WISHLIST: Yoshimitsu in Tekken 7

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lawlhalla
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#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazu-Yoshi-girl
Anyway, I hope we're not talking here that low spins are bad. Low spins are one of Yoshi's best low moves, quite a good damage for a semi-safe and long-ranged low (d/b+3,3,4), with ability to mess more against impatient opponents.

With Yoshi, all things can be beaten with ease, but here comes the player's brain in action. Even if opponent knows all such anti-Yoshi-strats, Yoshi player with a good amount of creativity will mess in the game despite any common sense. And that's what I love about this character.

But let's get back to the wishlist, folks!

and thats also yoshi's main weakness imo.
when i encounter someone who doesn't know yoshi at all, all my mind tricks and creativity go to waste.
amphreded
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
Here's my view on Yoshi's FC lows:

d/b+3s
- Is a good move that's essential to Yoshi. High crush, anti-SS, semi-safe and ok damage. Unseeable despite it's slow startup
- Essential when opponent turtles and like to do a lot of spacing
- However, against pitbullers this move become less effective. Quick mids or worst, general d/f+2 can beat it into longer combo. Also could be crushed by hopkicks.
- The FC Mixup after d/b+3,3 is imo, not very good. It's good only if your opponent is really defensive. Even d/b+3,3 both hit Yoshi is still at a lot of disadvantage. Once in a while this might by a good idea, but it's really easy to launch Yoshi or interrupt him with mids after. The risk/reward ration is simply isn't good enough. I don't disregard it altogether since it's actually useful to pressure opponent but use this very sparingly or with the right conditions (opponent likes to turtle, or if d/b+3,3 hits on max distance which create space, then you can backdash to try to whiff punish hopkicks, etc.)

FC,d/f+4
- ok move in BR, but I agree with Noodle this will be much MUCH better if it's only -12f on block but gives no CH launch. Imo, I'd think it will be around -14f instead if there's a change. -12f for relatively fast low with good range, anti-ss and total high crush seems a little too good.
- I don't think it will ever go back to DR status. Like Tenshi said, with ff+4 to have old DR property back Yoshi's FC will get off balance.


Back on wish list:
well I already posted a lot of ideas in Future Yoshi thread but here's some I'd like to emphasize again. Apology if this is repeated or similar to any of your ideas.

Here's what I think Yoshi should get:
1) Ability to alternate 1SS / NSS prior to the round. NSS is good but isn't overpowering, but the fact that Yoshi requires time to get into the stance diminishes the chance to use it. At least make Yoshi auto-blocks when he transits to NSS like Alisa transition to DES.
2) Better block punishment. 4,4 can be made faster. Back in DR it was 12f and it was alright. Give him a new string with 3,1 which is 3 into left jab. NC, 30 dmg, +1 on hit, neutral on block, high high, second hit can be ducked if first hit is blocked, 13f. 3 by itself would be no longer give KND on CH.
3) Slightly better anti-SS tool from standing. Right now we have u/f+4, f+3, d/b+3,3 but they are a little lacking. u/f+4 is too risky if enemy is a pitbuller since it can be jabbed out into longer juggles, f+3 is high and unsafe, d/b+3,3 is quite slow and doesn't give momentum.
4) Better anti-pitbull. Bring back down jab - I suggest current d+1 change into u/b+1 to make d+1 slot free for sit jab. Flash upgrade in someway would be nice too
5) Upgrade his low. d/b+4 could use more damage and/or ground opponent on CH, make it -13f instead to balance out the upgrade. d/b+3,3 also a bit more damage or a little faster. FC,d/f+4 like Noodle said. d/f+1+2,2 is fine as it is.

