Hit Confirmable Moves

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noodalls
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
This has been touched on in a few different threads, but probably deserves its own thread for discussion.

Firstly, some people post to ask what it means when someone says a move is hit confirmable. The rough definition would be that you watch the previous hit to make sure it connects, and then input the subsequent hit.

Then, the question of which moves are hit confirmable and which are not begins. Some initial thoughts

The Ideal Hitconfirmable move
- Obvious hit animation.
- Large time between the first hit connecting and the second hit needing to be input
* This is a double edged sword however, as it does give your opponent more time to react as well
- First hit doesn't need to be fast, the above point seems more important.
- Second hit does not become blockable if it is delayed too long
- First (and second) hit isn't terrible on block.
- Not too long a delay between first and second hit so that if first hit is blocked they can either punish you if you stop or interrupt you if you continue.

Lets look at some examples.

[Most of this data has been obtained visually. It is not possible (or maybe just easy) to work out when a move becomes blockable with this method. The PStick allows for this, but I don't have one anymore.]


DJ 112
First hit is i10. Input for third hit is up to F37.

Kaz 112
First hit is i10. Input for third hit is up to F37.

Hei 112
First hit i10. Input for third hit up to F37. Blockable if delayed for too long (third input F31-37)*.

Kaz b+1,2
i12. Input up to F26, but blockable for inputs on F23-26.

Paul b+1,2
i12. Input up to F26. Blockable, but don't know when.

Hei df+1
i13. Input up to F31. Blockable for inputs F23-31.

Eddy b+3
i13. Input up to F26. Blockable on CH for inputs on F24-26.

Julia uf+4
i15. Input window for 2nd hit up to F22.




* Thanks to DaeDraug.

Last edited by noodalls on Mar 6th, 2010 at 04:17

noodalls
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
So, what is the limit of hit confirmability? This is difficult to answer.

Something like Shining fists is hitconfirmable, and the numbers would tend to support this, as there is a lot of time between the first hit connecting and the input being required.

There are other factors beyond just the inputs which are worthy of mention.

Firstly, there are the physiological factors. To react to something, light has to go to the retina, be carried by the optic nerve to the brain (occipital lobe), become integrated and then travel down a efferent motor nerve fibre to the forearm/hand where it has its causes a muscle (FDP?) to perform an action.

By my reading, motor impulses are carried on A fibres, going at about 15-30m/sec. If the human arm is about 60cm long, the motor impulse alone is going to take at least .02 of a second (1F is .016). It's difficult to establish how long it take for the processing of the information,

sources such as this suggest that it takes about 200msec to respond to something on screen. Whether responding to an isolated visual prompt is the same as hitconfirming is debatable.

One other factor is that consoles induce lag, separate from whatever additional lag LCDs or wireless controllers provide. Digital Foundry has looked at this situation, and found that at best, the console will respond within 3-4F of an input. My brief investigation tends to find a similar result.

Also worth mentioning is that when you input a command, the game doesn't respond until the next frame.

Last edited by noodalls on Feb 28th, 2010 at 09:34

noodalls
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
So if we look at Julia's uf+4, would we expect it to be hitconfirmable? As I see it, it goes like this.



uf+4 input on F1, hitspark on F16. Add 4F on to that for how far behind the visual output is compared to the PS3. Add at least 1F for your reaction time, and we're up to F21 already. 2F window to input the move (not to mention we don't know where in a frame the game polls the input, or for how long in the frame the game is open to inputs.)



Probably what's going on is that a lot of hit confirming isn't exactly confirming the hit, rather it's expecting it. 15F is a reasonably long time leading up to the hit, and good players can probably have a fairly good idea of whether it will hit or not. It's not strictly speaking "hit confirming" but its probably what most people are doing when they think they are hitconfirming.

It's like saying that throws have a 15F window for breaks. You're not responding within that 15F window, you're responding to something that you saw earlier, before the throw connected.

I welcome discussion of all these points in this thread.

If anyone wants to do some testing for delayability for themselves, read the visual frame data thread. I'm sure you can do it for yourselves (I'm not going to test every delayable move for everyone.)

I believe that there are also macro programs for the PSP that would allow this to be tested to the nth degree. People would need to source these for themselves, as I don't own a modded PSP and don't know where to find such software.

Finally, if someone smart could make a hitconfirm flash or PSP application, similar to Rip's throw break trainer, I think we would be all very thankful. If you want to use my 60fps images for it, I would happily provide them.
noodalls
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ChrisCP
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks as always for your time and effort.
Signature Better lucky than good.

Originally posted by Shinjin
"my tekken is all about tech catches and setups, this new tekken is about poking and being gay with the wall ?_?."
MCP
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Can I trouble you for one or two Hit Confirm tests?

Bruce d/f+1<1 feels tough, but no one talks about it. Second hit comes out and blocked/ducked if done too late.
Miguel f+4<2 generally accepted as 'hard'. But at least the second hit won't come out if done too late.

Then an aside, no need to test, Miguel f,f+2<1 feels relatively easy to those two.
noodalls
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Miguel f+4
Input on F1, hits F19, input window closes after F26.

