Feng's Pressure Guide

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Kiwi
Shihan
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 107
#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA
Feng doesn't have trouble punishing other characters. He's my best character and I've yet to run into a situation that I had an issue with punishing. You seems like you want Feng to become an A tier/upper B tier character but its not going to happen. My main concern was that he would lose his properties on U+F2, Tech trap among other things. Since I know that hasn't happened it really all good to me. I've had guys swear up and down that Feng wasn't low tier although I'll gladly tell them that he is. The new mixups are great and should his new shoulder smash have massive damage thats simply an added bonus. But I think you're overreacting about him. I felt like complaining about Feng for a minute but after a while I'm comfortable with him against any character.


yes, I want him at A tier or even better S tier. Who doesnt. Lets get real here. Which one of us on here does not want Feng to be higher tier. Raise your hand if you dont want it and get lynched.

You realize how pathetically weak C tier is? He was mid tier (thats B) in T6BR. So basically, he got nerfed AGAIN.

I seem to recall me bitching about Feng getting nerfed in TTT2 and you guys didnt want to hear any of it. Guess what, it happened. C tier, bro.

And his shoulder damage increase is not verified. In that video with Justin Wong, his shoulder did massive damage. But not in this video. Look at the date. Posted last week. Only took 20% of life bar. So Justin Wongs shoulder must have been counterhit or something. Cos I know its not rage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwG9...feature=related

Shoulder @ 4:08

What I like is his new 2,4 into BT. He turns really fast and you get to mix up pretty well. His BT d3 can B! easier from what I have heard but I havent seen it done on Ling or Zafina.
Other than that, he is a big disappointment so far.
3,3,4 isnt anything special. Its h,h,l. Can troll it a few times against n00bs and such but lets face it. Everyone else will just duck and either launch or block the last hit. At least Feng dont get stagger on this like BT d3...average move no matter how you slice it.

Where is his new low high. If it is so special, than why isnt anyone using it. I thought it was supposed to be Fengs "nerfed version" of Julia's low high. Ill take it, even a nerfed version of it. But nobody is using it, so its either incredibly shitty or its incredibly shitty.

Like I said, a big disappointment so far.

THE SCRUB ZILLA
Raijin
Joined: Sep 2010
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kiwi
yes, I want him at A tier or even better S tier. Who doesnt. Lets get real here. Which one of us on here does not want Feng to be higher tier. Raise your hand if you dont want it and get lynched.

You realize how pathetically weak C tier is? He was mid tier (thats B) in T6BR. So basically, he got nerfed AGAIN.

I seem to recall me bitching about Feng getting nerfed in TTT2 and you guys didnt want to hear any of it. Guess what, it happened. C tier, bro.

And his shoulder damage increase is not verified. In that video with Justin Wong, his shoulder did massive damage. But not in this video. Look at the date. Posted last week. Only took 20% of life bar. So Justin Wongs shoulder must have been counterhit or something. Cos I know its not rage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwG9...feature=related

Shoulder @ 4:08

What I like is his new 2,4 into BT. He turns really fast and you get to mix up pretty well. His BT d3 can B! easier from what I have heard but I havent seen it done on Ling or Zafina.
Other than that, he is a big disappointment so far.
3,3,4 isnt anything special. Its h,h,l. Can troll it a few times against n00bs and such but lets face it. Everyone else will just duck and either launch or block the last hit. At least Feng dont get stagger on this like BT d3...average move no matter how you slice it.

Where is his new low high. If it is so special, than why isnt anyone using it. I thought it was supposed to be Fengs "nerfed version" of Julia's low high. Ill take it, even a nerfed version of it. But nobody is using it, so its either incredibly shitty or its incredibly shitty.

Like I said, a big disappointment so far.


You're into Tiers heavily I can see that. I'm not as much that's why its not bothering as much. That Tier list isn't accurate in the first place so I'm not going to get caught up in all of that. I'm sure the tier list will vary over the regions as well. It sounds like you've been having a hard time coming out with wins with Feng against the competetion in T6 but not everyone is having that same issue Kiwi. I've seen more complaining in this section than Alisa's ( and Its been said that she has taken a major plummet in the rankings).
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Kiwi
Shihan
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA
I've seen more complaining in this section than Alisa's ( and Its been said that she has taken a major plummet in the rankings).


Yes, allisa is one of those matches that I hate. Feng is particularly weak against Allisa. Hard to punish her lows unless using ff3 to launch. Almost all his long range moves gets easily crushed by spamming allisa's. Hey everyone hated her, thats why she plummeted. Lets not kid ourselves. She is a no skill character. I could literally pick her up and troll n00bs all day. It is quite telling that a new character like Allisa is already a superstar in the new Tekken CGI movie. That says it all about priorities of characters in the minds of the folk at Namco.

But Im not here talking about Allisa. She has a reason to plummet in the ranks. Whats Fengs reason?

