i finish up the three remaining sections but for now I'll leave it with a general thank you to all the active and informed people in the chreddy forums

Last edited by waes on Nov 19th, 2012 at 20:30

CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
d3~4 doesn't put Capos in FC...

I guess its worth noting that df3 (and all the moves that lead into it, like 1,3 etc) on hit is minus into HSP and RLX, if they do a ws4 right away it should beat your RLX options (though you might be able to tag out to bait it).
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
waes
1st Dan
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 17
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm not sure if you read my post or if you just saw anti-chreddy and decided to jump in with two of your own random points?

I never say that d+3~4 puts you in FC.

I already say that 1, 3 and 1, 3~d are -11 and -12 respectively. You cannot tag out to bait since you will just get caught, especially from since you can't tag from hsp stance. However you get to apply some yomi on 1, 3. If cappo do the hsp throw they will just eat a standing hit and not get floated. Once they've done this once or twice tho as an opponent you should mix up you punishers and go for a full launcher (for example lars shifting between f+1+2 and db+1, 2).
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by waes
D+3~4:
Despite the tweaks to this move since T6:BR it's still a great asset to the cappos' poking arsenal. It's +3 on hit and ch and both you and your opponent recover standing.


You and your opponent? Unless you mean both you and your opponent recover in full standing... which... is also incorrect...

My meaning is, if your opponent is sharp enough, they can interupt any attack after being hit with df3~d into RLX. Which might be "important missing information" that people who are reading an anti-capo guide might want to know. Or not, your call.
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
waes
1st Dan
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 17
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
You and your opponent? Unless you mean both you and your opponent recover in full standing... which... is also incorrect...

My meaning is, if your opponent is sharp enough, they can interupt any attack after being hit with df3~d into RLX. Which might be "important missing information" that people who are reading an anti-capo guide might want to know. Or not, your call.


Awright sound, just went into practice mode to test it and ur right. If your hit you'll recover in while rising/fc, I thought that this was changed from BR. Thanks for pointing this out and will edit it.

Ah, i see now. I missed the fact that you were talking about on hit, thought you meant on block. Yea I was going to mention this under key moves broken down when covering RLX and its transitions so ur a bit early on the ball for that one
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
An Anti-Chreddy Tutorial


Sorry about the jokes, I could not help.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
If you punish me with Nina's d+4,1 everytime I go into RLX I'll just get up, eat the low as a standing hit and duck the second hit and launch you. Also I want to say if I did d+2,3 or ss+3 into RLX and you punished me with Steve's b+2, my RLX 4~3 would cause you to whiff. (I need to confirm to make sure, but, based on experience, it looks like the sort of mid RLX 4~3 goes under)

HSPb+3 pretty much forces a mixup between RLX4~3 and RLX2. It depends on what range you get hit by it for the most part in match it hits the opponent at super close range and most characters can't backdash that mixup I mentioned. I've played and watched enough matches and I've never seen, in match, anyone successfully backstepping RLX4~3 after HSPb+3.

After HSP4 (or any HSP transition on block), I don't need to only do HSP duck. I can also do the HSP sidestep (which causes say, Julia's one hit bound... d+2?... to whiff) or use HSP 3+4 to put myself in standing which can beat moves like Nina's d+4,1 etc.

Also if you're hitting me in RLX and HSP, unless I'm getting floated for a bound juggle into TA, you're doing very little damage. Eating 9 damage is not going to discourage me if I can get a launcher once, as you'll need to hit me 10 times (!) to equal the damage of one RLX 4~3. I think that's worth mentioning. Standard hopkicks are jab punishable in this game but in the end, a jab punish means very little in this game and a launcher means a lot (don't blame me, blame TT2's shitty design).

Honestly my advice as someone who plays Capos is always mixing up options to deal with thier stances. Mixup between sidestep, jumping and hitting them out of stance. But mixing up stuff is a good Tekken strategy in general.

Its a good video, but its not like Capos don't have options...

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 14th, 2013 at 14:31

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Before anything, my main characters are Jin and Devil Jin. So I did not test deeply characters like Steve and Julia.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
If you punish me with Nina's d+4,1 everytime I go into RLX I'll just get up, eat the low as a standing hit and duck the second hit and launch you.

I didn't say you can punish every RLX with Nina/Anna's d+4,1, but there are some transitions that they always get the float with d+4,1.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
HSPb+3 pretty much forces a mixup between RLX4~3 and RLX2.

