WTF! How can Chreddy have this? Feels Broken :(

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FoxSteve
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1586
From: South Africa
PSN: hotshot-sensei
XBL: hotshot sensei
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Sup Chreddies -

I've got one of Thailand's top players staying here in Cape Town with me and he mains Chreddy Cappo.

We've come across this move...

b+1,4~Options

It's 14F speed...
It's Safe
It has decent range, (it's not like super short range or something)
on CH which can be hit confirmed easily enough it leads to 128Dmg with Tag Assault (No Wall and Easy/Average Combo for Chreddy players)
If it's Blocked there is still a chance for a Mix Up into Helicopter Kicks/Unbreakable Throw/Slippery Kicks and virtually anything else you can do from HS Stance...

You can't jab_df1_SS_SW_Crouch after blocking b+1,4 otherwise Helicopters will beat you/wall splat you... and if you stand and block then you're looking at an Unbreakable Throw or a Full Combo from Slippery kicks.

You can side walk this move SWR - but even on Whiff if Chreddy does b+1,4~Helicopter then it kills your Side Walk.

The silliest thing about this move imo though is even if you do manage to Side Walk b+1,4 because Helicopter Kicks weren't used to kill your Side Walk... you don't actually get NEARLY the amount of reward back as Chreddy would get if the move was landed.

Potentially 128Dmg vs Steve getting an early ff+2~B! on a Back Turned Chreddy and a Sonic Fang (before Chreddy Falls to the floor or Rolls away which would remove the chance to B!)
(Also If you use ff+2 B!~Tag Assault to give the Opponent Rage and Lose your Red Life for a pissy BT Combo it hardly seems worth the pay off.)

With Hwoarang, a BT Hand Standing Floaty Chreddy isn't going to take a lot of Damage for guessing correctly and SW'ing the b+1,4~Non Helicopter.
Hwoarang also doesn't really float very well before Chreddy can move/roll away etc if you did want to try and B!.
So you're looking at a ff+3's worth of damage or something else that won't hit for a 130% Scaling damage but rather a 70% Scaling damage hit because Hand Stand/Rolling is technically a float position.
Realistically, with Hwoarang you wouldn't even really get the chance to 3+4 ff+3 B! - you'd probably have to try and use the Generic B! 1+2+5 (maybe, which in general also isn't that fast) if you wanted to try and Tag Assault some damage..... but lose Red Life and give Rage to Chreddy for another pissy BT combo.

What's worse? EVEN if you do force Christie/Eddy to Tag Out ------ then Christie/Eddy Tag In with all their life AND they have the same f u c k i n g move. hehe

See video of Steve's Life Bar after eating a CH b+1,4~d+3+4 at the start of the round..... it's not a hard combo or a hard CH confirm according to Di, our awesome Thai guest...

If anyone is looking for me... I'll be in the bathtub, slitting my wrists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLgj...eature=youtu.be
Signature Steve Fox BR Combo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnN8b9ELEZQ
Steve~Hwoarang Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR90rkT6VTw
Hwoarang~Steve Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqzeBf7ZTYI
subt-L
STRONGSTYLE Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3263
From: USA California
PSN: subt-L
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
yeah, i just found this out a second around too. should be 130 on ch:

ch b+1,4,3+4 rlx 2, b+3,3, rlx 2,4 TA ss 4,3 > ss 4~3

you cannot ch hit confirm the b+1 into 4, but you can sure do it as a whole. and as you said, the 4 part of the move isn't bad at all. helicopter should beat out most retaliation, d+3 will be a good safe mid option, though your lows aren't all that great and the throw is fairly obvious now, but fuck it.

130 damage.

i don't think its half way as unbeatable as you are making it seem though. just get used to seeing the throw on block and the other options aren't scary, and slippery kicks just doesn't seem feasible if you have any reaction speed what so ever. its really damn good, but it doesn't track, only works on ch, mixups aren't all that great afterwards since you can react to most of them, and yeah...