He also needs better transitions between stance. The ones we have right now are actually pretty good if executed with plan, but I feel there's still too few options to get into stance thus we couldn't utilize them fully.
1) KIN+3~U. KIN+3 to DGF. Make the recovery of KIN+3 on HIT better so when Yoshi gets into DGF Yoshi is about +1f.
2) KIN b+3+4. KIN to MED
3) KIN f+2~3+4. KIN f+2 to MED (he spins while doing KIN f+2 so animation seems very possible)
4) bb+1+4~1 *hold 1*. Sword spin then hold 1 a bit to make the sword disappear. Recovers NSS
5) ws+1,1+2 / ws+1,1,1+2 / ws+1,1,1,1+2. ws+1 series to KIN feint. Again, animation seems possible
6) 3~D/B. Single 3 into Bad Breath stance
7) backflip~U. generic backflip (u,ub~U) Yoshi goes into DGF half way of backflip.
8) KIN 2,1+2~D. Into FLE
9) FC,d/f+4~d+3+4. Low sweep into IND fast transition.
10) FDFT 3+4. Yoshi body springs up & toward opponent from down position to MED. I.e. after FLE+2 blocked
11) FDFA 3+4. Yoshi body springs up & away from opponent to MED facing front position
12) d/b+3,3...~1+2. d/b+3 series into KIN. Yoshi should be around -3f in KIN if d/b+3,3 didn't get blocked
13) DGF+4~1+2. DGF+4 to KIN
14) Bad Breath Flip ~U. Flip midway to DGF
15) MED Flip ~U. Also to DGF
16) IND+1+2. IND spin, Yoshi disappears and reappears in DGF
17) f+3+4 no longer transits directly to FLE run, but recovers standing like NSS. But if you hold F, then FLE.
18) 2,1~D/B. 2,1 feints into Bad Breath
19) d/b+1,1~D/B. d/b+1,1 feints into Bad Breath
20) d/b+1~B. d/b+1 recovers BT
21) u/f+3+4,b+1,3+4~1+2. cancel to DGF
22) u/f+3+4,b+1,3+4~d+1+2. FLE
23) u/f+3+4,b+1,3+4~d+3+4. IND
24) u/f+3+4,b+1,4~U. cancel to DGF halfway of flip
25) 1+3 (after Yoshi finish stabbing animation), 2+3 to go into NSS (sheaths sword)
26) qcb+1+2~U. qcb+1+2 to DGF. Yoshi jumps after dealing damage to opponent that's when he does to DGF
27) d/f+2,1+2. Single d/f+2 to KIN. Looks like Yoshi is going to do d/f+2,2 but instead of second hit he goes KIN instead
28) u+3+4~1+2. u+3+4 feints to DGF (Yoshi disappears then reappears in DGF)
29) u/f+3+4,u+3+4~1+2. Another feint to DGF
30) anytime after any d/b+2 - d/b+2~d+3+4. d/b+2 into IND
31) DGF+3+4 (success throw) hold U to make Yoshi gets into DGF during jump back animation
32) FLE walk 3 (success throw shift) hold U to make Yoshi into DGF during jump back animation
33) NSS KIN+1 hold D to recover FC
34) ws+3,1+2. Looks the same as ws+3,2 but while Yoshi is about to hit down with second hit, he feints into KIN instead
35) NSS Suicide - press u+1+2 to reappear in DGF, d+3+4 IND, 1+2 KIN, 3+4 MED, D for RC, B+3+4 for BT, 2+3 for 1SS, d/b+1+2 for Bad Breath
36) IND Vacuum Dance to also have a choice of what stance you'd like to reappear on like above
37) ff+3+4,1+2~U / IND+3~U - feint into DGF. I.e. IND+3~U would deal no damage, instead put Yoshi in DGF right in front of enemy
38) ff+1+2~U - incomplete ff+1+2 into BT DGF (I'll write later on ideas on moves you can do in BT DGF)
39) KIN d+1+2 to FLE. Well everyone mentions this already
40) KIN d+3+4 IND
41) KIN u+1+2 DGF. Old KIN to DGF fly forward transition still exists with KIN u/f+1+2
42) KIN f+1+2 to forward ROLL
NoodleHead
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Robo-mitsu
I know sword sweep is for fc mix ups. I even raised that point myself in defense of manji lows: "you have to mix them up with different numbers of 3's and throw out the occasional 4. I get follow up sword sweeps and ss 1's off of truncated manji lows quite often."

then your opponent really has no idea how to fight against yoshi. d/b+3's into Fc d/f+1 is too slow for players in the east coast of US.


It was Noodlehead who argued against it saying " d/b+3's into Fc mixup is way too slow to be effective." So actually your siding with me against Noodle on this point.