Also, lets be realistic here man. Even Hao is 50% win only.
And more likely than not, if its someone you never played against, you probably lose the first two matches before you can readapt to his style. Thats Feng for ya.
THE SCRUB ZILLA
Raijin
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#24 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kiwi
Yes, allisa is one of those matches that I hate. Feng is particularly weak against Allisa. Hard to punish her lows unless using ff3 to launch. Almost all his long range moves gets easily crushed by spamming allisa's. Hey everyone hated her, thats why she plummeted. Lets not kid ourselves. She is a no skill character. I could literally pick her up and troll n00bs all day. It is quite telling that a new character like Allisa is already a superstar in the new Tekken CGI movie. That says it all about priorities of characters in the minds of the folk at Namco.

But Im not here talking about Allisa. She has a reason to plummet in the ranks. Whats Fengs reason?

Also, lets be realistic here man. Even Hao is 50% win only.
And more likely than not, if its someone you never played against, you probably lose the first two matches before you can readapt to his style. Thats Feng for ya.


No, that's Feng for YOU. I dont tend to get bodied after the first 2-3 games I have against fresh opponents. df+4, b+4, ff+2, d/b+3, uf+2 or uf+1 are all good moves to use against Alisa. Fighting a spammy character isn't entertaining but lets be honest, if you're actually a decent Feng player you shouldn't keep falling into the same traps that bad/spamming players execute. I could care less about Alisa being a spammy character or the center of attention in the new movie. What I'm saying is that she has taken a nosedive in tiers and at least none of the people that use her are freaking out. Quite frankly, I dont have any nagging issues fighting Alisa/Lars/Law/Steve/Eddie/Nina when using Feng. I cant speak for everyone but I can speak for myself on that.
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by TorqueStomp
Oddly, there is no such thread for Feng, and I believe this deserves it's own unique thread / discussion. I've only "Mained" Feng for a week, but I believe I'm pretty competent on the subject. I believe it of utmost importance that people understand Feng's pressure game, because he has specialized tools as opposed to universal.


Hey, T.S. Nice info you gathered here.
I believe if you want to discuss and divide which move that suits for pressuring and which is not.
you should define what you mean by pressuring first.
Dont get me wrong. i understand what you mean and what you want to accomplish by "pressuring".
Tekken is fun when you get to attack. And to keep attacking, we have to mantaining "pressure".
Thats when the pressure games comes, right?

So, pressure game, its about holds our pace, mantaining safe distance whilst keeping opponents stay on their toes. Affraid of us. Of what comes next, if they decide to rush in.

But this is the point where everyone has their own opinions. For me, to separate, which tools to keeping pressure, and which is not, is has to based on three aspects, that is 1). frames, 2). range and 3). properties.
1. frame
to keep pressuring, means to keep opponent retaliate as minimal as possible. that means, a fast moves is needed. not only moves with small impact frame, but also, moves that gives advantages. even on blocked.
2). range
to keep pressuring, means to stay outta opponents range. Feng's good at this, since we has many tools that has medium to long range. So if a certain opponents try to counter after a blocked attack, most of their choice could whiff. A great opportunity for us to land big boys damage, or a simple KND.
3). Properties
to keep pressuring, means to keep opponents guessing, what may come if they decide to retaliate. Imagine as this way. When we're cornered Asuka on the wall. We ALWAYS has to keep in mind, that Asuka's have Reversal, that could wallsplatted hand attacks. So, Feng had to changes pokes to 1+2, f1+2, and qcf1+2 that impossible to reversed.
If we kept this mindset, then we also could keep our opponents guessing what may comes if they decide to attack. Compared to half the roster, Feng is lucky to have many tools that properties is suitable for this purpose.

i guess thats it what i want to share for a time being. i'll break up your every choice based on the three aspects, and maybe added a few more.


right. i also want to say that i really enjoyed this kinda discussion within forums. You see, this kinda thing, the eagerness of players to research and analyze the game, that keep yourself to grow better as a player. And also, when you share your findings or what you had in mind, it helps the community to grow, and Feng to be better.
Dont be affraid to share what your oppinions, as long as its based on fair judgment and real facts. Because, sometimes i found many ppl in Tekkenzaibatsu forum think that they could prove they are better that other player by flaming other people opinions. Outsmart others by trashing other opinions.

thanks for posting guys.
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#26 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kiwi
Not really. Unless youre one of those players that know every characters moves and weaknesses. And even than, people can still mix up.

Only few people can play that way man. Lets be realistic here. How many people have perfect defense?

the game has been out for quite some time already,
players that have been regularly play would more or less have the idea of what each character is capable of doing.
serious players that have been regularly playing would also has pretty good gaming reaction too.

of course there is not no perfect defense, but what i see in most top players is spacing and playing safe and sneak in for a mixup and space out again looking out for chances to punish a whiff or recovery lag. i would say the core of their game still evolve around turtle.
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA
No, that's Feng for YOU. I dont tend to get bodied after the first 2-3 games I have against fresh opponents. df+4, b+4, ff+2, d/b+3, uf+2 or uf+1 are all good moves to use against Alisa. Fighting a spammy character isn't entertaining but lets be honest, if you're actually a decent Feng player you shouldn't keep falling into the same traps that bad/spamming players execute. I could care less about Alisa being a spammy character or the center of attention in the new movie. What I'm saying is that she has taken a nosedive in tiers and at least none of the people that use her are freaking out. Quite frankly, I dont have any nagging issues fighting Alisa/Lars/Law/Steve/Eddie/Nina when using Feng. I cant speak for everyone but I can speak for myself on that.