130 damage tho...
Signature subtle (suh tul)- adj
1: So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive; Difficult to understand.
2: Able to make fine distinctions
3:Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever; Crafty or sly; devious; Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way
FoxSteve
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1586
From: South Africa
PSN: hotshot-sensei
XBL: hotshot sensei
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Ok - so taking into account as you say that the options are not insane after the b+1,4 and one should just be able to re-act to the mix ups...
wtf is a 130Dmg combo with no walls from a safe, hit confirm'able @ HS transition point, with even if not the BEST mix ups, mix ups an option doing in the game?

And why is the damn thing 14F?! Why does it have decent/better range than their i14F d/f+2 CH launching and tracking Elbow?

where the fuck is my life bar?

lol

imo - it's an over powered safe, fast poke that can destroy your soul.

convince me she/they need it Subt-L ... I'm still in the tub... ^_^

Last edited by FoxSteve on Sep 17th, 2012 at 14:16

Signature Steve Fox BR Combo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnN8b9ELEZQ
Steve~Hwoarang Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR90rkT6VTw
Hwoarang~Steve Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqzeBf7ZTYI
numotd
Shihan
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 103
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by subt-L
yeah, i just found this out a second around too. should be 130 on ch:

ch b+1,4,3+4 rlx 2, b+3,3, rlx 2,4 TA ss 4,3 > ss 4~3

you cannot ch hit confirm the b+1 into 4, but you can sure do it as a whole. and as you said, the 4 part of the move isn't bad at all. helicopter should beat out most retaliation, d+3 will be a good safe mid option, though your lows aren't all that great and the throw is fairly obvious now, but fuck it.

130 damage.

i don't think its half way as unbeatable as you are making it seem though. just get used to seeing the throw on block and the other options aren't scary, and slippery kicks just doesn't seem feasible if you have any reaction speed what so ever. its really damn good, but it doesn't track, only works on ch, mixups aren't all that great afterwards since you can react to most of them, and yeah...

130 damage tho...



In the right hands, it is broken hehe

i beg to differ on "no great mix up afterward since you can react to most of them"



PS. this is Kamileon88 new account + the thailand player




Sup Chreddies -

I've got one of Thailand's top players staying here in Cape Town with me and he mains Chreddy Cappo.

We've come across this move...

b+1,4~Options

It's 14F speed...
It's Safe
It has decent range, (it's not like super short range or something)
on CH which can be hit confirmed easily enough it leads to 128Dmg with Tag Assault (No Wall and Easy/Average Combo for Chreddy players)
If it's Blocked there is still a chance for a Mix Up into Helicopter Kicks/Unbreakable Throw/Slippery Kicks and virtually anything else you can do from HS Stance...

You can't jab_df1_SS_SW_Crouch after blocking b+1,4 otherwise Helicopters will beat you/wall splat you... and if you stand and block then you're looking at an Unbreakable Throw or a Full Combo from Slippery kicks.

You can side walk this move SWR - but even on Whiff if Chreddy does b+1,4~Helicopter then it kills your Side Walk.

The silliest thing about this move imo though is even if you do manage to Side Walk b+1,4 because Helicopter Kicks weren't used to kill your Side Walk... you don't actually get NEARLY the amount of reward back as Chreddy would get if the move was landed.

Potentially 128Dmg vs Steve getting an early ff+2~B! on a Back Turned Chreddy and a Sonic Fang (before Chreddy Falls to the floor or Rolls away which would remove the chance to B!)
(Also If you use ff+2 B!~Tag Assault to give the Opponent Rage and Lose your Red Life for a pissy BT Combo it hardly seems worth the pay off.)

With Hwoarang, a BT Hand Standing Floaty Chreddy isn't going to take a lot of Damage for guessing correctly and SW'ing the b+1,4~Non Helicopter.
Hwoarang also doesn't really float very well before Chreddy can move/roll away etc if you did want to try and B!.
So you're looking at a ff+3's worth of damage or something else that won't hit for a 130% Scaling damage but rather a 70% Scaling damage hit because Hand Stand/Rolling is technically a float position.
Realistically, with Hwoarang you wouldn't even really get the chance to 3+4 ff+3 B! - you'd probably have to try and use the Generic B! 1+2+5 (maybe, which in general also isn't that fast) if you wanted to try and Tag Assault some damage..... but lose Red Life and give Rage to Chreddy for another pissy BT combo.