Not sure if you watched the recent vid Inca posted about fuzzy guard, but after two d/b+3's, a quick d/b~n will destroy all mixup you have from there. Adding the fact that the recovery time from any stopped d/b+3 is slow, your opponent has upper hand against you if you do more than 2 d/b+3's, and he would be perfectly safe when you did only 2 d/b+3's. Unless your opponent is sleeping on you or you are playing online, d/b+3's into Fc mixups are fair at best, and limited all around.



d/f+4 is quite a bit faster than sword sweep in both start up and animation. It's fast enough to catch a lot of stuff at mid range but not really at close range. Even if you catch them with ch once it can really change the shape of a fight in your favour.

Fc d/f+4 on CH does not change the shape of a fight in your favor. a d/f+2,2 block punish, f,f+4 on whiff punish, and u/f+3 on low/semi-high crush does.

Also about Fc d/f+4. By itself it's definitely seeable, but when done in the Fc mixup post BT d+1_2_4, it's a true i17 (Paul's demo-man class). However in a Fc mixup game, your opponent would like to block or hopkick instead of standing there to attack you w/ their feet on the ground. In this case, CH fc d/f+4 doesn't happen as frequent as you like.

and have you ever landed CH Fc d/f+4 at max range? I'd rather land a normal Fc d/f+4 at max range any day so I can at least apply pressure, instead of having nothing guaranteed after popping my opponent far away w/ nothing solid and powerful afterward.

Last edited by NoodleHead on Jun 2nd, 2010 at 20:40

NoodleHead
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#24 “Quote” Edit Post
sorry for the double post, but here's an addition of my wishlist.


BT/med are in need of upgrade:

- BT 3 and MED 3 launches like DR. They were not broken to start w/.

- MED (and even IND) needs to up w/ their health recoverying. Adding health bar to 195 pts(?) w/o upgrading the hp recovery is kinda stupid. The minimal health gain is almost not worth it.

- BT d/b+2's hit-box and travel range returns to DR status. I don't recall ever hit my opponents w/ BT d/b+2's.

- BT bad stomach into 3_4 should be -4 on block, w/ opp recover in crouch, instead of -13.

---------------------------------------

Oh btw, do you guys happen to like the idea of Fc d/f+4 cancel?

Fc d/f+4~b - Yoshi does the sweep but cancel in BT, similar to Ling's ss sweep cancel.
Inca
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
make the qcb,f+2 on a correct throw escape, give yoshi health. like it should.

and bring his sc4 foot sword stab, that in sc4 can transition into his old d+1+2 or into FLEA
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Robo-mitsu
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#26 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazu-Yoshi-girl
Anyway, I hope we're not talking here that low spins are bad. Low spins are one of Yoshi's best low moves, quite a good damage for a semi-safe and long-ranged low (d/b+3,3,4), with ability to mess more against impatient opponents.

With Yoshi, all things can be beaten with ease, but here comes the player's brain in action. Even if opponent knows all such anti-Yoshi-strats, Yoshi player with a good amount of creativity will mess in the game despite any common sense. And that's what I love about this character.

But let's get back to the wishlist, folks!


100% agreed!
Originally posted by NoodleHead
then your opponent really has no idea how to fight against yoshi. d/b+3's into Fc d/f+1 is too slow for players in the east coast of US.


Not sure if you watched the recent vid Inca posted about fuzzy guard, but after two d/b+3's, a quick d/b~n will destroy all mixup you have from there. Adding the fact that the recovery time from any stopped d/b+3 is slow, your opponent has upper hand against you if you do more than 2 d/b+3's, and he would be perfectly safe when you did only 2 d/b+3's. Unless your opponent is sleeping on you or you are playing online, d/b+3's into Fc mixups are fair at best, and limited all around.



Fc d/f+4 on CH does not change the shape of a fight in your favor. a d/f+2,2 block punish, f,f+4 on whiff punish, and u/f+3 on low/semi-high crush does.