I have been playing feng since T5. Not T5DR. But T5. Thats 6 years now. I am no n00b.
I spoke nothing but truth. Yea, if you can play Feng like a rock solid turtle, Feng can be good. Yea if you have incredible patience, than Feng can be rewarding.

That is however just your version of reality and does not take into account what other players can do with other characters. Half the time when youre getting rushed, you will slip and you will get launched. It matters not who you are against with. You will crack. Nobody has perfect defense. It happens to everyone. And when you crack, say bye bye to 70% or 95% of your health bar if youre against the wall.

Its nice to say how you can do this and that if you just play turtle and dont rush to make mistakes, but the simple fact is I can pick up some other character and deal almost twice the damage feng does with half the effort. So yea, when people say Feng is B tier in T6, he really is just B tier. No, they didnt lie, no they didnt bash Feng. It really is an accurate portrayal of reality that almost anything that Feng can do, someone else can do it better.

So when they now say that Feng is C tier, it most likely is an accurate reality. Especially when you have good knowledge of Feng inside and out, you will know it is probably the case. Sure, its not 100% final and its still early. But youre sounding like those people half a year ago kept saying "No, no, kiwi, the game is not final yet, just wait and be patient, Im sure Feng will be upgraded etc etc"

Well, that was 6 months ago. The game is out now. Guess what, it happened. Feng got nerfed. lol.

To constantly keep saying that its not final yet, well, youre setting yourself up for massive disappointment. Lets face it, at this stage, there is about 0% chance Feng will end up as top tier.
You have 10% chance of Feng getting upgraded to B tier.

I wouldnt hold my breath if I were you. Im not bashing Feng. I play Feng. I want him to be strong. But Im also REALISTIC.

The only 2 good things I have seen so far, are his 2,4 into BT and his 3,3 into BT.
These 2 moves are what Feng needed cos his BT strategy has seriously lacked so far. It was very hard to set up BT close enough to your opponent. But these moves will do just that. From there, you can set them up. If they backdash, you can cancel BT and go for regularly set ups etc.

Feng will need his trickery and mindgames more than ever now.



Last edited by Kiwi on Oct 2nd, 2011 at 08:50

THE SCRUB ZILLA
Raijin
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kiwi

That is however just your version of reality and does not take into account what other players can do with other characters. Half the time when youre getting rushed, you will slip and you will get launched. It matters not who you are against with. You will crack. Nobody has perfect defense. It happens to everyone. And when you crack, say bye bye to 70% or 95% of your health bar if youre against the wall.

Its nice to say how you can do this and that if you just play turtle and dont rush to make mistakes, but the simple fact is I can pick up some other character and deal almost twice the damage feng does with half the effort. So yea, when people say Feng is B tier in T6, he really is just B tier. No, they didnt lie, no they didnt bash Feng. It really is an accurate portrayal of reality that almost anything that Feng can do, someone else can do it better.

So when they now say that Feng is C tier, it most likely is an accurate reality. Especially when you have good knowledge of Feng inside and out, you will know it is probably the case. Sure, its not 100% final and its still early. But youre sounding like those people half a year ago kept saying "No, no, kiwi, the game is not final yet, just wait and be patient, Im sure Feng will be upgraded etc etc"

Well, that was 6 months ago. The game is out now. Guess what, it happened. Feng got nerfed. lol.

To constantly keep saying that its not final yet, well, youre setting yourself up for massive disappointment. Lets face it, at this stage, there is about 0% chance Feng will end up as top tier.
You have 10% chance of Feng getting upgraded to B tier.

I wouldnt hold my breath if I were you. Im not bashing Feng. I play Feng. I want him to be strong. But Im also REALISTIC.

The only 2 good things I have seen so far, are his 2,4 into BT and his 3,3 into BT.
These 2 moves are what Feng needed cos his BT strategy has seriously lacked so far. It was very hard to set up BT close enough to your opponent. But these moves will do just that. From there, you can set them up. If they backdash, you can cancel BT and go for regularly set ups etc.

Feng will need his trickery and mindgames more than ever now.


Feng looks virtually the same Kiwi except he has 3 new moves and some old moves he's able to cancel. That's really enough for me. I've stuck with him and its been paying off. Maybe there's something going on with your strategy that causes you to experience issues with the competition. I mean damn, Kuma isn't anywhere near A or B tier yet I know a guy who constantly places top 3 with him in tournaments in VA. And these tournaments tend to be a decent size with over 30-40 people. You'd do better expressing this issue on Harada's twitter or something but its not going to help but turn people away from using Feng with you continuing this. I picked up Feng because I liked his appearance and fighting style. Not because he was a legit monster in T5 or DR. I practiced hard with him because he's a fun character to use.

I like to use characters that take more dedication than others ( Which is why I also use Kuma and looking into getting serious with Heihachi). Namco knows that they toned him down some. That's why he has alot of moves that trick the opponent and keep them at bay. Alot of those moves irritate the hell out of people as well. I will honestly say that if they gave Feng any more power behind his hits he would be considered cheap as hell by many. Then you'd have another LARS or ALISA or BOB at your disposal. AND you'd have all these players flock to Feng because its "easier to win with him". I dont want to see that happen. If people dont want to use Feng because he takes more time to learn then that's what it is. He's not a horrible character in the least but people these days want an "easy character".

