Lei Wulong General Discussion

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bojack13
5th Dan
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 56
From: United States
#21 “Quote” Edit Post
So how do you Lei players survive against extremely aggressive opponents? Lei's stance changes are great for mind games and seem to work well against patient opponents who try and wait until they know you're open for a counter. But for aggressive opponents who just wait for the slightest break in an attack string to counter and don't give a **** about what stance you might be changing to Lei's mind games seem to be useless and stance changes just make you free (if they even give you a chance to change stances).

Since these types of players don't give you a chance to play your mindgames or switch stances during attack strings or even when initially facing off, you'd have to rely on base/neutral Lei and his quickest attacks from there, right? Can TTT2 Lei survive like that or is he pretty much assed-out?
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Always rooting for Christie and other low tiers!
shauno
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2943
From: USA California
#22 “Quote” Edit Post
Study the frame data. Lei can create more priority situations for himself than you may think. Also, if an opponent is punishing a good setup you're using, anticipate that punisher and counter it with evasion or a block 'n punish of your own. Sidestepping more often in general should help as well, especially the double SS into SNK stance. Dodge to create whiffs in order to punish them by dropping into the ground stances, or with b+3+4 or b+1+4 (which also has a slight SS).

Plus, don't forget to use his dodging attacks in the right situation. That includes
u/f+3_4
u/f+3+4~
u/b+4
d/b+1+2
b+1+2
d/b+3_4
F+4~
f,f+3
4~3
d/b+3+4
f,f+3+4
b,b+1
running slash kick
various animal stance evasion attacks (like DRG 2_3, PAN 3, TGR 3, CRN u/f+4, etc),


BTW, in TTT2 you can add d/b+2 and b+2 to that list.

Look for decent CH opportunities. Lei has a few moves he can use to punish aggressive opponents when used properly, including
standing 4
DRG 4~
SNK 1~
CRN 3~
2,1_1,2
f,n+4~
Razor Rush

Try slowing down pitbulls with attack cancels (3,3~b or FC d/f+2,1,4~b) and bait them into getting hit with attack delays into punishment (2,1,<3+4 or d/f+2,2,<2, BT 4<3, Crane Dance, Razor Rush).

Capitalize on okizeme opportunities, even if that means doing a little less damage on your juggles. Stances are great during wake up, as is
FC d/f+2,1,4,
d+4,4
3~4~
d/b+3
d/f+1+2

Try to see if you are getting sidestepped yourself and protect yourself from being flanked. For instance, Steve's sway can evade a ton of Lei's followups after you block a string of his, but d/f+3 will punish it every time you know it is coming.

For Lei, there is no insta-win strategy that works against all characters or all players. He has to make use of a wide range of moves and tactics to do well.

Last edited by shauno on May 30th, 2012 at 18:12

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GreenLei2
7th Dan
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 82
#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by shauno
Study the frame data. Lei can create more priority situations for himself than you may think. Also, if an opponent is punishing a good setup you're using, anticipate that punisher and counter it with evasion or a block 'n punish of your own. Sidestepping more often in general should help as well, especially the double SS into SNK stance. Dodge to create whiffs in order to punish them by dropping into the ground stances, or with b+3+4 or b+1+4 (which also has a slight SS).

Plus, don't forget to use his dodging attacks in the right situation. That includes
u/f+3_4
u/f+3+4~
u/b+4
d/b+1+2
b+1+2
d/b+3_4
F+4~
f,f+3
4~3
d/b+3+4
f,f+3+4
b,b+1
running slash kick
various animal stance evasion attacks (like DRG 2_3, PAN 3, TGR 3, CRN u/f+4, etc),

BTW, in TTT2 you can add d/b+2 and b+2 to that list.


how would you use these moves when some poke heavy character like mig, nina, hwo, baek, stev, lars, law is in your face?

uf3 ok but you will get foated a lot
uf 3+4? slowest move ever crushes nothing. (against Laws or Lees slide they will hit you while in the air)
ub4 best keep out imo (next to 4), very useful
db1+2 death on whiff and unsafe, near wall ok
b1+2 bad risk reward
db4, db3 is good
f4 can be good against chars with lots of highs like steve or law
ff3?
4~3??
db3+4???
bb1 never worked for me
whats db2?
does b2 high crush consistetly?