You can't backdash only if you're holding "f' when hit by HSPb+3, otherwise your backdash will guard RLX,2 and will take only the first hit of 4~3.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
Also if you're hitting me in RLX and HSP, unless I'm getting floated for a bound juggle into TA, you're doing very little damage. Eating 9 damage is not going to discourage me if I can get a launcher once, as you'll need to hit me 10 times (!) to equal the damage of one RLX 4~3.

You're right. That is why we should hit with a powerful move if capo doesn't press buttons when RLX transition is guarded. So it's not a good idea trying always a Bob's b+2 for example.

Of course capos have their options, although if people starts to sidestep their b+1,4 and hit them out of RLX, there's nothing much they can do. But the purpose of this video is to alert people about some auto-pilots Chreddy players so capos will have to use those other options you said.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
You seem really pissed in this video, it even looks like you lost a tournament to someone who plays capos...

Also, I got curious about uf3 beeing 50/50 or not, and I did my research, and here it is:

I recorded both strings on a video, used a 33fps frame recorder and compared them both.

Mid:
http://youtu.be/gmEyO8iEt3s
Low:
http://youtu.be/1eAKCXD9mYQ

Here are both gifs:
http://gifti.me/i/jMTSBdnfY.gif
http://gifti.me/i/JdY309.gif

They don't start at the same time, so I used a trick to put them at the same time. I used hit analysis and fixed the frame in which Christie goes from blue to normal after getting hit by the uf3. Take a look at the transition, in the mid gif, it happens @45-46, and it happens @21-22 on the low gif:
Mid:
http://gifti.me/i/iRAIKp6.png
Low:
http://gifti.me/i/1BbXkmlSVz.png
That means Gifs are 24 delayed between each other and now we can compare them.

On frames 39/15, Eddy touches Christie. Let's call it frame 0.

Move goes on as Eddy recovers from uf3.

You can tell the strings apart on frame 4:
Frame 3 looks the same, but on frame 4 they are different (barely):
http://gifti.me/i/UBzEh3Z46N.png
http://gifti.me/i/GNgQjOC.png

Eddy finally hits Christie with either 3+4 (low) or 3 (mid) at the frame 9:
uf3,3:
http://gifti.me/i/4TR0m3z.png
uf3,3+4:
http://gifti.me/i/gpLRA7.png


9-4 = 5 frames. Since I used a 33fps recorder, every frame counts as 1,8 in Tekken (60/33 = 1.8). You multiply 5 for 1.8 you have 9 frames to react to the FAKE mix up.

If you can call this string, you can totally duck jabs on reaction.
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Even Knee lost to a capo player, why can't I?

Regarding u/f+3, I did my own "research". It was a really complex method:

I recorded both strings in "Practice Mode: Defensive Training" and tried to guard correctly until I get five strikes.

u/f+3 series

Now you can say I'm very lucky or I'm cheating somehow.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Very lucky of course, I just proved it's a 50-50. You were lucky 5 times, thats all.

Also, Knee didnt whine when he lost, or made a video in which he calls them braindead and portrait them with clown noses and outfits.
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Ooohh, you're feeling offended. Ok, ok, you proved u/f+3 series is unseeable.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
The only 'transition' that can be punished with Nina's d+4,1 or similar moves is b+3,3_d+3~3 and one more (I can't remember which one, db+3+4 maybe?). However, I (or anyone else, really) wouldn't call those moves 'transitions' since a transition implies I'm entering stance with the purpose of doing another move/action. Its more like punishing a launcher (well, that's actually what is).

If you can show me a high level match where RLX 4~3 gets backstepped successfully after HSP b+3 hitting close range then I'll concede that its a backsteppable mixup. If the move hits at far range then I wouldn't be surprised if a followup was backsteppable. I'll test it myself next time I get a chance as well.

uf+3 is a true mixup, I think Noodalls proved this way back in T6! However, the move is super slow. There is not a single frame setup for that move, even if I do a jab on hit (+8 at super close range) you can still easily sidestep or jab out the move. Also, because of how slow and linear the move is, its super hard to make a uf+3 setup on a tech rolling opponent to pressure them out of a tech roll (which is where slow moves can normally be used).