The MVC series is the epitome of this truth. The same applies with characters in T6. Work with what you have. It's going to be a damn shame to see all the new Zafina and Yoshimitsu bandwagon players that will arrive once TTT2 hits the states. They were among the most ignored character but their latest upgrades will have people swarming.
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adipati
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#29 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey, i've been following this discussion lately. And maybe i need to share my opinions, so that newbies dont just take it for granted what other players has shared. and i dont say that what i posted will be the right one either. it just my humble opinions.

So, i'll address my opinions by some statements here and there:


Originally posted by Kiwi
This is one of the problems I have with Feng. His moves are so gimped. Namco doesnt give a shit.


i think Namco has done a very good job in keeping the game interesting. Its not easy you know, to keep a balanced game with this 40 different characters. Some character are made strong, and some are "not-strong". Some are suitable for pittbullers, some are ranged, some are turtles, some are trickster or both. Harada and his team just want to make Feng just the way he is. if some people dont like his assests, then move. theres plenty of characters to choose. if anyone already likes him, then accept for what he is and shut up.

Originally posted by Kiwi
Just watch a few youtube TTT2 videos man. Game is still highly favoring offensive characters and juggles still take half your energy bar. That means if a turtle like Feng whiffs...well say bye bye to half your life bar.


Then dont whiff. Read your opponents movement carefully, and punish ACCORDINGLY. if you whiffed, that is your own damn fault.

Originally posted by Kiwi
But Julia still scary as hell and its mostly Jack6 anyway. I wonder how much of those wins were really contributed by Feng. Cos imo it seemed more like 65% jack, 35% Feng to me.


If you said that Julia and Jacks are better than Feng then you didnt know anything about them or dont judge them fairly. Once again i need to remind everyone to use examples to defend your statements.

Lets make a comparison between these three character.

1. Based on frame of execution.

JULIA
Standing
? -10: 12 (17 dmg, +)
? -12: f21 (20 dmg)
? -15: qcf2 (launch), uf4,3 (launch)
? -16: df2,1 (launch)

Low punishing:
? -11: ws4 ( dmg, +)
? -14: FCdf4,3
? -16: ws1 (launch)
? -18: ws21 (launch)


JACK-6
Standing
? -10: f2 (15 dmg, +5)
? -11: 2,1 (22 dmg, +2)
? -12: db1 (13 dmg, +3)_df4
? -13: df3+4 (30 dmg, knd)
? -14: df1 (12 dmg, +4)_f1,2 (26 dmg, +7)
? -15: f1+2 (20 dmg, knd)_df2
? -16: ff1 (28 dmg, knd)_df32 (42 dmg, knd)
? -19: ff2
? -22: b,db,d,df+2
? -29: EMGF aka hcf,df1
Low punishing:
? -11: ws4 (20 dmg, +5)
? -15: ws2 (doesn't launch crouchers)
? -16: ws32 (same as df32)_ws1


FENG WEI
Standing
? -10: 122 (29 dmg, +3)_ 13 (26 dmg, +5)_ 24 (21 dmg, -1)
? -12: b4 (15 dmg)
? -13: b1+2 (28 dmg, KND)
? -15: uf4 (launch)
? -20: f34 (launch, -16)
Low punishing:
? -11: ws4 (13 dmg, +8)
? -15: ws3 (launch)


2. Based on frame of punishing.

Standing punishing launcher:
Julia, Jack6 and Feng has to wait until -15f to launch people:
? Julia qcf2_uf4,3
? Jack df2
? Feng uf4

Low launcher:
? Feng: db4_ss4
? Julia: 1211 (you should see it from miles away, since no mixup from 121)
? Jack6: NONE

Low punishing launcher:
? Feng: ws3 (i15f)
Both Julia and Jack6 has to wait until -16f to launch. So a blocked Feng's db3 is safe from getting launched.
? Julia: ws1 (i16f)
? Jack6: ws1 (i16f) note: Jack6 ws2 is i15f and launch. but cant launch a chrouched opp.

Based on frame of punishing and type of launchers, Feng is better, since he has low launchers and could punish a blocked low attack by 15f.

To compared the three of them based on their gameplays is rather absurd, since the three of them has different characteristics. Like Julia's attacks is VERY LINEAR and sidestepped-able. And Jack6 has long arms but short legs. While Feng is a long range punishers. But between these three, only Feng that has tracking moves, in b4.

Jack6 win in damage department. Julia win in mixups (a very high risk, but also high reward). And Feng is a great Turtle. But if i want to see whose better between those three, i will say, Feng is better. Hao is once a TekkenGod. While Yuu is still a great competitor. Envy is good with Julia since they havent familiar with his Julia's set ups. While nobody except Anakin reach the top with Jack6.


Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA

Some say he's easy to use but that's a half truth that will only stretch but so far. To execute his moves compared to other characters is simple. But to execute his moves properly compared to others takes a hell of a lot more skill. His moves get easy to read after a moment so a proper understanding of his moveset to mix people up is necessary.That's why many who pick Feng up begin to realize after some time which is why not that many people use him. Feng is actually pretty decent in T6. He's no S tier but he's far from helpless against a Lars, Nina, or Law for that matter. Feng just takes more dedication.