Originally posted by shauno
Look for decent CH opportunities. Lei has a few moves he can use to punish aggressive opponents when used properly, including
standing 4
DRG 4~
SNK 1~
CRN 3~
2,1_1,2
f,n+4~
Razor Rush


hmm ok, but as said you cant get into stances when under pressure

Originally posted by shauno
Try slowing down pitbulls with attack cancels (3,3~b or FC d/f+2,1,4~b) and bait them into getting hit with attack delays into punishment (2,1,<3+4 or d/f+2,2,<2, BT 4<3, Crane Dance, Razor Rush).


fc df214 isnt natural, df1,1<1 death by ss, bt 4<3 death on block, crane dance death by low parry

Originally posted by shauno
Capitalize on okizeme opportunities, even if that means doing a little less damage on your juggles. Stances are great during wake up, as is
FC d/f+2,1,4,
d+4,4
3~4~
d/b+3
d/f+1+2


imo you shouldnt do anything but d+4. Lei´s are among the worst oki options in the whole game, since ws3 is gone.

btw hows ws3 in ttt2?

Originally posted by shauno
Try to see if you are getting sidestepped yourself and protect yourself from being flanked. For instance, Steve's sway can evade a ton of Lei's followups after you block a string of his, but d/f+3 will punish it every time you know it is coming.


ok if they walk use your homing..

Originally posted by shauno
For Lei, there is no insta-win strategy that works against all characters or all players. He has to make use of a wide range of moves and tactics to do well.


that for sure is right, the best overall strategy whatsoever is running away and whiffpunish, unless his gameplan has totally changed in ttt2
Nameless03
Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 530
From: Singapore
#24 “Quote” Edit Post
b3 is a great alternative to db1+2. It's a bit risky against multi-hit strings since you may end up whiffing your b3 and get hit by the later parts of the string, but otherwise it's a great panic keep-away move and recovers pretty fast to boot.

You're underestimating F4 quite a bit. The high crush is stellar, and if you're getting jailed by attack strings, there are bound to be quite a bit of highs mixed in there. Most mid pokes are -f on block, so if all you're getting hit by are mids, try interrupting with magic 4 and whatnot.

bb1 is a lot safer now with the d_d2 followup, since even if you whiff you will end up on the ground anyway.

I keep forgetting to experiment with his new TTT2 moves (db1 and b2), but from the few times I've used it, the high crush is pretty reliable as well. b2 seems to have the most potential: relatively quick, safe mid poke that crushes high and can go into DRG.

Also remember that Lei's new stance transitions (3+4~1_2_3_4) all have built in punch parry frames that can net you free stance stuff if it triggers. I recall people mentioning that parrying a punch with 3+4_3~TGR pretty much gives you a free TGR 4.
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GreenLei2
7th Dan
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 82
#25 “Quote” Edit Post
cool thanks for the infos.

about db1 on hit, is the mixup (4_1+2) afterwards uninteruptable due to frame advantage?

I remember seeing a vid where it was consequently interupted, even on hit
Nameless03
Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 530
From: Singapore
#26 “Quote” Edit Post
I recall someone saying that a generic df4 can interrupt all of Lei's options after db1 on hit. Can't confirm this personally though.
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shauno
MentalFrameAdvantage
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2943
From: USA California
#27 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by GreenLei2
how would you use these moves when some poke heavy character like mig, nina, hwo, baek, stev, lars, law is in your face?

uf3 ok but you will get foated a lot
uf 3+4? slowest move ever crushes nothing. (against Laws or Lees slide they will hit you while in the air)
ub4 best keep out imo (next to 4), very useful
db1+2 death on whiff and unsafe, near wall ok
b1+2 bad risk reward
db4, db3 is good
f4 can be good against chars with lots of highs like steve or law
ff3?
4~3??
db3+4???
bb1 never worked for me
whats db2?
does b2 high crush consistetly?



hmm ok, but as said you cant get into stances when under pressure



fc df214 isnt natural, df1,1<1 death by ss, bt 4<3 death on block, crane dance death by low parry



imo you shouldnt do anything but d+4. Lei´s are among the worst oki options in the whole game, since ws3 is gone.

btw hows ws3 in ttt2?



ok if they walk use your homing..



that for sure is right, the best overall strategy whatsoever is running away and whiffpunish, unless his gameplan has totally changed in ttt2


The problem with your dismissal of many of the moves is that you assume I am saying "just throw it out there" as a strategy. I wasn't. The point I was making is that if you can get a feel for what an opponent is pressing you with, Lei has a few tools to address it.

