WISHLIST: Yoshimitsu in Tekken 7

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Kazu-Yoshi-girl
a.k.a Tenshimitsu
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2007
From: Poland
PSN: Tenshimitsu
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
We've got a hint that Tekken 7 is in production stage!

http://sdtekken.com/2010/05/27/get-...the-7th-battle/

What is your wishlist as for Tekken 7 Yoshi?
Post your ideas here.

Similar threads (copy-paste your posts if you like, add more ideas that surely had emerged):

Future Yoshi
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...threadid=112984

Bandai is poison
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...threadid=114801
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Inca
(=' 3 ')=
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1524
From: USA Florida
PSN: xxIncaxx
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
since t7 was kinda sort of but not really announced officially, guess I'll post my ideas.


issue one he needs more moves and transitions into his stances.

needs a way to handle rushdown.

and changes to the moves he has now.


Stance Changes

FLEA

d - is his duck animation we have now, but if you hold D he should stay down till you release or he should stay down longer than he does now. Instead of the silly looking rapid ducking animation he has now.

FLE walk 3 should shift to an attack throw vs airborne targets

FLE walk 2 should be some type of mid hit, perferably a gut stun or a quick poke that's even frames on hit

FLE walk 1 should be a walk into roll


KIN

Should Naturally crush Highs

KIN u_d should be sidesteps

KIN b+1+4 should be a reversal, similar to mitsurugi's relic auto reversal.

Add Throw options for KIN. KIN 1+3 / 2+4 And animate them like Mitsurugi's throws from his relic stance.

KIN f+1 should be a forward roll

KIN d/b should be the cancel for the stance, recovers in FC

KIN d+1+2 should transition into FLEA

KIN d+3+4 should transition into IND


IND

IND f+1+2 should be like yoshi's duck animation from sc4, where he ducks to the floor for a lil second, avoiding mids. During this animation give him a couple of attacks, the funky low headdive he has in sc4 IND f+1+2,1+2 or a low reversal, IND f+1+2,3+4

IND d+2 should be a low sword swipe from SC4, make it blockable, so it's not abusable.

IND d+1 should be a forward roll out of IND

IND u+1+2 should transition into FLEA

IND d+1+4 should be a IND suicide, that hits grounded if yoshi is bt. =3 always wanted that once I saw he had it in SC4.


DGF

DGF u1+2 should transition to the deathcopter.
B does the crossover
D does the dropdown, with 1+2 cancel into DGF
d+1+4 does the aerial suicide
3+4 does the backflip upon landing make it a jf 3 so yoshi doesn't fall on his face like in sc4. =3 and not lose life but auto super charge or something.

DGF d+1+2 should transition into FLEA

DGF d+3+4 should transition into IND


ROLL

The Main idea behind the trooper roll is mainly to solve the problem yoshi has against rush down opponents, which in reality he has a hell of a time vs them. The built in rolls from commonly used moves will allow yoshi to keep momentum or at least have a way to stop the momentum from shifting too harshly too quickly. The built high crush and possible mid crush ability of the move will make opponents not favor a heavy rushdown mindless poke assault on yoshi, but rather have to think out a poking game.

The trooper Roll should have moves built in, and some transitions. But it should be another way for yoshi to open up his mixup game, from FC. I like the input that was brought up by Amp. where it's a FC input, FC d/f+1+2.

Make roll crush highs the entire time, and crush certain mids during the beginning animation. The roll Should recover in FC.

Roll 1 roll into mid hit that's + frames on hit and nothing too major on block like -5 or -6, or a high hit that's +frames on block.

Roll 2 roll into foot poke with the sword. A 2 input would make it so it's at least blockable. Make it hit grounded opponents. CH should knockdown or give a foot hopping stun Zafina's CH d+4 does.

Roll 3 should be a homing mid kick, that's safe on block like most homing mids.

Roll 4 should be the roo kick.

Roll 1+2 should transition into KIN

Roll u+1+2 should transition into FLEA

Roll 3+4 should transition into IND


Bad Breath

BB 1 forward roll

BB 2 poison mist

BB 3 back flip

BB 4 a mid kick, like his f+4

BB 3+4 transition into MED

BB 1+2 transition into KIN

BB 1+3_2+4 throw options out of BB


Meditation stance is fine to be honest


New Moves

make KIN 1+2 a standalone move. Input should be 3~2 or something along those lines. Give the option to end in BT by holding b or something.