Oh Feng is relatively easy to use allright. Everyone could learn him and managed to memorize all his staple juggles in 2-3 hours of training. But, just like Paul, and many other character. Feng lack of various tools (like a 12f KND moves), is kept him from being a Upper Tier character. So yes. We have to look, the better use of his already given moves. Like uf2. Who would've imagine its potential? Or the discussed-many ws1? Thats why im very encourage every players to research, share and discuss their thoughts. Who would've know we would find more godlike setup or guaranteed damage.
Im all agree with you bro. Feng takes more dedication.


Originally posted by kiwi

Also, you guys need to check out the character rankings of TTT2. So far, Feng is only listed as C tier. I knew it! I have been saying that half a year ago and people here attacked me for it. Who is laughing now. It was obvious from the start. If you truly know Feng in and out, you will know he received very little boosts to cover his lacks.


Who the hell still checked that rankings? Do you really need to know how people think about your character? Tekken 6 is already 6 years. But every high level players must be agree, that the ranks is very biased, and based on the people who used that character.


Originally posted by kiwi

Where is his new low high. If it is so special, than why isnt anyone using it. I thought it was supposed to be Fengs "nerfed version" of Julia's low high. Ill take it, even a nerfed version of it. But nobody is using it, so its either incredibly shitty or its incredibly shitty.


You cant really believe everything you saw on those vids. Its still an early phase. People need time to get feel of the game systems.


Originally posted by kiwi

Also, lets be realistic here man. Even Hao is 50% win only.
And more likely than not, if its someone you never played against, you probably lose the first two matches before you can readapt to his style. Thats Feng for ya.


Why do know about HAO? HAO is STIL ranked Tekken Emperor. If you judged his 50% ratio by his achievement in TekkenCrash, then, do you know how hard it is to compete in High Level Tourney? Even the Godlike Ressurection is fail misserably.

And why you said that WE need the first two match before we adapt to our opponents style? It maybe just you. But here, I'M the one makes people adapt with me. Theyre the one that losing the first two match. Not me. Feng is a Trickster. Why dont you use him properly. Make people keep guessing. Keep the range to our advantage, and punish with Feng MANY long range punishers.


Originally posted by kiwi

I have been playing feng since T5. Not T5DR. But T5. Thats 6 years now. I am no n00b.
I spoke nothing but truth. Yea, if you can play Feng like a rock solid turtle, Feng can be good. Yea if you have incredible patience, than Feng can be rewarding.


Why dont you think most of everyone here, has played Feng the same time as you?
You spoke truth. I believe you. You just to concern with what other people said about Feng, especially his TIERS. And judge by your statement, maybe youre the one that doesnt has the patience to play Feng. If you dont have incredible patience, why dont you start developing one, and start winning. We all did.


Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA

I've stuck with him and its been paying off. Maybe there's something going on with your strategy that causes you to experience issues with the competition.


Good point!


Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA

I mean damn, Kuma isn't anywhere near A or B tier yet I know a guy who constantly places top 3 with him in tournaments in VA.


Right. only justifying my statement earlier. TIER is debateable. But skill is fact.


Originally posted by THE SCRUB ZILLA

The MVC series is the epitome of this truth. The same applies with characters in T6. Work with what you have. It's going to be a damn shame to see all the new Zafina and Yoshimitsu bandwagon players that will arrive once TTT2 hits the states. They were among the most ignored character but their latest upgrades will have people swarming.


i played various fighting game too. So im gonna quoted a very famous words in MVC3.

"you could nerfed the character. But you could not nerfed the PLAYER".

Last edited by adipati on Oct 3rd, 2011 at 07:31

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Kiwi
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#30 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by adipati
....


And of course, all of that is just your opinion and it doesnt necessarily have to do with reality.

Of course, in the big picture all characters were assigned a role by Namco and Fengs role is that of a turtle based character. But just because Namco assigns a role for a character, doesnt mean its fair or doesnt mean that character is not gimped.

In fact, we have been through this discussion before. Your opinion is clearly that "you can win with any character" as long as you know everything about your opponent.

The reality however is not that simple. You keep talking and hammering on about how Feng is this great turtle that doesnt need anything else. Well, this is actually quite easy to prove. So lets do this test and see if we can win from anyone in this game with just turtling skills, shall we?

Your assumption that Feng is a good character because:
- Namco made Feng a good turtle
- we have to work with what we have and Feng has to work with what Feng was given
- that you can win from anyone with just good turtling
- and that you only need to know how to punish other characters

The test is easy. The premise is that defense is all you need and that one can win by just playing defensive. This automatically assumes that offense is not necessary and thus you are forbidden to go bulldog style. You are also forbidden to use any moves or punches and kicks. The only exception is d1. Yes, that low jab. This move has one of the weakest damage in the game and is suitable for our test.

So here are the rules:
- play defensive all match, you can use any move to evade, as long as it does not damage your opponent.
- only punish with d1

Now if your assumption/ theory is correct, you should be able to win against ANYONE. That means ANY character and against ANY opponent. As long as you understand your opponents strategy and your opponents character.