If you randomly just toss out attacks, of course you'll get demolished. It would take a full FAQ to specify the best use of each move, so simply bringing them up was done so the poster could expand his tactical thinking.

Here's an example of what I mean. I listed FC d/f+2,1~ options for oki and pitbulling. You're right though that it isn't ever a full combo, but if you need to chip away that last bit of life, the first two hits are high crushing lows that advance you forward (24 damage total). For pitbullers who jab a lot, its worth keeping in mind.

And if they live past the two hits, you can decide if you should cancel the mid kick with ~B for fear fear they will retaliate after blocking it. If you do cancel it, you can block or try something like 2,1 has a good chance of interrupting an aggressive player who was briefly thrown off by not seeing the mid kick come out (or double SS into SNK or drop to the ground, etc.). No, this can't be abused at all. In fact, you might only get something like this to work once every once and awhile.

I mean, I don't like using the headbutt in T6 as a main anti-high attack (unlike in TTT1 where it tracked both ways), but sometimes, it really is the best option for a strong retaliation. As an example, when Steve is setting up a CH with Flicker 1s, you are already holding back as you block so if he even slightly delays one of them, press ~1+2 and the headbutt high-crushes fast enough to interrupt him for a dash-in mixup.

Other options? F+4 could get hit right before it connects (it doesn't high crush during the entire animation), plus you would have to hold forward to execute it, which wastes more frames than simply tapping 1+2 for the headbutt. Other high crush moves are slower or don't do much damage. In TTT2 Lei has two new high crushes (b+2_d/b+1), but I don't know if they are any good in that specific setup so right now I can only vouch for headbutt.... not to abuse or just randomly throw out, but to use at the right moment when I really know what my opponent is attacking me with.

Tat was the point of my final few sentences. Lei doesn't have a ton of bread and butter tactics so you have to carefully choose when to try certain setups. It helps a lot to be able to successfully anticipate what an opponent is doing with HIS setups so you can more safely try some stuff out.

Lei is hard to use and takes a lot of mental energy to even be decent with him. I'm slowly trying to improve with him again after not using him seriously for ages. I don't want to sound as if I am claiming it is easy to win with him once you know how because it isn't (I hate his block punishment options more than anything), but he does have some useful tools that are decent if used in specific, key moments.
Signature "Practice makes improvement - you can never be perfect"
GreenLei2
7th Dan
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 82
#28 “Quote” Edit Post
I know you didnt say to throw those out randomly, if you understood it that way, Im sorry that wasnt the intention.
I just wanted to add some more information about the "right situation". this lei board has been dead for too long, we need to discuss more^^

have you touched ttt2 in depth yet?
Battousai
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1236
From: Philippines
PSN: ElDiabloMacho
#29 “Quote” Edit Post
Wow, I forgot about 3+4~3 parry into free TGR 4. I was testing this a long time ago, but I never got it to work as it is too slow. I'll try to confirm this when I get the chance. If only its parry window began in the opening frames, it would have been a nice tag cancel move. Right now, I use b+3+4~b to tag in safely.


It seems like u/b+4 gets interrupted easily when in range 0-1. So when under pressure, it's not really a very effective way to get a breather.


P.S. I wasn't expecting much when I visited the Lei boards since yes, it has been dead for a while. This is a pleasant surprise
shauno
MentalFrameAdvantage
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 2943
From: USA California
#30 “Quote” Edit Post
GreenLei2: TTT2 was so expensive here for only two rounds when it was on test that I just played it for a few games with Xiao. I haven't played it with Lei yet unfortunately.

Battousai: I hope you are right about that setup. If it works, why wouldn't other 3+4~ setups give free hits?
3+4 for a free SNK 1,2,1?
3+4~1 for a free DRG 4,2,1?
3+4~2 for a free PAN 1,2?
3+4~4 for a free CRN 3,4,2?