And yeah, I'm going to have to side with Luiz on this one, calling the characters braindead really is unfair. There are a lot of scrubby Capo players I admit, but there is scrubby players of every character (and really, every player is a scrub when they first start). But once you reach high levels and you want to get really good, not just decent, but really good, at Tekken (which is the level I'm at) you'll see just how much work it takes to make a strong Capo player. I play several hard-work characters (Hwoarang, Lei, Baek and Christie) and I have to say Capos are by far the most work. With most other characters you can just work out a normal standing game flowchart and look for the exceptions as they come along. Not the case with Capos since thier standing game is really limited, whereas thier strength comes in thier stances. RLX and HSP are not insta-win buttons like people somehow think they are, I have so many notes on pretty much every character I play against for things on which move hit me stance, what I can do to avoid said moves and how much damage I risk if I get hit or floated, etc, which moves into stance allow for what sort of mixups depending on range and frame advantage, etc. The amount of work to play a Capo well really is a lot.

Last edited by CaCarmen on Dec 15th, 2013 at 07:21

Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
If you can show me a high level match where RLX 4~3 gets backstepped successfully after HSP b+3 hitting close range then I'll concede that its a backsteppable mixup. If the move hits at far range then I wouldn't be surprised if a followup was backsteppable. I'll test it myself next time I get a chance as well.

As I said, if you're holding foward and get hit by HSP b+3 then it will hit at close range and you won't be able to backdash. But if you're holding back and take just the last hit of b+1,4~b HSP b+3 then you can backdash easily and this is how most people will be hit by this move.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
uf+3 is a true mixup, I think Noodalls proved this way back in T6!

I don't know about T6, but in TTT2 you can clearly see the difference between those two extensions. What do you think about the video I posted up there? Do you I think I just got lucky and guarded all those mids and lows?
Man, I wouldn't say it's super easy but sure it is not that hard at all, record these two moves and try to guard, simple as that. Don't care about something somebody said sometime ago, just try for yourself.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
calling the characters braindead really is unfair

Nah, the fact is that these characters help so much the player. Eddy/Christie have a lot of moves they can do mindlessly because they know they won't be punished by most players. They are really tricky characters and this provides wins to a player that doesn't know many aspects of the game(there is a capo player here in Brazil that punishes all -15, -16,-30 moves with throws and he always does well in tournaments) and this is not easy to do with other characters. But it's not only their fault, players should give them reasons to not play like that.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
With so many characters full of safe launchers in this game, and so many character with those generic hopkicks that are lightning quick (I watched Saint vs JDCR and Saint didnt punish any of the 4 hopkicks Armor King made), capos are the ones that can midlessly do moves cause they dont have to bother about punishment? Youre joking right?

How can you punish Kazuya's ff3? Or Nina uf4? Or Lars uf4? Or Ogre's u1+2? Or Bobs bb4? Or how can you punish all those grab launchers? Maybe you can duck them on reaction, cause you can see 9 frames, but not us mortals. Or how can you punish EWGF or cd3 from Devil jin? Those are the moves you can throw out randomly with no worries of beeing punished, you know why? Cause they actually can't be punished, even if the opponent is a True Tekken God.

Capos are braindead characters? You have to pick your spots, be creative to make a new transition to confuse your opponent, work on set-ups to get to your stances, read your opponent for some evading moves or CH. What do Mishimas have to think about? "Should I try a positive-on-block launcher now, or a little later?" LOL

More than that, you have to memorize moves for every situation. Not like a Mishima:
he's gonna tag in? Positive-on-block launcher.
He's gonna ss? Positive-on-block launcher.
He's turling? Positive-on-block launcher.
He's coming in my direction? Positive-on-block launcher.
His back is to the wall? Positive-on-block launcher or w! grab (wow, finally an option)
He's ducking a lot? Safe-on-block-mid launcher
He's in the ground? Safe-on-block-mid launcher

Wow, really tricky flowchart there.
LuizWsp
Virtuoso
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Besides, on your video you act like you just discovered the powder or something, but the recipe is valid for everysingle character in this game. Basically, what you said on the video is:

1 - React to stances.

That is valid for Steve, Anna, Ling, Jin, Lars, Alisa, Zafina, Koreans and everybody else who has stances. You can always react to stances, by either ssing, interrupting, backdashing, using crush moves, and as a last resort, guessing, cause no stance has guaranteed moves, and they are usually unsafe. The only exceptions are when they can get to the stances with a hit or evading the opponents moves.

2 - uf3 in not a mix up cause I blocked some in a row

Ok then

3 - It's hard to punish them.