Lets see how far you will go with these rules. In fact, I would wager good money (thats how confident I am) that you would NOT win one match in the next tourney. Not one. Period.

Your theory is flawed. And this test will show that good defense is not the only thing you need to be competitive. GOOD OFFENSIVE IS JUST AS EQUALLY IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE.

So clearly, just using fengs defense isnt going to work. Or are you going to deny this too.

I'll tell you why it doesnt work. Listen carefully BECAUSE you can defend UNlimited times and still not win, while you only need to connect (juggle) a FEW times to win the match.

Thats why. You play with a timer and a health bar, son. As you can see, the game is highly favoring offense. Thats just the rule of the game and nothing you say will change that. The strongest characters are thus those who have a good balance between offense and defense. And if they are also easy to learn, they automatically become top tier. That would be Lars.

In fact, you talked about how Anakin showed that it was possible to play good turtle. The reason why it works for him, is because he plays Jack. He doesnt play Feng. He plays Jack, ok?
- Jack has extremely high damage
- Jack has a huge range box
- Jack has some hard-to-see-coming "cheap" moves.

So yes, it works for him because he is a good turtle and he has strong high damage punishment. Once he connects, he also has momentum on his side. Tell me, how does Jack even resemble Feng.
And btw from all the video's I have seen, Anakin got demoted 6 times in Korea. Thats only the matches that were recorded. Only the good lord will know how many times he got demoted outside those videos. Thats how flawed turtling is.

You talked about Hao. Well, almost every other character has a Tekken god player and the best Feng is Tekken Emperor. Prolly the only Feng in those ranges too. So whats your point. Hao stands at lonely heights. No other Fengs up there.

You know, there is a good reason why Feng is rated at the BOTTOM 20% at C tier by gamers currently for Tekken Tag 2. Why deny the obvious. I didnt wrote that tier list but I still saw it coming (like 6 months ago) and its quite easy to understand why he is bottom at the moment. I think all the people reading our discussions, the majority have long known Feng doesnt sound appealing to play. Its just a few of you who are still denying the obvious.

Last edited by Kiwi on Oct 11th, 2011 at 17:02

OffInBed
TEKKEN CHICKEN
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2221
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: OffInBed
#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Hello Kiwi,

First off, I'd like to point out that I completely understand your argument, I'm not too sure about how I feel about what you said, I can agree to some extent.

You can't really deny that turtling isn't important in Tekken. In my opinioin, most high level tourney players turtle most of the time. I'm not sure exactly how adipati put it, but I don't believe in turtling 100 pct of the time, like STRICTLY waiting to punish. Truth is, no one really throws out unsafe moves like that.

Of course the game is about offense, I don't even want to go on the detail about that.


At the end of the day, knowing your character, and knowing your opponents character, and knowing how to apply your character to THEIR character is key. If you couldn't break 10 out of 10 grabs, and react to every attack optimally, punishing and launching at every chance possible. You will be nearly undefeatable.


It's funny that you brought up Annakin. I lost to him at Final Round ATL. Funny thing is, I was killing him for like.. 2 rounds. Someone told me when I fight him, go ALL out, do random ridiculous shit, and throw out retardedly open db4 and SS4 and hop kick like an asshole. Believe it or not, this is what was working. I won the firrst two rounds spamming random shit. After those 2 rounds, I started feeling comfortable, and then I thought I should turtle.

I basically tried to beat Annakin at his own game, and I don't think Feng can beat jack when it comes to poking either. I didn't really know what the fuck to do. I refused to go back to the random button mashing strat. At the end, the person who gave me this advice looked dissapointed, told me I shoulda stuck. I chatted with Annakin, and he said that he didn't even know what the fuck was going on, and he's not used to having to block lows.

My point is really, there has to be a perfect balance of defense and offense. Before this experience I wanted to be the greatest turtling Feng ever. Now, Tekken, for me at least, is reading my opponent, and knowing what they are capable of, and exploiting what they allow me to. Is Feng great for tutling? Sure he is, Kenpo Step ALONE has gotten me out of really tight situations. SS2 is probably my favorite move to either lure people in or keep them at bay, and then he has the all mighty b4 and b1 to stop anyones momentum. At the same time, offense can be applied in a way to set all of that up or even more.

It's usually a good idea to stick to turtling after you already dealed damage, like you said, using the health bar and clock. in adipati's defense, I'm sure he didn't mean to LITERALLY not attack at all until you see the chance. Because speaking from experience (losing to annakin) sometimes that just won't work.


btw if I beat hiim I would have placed top 16 T_T
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green)Lei
do it like old water
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1269
From: Germany
PSN: GreenLei
#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kiwi
And of course, all of that is just your opinion and it doesnt necessarily have to do with reality.

Of course, in the big picture all characters were assigned a role by Namco and Fengs role is that of a turtle based character. But just because Namco assigns a role for a character, doesnt mean its fair or doesnt mean that character is not gimped.

In fact, we have been through this discussion before. Your opinion is clearly that "you can win with any character" as long as you know everything about your opponent.

The reality however is not that simple. You keep talking and hammering on about how Feng is this great turtle that doesnt need anything else. Well, this is actually quite easy to prove. So lets do this test and see if we can win from anyone in this game with just turtling skills, shall we?