It seems like any of this would've been discovered already, but you never know.
Signature "Practice makes improvement - you can never be perfect"
l337v1n337
[RRD]/[GDZLLA]\[IFC]
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2866
From: USA Texas
PSN: L337v1n337
#31 “Quote” Edit Post
When I first started playing, I was only v1n337.. but then shauno's lessons turned me into L337v1n337! Listen to his stuff, guys =)
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Battousai
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1236
From: Philippines
PSN: ElDiabloMacho
#32 “Quote” Edit Post
You all know about TA! fillers allowing your 2nd character to do a string that goes into a stance, and then do another string from that stance, before ending the TA! filler, right? Like:
1. Steve: d/f+1,2,1~b, FLK 1~b, FLK 3+4,2
2. Hwoarang: f+3+4, RFF 3~4~f, RFS moves
3. Baek: 4,3,3~f, FLA d+4,4 (at the wall)


I wonder why Lei doesn't work that way. AFAIK, only u/f+3 (into CRN moves) and 3~b allow you to extend your TA. All the other strings into stances make your first character leave the screen and make Lei the point character.

So, stuff like:
1. f,N+4,1~f_d
2. 1+2
3. 2,1~f
4. RR into animal stances

will cut your juggle short, because your original point character is no longer there to followup on your TA filler. Why is that?
Nameless03
Legend
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 530
From: Singapore
#33 “Quote” Edit Post
Law has the same problem, seems to just work that way with some characters. He can do a 43 into DSS during TA, but 434 into DSS doesn't work since he gets kicked out immediately after 434.
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Battousai
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1236
From: Philippines
PSN: ElDiabloMacho
#34 “Quote” Edit Post
Wow, really? I didn't know that. I guess Lei isn't the only one. But that doesn't make me any less frustrated.
Drunken Cop
Raijin
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 613
From: Hong Kong
#35 “Quote” Edit Post
GreenLei2? Are you not my buddy from Germany??? you don't seem to know TT2...

d/b+1 on hit get's cancelled out by any 12 frame mid/low. So it's a fucking useless move unless you want to risk using this to end a round.

At least the CRN dance works on the wall...
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Main team: Lei + Ogre
Secondary: Lars + Raven
GreenLei2
7th Dan
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 82
#36 “Quote” Edit Post
Drunken Cop yes thats me, I cant access my old account since the password reset.
theres no ttt2 in europe, we have to wait for console version

so db1 is basically punishable on hit? why would namco do that? I just dont get it
Drunken Cop
Raijin
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 613
From: Hong Kong
#37 “Quote” Edit Post
Namco is retarded. Need I say more.

d/b+1 is interesting because during startup it is a super low and it kind of has a small auto SS. The evading properties are great, range is ok. But it is basically a low that is launchable on block, and punishable on hit (for most characters)
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Main team: Lei + Ogre
Secondary: Lars + Raven
[~DTC~]
Combo Derper
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1565
From: Australia
XBL: Nor 360 =S
#38 “Quote” Edit Post
If only they allow it to cancel early...
Also hows everyone doing with there Lei's. Got to say mine has gone down to unplayable...I'm much better with my partner Drag now...

Last edited by [~DTC~] on Jun 11th, 2012 at 02:39

Signature &// - Dragon - Tiger - Crane -DTC
Keeper of the CRANE
DEATH by METAL
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 13160
From: Austria
PSN: Zakillah
#39 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Battousai
So, stuff like:
1. f,N+4,1~f_d
2. 1+2
3. 2,1~f
4. RR into animal stances

will cut your juggle short, because your original point character is no longer there to followup on your TA filler. Why is that?

Blergh.
I was hoping 1+2~1, BT3 would work. All the other options I dont mind, because the damage is crap.
Whats the bnb TA now anyway? u/f+3, CRN3? f,f+3,4? f,f+4,3+4?
Or a crazy idea...3~4,3,(3) into PLD?
At least u/f+3 CRN dance works now at the wall.
Battousai
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1236
From: Philippines
PSN: ElDiabloMacho
#40 “Quote” Edit Post
Haha, personally, I wanted 2,1~f, DRU b+1+2_u/f+1+2 to be my TA, but no dice.

For the life of me, I can't do f+3,1,2 as his TA. Even if I SSL beforehand, or delay the hits. The best I could get is f+3,1. Sometimes I do u/f+3, CRN 4.

f,f+4,3+4: the second hit whiffs.

But mind you, I don't get too much playing time, so my timing may just be off.

I haven't tried 3~4,4 as the TA itself. I use it as a followup to Lei's partner's TA instead. Or just d/f+1+2~f for the resulting mixup afterwards.

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