More diverse moves in NSS, make it seem like a new stance, instead of what it is now.

Add a good farther reaching 1 hit bound move in NSS. since yoshi really has none. u/f+4 misses in a ton of combos and d+1 has no range.

Let yoshi have access to his old ff+4 and old f+2 only in NSS.


Changes to old moves

make the current d/b+1,1 change input to d+1,1
and remove the current d+1, but keep the death slice a held d+1.

by doing this yoshi can get his old d/b+1 low jab. IMPORTANT

1,1 at least even frames on hit. none of this - frame stuff on hit. Also add a 2+3 option after 1,1 so we can get a safe transition into NSS.

make 1,2 not -9 on block keep it around -5/-6 to keep it from being too abusable.

Give cd+1 a 2+3 transition after it too.
Same with d/b+1,1

make d/f+2,2 a hit confirm.

ff+3 track left

d+2,1+2 goes into KIN
d+2,1 goes into forward roll

cd+1,1 goes into roll

b+2,1,1 goes into roll

ws+3,1 should be the ws+3 into a roll

ws+1,1,f+1 should be a ws+1,1 into a roll

ws+2,b+1+2 should be a ws+2 into a BT roll for stylish getaways. =3

make the bt FLEA input not so strict, it's kinda rediculous how the timing is right now. true 1 frame inputs are not fun. lol

d/b+4 should be +3/+4 on hit, and maybe add a small window where it crushes highs.
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Big_Daddy_Whyt
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Better Customization Better frames Just a better character period. Nuff said
lawlhalla
5th Dan
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 53
From: Netherlands
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
when ending a round in NSS staying in NSS.
Robo-mitsu
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Joined: May 2010
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From: Scotland
PSN: DemonKingLaharl
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
I can't wait to see what they do with T7 Yoshi! T6 Yoshi was such a departure from T5 that I wonder if he'll be reinvented every game, just like his physical appearance, lol. I adore T6 Yoshi's play-style so I would like to see a similar philosophy return, but I agree with Inca that he badly needs more stance transitions and something to deal with pit bulls. In terms of the latter, I think all he needs is a DR status flash and a crouch jab and bob's your uncle.
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Inca summed it all i guess nothing else to say. except wishing for the return of his old d\f+3,1 which was faster in animation which allowes me to to change the 1 into ~ say ... U\F+3 as a part of his old mind games which i can't do now in BR
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NoodleHead
will touch u gently
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17046
From: USA North Carolina
PSN: TastyPPJuice
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
I personally think that Inca's FLE D might be a bit too cheap.... here's my suggestions on it... Be one or the other

1. FLE D - Perma-duck version

- Permanent duck when held.
- Drains health after a short window
- When hit from FLE, CH damage.


2. FLE D - Hybrid version

- Have the same initial animation as the current FLE D
- Recovers at the level halfway from the ground, making ALL high misses, and auto-parry the low
- When hit from FLE, CH damage.

-------------------------------------------

Here are some of my other takes:

- FLE walk should cut down its animation in half. The recovery frame is just too damn stupid to be used.

- FLE walk 3 should be made w/ JF... FLE walk 3:3. The animation would look like Yoshi completes the kick if it was on hit, but similar to Ling's f,f+4:4 animation on block. Save recovery at distance.

- IND recovery goes back to DR times. The current windup time is too long.

- DGF-> IND transition.

- IND -> FLE transition.

- Flash back to DR properties... otherwise BT flash and the general flash strat from TTT would be a waste.

- The good ol' u/f+4 into flash bnb was killed due to the recovery and initiation frames being "corrected" twice in response to the 10 frame jab. As a result, instead of beating all the non-jabs, now Yoshi cannot beat anything faster than i15. I'd say that u/f+4 needs to be fixed to be -7 instead of -9.

- Kin should either crush all highs, or auto blocks high and mid. Kin needs a quick jab move that goes back to Kin, and is safe on block.

- BT b+3_4's should be able to be done w/o buffering.