What's worse? EVEN if you do force Christie/Eddy to Tag Out ------ then Christie/Eddy Tag In with all their life AND they have the same f u c k i n g move. hehe

See video of Steve's Life Bar after eating a CH b+1,4~d+3+4 at the start of the round..... it's not a hard combo or a hard CH confirm according to Di, our awesome Thai guest...

If anyone is looking for me... I'll be in the bathtub, slitting my wrists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLgj...eature=youtu.be


The hit confirm is not too easy, but it's not impossible either...it's similar to Dragunov's CH 1,2,1 / b+4,2,1 and df+1,4 (which luckily i play Dragunov as well )

Last edited by numotd on Sep 17th, 2012 at 13:18

FoxSteve
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1586
From: South Africa
PSN: hotshot-sensei
XBL: hotshot sensei
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
i HATE u Di

^_^
Signature Steve Fox BR Combo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnN8b9ELEZQ
Steve~Hwoarang Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR90rkT6VTw
Hwoarang~Steve Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqzeBf7ZTYI
subt-L
STRONGSTYLE Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3263
From: USA California
PSN: subt-L
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by FoxSteve
Ok - so taking into account as you say that the options are not insane after the b+1,4 and one should just be able to re-act to the mix ups...
wtf is a 130Dmg combo with no walls from a safe, hit confirm'able @ HS transition point, with even if not the BEST mix ups, mix ups an option doing in the game?

And why is the damn thing 14F?! Why does it have decent/better range than their i14F d/f+2 CH launching and tracking Elbow?

where the fuck is my life bar?

lol

imo - it's an over powered safe, fast poke than can destroy your soul.

convince me she/they need it Subt-L ... I'm still in the tub... ^_^
yeah, i'm not trying to convince you that they need it, that's for damn sure. that shit is busted.

someone brought it up around the beta phase wondering if it was possible, and i kind of discounted it. the damage output would have been retarded extreme and no smart designer would give you a tool that takes 75-80% life on a simple ch confirm.

well, fuck it, namco proves me wrong in multiple ways in one foul swoop.

mixups are still pretty easy to see, but you need to get people to stop attacking after the b+1,4~b. problem with the b+1,4~b is that you can't get the slippery kicks afterwards. you can still hit confirm into hsp 4 (for still amazing damage) but its not 130. still great against the wall.

b+1,4 by itself is unsafe (-18 according to noodalls frame data), but the ~b leaves you at an advantage, which i'm sure most capo players should know just by instinct. so if you get the b+1,4 blocked, you'll obviously want to be holding b, or else get launched.

so if you just react hsp 4, and they block, you'll be able to get floated by most 11-13 frame mids and d+1's. slippery kicks are very much seeable, just ask anyone i play against. hsp throw is harder to see, but most people i play are ducking optioning it no matter how i'm disguising it. so that leaves you with flop punch and hsp d+3_4 as a decent respectable speed attacks, and if you can keep them from pressing buttons, hsp 3 and b+3 open up. b+3 should really be your only serious mixup low out of it, and doing slippery kicks as a mixup seems counter productive to the whole "safe mid ch hit confirmable" part if you're just going to let it rip anyways.

but to each his own. it'll be less effective assuming that this doesn't get patched out and people start having to key into this, and i'm sure the throw and slippery kicks mixups will be spied out very easily long term just based on the players i have had to deal with.
Signature subtle (suh tul)- adj
1: So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive; Difficult to understand.
2: Able to make fine distinctions
3:Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever; Crafty or sly; devious; Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
b+1 input on F0
- 4 can be input until F15
- 3+4 after 4 can be input until F45
- ~b (e.g. b+1,4~b) input must be done on F44 (can be held of course)
- 4 e.g. b+1,4~b HSP 4) input can be done on F53-60 (F53-57 being buffer window for F58). Surprisingly consistent. Later inputs can be more fallible to range issues.
subt-L
STRONGSTYLE Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3263
From: USA California
PSN: subt-L
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
also something to note about this, not so great against big characters. first kick of slippery kicks will whiff. but big characters seem to give capos alot of trouble with combo consistency in this game as almost a general statement.
Signature subtle (suh tul)- adj
1: So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive; Difficult to understand.
2: Able to make fine distinctions
3:Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever; Crafty or sly; devious; Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Some other notes, testing Capo vs Capo.