Also about Fc d/f+4. By itself it's definitely seeable, but when done in the Fc mixup post BT d+1_2_4, it's a true i17 (Paul's demo-man class). However in a Fc mixup game, your opponent would like to block or hopkick instead of standing there to attack you w/ their feet on the ground. In this case, CH fc d/f+4 doesn't happen as frequent as you like.


and have you ever landed CH Fc d/f+4 at max range? I'd rather land a normal Fc d/f+4 at max range any day so I can at least apply pressure, instead of having nothing guaranteed after popping my opponent far away w/ nothing solid and powerful afterward.


I've seen d/b 3's into fc mix up at high level play. It's where I got the idea. It works often for me, and apparently others as well. Just saying that my opponents don't know the match up doesn't impress me much. Maybe if you would look past frames, Yoshi's weakness, and think creatively about mix ups, his strength, you might think more of manji lows.

Last edited by Robo-mitsu on Jun 3rd, 2010 at 11:56

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NoodleHead
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
HAHA, well, you can continue using that move as your mixup starter. There's no reason why I should tell you not to. We all play this game differently, and that makes all of our play style unique.

cheers.
Robo-mitsu
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by NoodleHead
HAHA, well, you can continue using that move as your mixup starter. There's no reason why I should tell you not to. We all play this game differently, and that makes all of our play style unique.

cheers.


That's what I like about Yoshi! If there was an orthodox way of playing, I wouldn't enjoy playing him!
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Kazu-Yoshi-girl
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#29 “Quote” Edit Post
FC,d/f+4 cancel is a briliant idea! I would love having something like this. More cancels, more cancels.

Bad Breath is also heavily unchanged since Tekken 5.0. No new moves, it has some potential IMO.

I would also love to see the SC roll in Tekken. But wait... Bob took it from Yoshi

Another point in my wishlist: A low-mid move that juggles/causes KND on CH. Like Law's d+3+4,3, Dragunov's d+4,4... On Ki-charge, such move opens nice possibilities.

Last edited by Kazu-Yoshi-girl on Jun 4th, 2010 at 11:32

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NoodleHead
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#30 “Quote” Edit Post
Not sure if you have played VF before, but I can see from Bad breath into this move is definitely doable. close range mid launcher that's punishable (-12~-14) on block (recovers in BT, temporary airborne face down, feet toward. On whiff, opponent's d/f+1 can pop you into juggle, but w/ face-down, feet-toward status in the air.)

The commend can be BB~ 3+4, or one of the kick buttons while the other kick button being the old flip back move.

-------------------------------------------------------

About f+3+4~b... I like how they did it in SC4. f+3+4~b goes into meditation heal, or press ~f again to resume the f+3+4 suicide. The running back and forth at mid/long range can be a good movement/spacing tool. One thing for sure though, f+3+4~b cancel should be much faster than what we can do now. It's too slow at the moment to be used effectively.
fastlegs(GBR)
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#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Just going to add my 5 cents.

Another new stance would be nice, to make us put more strategic play into our games.

Also don't hate me for the next thing I'm going to say Yoshi fans, but I don't really like NSS much. So I would want that taken away or made a option at the character select screen or something along those lines to have or not.

d/b+3+3+3+3+3 should have a little more damage points and please don't shorten the range Namco.

Also a new grab mid air move for Yoshi to use in a juggle after B!

Ok end of 5 cents.

Last edited by fastlegs(GBR) on Jun 19th, 2010 at 16:50

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amphreded
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#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Some ideas on Kincho stance:

KIN N - auto-throw counter. if opponent tries to throw Yoshi while he's in KIN, he'll lift opponent up and throws him behind for 30 dmg. Switch side
KIN 2+3 - switching between 1SS and NSS in KIN
KIN u+1+2 - DGF
KIN d+3+4 - IND
KIN d+1+2 - FLE
KIN d/b+1+2 - Bad Breath
KIN b+3+4 - MED
KIN ff - initiating Roll (i.e. same as FLE roll). Recover crouching
KIN B - Yoshi moves slowly backward, i.e. the same speed as KIN F we have right now

KIN b+1+4 - Yoshi takes jumps backward for considerable distance and lands in KIN again

KIN u+1+4_d+1+4 - Yoshi jumps to the side (u+1+4 away from screen, d+1+4 toward screen), avoiding many kind of moves, though take recovery time. Think of these as Alisa's DES u+3+4_d+3+4