- DGF should be able to hover over grounded opponent, or opponents w/ low stances (AOP/RLX/etc.). In addition, DGF into FLE transition should be considered as an attack against grounded opponents.

- Flash out of DGF against fast attacks.

- Reversed shark attack after 3+4,"1+2" or IND "3." So instead of finishing it w/ a roo kick, yoshi head-dives backward, resulting BT at mid range.

- Roo kick crushes all highs.

- DGF attacks should crush all lows, even during its attack animation.

- Fc d/f+4 should be ws+4 punishable instead. In return, Fc d/f+4 loses juggles on CH.

- d/f+2,2~b to cancel the second hit w/ little recovery.

- Shorten recovery of 2,1~b.

- Make d/f+3 -5 on block.
Robo-mitsu
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by NoodleHead
I personally think that Inca's FLE D might be a bit too cheap.... here's my suggestions on it... Be one or the other

1. FLE D - Perma-duck version

- Permanent duck when held.
- Drains health after a short window
- When hit from FLE, CH damage.


2. FLE D - Hybrid version

- Have the same initial animation as the current FLE D
- Recovers at the level halfway from the ground, making ALL high misses, and auto-parry the low
- When hit from FLE, CH damage.

-------------------------------------------

Here are some of my other takes:

- FLE walk should cut down its animation in half. The recovery frame is just too damn stupid to be used.

- FLE walk 3 should be made w/ JF... FLE walk 3:3. The animation would look like Yoshi completes the kick if it was on hit, but similar to Ling's f,f+4:4 animation on block. Save recovery at distance.

- IND recovery goes back to DR times. The current windup time is too long.

- DGF-> IND transition.

- IND -> FLE transition.

- Flash back to DR properties... otherwise BT flash and the general flash strat from TTT would be a waste.

- The good ol' u/f+4 into flash bnb was killed due to the recovery and initiation frames being "corrected" twice in response to the 10 frame jab. As a result, instead of beating all the non-jabs, now Yoshi cannot beat anything faster than i15. I'd say that u/f+4 needs to be fixed to be -7 instead of -9.

- Kin should either crush all highs, or auto blocks high and mid. Kin needs a quick jab move that goes back to Kin, and is safe on block.

- BT b+3_4's should be able to be done w/o buffering.

- DGF should be able to hover over grounded opponent, or opponents w/ low stances (AOP/RLX/etc.). In addition, DGF into FLE transition should be considered as an attack against grounded opponents.

- Flash out of DGF against fast attacks.

- Reversed shark attack after 3+4,"1+2" or IND "3." So instead of finishing it w/ a roo kick, yoshi head-dives backward, resulting BT at mid range.

- Roo kick crushes all highs.

- DGF attacks should crush all lows, even during its attack animation.

- Fc d/f+4 should be ws+4 punishable instead. In return, Fc d/f+4 loses juggles on CH.

- d/f+2,2~b to cancel the second hit w/ little recovery.

- Shorten recovery of 2,1~b.

- Make d/f+3 -5 on block.


There was a lot I agreed with here such as the faster flea walk, but why on earth would you want to lose juggles off of ch d/f 4!? He needs a dangerous low, otherwise they'll never duck. He already has d/b 3,3,3's as a relatively safe small risk, small reward low.
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NoodleHead
will touch u gently
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17046
From: USA North Carolina
PSN: TastyPPJuice
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
If they could have Fc d/f+4 w/ the old Fc d/f+3 properties, that'd be golden...

however, there must be some reason why they removed the move in the first place, no?

Anyway, about Fc d/f+4 and d/b+3,3,4... they are of different uses. d/b+3,3,4 gives you no momentum, whereas Fc d/f+4 on hit is +5, which is used as a setup starter. They are used in very different places. Now if they make Fc d/f+4 safer on block, then it would be a much better move to initiate your setups.
PhineBuyM3
Fujin
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 592
From: USA Texas
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
I wanna be as concise and simple as I can with my wishes to keep me from getting these big hopes.

Increased flash range-'nuff said

Sword attacks unblockable-If bamco decides to keep yoshi as weak as he is in TK7, give Yoshi players something to work with, bulldogs can't have their cake and eat it too like they currently are now in TK6.