Many other characters are hard to punish. 3~4 is hard to punish only to a few characters (less than half), but you always have an easy option to punish it, like Alisa's ws3,3 for more than 50 dmg or just to a delayed hopkick. Law's and Baek's stagger low moves are also hard to punish, for example. There are billions of other moves that need a specific punishment in this game, like Paul's deathfist or Devil Jin's-Tekken-Revolution-U4 that evades mids even at -8.

my point is, you're not bringing anything new here (except that uf3 is not a mix up ), it just looks like you care too much that someguy who doesnt study frames like you do wins more than you.

If the guy is winning without punishing the -30 moves, use -30 moves and break the following throws. It shouldnt be hard to someone who can react to a 9 frame mix up 5 times in a row. If the guy is still winning, dont blame the character. Out of all people, a Devil Jin user is the one who has less reasons to complain about in this game, since in no tier list I have seen him below the A+ tier (S-tier in 99% of them).

Last edited by LuizWsp on Dec 15th, 2013 at 17:00

CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Lian_X
As I said, if you're holding foward and get hit by HSP b+3 then it will hit at close range and you won't be able to backdash. But if you're holding back and take just the last hit of b+1,4~b HSP b+3 then you can backdash easily and this is how most people will be hit by this move.


This is why I don't record anything with my webcam, but this is what I found using Kazuya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DubZZEhikfE The setup is f+1+2 into HSP b+3 into RLX 4~3. I'm not holding forward at all with Kazuya at the beginning of the recording. Even if I get a full backdash out (which takes some getting used to the timing, which is why I backdash at the wrong time the first few times) I still can't backdash far enough away to cause the second kick to whiff. See if you have better luck.

I don't know about b+1,4 since I don't use it that much (I play mainly arcade and that move is slightly different in the arcade) but in setups like the one I mentioned RLX 4~3 is unavoidable. This all in practice mode, by the way. In a match even getting a backdash out in the right time is something that I imagine is super hard.

Originally posted by Lian_X
I don't know about T6, but in TTT2 you can clearly see the difference between those two extensions. What do you think about the video I posted up there? Do you I think I just got lucky and guarded all those mids and lows?
Man, I wouldn't say it's super easy but sure it is not that hard at all, record these two moves and try to guard, simple as that. Don't care about something somebody said sometime ago, just try for yourself.


I don't see the difference in this game (though I don't play much against other Capos as I'd like too), but I do know how linear and slow the move is (and how punishable it is if I guess right). But I don't think your video is proving much since

1) you're not blocking it 100% of the time, which makes me feel like you're guessing.
2) you're doing it practice mode, which means you're focusing on nothing but one single move.

A more convincing example (besides doing it in match and recording that) would be if you put the computer to do several things: 1 throws, 2 throws, Rodeo, db+3 (a seeable low by frames), uf+3, uf+3~d, uf+3,3 and uf+3,3+4 and then blocked it 100% of the time (if the difference is clear then it shouldn't be an issue to see it multiple times). Unfortunetly TT2 only lets you choose five options in defensive training mode. Either that or VS CPU training and see if you can block it.

But by far the most convincing way is to do it in match. No one is going to run in your face and do the move constantly. Here's a pretty realistic example from a classic tournament match (Knee vs. Misty, TC S6 finals) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0STpnXW1Fl0 In that match set Misty does (unless I counted correctly) seven uf+3s. One of them he doesn't finish the extension, three of them the first move hits Knee. Of the remaining three which Misty finishes the extension, two go through and one gets blocked. Seems unseeable to me. Next time you play against a good Capo in tournament, record the footage and put it on Youtube, If you can block uf+3 mixups 100% in match, then I'll concede that the move is seeable.

Originally posted by Lian_X
Nah, the fact is that these characters help so much the player. Eddy/Christie have a lot of moves they can do mindlessly because they know they won't be punished by most players. They are really tricky characters and this provides wins to a player that doesn't know many aspects of the game(there is a capo player here in Brazil that punishes all -15, -16,-30 moves with throws and he always does well in tournaments) and this is not easy to do with other characters. But it's not only their fault, players should give them reasons to not play like that.


That doesn't tell me anything other than:

1) That Capo player must have such a good offense that he just throw punishes launch punishable moves and STILL does well in tournament.
2) Brazil's average Tekken level must be really low that someone who doesn't even punish correctly does well in tournament there.

I can tell you playing in tournament and in arcade in China, Japan, Hong Kong and California that bad Capos don't get very far in any of those scenes.
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
Lian_X
1st Dan
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 17
From: Brazil
PSN: Lian_X6
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
I'm not holding forward at all with Kazuya at the beginning of the recording.

Yeah, you wasn't even holding back, what player keeps stand still in a match? In my video I put an example of HSP b+3, look at time 13m41s.