Your assumption that Feng is a good character because:
- Namco made Feng a good turtle
- we have to work with what we have and Feng has to work with what Feng was given
- that you can win from anyone with just good turtling
- and that you only need to know how to punish other characters

The test is easy. The premise is that defense is all you need and that one can win by just playing defensive. This automatically assumes that offense is not necessary and thus you are forbidden to go bulldog style. You are also forbidden to use any moves or punches and kicks. The only exception is d1. Yes, that low jab. This move has one of the weakest damage in the game and is suitable for our test.

So here are the rules:
- play defensive all match, you can use any move to evade, as long as it does not damage your opponent.
- only punish with d1

Now if your assumption/ theory is correct, you should be able to win against ANYONE. That means ANY character and against ANY opponent. As long as you understand your opponents strategy and your opponents character.

Lets see how far you will go with these rules. In fact, I would wager good money (thats how confident I am) that you would NOT win one match in the next tourney. Not one. Period.

Your theory is flawed. And this test will show that good defense is not the only thing you need to be competitive. GOOD OFFENSIVE IS JUST AS EQUALLY IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE.

So clearly, just using fengs defense isnt going to work. Or are you going to deny this too.

I'll tell you why it doesnt work. Listen carefully BECAUSE you can defend UNlimited times and still not win, while you only need to connect (juggle) a FEW times to win the match.

Thats why. You play with a timer and a health bar, son. As you can see, the game is highly favoring offense. Thats just the rule of the game and nothing you say will change that. The strongest characters are thus those who have a good balance between offense and defense. And if they are also easy to learn, they automatically become top tier. That would be Lars.

In fact, you talked about how Anakin showed that it was possible to play good turtle. The reason why it works for him, is because he plays Jack. He doesnt play Feng. He plays Jack, ok?
- Jack has extremely high damage
- Jack has a huge range box
- Jack has some hard-to-see-coming "cheap" moves.

So yes, it works for him because he is a good turtle and he has strong high damage punishment. Once he connects, he also has momentum on his side. Tell me, how does Jack even resemble Feng.
And btw from all the video's I have seen, Anakin got demoted 6 times in Korea. Thats only the matches that were recorded. Only the good lord will know how many times he got demoted outside those videos. Thats how flawed turtling is.

You talked about Hao. Well, almost every other character has a Tekken god player and the best Feng is Tekken Emperor. Prolly the only Feng in those ranges too. So whats your point. Hao stands at lonely heights. No other Fengs up there.

You know, there is a good reason why Feng is rated at the BOTTOM 20% at C tier by gamers currently for Tekken Tag 2. Why deny the obvious. I didnt wrote that tier list but I still saw it coming (like 6 months ago) and its quite easy to understand why he is bottom at the moment. I think all the people reading our discussions, the majority have long known Feng doesnt sound appealing to play. Its just a few of you who are still denying the obvious.


why dont you just spend your time in pmode.. gosh

feng is nice the way he is, accept it or play Lars
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wooden-man
Fujin
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 583
#33 “Quote” Edit Post
noone can make it far with 100% defensive or offensive game play.
if u can keep winning with full rush in strategy, i really don't know who have u been playing

when we say any character excel in turtle, we simply mean that the main strategy is to place more weight on turtle.

and that teir thingy, it does make a diffence but its not the only winning factor.
if so every single tournament from the early tekken series till not would have won by the number 1 tiers.
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Kiwi
Shihan
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 107
#34 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by green)Lei

feng is nice the way he is, accept it or play Lars


Trust me, I already am.
Feng/ Lars just like Yuu.

The top characters are those that have the best balance between defense and offense. The problem with Feng is that he is tilted too much on the one side.

This makes no sense whatsoever when you realize that almost everyone else can have a solid defense just like feng but with much higher offense.

The game favors offense so essentially Feng is playing with handicap. It sucks.
His juggles still do shit damage.
Kiwi
Shihan
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 107
#35 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by OffInBed
I chatted with Annakin, and he said that he didn't even know what the fuck was going on, and he's not used to having to block lows.
btw if I beat hiim I would have placed top 16 T_T


This says it all. He didnt know what you were doing but guess who won and who losted?

Everyone's favorite punching bag again, Feng.

Let me analyze it for you. Feng is strong in mix ups and pokes. He can be annoying when he goes crazy with mixups. But in the end, chipping 3% here and there vs jacks 70-90% juggle damage? Thats just not gonna work.

He can make 10 mistakes and it would cost him half the health bar.
You only need to make 2 mistakes and you have lost the match.

Thats the power of having high damage. About 80% of the cast has this advantage. The other 20% including Feng automatically have this DISadvantage. It sucks.

This is why turtling with Paul and Jack works. Because they can wait for an opening to pounce 70% of the bar.

Especially in a game like T6 where everything is about juggles and taking your opponent to the wall. From there its just a guessing game. Guess correctly, and you live with small health bar (to do what?). Guess incorrectly and youre gonna get pummeled again.

Playing with feng can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.
OffInBed
TEKKEN CHICKEN
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2221
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: OffInBed
#36 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kiwi
This says it all. He didnt know what you were doing but guess who won and who losted?

Everyone's favorite punching bag again, Feng.