BT3 and MED3 launch on hit they did in TK5/DR-Reverse bound does absolutely nothing.


Return of some old strings-MED3,3,d+2,ws2 and the old Ws2,1,3 backflip string.

When b+3/b+4 is done no health should be lost after the first spin.


EDIT:Reguarding the customizations, don't give us anymore naked zombie buddha outfits and give us the cyborg warrior/samurai/bug outfits.
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Kazu-Yoshi-girl
a.k.a Tenshimitsu
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2007
From: Poland
PSN: Tenshimitsu
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
As for me, I want Namco to:

For Yoshi:

Above wishlists are great, I just want to add:

1. Give Yoshi the better travel distance of his d/b+2,2,2 middle spins again, what it is now is shit.
2. Give him more freedom, more stance transitions. Especially into NSS and back.
3. Either give him more healing power or reduce the self-damage from his sidespins.
4. Reduce the disadvantage after blocked FC,d/f+4 at the cost of juggle on CH.
5. Reduce the disadvantage after blocked WS+2, make WS+2,1 delayable (WS+2>1).
6. (Probably) Give Yoshi a better, fast mid-poke (around 12 frames in speed) that isn't as linear as d/f+4. He relies on slow moves too much, his defense is almost non-existant versus pit-bullers.

NSS Yoshi:
1. Give a fast bounding move in NSS.
2. Give a faster KND/JG sweep in NSS, the "hand sweep" is too slow. Return of FC,d/f+3? With NSS Yoshi, people have no reason to duck at all.
3. Modify the punches in NSS, I have enough of 1,2,1 little range.
4. As above, more, MOAR stance transitions to NSS and backwards.

For the game:

1. Correct the in-game bugs, like mid moves going through opponent, make better hitboxes. The game is like "I know what's coming, I know how to prevent it, but I'll get hit anyway". Too many times I was to low-crush/high-crush something, but it hit me despite any game rules.
2. Make the game respond better and faster to user input, correct the buggy inability to low parry straight after quickroll.
3. Do something with the game camera. The camera switching position during power moves maybe is nice for the thrid-eye-perspective, but not for the players. The camera is bad in this game, especially after throws. The camera should chase the characters more quickly, it should avoid situations in which after throw escape the opponent is covered by my character's body and I can't see anything: whether he attempts another throw or not.
4. The ever-present minor tracking of sidestep made the sidestep moves almost obsolete. Justify the tracking of moves to all characters. One of them are easier to be sidestepped, the other ones are worse. This shouldn't be the case.
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Robo-mitsu
Champion
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
From: Scotland
PSN: DemonKingLaharl
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by NoodleHead
If they could have Fc d/f+4 w/ the old Fc d/f+3 properties, that'd be golden...

however, there must be some reason why they removed the move in the first place, no?

Anyway, about Fc d/f+4 and d/b+3,3,4... they are of different uses. d/b+3,3,4 gives you no momentum, whereas Fc d/f+4 on hit is +5, which is used as a setup starter. They are used in very different places. Now if they make Fc d/f+4 safer on block, then it would be a much better move to initiate your setups.


If you look at the frames alone d/b 3,3,3's can't give you momentum, but you have to mix them up with different numbers of 3's and throw out the occasional 4. I get follow up sword sweeps and ss 1's off of truncated manji lows quite often. Even if fc d/f 4 has more utility as a set up, you really willing to sacrifice good damage for +5 frames? It's a pretty subjective tweak and I'd rather see Namco concentrates on universal objectives like pit bull solutions rather than advocating one play style over another.
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NoodleHead
will touch u gently
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Posts: 17046
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Robo-mitsu
If you look at the frames alone d/b 3,3,3's can't give you momentum, but you have to mix them up with different numbers of 3's and throw out the occasional 4. I get follow up sword sweeps and ss 1's off of truncated manji lows quite often. Even if fc d/f 4 has more utility as a set up, you really willing to sacrifice good damage for +5 frames? It's a pretty subjective tweak and I'd rather see Namco concentrates on universal objectives like pit bull solutions rather than advocating one play style over another.


it's still not so solid. #s of d/b+3's won't change the fact that the winding time is slow enough to retaliate on reaction. After opponents sees the first two d/b+3's, all they need is tap d/b and keep their hands off, and the d/b's will be jailed until you finish the lows for them to get an uninterruptable ws+4.