If you're holding back while take the HSP b+3, it has a pushback so you can backdash easily. I just recorded it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5q343m5lhE
Originally posted by CaCarmen
1) you're not blocking it 100% of the time, which makes me feel like you're guessing.
2) you're doing it practice mode, which means you're focusing on nothing but one single move.

1) So if I take a Snake Edge it means that this move is unseeable and everytime I guard was just a guess?
2) This is true, it's easier to do in practice mode than in a real match, but the thing is that IS POSSIBLE to guard in react the low extension. OMG, I still can't believe you guys are thinking this require inhuman reflexes.

I have some records guarding it in real match but I don't think it will prove anything because if I just guarded three or four times, that could be nothing more than good guesses.
I just kept guarding those moves during 1 minute and 30 seconds. That was 33 variations, I took the hit five times and still you're saying I guessed right 28 times.
Originally posted by CaCarmen
1) That Capo player must have such a good offense that he just throw punishes launch punishable moves and STILL does well in tournament.
2) Brazil's average Tekken level must be really low that someone who doesn't even punish correctly does well in tournament there.

Nice points, I must say despite this rivalry in the game we are friends and we just provoke and make fun each other. But well, he does have some good offense according to his gameplay style, but I think it's really unsafe, people just need to get used to side step, and punish properly.

There are some good players here, some time ago I was thinking "How this guy score wins against such good players? He punishes everything with throws and every low with ws+1,3, he presses buttons when at -5, -8, he does unsafe things all the time, arghhh".
So I started to study these character's moves and I realize that is not the players that are bad, they just don't know how to deal with Chreddy, and it's hard to deal with these characters because you need theory and practice, more than most of the cast.

Unfortunately I have not played against capos as much as I would like, LuizWsp deleted me from his psn(I'm too lucky it seems). And when I was starting to get used to side-step and punish those moves, my friend(that from tournaments) started to choose random characters when fighting against me, maybe he is keeping in secret his capos for next tournament, but it's fair, I won't complain.
Signature http://wtf.tekken.com/playercard/view/ps3/lian_x6
http://tekkenbr.com
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by LuizWsp
Also, I got curious about uf3 beeing 50/50 or not, and I did my research, and here it is:

I recorded both strings on a video, used a 33fps frame recorder and compared them both.

Mid:
http://youtu.be/gmEyO8iEt3s
Low:
http://youtu.be/1eAKCXD9mYQ

Here are both gifs:
http://gifti.me/i/jMTSBdnfY.gif
http://gifti.me/i/JdY309.gif

They don't start at the same time, so I used a trick to put them at the same time. I used hit analysis and fixed the frame in which Christie goes from blue to normal after getting hit by the uf3. Take a look at the transition, in the mid gif, it happens @45-46, and it happens @21-22 on the low gif:
Mid:
http://gifti.me/i/iRAIKp6.png
Low:
http://gifti.me/i/1BbXkmlSVz.png
That means Gifs are 24 delayed between each other and now we can compare them.

On frames 39/15, Eddy touches Christie. Let's call it frame 0.

Move goes on as Eddy recovers from uf3.

You can tell the strings apart on frame 4:
Frame 3 looks the same, but on frame 4 they are different (barely):
http://gifti.me/i/UBzEh3Z46N.png
http://gifti.me/i/GNgQjOC.png

Eddy finally hits Christie with either 3+4 (low) or 3 (mid) at the frame 9:
uf3,3:
http://gifti.me/i/4TR0m3z.png
uf3,3+4:
http://gifti.me/i/gpLRA7.png


9-4 = 5 frames. Since I used a 33fps recorder, every frame counts as 1,8 in Tekken (60/33 = 1.8). You multiply 5 for 1.8 you have 9 frames to react to the FAKE mix up.

If you can call this string, you can totally duck jabs on reaction.
i just tested that in reality ewgf is i5 when partially full buffered on reaction. And my testing methods were as properly designed to test this and just as reliable as yours.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Very lucky of course, I just proved it's a 50-50. You were lucky 5 times, thats all.
after 6 succesful blocks, 2 hits
after 6 succesful blocks, 1 hits
after 11 succesful blocks, 1 hits
after 5 succesful blocks, 1 hits

thats 1/2^11 possibility in a row. 0,00048828125 or 1 to 2047

28 out of 33, thats 85% success rate in a situation that you are forced to attempt to block low or standing that you cannot back away from is pretty tight. Lucky

Originally posted by CaCarmen
But I don't think your video is proving much since

1) you're not blocking it 100% of the time, which makes me feel like you're guessing.

