Thoughts on the new unblockable shenanegans
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What do you think?
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Amazing, keep it.
4 12.90%
Garbage, get rid of it.
25 80.65%
Don't care either way.
2 6.45%
31 Votes 100%
3L1
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Hwoarang's LFS 1+4 is causing quite a stir. what do you think about it?

Here's a video that displays a lot of the possibilities:


Impressive dmg w/ bob


post up any other good video examples you find

Last edited by 3L1 on Jan 7th, 2012 at 22:55

Inboardlucas
5th Dan
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
i think its funny that hwoarang is barely an A tier with this unblockable stuff. since its so good i wonder how much he would drop with it removed lol. anyways it should be fixed but i hope he gets a few more buffs to compensate
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No Mercy
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
It all depends on how this is presented to the public crowd.
Of course based on a video showcase like this one, the most attracted and focus point is the high damage dealt with Hwoarang's unblockable. But if you actually have watched the full games(available on Nico) you will see it's Bryan's combo started and bounce move that is the trigger which makes this looks very easy and scary.
Don't get me wrong, the execution is easy indeed and I agree Hwoarang's unblockable is doing a lot of damages for a 1 timer, specially when in a juggle where the damage is already scaled down. But the really astonishing part is the 70% damage on a tech roll trap, which is just purely a setup. That's why it's called a trap and I don't see anything wrong with that.
But of course people will start complaining and whining about anything that seems to be out of the ordinary. This is part of human nature.
Guc11
Nonomori
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From: Hungary
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Like 3L1 said in AvoidingThePuddle, this will be fixed.
In its current state, I have no clue how will they do that.

Last edited by Guc11 on Jan 3rd, 2012 at 14:05

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SSJ-Luffy
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Nerf damage from 94 to maximum 60, remove the slight tracking properties or both...
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Tool God
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
No need to fix it. It's not broken. The damage on the juggle isn't like it's 100% and it seems like the standard damage dealt for most people's juggles anyway, and if you get hit with the tech trap, that's your problem. Learn to NOT mash buttons during this juggle.
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3L1
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Personally I'm worried about 2 things with this.

1. It could breed a generation of players that will think hwoarang is a juggle-only character which means less entertaining match vids and even more hate from the community at large.
2. It changes the game to a tool-oriented game. It means that instead of worrying about things like team synergy and, y'know, skill, you can pick characters for one or two things and base your game around baiting them out. I want this game to be the skilled marvel, not the boring marvel.

I say fix it but if it doesn't happen then I'll be ok with it. It's not that far out of character really, don't guess wrong.

Originally quoted by Guc11
Like 3L1 said in AvoidingThePuddle, this will be fixed.
In its current state, I have no clue how will they do that.

What about starscream's solution? make it so that you don't get control of your other character until the move animation is over. You could do it for all unblockables I'm sure...
Failing that then nerf the dmg and remove the tracking.
Abigan2K
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3850
From: Philippines
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Tool God
No need to fix it. It's not broken. The damage on the juggle isn't like it's 100% and it seems like the standard damage dealt for most people's juggles anyway, and if you get hit with the tech trap, that's your problem. Learn to NOT mash buttons during this juggle.


please show me other staples without tight execution (ex: kaz d/f+2 ewgf) that can do close to 60%~70% "standard damage", you'd be lucky if you could even get past 50%
Angelo1
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Tool God
No need to fix it. It's not broken. The damage on the juggle isn't like it's 100% and it seems like the standard damage dealt for most people's juggles anyway, and if you get hit with the tech trap, that's your problem. Learn to NOT mash buttons during this juggle.


The staple is 50~60% damage.... But now the mix-up:

1. Delayed db2 for a reset allowinf damage scaling + more hits post unblockable
2. Jump over tech trap, it hits the tech roller and gives bryan a juggle that leads to the unblockable juggle.... So if the unblockable hits, you'll get the unblockable juggle staple. How is this not broken?