KIN d - Yoshi ducks momentarily, avoiding all highs. During this animation he can input:
1) f+1+2 = initiating Roll (i.e. same as FLE roll). Recover crouching
2) 2 = he does the second hit of d+2,2. Think of it as KIN ws+2, Yoshi ducks then do the move. Recover standing
3) 3,2 = same as ws+3,2
4) 4 = normal ws+4
5) 1,1,1,1_1,2,d/b+2..._1,1,b+3_4 = same as ws+1 series
6) 1,1+2_1,1,1+2_1,1,1,1+2 = ws+1 into KIN again. I.e. for KIN d, 1,1+2, Yoshi will duck during KIN, then does a ws+1,1, but instead of doing the second hit of ws+1,1, he'll go into KIN instead.
7) d/f = going into KIN qcf motion (see below)

KIN d/f - From KIN into qcf motion. He can't do this from standing but only from KIN. After the qcf motion, if Yoshi hasn't input anything by then, he automatically recovers in KIN. You can press D during the motion to have him recover crouching instead. During qcf motion he can input:
1) 1,1,1(~2+3) = same as KIN+1 series
2) d/f+1(~1+2) = cd+1 (KIN)
3) 2 = mid gut punch with small range by itself. -7 block, 18 dmg, no tracking. +1 on hit, escapable stun on CH
4) 3,2 = ws+3,2
5) 4 = ws+4
6) 1+2 = into KIN 1+2
7) d+1 = low sword cut, just like BT d+1 but using from forward instead. High crush. See also KIN d+1 later
8) f+1+2 = guardbreak push, see KIN f+1+2 below
9) u/f+4 = into u/f+4 jumping kick
10) u/f+3+4 = into u/f+3+4 series
11) Keep holding D/F = he does endless qcf waves until you stop holding D/F

KIN d+1 - low sword cut just like BT d+1 but coming right out from KIN. -14f, can't be parried.

KIN f+1+2 - guardbreak push/shove. Deals no damage. Takes around 14f to come out but has good range, and has minor tracking both way. +0 on block, +3 on hit, +7 on CH. Recovers in KIN

KIN 3~U - to DGF

KIN f+2~3+4_1+2 - KIN f+2 to MED or KIN again

KIN u+3+4 - same as standing u+3+4

KIN u/f+3+4 - KIN into u/f+3+4 series

KIN u/f+1+2 - front flip into double swords hit. B! Think of Alisa's DES u/f+1+2 but with faster recovery and doesn't jump as high.
Robo-mitsu
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#33 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazu-Yoshi-girl
FC,d/f+4 cancel is a briliant idea! I would love having something like this. More cancels, more cancels.

Bad Breath is also heavily unchanged since Tekken 5.0. No new moves, it has some potential IMO.

I would also love to see the SC roll in Tekken. But wait... Bob took it from Yoshi



This! My kingdom for a SC roll in Tekken 7! Can you imagine the mix up pressure!?
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NoodleHead
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#34 “Quote” Edit Post
@Fastlegs: Many of us have already discussed about why Fc d/f+4 shouldn't be a launcher on normal. Therefore, the next best thing is to lose its launcher property all together for a safer recovery.

@Amph: KIN being throw reversal is cool, and the animation for the throw reversal could be a good place where he could use his swordplay (similar to his KIN 1,1 animation on hit) when activated.

Kin 1 should change its property though. It's way too slow to be used easily.
Robo-mitsu
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#35 “Quote” Edit Post
If fc d/f+4 had juggle on normal hit he wouldn't be Yoshimitsu, he'd be Brokemitsu! Heh heh. I think the best suggestion so far is making fc d/f+4 cancelable as a possible replacement for ch juggle. This is a better compensation buff than making it safer as it would retain his mix up options. I love the options with u/f+2 cancels so more cancels in general would be dandy!

Moving past fc d/f+4, I'd love to see the T6.0 WS 2,1,3 return. Br version is a pretty sorry trade. Sure it has lots of block stun, but the mix up isn't great and the wall pressure he had with the original was insane! It wasn't THAT broken. I don't see why Yoshi loses that, whereas Bryan retains his wall pressure. Still, I don't think it will ever come back
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fastlegs(GBR)
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#36 “Quote” Edit Post
Recovered.