Without a PStick it's going to be very hard to test something that requires working out timing on the second hit. I'm going to pass on those, perhaps DaeDraug can do them.
|Galen|
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't exactly know the frame data for it BUT

Nina:
d/f+3>2
d/f+3>4
u/f+2>1
mach one
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
isn't Kaz b+1,2 i11? this move is absolutely hit confirmable

paul's b+1,2 is blockable even delayed only slightly

Last edited by mach one on Mar 7th, 2010 at 19:25

mach one
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
judging by experience, i personally believe these moves to be hit confirmable (the confirmable point is indicated by either a "=" for normal input, or a "<" for delayable input)


Ak
1+2<2_4
CH b21=2

Asuka
3<1
b3<2_4
CH f1<4 (sparks= last hit blockable)
b2,1+2=4 (3rd hit confirmable, no special CH animation but 1st hit sparks on rage)

Bryan
f214
DF11112 (confirmable after 3rd hit?)
b1~21212121214 (confirmable after 3rd hit?)
CH 12=1_4
CH 32=1 (sparks on rage)
CH 43=4*_f4
CH d2<3 (sparks on rage)
CH d3+4,2=DB (enough time to cancel after you confirm it's NH, special CH animation)
CH b2<1
CH b3<21_4_1+2 (sparks on rage)

DJ
11<2
(1)1<2
12=2_4
f2<4
df4<4
b12=B (confirm otherwise to cancel)
(b24)2<1
bf2<1 (ironically not confirmable on CH)
ws1<2
CH df1<2
CH (b242)1<2
CH (bf2)1<2_d2 (sparks on rage)

Drag
(13)12=1
db2<1
ss2<3
CH 12=1
CH (1)3=121 (special CH animation)
CH (1)32=B (confirm otherwise to cancel, special CH animation)
CH f2<4 (special CH animation)
CH df1<4 (sparks on rage)
CH d41=3 (special CH animation)
CH (db2)1<2 (special CH animation, extremely hard but godly if mastered)
CH b42=1
CH (ss2)(1)+2<4 (sparks on rage)

Hei
11=2
12=2
df1<2
b1<2
CH 11<2

Kaz
11<2
(1)1<2
12=2_4
f1+2<2
df3<2
df4<4
b1<2
b2<4
(uf4)44=4
CH (3)1<4
CH (df3)2<1
CH (b3)14=1_3
CH uf44=44

King
CH (f2)22=B (confirm otherwise to cancel, sparks on rage)
CH df2<1 (sparks on rage)
CH b1<4
CH ff2<1 (sparks)

Kuma
1+2,1+2=1+2
uf34=1+2
FC,df12=1
CH f11=1
CH df12=12
CH FC,f12=f1_df1_d1
CH FC,df21=2

Law
11=2
2f2=2
f2f2=2
df12=2
df13=2
b1<2
ff2<1_3
qcf12<1
ws1<2 (hard)
DSS1<f1_4
BT2<2
CH 11=11,1_2
CH 12=2_3
CH 12=f22
CH (1)2f2=2
CH (12)f2<2_1+2
CH 22=1
CH (2)f2<2
CH 43=4
CH (f2)2<1
CH (f2)f2<2_1+2
CH df33=3_4 (sparks)
CH b1~2<2 (sparks on rage)
CH (b1)2<2
CH b2<2 (sparks on rage)
CH qcf12<12 (special CH animation)
CH (qcf12)1<2 (special CH animation)
CH ws1<2 (easy)
CH ss21=21
CH DSS(f2)2<1
CH DSS(f2)f2<2_1+2

Leo
f2<2
db1+2<1
b2<1
(f4_b3+4_etc)1<2
CH (1)21=1_4
CH (3)2<3
CH db2<2 (special CH animation)
CH ws1<4 (sparks on rage)
CH (ws1)4<1 (sparks on rage)
CH (charge)b31=2
CH (charge)db41=2

Lili
f3+4~3<4
(f3+4)~3<4
d2<2
b2<1
u3+4,3=3+4
uf4<3
uf3+4<3
qcf1<2
CH (3)2<3 (sparks on rage)
CH df4<4 (special CH animation)
CH BT4=3+4

Miguel
f3<4
f4<2 (extremely hard but godly if mastered)
CH b2<2
CH ff2<1
CH (SAV1)2<1

Paul
d4:2=1+2 (clean)
(qcb3)2<1_3
CH d4:2=1+2 (any range)
CH ff21=B (confirm otherwise to cancel, sparks on rage)
CH qcb32<1_3

Roger
f1+2=2
d1+2=1+2
ws3=3* (confirm to release)
b1+2,1+2=3+4
CH 12=1_2_3
CH (db4)34=3
CH (ub3)34=3
CH ws33=* (confirm to keep holding, sparks on rage)
b1+2,(1+2,3+4)34=3

Wang
ws2<2
CH 11=2
CH 4(4)=4_d4
CH (f4)1+2<2
CH df1<1 (sparks on rage)
CH d2<1+2 (sparks)
CH (ws2)2<2


this list is incomplete for i'm still learning other characters

Last edited by mach one on Mar 7th, 2010 at 19:38

noodalls
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by mach one
isn't Kaz b+1,2 i11? this move is absolutely hit confirmable


inatekken appears to agree with you.

Visually it looks like i12.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6LC3LC4M

Good post by the way, would love to be able to go through it all.

Last edited by noodalls on Mar 8th, 2010 at 10:48

St. George
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by MCP
Can I trouble you for one or two Hit Confirm tests?

Bruce d/f+1<1 feels tough, but no one talks about it. Second hit comes out and blocked/ducked if done too late.
Miguel f+4<2 generally accepted as 'hard'. But at least the second hit won't come out if done too late.

Then an aside, no need to test, Miguel f,f+2<1 feels relatively easy to those two.



ff+2,1 is impossible to hit confirm on normal hit, as any delay makes it block/duckable. On CH it becomes extremely easy to hit confirm, you have all day
Signature Flushking.
DaeDraug
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From: Poland
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
inatekken appears to agree with you.

Visually it looks like i12.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6LC3LC4M

Good post by the way, would love to be able to go through it all.



b+1 has two active frames F11 and F12

It will hit in F11 when done from close distance, and in F12 from far.

Here is my visual data for b+1 in both cases:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/da0jz7


I can help testing HConfirm moves, list posted by mach one is very usefull.

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