Staying down isn't really an option. Broken as hell believe me. He's considered S-tier..
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No Mercy
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Angelo1
The staple is 50~60% damage.... But now the mix-up:

1. Delayed db2 for a reset allowinf damage scaling + more hits post unblockable
2. Jump over tech trap, it hits the tech roller and gives bryan a juggle that leads to the unblockable juggle.... So if the unblockable hits, you'll get the unblockable juggle staple. How is this not broken?

Staying down isn't really an option. Broken as hell believe me. He's considered S-tier..


Your second point is not valid. True the techroll trap looks amazing and gives the opportunity to hit 2 x unblockables. But that's the whole purpose of catching techroll, which makes the oki game more interesting and increases the intensity of the game flow.

On the other hand, 1 techroll trap will cost you a round is a bit exaggerated. But not to the point to be called broken.
If you get hit by it, you will sure remember not to fall for it again.
Again, once everyone gets used to it and sees it more often, they will eventually not fall for it.

But I agree about the concerns that 3L1 brought up which will cause negative side aspects about this character. Very good points.
Cynnik
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Make the UB spike down rather than allowing to continue the combo with extra hits... it does half life as is.

As for the tech trap... don't tech.
Dilly
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Cynnik
Make the UB spike down rather than allowing to continue the combo with extra hits... it does half life as is.

As for the tech trap... don't tech.


If you don't tech it's a free reset... There is NO guessing required to make this trap work on the attackers side, since they have full control of a character while Hwo charges up. That's what makes it broken, they can attempt the reset and hwo STILL hits with the unblockable if the reset fails. You can literally try BOTH at the same time.

Only logical way out of it is to lose all your red bar and netsu to tag-crash.
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Ramaady
5th Dan
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
i don't think it's Broken at all..
why not try to tech ((after)) hwo just finishes his unblockable???
hwo user will be forced not to use tech trap... check the first video at time 6:29 ..

the only issue remaining is the effortless incredible damage without wall!...it should be nerfed!
TheDinosaur
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Dilly
If you don't tech it's a free reset... There is NO guessing required to make this trap work on the attackers side, since they have full control of a character while Hwo charges up. That's what makes it broken, they can attempt the reset and hwo STILL hits with the unblockable if the reset fails. You can literally try BOTH at the same time.

Only logical way out of it is to lose all your red bar and netsu to tag-crash.


but that's bad ass! how can you have a setup that eventually organically becomes a snap back, without ever actually using a snap back mechanism? that's actually pretty unique and fun and very un-T6/TTT2. considering how much damage is sacrificed, losing red bar / netsu doesn't really matter

Cynnik - remember you can combo off spikes in tag assault dude. all the ub spiking would do would be to make the combos a bit more specific.
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Abigan2K
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Dilly
If you don't tech it's a free reset... There is NO guessing required to make this trap work on the attackers side, since they have full control of a character while Hwo charges up. That's what makes it broken, they can attempt the reset and hwo STILL hits with the unblockable if the reset fails. You can literally try BOTH at the same time.

Only logical way out of it is to lose all your red bar and netsu to tag-crash.


yes this is the part that not many truly understands.. the only way out is tagcrash which effectively makes you rageless as long as you get comboed

and pls dont argue "dont get launched" because thats f'n impossible
Dilly
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by TheDinosaur
but that's bad ass! how can you have a setup that eventually organically becomes a snap back, without ever actually using a snap back mechanism? that's actually pretty unique and fun and very un-T6/TTT2. considering how much damage is sacrificed, losing red bar / netsu doesn't really matter

Cynnik - remember you can combo off spikes in tag assault dude. all the ub spiking would do would be to make the combos a bit more specific.


Two problems with tag crashing in this situation...

1.) If the tag crash whiffs Hwo, the newly tagged in character eats the unblockable.
2.) If the other character side-steps, the tag crash whiffs them and he gets a combo on the tagged in partner, leading right back to the unblockable trap again!

Even the tag crash isn't a guaranteed way out of the situation. You are VERY likely to be dead after one combo against this. There's actually a few players doing nothing but spamming unsafe launchers and are winning most of their matches JUST BECAUSE of this set up. That, my friend, is a problem.