Still think we need a low juggle starter other then FC d/f+1, that is safe as possible. ( I do realise not all juggle starters are going to be safe. )
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NoodleHead
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#37 “Quote” Edit Post
well, Fc d/f+1 is fine by itself, considering that it's a great low w/ setup purposes. It might be slow, but it evades linear mid/special mid, so if you do set it up right, it's a very nasty attack.

However... there's one thing we all forgot to mention...


Return Fc d/f+1's range back to DR status

Seriously, I swear that the range of Fc d/f+1 was shortened relative to other attacks' range.
Kazu-Yoshi-girl
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#38 “Quote” Edit Post
Yeah, FC,d/f+1 was shortened because the backdash is poorer in Tekken 6. But Namco exaggered with it a bit too much.

NSS is cool, Fastlegs It's just the prototype thing, similar to Yoshi's Tekken 4 flash. Namco just thought "Okay, let's see how they will like it". I like it! (If we didn't, they would just turn the story "Yoshi's sword regained balance and Yoshi doesn't need additional sword anymore") But there should be a lot, and I mean TONS of switches back and forth NSS, while standing, in juggles, and so on. Yoshi should be more mobile, he has lost his swiftness and mobility a lot, he feels sometimes heavy and vulnerable.

I mean: Look at his winning animations: he's a cunning, stealthy and blazing fast beast, yet playing him doesn't really feel that way.

I'm all for more cancels, better BT game (why MED has lost mobility?), better KIN flexibility (I'm pretty sure all characters have a cancel out of stance like ~d/b, yet Yoshi doesn't have? Even this little detail would make a HUGE difference), more and more cancels and more and more "stance dance".
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fastlegs(GBR)
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#39 “Quote” Edit Post
humm funny you mention the mobile stuff, I felt like it tonight when I was playing AC. Yoshi just felt too heavy for me to get control with him.

and yes the range on FC d/f+1 was shortened, but FC d/f+4 range makes up for that, just too bad it's not unblockable lol, but yeah fix the backdash crap to get our range back.
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amphreded
Iron Fist God
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1960
From: Thailand
PSN: amphreded
#40 “Quote” Edit Post
Nood - yeah I think KIN definitely needs some kind of innate ability. His other stances all have special property in one way or another - DGF low crush, IND gains health and crush, MED gains health, FLE has sword damage, Bad Breath high crush - only KIN doesn't have anything special. He also needs extra movement from KIN, I think if he can jump back and lands in KIN again and ducking momentary in KIN those would be great.

For sword sweep, I think the range is nerfed because in T6 you can now do full juggle with it. Returning it to DR's range would be great, though if Namco does that I suspect they'll tone down the juggle we could do.

Throw ideas:

1) KIN 1+3, KIN f+1+3, KIN 2+4, KIN f+2+4 which are basic throws from KIN
2) KIN f+2+3 which is his qcf+2+3 throw
3) DGF f+2+3 which is qcf+2+3 throw from DGF, recovers in DGF on hit, whiff, break
4) KIN f+1+4, a 1+2 break throw from KIN. Animation could be something like Yoshi steps on opponent's shoulders, jump over him while using sword to slash backward while on air. 40 dmg or slightly more, switch side
5) IND 1+2, Yoshi hops forward in IND position and grabs opponent legs, pulling legs forward so opponent fall into KND position. Works only against standing opponent, unbreakable but does minor damage (around 8), opponent floored and Yoshi recovers in IND
6) FLE f+2+3 which is qcf+2+3 throw from FLE, recovers in DGF on hit, whiff, break

For qcf+2 and qcb,f+2 throws, I'd rather have these changes:
1) If opponent successfully break qcf+2, you don't lose any health, rather the opponent just blocks away your hand (i.e. normal throw break where both players do lose anything)
2) qcf+2 to have a less obvious animation and make the throw escape widow shorter, since right now it's easy to break it. Reduce the health gain/loss from 22 dmg to 18 dmg instead to balance the upgrade.
3) qcb,f+2 to have a different property altogether

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