Let me analyze it for you.

I am stupid as hell, and have really.. REALLY bad insight on Tekken, and I will talk percentages and numbers with no meaning or value whatsoever, just to try and sound smart and make my points seem valid.



eh.. you know what? I've come to the conclusion that you have terrible opinions.


First of all, Annakin is better than me. He has WAAYY more tourney experience, that was my first, and I didn't pick up Tekken til T5 anyways. If I had kept going with random shenanigans and spamming db4, I would have done better than what I did, not because it's legit, good strategy, it's because it's BAD to play that way, and Annakin wouldn't have expected that in a tourney. I still probably wouldn't have even one. I tried to out poke him myself, sure, it's easier to do with Jack, but at the time, I wasn't really ready for that style of game play anyways. I mostly went to the tourney for experience, and I didn't even expect to get as far as I did.

Feng is an amazing character, he has moves for every situation, every style of game play that approaches him, he has something that'll get around it. He's NOT as punishable as you say he is, no character is really punishable, it's only the player that makes characters punishable or not. If you're running around spamming B1+2 and f3~4, yes...you will get hurt very bad.

Feng really doesn't have a bad match up. I don't know what you mean by "everyone's favorite punching bag". I don't know what YOU'VE been doing with Feng, I can't even comprehend the areas of which you have failed Feng for you to develop such a terrible opinion, but Feng, as is any character (fucking Raven won a tourney in italy ffs) is solid. Sure, it may be harder to win with some more than others, but your comprehension of what Feng is or isn't, is just bad. You should feel very terrible about yourself, not just as a human being, but as a person who plays Tekken, and projects their shitty opinions in a thread with people who actually took the time to learn the character.


I thought you were an intelligible gentleman, but apparently I was wrong. Until you and I 1v1, or I watch you OBLITERATE a very formidable Feng user, everything you post will be considered utter crap, and should be disregarded.
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Kiwi
Shihan
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 107
#37 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by OffInBed
eh.. you know what? I've come to the conclusion that you have terrible opinions.


First of all, Annakin is better than me. He has WAAYY more tourney experience, that was my first, and I didn't pick up Tekken til T5 anyways. If I had kept going with random shenanigans and spamming db4, I would have done better than what I did, not because it's legit, good strategy, it's because it's BAD to play that way, and Annakin wouldn't have expected that in a tourney. I still probably wouldn't have even one. I tried to out poke him myself, sure, it's easier to do with Jack, but at the time, I wasn't really ready for that style of game play anyways. I mostly went to the tourney for experience, and I didn't even expect to get as far as I did.

Feng is an amazing character, he has moves for every situation, every style of game play that approaches him, he has something that'll get around it. He's NOT as punishable as you say he is, no character is really punishable, it's only the player that makes characters punishable or not. If you're running around spamming B1+2 and f3~4, yes...you will get hurt very bad.

Feng really doesn't have a bad match up. I don't know what you mean by "everyone's favorite punching bag". I don't know what YOU'VE been doing with Feng, I can't even comprehend the areas of which you have failed Feng for you to develop such a terrible opinion, but Feng, as is any character (fucking Raven won a tourney in italy ffs) is solid. Sure, it may be harder to win with some more than others, but your comprehension of what Feng is or isn't, is just bad. You should feel very terrible about yourself, not just as a human being, but as a person who plays Tekken, and projects their shitty opinions in a thread with people who actually took the time to learn the character.


I thought you were an intelligible gentleman, but apparently I was wrong. Until you and I 1v1, or I watch you OBLITERATE a very formidable Feng user, everything you post will be considered utter crap, and should be disregarded.


You need to learn how to read basic English. I never stated that Anakin is a terrible player. I think he is rock solid.

I never stated he didnt know what he was doing. The OTHER guy did. And since the other poster personally talked to Anakin about it and Anakin himself confessed into not having a clue what the other guy was doing, Im inclined to believe him more than I would believe some guy (you) whose best strategy is to spam Fengs db4 and thinks he is invincible.

Your other comments dont even warrant a response as that is how dumb they are. Keep believe what you want. But guess what, in the end Feng is still rated just C. Thats bottom 20%. And guess what again, I didnt wrote that list. So there are obviously more people who share my opinion than they share yours.

I would love to see you spam db4 and watch how the pro's would "not expect" it. I think you wouldnt even last the preliminaries. The first time you get blocked is when you lose 90% of your healthbar.

Last edited by Kiwi on Oct 17th, 2011 at 16:19

adipati
AdvG thatgarlicguy
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 625
From: Indonesia
PSN: thatgarlicguy
#38 “Quote” Edit Post
i'm gonna ask you guys.

what is the most important thing in Tekken?
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OffInBed
TEKKEN CHICKEN
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2221
From: USA Massachusetts
PSN: OffInBed
#39 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by adipati
i'm gonna ask you guys.

what is the most important thing in Tekken?


Punishment.
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green)Lei
do it like old water
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1269
From: Germany
PSN: GreenLei
#40 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by OffInBed
Punishment.


not by far! Kaz is the best punisher in the game, so what?

Originally posted by adipati
i'm gonna ask you guys.

what is the most important thing in Tekken?


d?you mean the skill the human player must have or the tools the character must have?
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