I know how much you want to see characters with things unlike what anyone else has, but this is like an even more painful version of Bryan's t5 w! 1,2,1~d/f+3 shenanigans.
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Demoyon
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From: Philippines
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Dilly
If you don't tech it's a free reset... There is NO guessing required to make this trap work on the attackers side, since they have full control of a character while Hwo charges up. That's what makes it broken, they can attempt the reset and hwo STILL hits with the unblockable if the reset fails. You can literally try BOTH at the same time.

Only logical way out of it is to lose all your red bar and netsu to tag-crash.
This.

Imagine this scenario: Bry/Hwo team lands a launcher into the Killing Hawk setup. Bryan walks over and does db+2 for the reset.

Scenario A: opponent does not tech
End result: db+2 picks up for reset, opponent eats the unblockable, Bryan follows up with post-reset juggle (1, b+3~f,4,1,2) for 80%.

Scenario B: opponent techs
End result: db+2 whiffs, opponent eats the unblockable for full damage, total damage taken is at around 85%.

The db+2 reset option does 80% damage MINIMUM. This is a problem.
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Da Stunna
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#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Well if it's unavoidable for the person on the receiving end, get rid of that shit.

It just makes shit boring and the game ends up more juggle oriented than it needs to be. It's cool to see an UB that's actually useful for once, but if it means that everyone is going to be picking Hwoarang just for some BS set-up that's more like an 100/0 than a 50/50.
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No Mercy
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#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Demoyon
This.

Imagine this scenario: Bry/Hwo team lands a launcher into the Killing Hawk setup. Bryan walks over and does db+2 for the reset.

Scenario A: opponent does not tech
End result: db+2 picks up for reset, opponent eats the unblockable, Bryan follows up with post-reset juggle (1, b+3~f,4,1,2) for 80%.

Scenario B: opponent techs
End result: db+2 whiffs, opponent eats the unblockable for full damage, total damage taken is at around 85%.

The db+2 reset option does 80% damage MINIMUM. This is a problem.



There is no reset possible if no techroll is performed by the opponent.

A: Hwo b+3~5, Bry b+1~5, Hwo 3+4, f+3, 1+4~5, Bry db+2 [Hwo UB hits] then Bry finishes off juggle.
This is all 1 entire juggle. Not unterruptible. No techroll involved or even possible.

B: Hwo b+3~5, Bry b+1~5, Hwo 3+4, f+3, 1+4~5, Bry jumps over...
- if opponent techroll, Hwo UB hits as juggle starter, Bry b+1~5, Hwo 3+4, f+3, 1+4~5, same patern repeats.
- if opponent does NOT techroll, Hwo UB does NOT hit, end of juggle.
However, the latter gives Bryan an oki advantage, but nothing is guaranteed at this point. It's guessing game.

That's why it's called a techroll trap. if you fall for it. But avoidable.

How is that broken???

So in a nutshell, do NOT ever techroll in this situation.

Last edited by No Mercy on Jan 8th, 2012 at 07:21

Demoyon
prisoner of desires
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#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by No Mercy
There is no reset possible if no techroll is performed by the opponent.

A: Hwo b+3~5, Bry b+1~5, Hwo 3+4, f+3, 1+4~5, Bry db+2 [Hwo UB hits] then Bry finishes off juggle.
This is all 1 entire juggle. Not unterruptible. No techroll involved or even possible.

B: Hwo b+3~5, Bry b+1~5, Hwo 3+4, f+3, 1+4~5, Bry jumps over...
- if opponent techroll, Hwo UB hits as juggle starter, Bry b+1~5, Hwo 3+4, f+3, 1+4~5, same patern repeats.
- if opponent does NOT techroll, Hwo UB does NOT hit, end of juggle.
However, the latter gives Bryan an oki advantage, but nothing is guaranteed at this point. It's guessing game.

That's why it's called a techroll trap. if you fall for it. But avoidable.

How is that broken???

So in a nutshell, do NOT ever techroll in this situation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygYEcchhkpw

Scenario A (no tech): 4:12 - Bry/Hwo fails to do the post-reset, but the UB still hits.
Scenario B (tech): 1:40 - the UB still hits.

Play the game first, then tell me this isn't broken.
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