There are plenty of other stuff that do damage, and Fc d/f+4 is definitely not one of them. A telegraphic move that gives -19 on block for a launcher that only goes on CH? I'd say that this move should not be used as a damage dealer at all.


For that, I'd say it should go either

- i17 Fc d/f+4 that juggles on normal but w/ > -25 on block,

or

- i17 Fc d/f+4 that gives +5 on hit and +7 w/ opp recover crouching on CH, but w/ -12 on block.



And between the two, I'd still choose later, just because Yoshi needs a low that provides pressure. For low juggles, he's got sword sweep already.
Robo-mitsu
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From: Scotland
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by NoodleHead
it's still not so solid. #s of d/b+3's won't change the fact that the winding time is slow enough to retaliate on reaction. After opponents sees the first two d/b+3's, all they need is tap d/b and keep their hands off, and the d/b's will be jailed until you finish the lows for them to get an uninterruptable ws+4.

There are plenty of other stuff that do damage, and Fc d/f+4 is definitely not one of them. A telegraphic move that gives -19 on block for a launcher that only goes on CH? I'd say that this move should not be used as a damage dealer at all.


For that, I'd say it should go either

- i17 Fc d/f+4 that juggles on normal but w/ > -25 on block,

or

- i17 Fc d/f+4 that gives +5 on hit and +7 w/ opp recover crouching on CH, but w/ -12 on block.



And between the two, I'd still choose later, just because Yoshi needs a low that provides pressure. For low juggles, he's got sword sweep already.


If by winding time, you mean start up, I really have to disagree there. It's pretty fast. Of course reaction times differ, but as lows go it's fast enough to be catch people off guard consistently. Not sure if it's fair to play down d/b 3's by saying they will always be blocked.

As for a speedy low with potential for ch juggles at great range? Yes please! With range like that you have a lot of opportunities to fish for a ch from your opponent and play footsies. There are so many set ups! It's the only means Yoshi has of making them duck. They're not gonna duck to defend a low unblockable now are they? They're gonna hop. And how can you fault d/b 3's for being blockable on reaction and not sword sweep, which requires them to just stand and look at you as he completes a very distinct animation that's slow to come out? It's use is short range wakeup, wall pressure, and anti-turtling, not as a reason to duck from mid range. Not even close to serving as a reason for the enemy to duck. Opponents duck exactly because fc d/f+4 is punishable on block, and because they are scared of walking into a huge ch juggle. Because of this I get ff+4's from crouch on crouching opp's and other mid set ups. If it's not very punishable on block, and there's no damage to fear, you won't get into some ones head with it and make them duck, or keep them at bay either. The potential set ups from the frame advantage on hit pale in comparison to what we'd lose. Even at - 12 on block, that is nowhere near safe enough to just throw out there for frame advantage that he already has. I honestly think losing ch juggle on the fc d/f+4 would ruin Yoshi's low game.
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NoodleHead
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Posts: 17046
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
by winding time I meant the window from the time of impact to yoshi's full recovery. d/b+3's into Fc mixup is way too slow to be effective.

and if you know about the tekken system, a fast, long-range low that gives +5 on hit and -12 on block is a VERY GOOD low. We are not playing theory fight here.

Fc d/f+1 is meant in setups and surprises. If your opponent hops every time you use it, u might wanna think of how to use it correctly. -_- Yoshi's BT d+4 and Fc d/f+4 will make people wanna duck even w/o juggle properties, believe me on that. (or ask Inca about it, lol)
Kazu-Yoshi-girl
a.k.a Tenshimitsu
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2007
From: Poland
PSN: Tenshimitsu
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't need CH juggle from FC,d/f+4. I would love it to just provide advantage on hit and have -12 on block, yes please. A high crushing low with advantage on hit, that's gorgeous.

If I compare FC,d/f+4 to d/b+4 of Lars (is it d/b+4? ), Yoshi's one should be safer. It's more difficult to fish for CH with a slower input anyway. And if we don't want a CH juggle, it should be very safe.

