Strings into sidestep

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A F0xy Grampa
6th Dan
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Has anybody actually found any setup to make 1,2/F3/B21 into SS 4 work on CH, or just being able to sidestep any sort of retaliation after the opponent is hit by each string.

Seems like the move is so slow to use away from the wall. However, I found it can be used as a tech trap against the wall. +5 on block or hit if the opponent tech rolls on wake up.
Fogelstrom
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
You can't do SS+4 as quickly after say 1,2 than just a regular SS+4 so I almost never use it, atleast for 1,2 since people pick it up so fast and just punish the startup of SS+4.

For f+3 and b+2,1 I see more usage but still, atleast the people I have played puts out a jab if they see the SS and stuffs my SS+4.
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pIchu
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
SS+4 is always interruptable from 1,2_f+3_b+2,1. You do sometimes avoid with the SS like you would any SS launch, but your opponent has to attack immediately after blocked the first attack. Otherwise you'll get CH'd.

It's still a great move... just be careful how you use it.
MiyusRibbons
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
i did the frames on it and it comes to 43 frames from ending your 1,2_f+3_b+2,1 till the SS+4 hits so even with the +7 from hitting f+3 (according to atp/ina) the opponent still has plenty of time to get a move in.

So there is no safe way to get a string from it but its still useful for positioning and if you see the opponent is on the defense it can't hurt to throw out the odd SS+4 to see how they react.
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Jason4579
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by MiyusRibbons
i did the frames on it and it comes to 43 frames from ending your 1,2_f+3_b+2,1 till the SS+4 hits so even with the +7 from hitting f+3 (according to atp/ina) the opponent still has plenty of time to get a move in.

So there is no safe way to get a string from it but its still useful for positioning and if you see the opponent is on the defense it can't hurt to throw out the odd SS+4 to see how they react.


You're forgetting to factor in Jun's recovery time after her string attacks. There will be a moment where both Jun AND her opponent are recovering before she recovers and is at an advantage. Start counting the frames from the moment Jun recovers.
MiyusRibbons
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
the point of these strings is there isn't a recovery so to speak, the strings transitions into a sidestep, the notation wouldn't be say f+3, SS+4 but really f+3~u_d4.

either way 43 frames is taking into account any frames after the move connects into the transition and the SS+4

Last edited by MiyusRibbons on Oct 2nd, 2012 at 22:03

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Jason4579
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
If there isn't a recovery, then wouldn't the transition just be like doing a regular SS? Meaning that you could just have looked at the frame data for her normal SS+4 instead?

That's where I'm stumped though. There's no way that her SS+4 is 43 frames.
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YoshikatYoko
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Jun's total frames to do SS+4 from any strings should be separated from what frame the opponent can interrupt her.

So to take into account, If opponent is attacking with a jab (i10) after f+3, It will come out at i17 because of +7. Remember, her u_d transitions are alot different than her regular sidestep. There's a specific frame you need to follow in her u_d so the SS moves will register, while in her normal SS you can do it as much faster. Also, regular SS has a bigger evade property than u_d transition. The key here is to register the u_d as fast as possible.

IF for example, you execute the fastest input for the u_d transition via f+3. f+3 is +7 (according to Miyus), and u_d is at least 15 frames, and SS+4 is around i19 (don't know, but I'm just taking examples). Opponent does a jab, i10.

Calculate them separately, not all together. From f+3, you've got 32 frames (assuming) to do the move itself - but since f+3 is +7 you minus it from 32. You get 25 frames to do SS+4 from f+3. Now, on the opponent side. Jabs are i10, and f+3 is +7 (meaning opponent is at -7). Add, and your opponent will get 17 frames to do a jab. 17 and 25 frames. Since the opponent is still faster, he will interrupt SS+4 - unless he uses i19 moves for a total of i26 frames then you can interrupt then with SS+4.

This all just an example. We don't know the exact recovery frames for f+3, the exact speed of the u_d transition, and the exact speed of SS+4. Give me all the data and we'll calculate for it.

Last edited by YoshikatYoko on Oct 3rd, 2012 at 15:57

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MiyusRibbons
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Basically what Yoshikat said is basically what i worked out... he just broke it down in length calculating each part in frames whereas i capped the command several times and counted out the frames of movement.

Jason i'm thinking you don't actually know the transition the OP was talking about. during 1,2_2,1_f+3_1+4 and i'm sure there are a few more, if you hit u_d within a certain frame period Jun does a sort of quick sidestep where she can enter her SS moves. As Yoshikat has mentioned the properties of this "sidedash" are a little different to a standard sidestep, it is a transition so technically you aren't finishing the first move before entering the "sidedash" meaning you lose the recovery period that you've been going on about however there is a slightly longer wait while you are "sidedashing" until can execute a SS move.

Comparing it to a normal sidestep where you can execute a move on the first frame of a sidestep i believe, you have the drawback of needing to recover from a move before being able to enter a movement command to get into the sidestep. Also length of the movement for a normal sidestep will put you around a lot more wider sweeping attacks whereas the "sidedash" will more or less just avoid linear attacks.

If your really wanting the complete frames for all of the "sidedashing" i can get a breakdown and if i can reacquire some video editing software i'll make a video.

edit:
Originally posted by Jason4579, Posted: Oct 3rd, 2012 04:46

is this really more important than sleep?
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Jason4579
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Sigh. I was being sarcastic over the inconsistencies in your data. YoshikatYoko has pretty nuch put this one to bed though (with a completely different end result may I add). All that's left to do now is calculate the exact frames that it takes her from the transition to be able to execute a SS move. It looks to be nearly twice as long as the time from when you can execute the moves after a regular SS.

Also, Miyus, I hardly think you have any right to judge how I spend my time. If you must know, I just came back from the US yesterday so I had rather bad Jetlag and needed something to pass the time.

EDIT: I just remembered why I first posted that you didn't factor in Jun's recovery time. If F+3 is indeed +7, then that it wen the move is performed just by itself, therefor the +7 is how many frames ahead Jun is when she's finished recovering. This in mind, the U_D transition cancels Jun's recovery, meaning that the actual +frames used in the calculation should be the frames that the opponent requires to recover fully from the moment F+3 hits. I suppose I should have said 'Jun's LACK of recovery time'. My bad.

Last edited by Jason4579 on Oct 3rd, 2012 at 22:21

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MadKatAsuka
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
I think the strings into sidestep become more effective the more your opponent knows Juns options, its still can be a guess but it can be useful in some cases.
I've been testing out b+2_1_u/d and it seems if your opponent is wise to the high "1" in the b+2_1 string and they try to interrupt with and iws move e.g iws 4 you can evade their whiff punish attempt with the step and hit them with a ss+2 from the stance step.
Not saying this is a solid option just that the option is there at least, because when I was testing it seemed timing specific and I haven't tested a lot of characters ws moves.
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Jason4579
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
I've actually dodged WS+4 when using 1+4~u_d quite a few times. Players think they can duck the third hit in 1+4,2 string and punish, but dodging to the right side can help make a lot of quick moves (WS+4) whiff.

It's not too useful, but if it works, it opens up the door for more mind games.
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rookie01
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
@jayson4579 it also happened to me too, quite a lot honestly. Its where i get my daily dose of CH ss4 into juggle, apparently some people are just too impatient, ducking whenever they see 1+4 string then ws punish. And thats when the CH fun begins.

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