I initially thought you could probably throw something out like df+2 or hopkick to get out of slipper kicks/throw mixup, and if you're not near a wall, just cop the HSP 4 mixup (or occasionally block it and punish).

Some things to note though (nothing groundbreaking)
- HSP throw is considered standing from F1.
- HSP can't be CH
- slippery kicks are airborn for at least some of their frames (i13-20 interrupts will float them).
numotd
Shihan
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 103
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by subt-L
yeah, i'm not trying to convince you that they need it, that's for damn sure. that shit is busted.

someone brought it up around the beta phase wondering if it was possible, and i kind of discounted it. the damage output would have been retarded extreme and no smart designer would give you a tool that takes 75-80% life on a simple ch confirm.

well, fuck it, namco proves me wrong in multiple ways in one foul swoop.

mixups are still pretty easy to see, but you need to get people to stop attacking after the b+1,4~b. problem with the b+1,4~b is that you can't get the slippery kicks afterwards. you can still hit confirm into hsp 4 (for still amazing damage) but its not 130. still great against the wall.

b+1,4 by itself is unsafe (-18 according to noodalls frame data), but the ~b leaves you at an advantage, which i'm sure most capo players should know just by instinct. so if you get the b+1,4 blocked, you'll obviously want to be holding b, or else get launched.

so if you just react hsp 4, and they block, you'll be able to get floated by most 11-13 frame mids and d+1's. slippery kicks are very much seeable, just ask anyone i play against. hsp throw is harder to see, but most people i play are ducking optioning it no matter how i'm disguising it. so that leaves you with flop punch and hsp d+3_4 as a decent respectable speed attacks, and if you can keep them from pressing buttons, hsp 3 and b+3 open up. b+3 should really be your only serious mixup low out of it, and doing slippery kicks as a mixup seems counter productive to the whole "safe mid ch hit confirmable" part if you're just going to let it rip anyways.

but to each his own. it'll be less effective assuming that this doesn't get patched out and people start having to key into this, and i'm sure the throw and slippery kicks mixups will be spied out very easily long term just based on the players i have had to deal with.




Hsp 4,3+4 beats i13 frame pick up and it's not really seeable because you have to do a 13frame pick up soon after Hsp 4 or Chreddy can tilt out of Hsp and be "safe"...

Slippery kicks are easy to spot when you watch the gameplay or spectating...but during gameplay...it's a bit hard to see because you are constantly thinking what to do and watching your opponent...28frames isn't too slow either

if you can HC b+1,4,3+4...i dont see why would we ever do b+1,4~b hsp 4...-_-"

No offense but I dont see why you think b+1,4 is easy to anticipate or see what options can come out...there's also other optionssssss other than b+1,4~b hsp 4 or b+1,4,3+4 etc...it's like ppl saying some character sucks on paper but when movement and actual game play is put into it...they dont suck like ppl say...b+1,4 NCc is one of the best upgrade chreddy ever got if you think it's easy to anticipate and easy to see...dont use it then -_-"

An easy way to see how to use b+1,4 is like how b+3,3 works...you don't just spam b+3,3...you hit confirm the b+3 on CH...same goes with b+1...so unless b+1 is going to be CH dont ALWAYS throw out b+1,4


Yeah big characters do give capos problems especially rlx 4~3


No hate against you subt-L...i'm just speaking from my testing and experience...my opponent really know how to kill Chreddy pretty well...especially my brother, juie-storm (Nina Lars), foxsteve, etc -_-"

Last edited by numotd on Sep 17th, 2012 at 15:38

FoxSteve
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1586
From: South Africa
PSN: hotshot-sensei
XBL: hotshot sensei
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
This is good info, thank you Subs

Namco, someone, please fix this ^_^

Edit: Oh shit so many replies already - thanks everyone!
Signature Steve Fox BR Combo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnN8b9ELEZQ
Steve~Hwoarang Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR90rkT6VTw
Hwoarang~Steve Staple Combos TTT2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqzeBf7ZTYI
Islaw[FTW]
Champion
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 252
From: Philippines
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
what i think, other characters have their own useful moves not to mention they have tons than the capos and we have only few not to mention most of them are high risks but low reward moves. capos got nerfed badly in this game but having this move is just one of our strengths. and I've been using this move even before the console release most of the time but none of my opponents have seen this broken. but if it really needs to be fixed just take out that NCC between b+1 and 4.
Signature HYPER!?~Islaw
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subt-L
STRONGSTYLE Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3263
From: USA California
PSN: subt-L
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
Some other notes, testing Capo vs Capo.