I also think that FC,d/f+3 was removed because of f,f+4. The moves would have exactly same range, such mixup could be quite insane, especially because f,f+4 can be done from FC.

There are many ways to beat low spins:
1. They are really not that fast to start up. They only look so.
2. On block, opponents can not only interrupt the following 4 with WS moves about 13-14 frames in speed (which versus tops means Yoshi being juggled on CH), but if they choose, they can even SIDESTEP the following 4 and have whatever jugglestarter they wish. I repeat, on successfull block (which jails, so SS is pretty easy). That's why on block I usually chose to just end the spins without 4 at the end. On hit, Yoshi is pretty safe, why wouldn't he?
3. The useful sides of low spins:
- they have plenty of range.
- they have some tracking included
- they high-crush consistently
- if blocked at an angle, sometimes opponents can't manage to do the punishment and get hit by the following 4. It's the only little bug in our favour I can recall ^^.
- we can do some mixups versus impatient opponents. They are more psychological mixups than real mixups.

Last edited by Kazu-Yoshi-girl on Jun 2nd, 2010 at 07:23

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Robo-mitsu
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Posts: 280
From: Scotland
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#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazu-Yoshi-girl
I don't need CH juggle from FC,d/f+4. I would love it to just provide advantage on hit and have -12 on block, yes please. A high crushing low with advantage on hit, that's gorgeous.

If I compare FC,d/f+4 to d/b+4 of Lars (is it d/b+4? ), Yoshi's one should be safer. It's more difficult to fish for CH with a slower input anyway. And if we don't want a CH juggle, it should be very safe.

I also think that FC,d/f+3 was removed because of f,f+4. The moves would have exactly same range, such mixup could be quite insane, especially because f,f+4 can be done from FC.

There are many ways to beat low spins:
1. They are really not that fast to start up. They only look so.
2. On block, opponents can not only interrupt the following 4 with WS moves about 13-14 frames in speed (which versus tops means Yoshi being juggled on CH), but if they choose, they can even SIDESTEP the following 4 and have whatever jugglestarter they wish. I repeat, on successfull block (which jails, so SS is pretty easy). That's why on block I usually chose to just end the spins without 4 at the end. On hit, Yoshi is pretty safe, why wouldn't he?
3. The useful sides of low spins:
- they have plenty of range.
- they have some tracking included
- they high-crush consistently
- if blocked at an angle, sometimes opponents can't manage to do the punishment and get hit by the following 4. It's the only little bug in our favour I can recall ^^.
- we can do some mixups versus impatient opponents. They are more psychological mixups than real mixups.


But what about those mix ups for fc d/f+4 I was talking about? They're so much tastier than the pressure you get off regular fc d/f+4's. Viva la fc ff+4! Make those punks duck! Heh heh heh.

As for d/b+3's

1 They only "look" fast? Isn't that the important part?
2 Same here. I never throw out the 4 unless I'm at a wall, which I why I usually refer to just the d/b+3's.
3 Completely agree about "psychological mix ups". That's what I was trying to say when I said "d/b 3's look weak if you look purely at the frames". Thanks for expressing what I couldn't put into words.

As for Noodlehead, I think you missed the point entirely. I'm talking about reasons to make your opponent anxious about ducking for mix up and you bring up sword slash? A move that can't be low blocked is gonna give them reason to duck how? I know how to use d/f 1, it's a good move, but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying...
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Kazu-Yoshi-girl
a.k.a Tenshimitsu
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2007
From: Poland
PSN: Tenshimitsu
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Robo-mitsu, Noodlehead is quite right about low spins and sword sweep in the points that low spins are quite slow and their follow-ups are always burdened with the minus frames on hit, and sword sweep is one of the moves we use in Fc mixups.

But yes, you also have a valid point, that with a proper approach, our opponents don't duck because of sword sweep (but at the same time, Nood didn't said this as well: Noodlehead said that sword Sweep is meant for setups and suprises, and that's very correct). Sword sweep is the reason why they would want a crush or retreat, so you don't have to risk FC,d/f+4, it's enough to duck to make some pressure.