Im always fascinated by this type of fallacy, how can such type ever exist. Ahem.
So you are saying that because someone has the knowledge how to do something and because he also has done the very same thing succesfully in the past in really impressive successrate, it means he can never fail at it. Because otherwise it is indication of "just guessing it right". I think theres certain level of beauty and elegance in this assumption that can only be reached in situations where you are so wrong that its not even funny but shocking. Perhaps this was intended to be a joke, a very high level joke that is not only funny, but beautiful in its perfect rejection of reason.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
2) you're doing it practice mode, which means you're focusing on nothing but one single move.

blablabla
to demonstrate that it might be possible to visually confirm and block the extension correctly, it has to be done in an actual match or something as silly. Sorry it doesnt work that way. It has been demonstrated that it might be possible for some people to block the extensions on reaction and that other people should look into it to test if it is true. Crying about how your feelings tell you that its wrong is noted and rejected.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Also, Knee didnt whine when he lost, or made a video in which he calls them braindead and portrait them with clown noses and outfits.
must've been a sick burn to get you all crazy or perhaps you always were crazy to begin with. It was funny. mid"crushing" is funny, getting hit by a launcher when you attempt to punish -10 with i10 is funny. Its also funny that even if you contest -10 move with the wrong move you can still get launched or at least knockdowned for it. You crying about how you're offended by a joke that highlights your preferred characters good properties is also funny. Its like you're the punchline to the video.
vittujee
Deity
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 650
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
uf+3 is a true mixup, I think Noodalls proved this way back in T6!
If I recall correct, noodalls proved that the difference between the mixup hitting you is 1 frame, making it effectively not option selectable. If option select was the only way of defending in this game this would also mean that it absolutely is a true mixup. However it does not do that if it can be visually confirmed which one comes out and even if it is not possible for everyone, it might be for some. There is a visual cue where doing low extension capo does seemingly crouch or at least go a bit lower, but no such thing is done when doing mid extension.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
However, the move is super slow. There is not a single frame setup for that move, even if I do a jab on hit (+8 at super close range) you can still easily sidestep or jab out the move. Also, because of how slow and linear the move is, its super hard to make a uf+3 setup on a tech rolling opponent to pressure them out of a tech roll (which is where slow moves can normally be used).
still does not mean that it never happens and being prepared to defend against is somehow a bad idea.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
And yeah, I'm going to have to side with Luiz on this one, calling the characters braindead really is unfair. There are a lot of scrubby Capo players I admit, but there is scrubby players of every character (and really, every player is a scrub when they first start). But once you reach high levels and you want to get really good, not just decent, but really good, at Tekken (which is the level I'm at) you'll see just how much work it takes to make a strong Capo player. I play several hard-work characters (Hwoarang, Lei, Baek and Christie) and I have to say Capos are by far the most work.
are you suggesting that players should not prepare how to defend against cheese because opponent will not use cheese when you know how to defend against it? You two are not really making a strong case for not being braindead.

Originally posted by CaCarmen
With most other characters you can just work out a normal standing game flowchart and look for the exceptions as they come along. Not the case with Capos since thier standing game is really limited, whereas thier strength comes in thier stances. RLX and HSP are not insta-win buttons like people somehow think they are, I have so many notes on pretty much every character I play against for things on which move hit me stance, what I can do to avoid said moves and how much damage I risk if I get hit or floated, etc, which moves into stance allow for what sort of mixups depending on range and frame advantage, etc. The amount of work to play a Capo well really is a lot.
being good at tekken is hard work. you imply that playing capo at higher level is harder work than most of the cast at higher level is noted and in this context completely ignored.

There exists braindead things you can do if your opponent does not know how to deal with it. This will hold true even at high level is someone is high level and does not know how to deal with capo's. And because the braindead things require fast reactions and sometimes complicated inputs theres a possibility of misinput or being late that still makes capo's do them. Perhaps not at the highest level, but not everyone who plays tekken plays at the highest level.

I cannot understand that anyone who actually plays capos would claim this to be false. Based on your usual replies I would imagine response being something like "but other characters!", but no im sorry that will be rejected. This is about anticapo strats, not "why capo's braindeadtraps are less braindead than mixing up ewgf with ewgf because its a true mixup apparently".

 All times are GMT. The time now is 21:44

Page Splits 123>
Moderator Tools
Forum Jump