I initially thought you could probably throw something out like df+2 or hopkick to get out of slipper kicks/throw mixup, and if you're not near a wall, just cop the HSP 4 mixup (or occasionally block it and punish).

Some things to note though (nothing groundbreaking)
- HSP throw is considered standing from F1.
- HSP can't be CH
- slippery kicks are airborn for at least some of their frames (i13-20 interrupts will float them).

yeah, i think there's something about hopkicking in general against hsp that i think might be worth it in general, even against the wall. best i can imagine you'd get would be hsp 4,3+4 which would still be inconsistent. all other options (even at at +1) should lose to hop kick except maybe d+3_4 and tilting or not holding ~b.

but yeah, enough anti-shit. lets get some frame traps going....
Signature subtle (suh tul)- adj
1: So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive; Difficult to understand.
2: Able to make fine distinctions
3:Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever; Crafty or sly; devious; Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way
Ayos Mishima
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1143
From: USA Texas
PSN: Ron_Vong
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Capos need this! Everyone else gets broke shit except us. So can anyone suggest some setups or frame traps to use this? I'm thinking use it right after d+3~4 hits or ss+4. I find it successful when people are rushing me.
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subt-L
STRONGSTYLE Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3263
From: USA California
PSN: subt-L
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
d+3~4 is +4, so it should beat out anything but jabs (since d+3~4 doesn't force crouch anymore)

it would be amazing if it did force crouch though.
Signature subtle (suh tul)- adj
1: So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive; Difficult to understand.
2: Able to make fine distinctions
3:Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever; Crafty or sly; devious; Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way
numotd
Shihan
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 103
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by subt-L
d+3~4 is +4, so it should beat out anything but jabs (since d+3~4 doesn't force crouch anymore)

it would be amazing if it did force crouch though.


i thought d+3~4 is now -2 on hit or +1 on hit (it was -2 before ttt2u). Is it confirmed that it's +4 like before?
subt-L
STRONGSTYLE Director
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3263
From: USA California
PSN: subt-L
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
ah, my bad it was +3 according to noodalls

d+3~4 21 -13 3 3
Signature subtle (suh tul)- adj
1: So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive; Difficult to understand.
2: Able to make fine distinctions
3:Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever; Crafty or sly; devious; Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way
numotd
Shihan
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 103
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by subt-L
ah, my bad it was +3 according to noodalls

d+3~4 21 -13 3 3


+3? that's not bad i guess
ENHEAS
Virtuoso
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 221
From: Italy
PSN: ENHEAS_TK
XBL: no x box
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't think b14 is a broken tool. It is VERY good of course, but not broken imo.

if you put it in the contest of all the other characters, this game in wich spacing is a key to win, and that Eddy CAN'T STEP, this move is pretty damn good but not that exaggerated to me.

I believe it's a way to keep opponent away from rushing down on you every time. Especially with Christie who is so small now.

Think about all Hwoarang options vs Eddy now that Hwo has d3,4 natural hit and all the mixups you're forced to swallow because you can't step out of them, plus Flamingo 8 frame kicks that will counter Eddy ws punishers easy even if you guess right and duck..

Steve has f3,1 evading safe juggle starter (our DevilNin told us about it a couple of days ago)

Rlx 4-3 is just a simple low for Bears and True Ogre, since Eddy cannot connect anything..

etc etc

Thank Namco now we Chreddy players can face Bobs knowing that we've a chance to win!
Tekken Kids
Jesus Penis
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1589
From: USA Washington
PSN: eDDIEBOYMANG
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
i dont think its broken. you have to fully commit to the 4 to get garaunteed 3+4. and while in HSP, you have the risk of getting float juggled. kinda sucks for the opponent tho becuase if they block they have to guess to punish or get hit by helicopter... but im not complaining lol
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