Moreover, FC,d/f+4 is also not a tool to force people to duck because they can see it - unless they are really scared or want some punishment damage: then yes, it can be used in such a way, it can make people duck. But the animation is quite plain and obvious. If people are trained to see Sword Sweep (which can be done), they will see FC,d/f+4 with the same ease.

So, generally many of Yoshi players use FC,d/f+4 mainly as a tool to set up some FC/BT custom strings. The more mess you make in FC:
- e.g. FC,d/f+4, WS+2, BT d+4, FC,d/f+4 WS+2,1~D/F
... the more you confuse your opponent, the more chance you have that in proper time your opponent will eat a suprising sword Sweep.

Also, if your opponents eat f,f+4 from Fc mixups, I think they eat it more on a backdash than a duck.

To answer one more of your questions:

- The fast animation of low spins versus slow execution: well, it depends. If opponent really knows Yoshi, he knows where he can inperrupt what. Opponent knowing Yoshi don't get "mesmerised", so to speak. Psychological setups won't be as effective because he exactly knows how to kill 80% of Yoshi's answers in a given situation, by pure maths and proper positioning.

Like low spins to SS+1. It works quite well, but why? Because people have slow reaction time (to ensure the 4 won't come out) , try to attack with fast moves (which generally are linear) and don't take into account positioning (low spins create some spacing). It's enough to dash in (important - dashing-in re-aligns to opponent) with a fast mid to kill most Yoshi's options after low spins, but people don't know that. Bless them for that

Last edited by Kazu-Yoshi-girl on Jun 2nd, 2010 at 11:02

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Robo-mitsu
Champion
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 280
From: Scotland
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#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kazu-Yoshi-girl
Robo-mitsu, Noodlehead is quite right about low spins and sword sweep in the points that low spins are quite slow and their follow-ups are always burdened with the minus frames on hit, and sword sweep is one of the moves we use in Fc mixups.

But yes, you also have a valid point, that with a proper approach, our opponents don't duck because of sword sweep (but at the same time, Nood didn't said this as well: Noodlehead said that sword Sweep is meant for setups and suprises, and that's very correct). Sword sweep is the reason why they would want a crush or retreat, so you don't have to risk FC,d/f+4, it's enough to duck to make some pressure.

Which is why I don't know why he brought up a move that is used for surprises and wake up set ups as a reason for fc mix ups.

Moreover, FC,d/f+4 is also not a tool to force people to duck because they can see it - unless they are really scared or want some punishment damage: then yes, it can be used in such a way, it can make people duck. But the animation is quite plain and obvious. If people are trained to see Sword Sweep (which can be done), they will see FC,d/f+4 with the same ease.


So, generally many of Yoshi players use FC,d/f+4 mainly as a tool to set up some FC/BT custom strings. The more mess you make in FC:
- e.g. FC,d/f+4, WS+2, BT d+4, FC,d/f+4 WS+2,1~D/F
... the more you confuse your opponent, the more chance you have that in proper time your opponent will eat a suprising sword Sweep.


Also, if your opponents eat f,f+4 from Fc mixups, I think they eat it more on a backdash than a duck.


I know sword sweep is for fc mix ups. I even raised that point myself in defense of manji lows: "you have to mix them up with different numbers of 3's and throw out the occasional 4. I get follow up sword sweeps and ss 1's off of truncated manji lows quite often."

It was Noodlehead who argued against it saying " d/b+3's into Fc mixup is way too slow to be effective." So actually your siding with me against Noodle on this point.

d/f+4 is quite a bit faster than sword sweep in both start up and animation. It's fast enough to catch a lot of stuff at mid range but not really at close range. Even if you catch them with ch once it can really change the shape of a fight in your favour.
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Kazu-Yoshi-girl
a.k.a Tenshimitsu
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2007
From: Poland
PSN: Tenshimitsu
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Anyway, I hope we're not talking here that low spins are bad. Low spins are one of Yoshi's best low moves, quite a good damage for a semi-safe and long-ranged low (d/b+3,3,4), with ability to mess more against impatient opponents.

With Yoshi, all things can be beaten with ease, but here comes the player's brain in action. Even if opponent knows all such anti-Yoshi-strats, Yoshi player with a good amount of creativity will mess in the game despite any common sense. And that's what I love about this character.

But let's get back to the wishlist, folks!
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