Russia VS ________ Anti Character Strats

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aris
The Beard Signal
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 864
From: USA California
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
I hate to make a thread that has no content but its by 'sayco's request, If you have any anti character strats or questions this is the place to post them. Ill eventually have some content for this thread but without a record function it will take some time.
sandilord
Destructive Impulse
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2093
From: Netherlands
PSN: Sandilord
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
What you could do is close this thread (that way you'd be able to still work in it right?) and reopen the closed thread. That way we can use that thread to drop our stuff and this thread can be used to compile it per character in a nice clean way.
Just a suggestion.
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aris
The Beard Signal
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 864
From: USA California
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
I dont think theres a need for two threads on the same topic. Ill eventually edit the first post with a bullet note style setup for anti character stuff. In the mean time if anyone is having trouble or wants to talk about certain match ups. This is as good a place as any.
TekkenFrog
3rd Dan
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
From: France
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
I have 2 match-up problems online :

ASUKA
KAZUYA

It seems i can't beat those players whatever their level is.

I am not a great player (42% ) so i need some basic strat , nothing too much complicated .
BlackPriest
Expulsion of Fury
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Paris ne s'est pas fait en un jour?

Which moves give you problems? Are you fighting a reverse happy Asuka or are ewgf spamming Kaz? I?ve played a good amount of Kaz in T5 and I may be able to give you some advises, but in order to reply with anything else than ?learn their movelist and learn which moves you can punish with what? I need more info on the moves you are having problems with?
TekkenFrog
3rd Dan
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
From: France
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
I have tried to identify some of the problematic moves in the training mode.


KAZUYA :

- Most of his move ( 1,1,2 for exemple) have knock down properties. So i spend the whole match grounded.

- u/f 3,3,3,3 that i never manage to block. Sometimes i use QCF3 when i see it coming (rarely).

- f,N,d/f+4,3 and f,N,d/f+4,1

ASUKA :

- All the mix-up combo based upon d/b 4. I trie to block low but then they hit high or they follow with crouch 3+4.

- Her reversal is problematic. Eventhough Drag has a lot of tools (ex QCF1+2) it slows my game (i am better "pitbulling" with sergei)

- b3,2 i often get launched (but now that i saw how it works in the training mode i'll may get around it)


Those are my main concern i think. But it's hard to know at my level of play
BlackPriest
Expulsion of Fury
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
I see.

As for Kazuya, try to play a little more defensively. Kazuyas nasty moves are mostly faster than Dragunovs, and on even frames he'll most likely outspeed your moves often (Kazuya knocks and wall splats at 10 frames with 1,1,2, launches from standing with ewgf at 13 frames and from WS with twin pistons at 13 frames (not sure on the exact frames of this last one but it's damn fast)). Provided these things and the fact that he has a ton of punishable moves, try to be more careful with attacking and turtle more. The good news is that the moves you mentioned are all badly punishable:
- 1,1,2 is launch punishable: should they finish 1,1,2 and you block it, be sure to launch the opponent with d/f+2
- u/f+4,4,4,4 can easily be lowparried: get used to see this animation and press d/f the exact same time the second 4 (the low kick) would hit you. You'll notice the lowparry animation and get a free juggle
- d,N,d/f+4,4 and d,N,d/f+4,1: the hellsweeps are hard to see, but should you ever block one of these low kicks, be sure to punish with u/f,N+4 for huge damage or WS+2
Refer to the juggle thread if you want to learn what you can do after you launch with d/f+2, lowparry, u/f,N+4 or WS+2

As for Asuka, I don't know her well enough to help you much. But if she's reversal happy try to base your offense more on the moves below (stolen from tyler's 'Sergei Manifesto'; credits for this!):
qcf+2 ? Standing launcher, extremely strong against reversals, though not safe on block
qcf+1+2 ? Usually safe due to push back, but will KND giving running options post hit
iWR 2 ? Parryable, but not reversable, this will usually stop opponents from reversing
qcf+4 ? Knee system attack throw, not the best option but fairly strong
iWR 4 ? Similar to iWR 2, Dragunov will knee AT the opponent. Tons of damage and oki.
3+4 ? Launch on normal hit, safe on block, and tech frame for additional options
f+1+2 ? Straight forward standing launch with tremendous carry, a strong option
Any low, preferably d/b+3 ? They're reversing mids & highs, not lows, so might as well launch

Last edited by BlackPriest on Nov 26th, 2009 at 16:49

Darkfrog
Kyu
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3
From: Norway
PSN: Darkfrog-
XBL: darkfr0g
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
I played some Asuka back in T5. I find that Asuka's game is very much evolved around the low spin kicks. A tool i always get the Asuka players with is the low reversal (d/f 2,4 if i remeber correctly.) It make take a bit of training too use it, but once you get it down, you can easily knock her off her feet when she tries to go for those low kicks. After she eats a few of those low reversals, she will most likely stop doing the low kicks so much.
What is also worth noting is the fact that she can only do 3 of those low spin kicks in a row. After the kicks she can either go for the heroin dance or the high kick, bot of which you will block if you just keep staying low.

I find that patience is key to victory with Asuka. Just keep blocking those pesty strings until you get the opening for d/f 2.
Last thing: Are you using u/f 3 much? It comes out fast, is safe on block and jumps over low attacks. It can catch Asuka by surprise and force her in a ukemi situasjon, and Dragunov is a master at okizeme!

Hope this helps! Please let us know how your progress goes.
BenRa
3rd Dan
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 33
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Got some upcoming matches (local ranking fights) against a Julia who I don't have any experience against, and also a couple of Lilis who I do have a lot of experience against (if I can block d/b+4 I'm fine there). Any advice? I've seen some Julia where they get what looks like a 50/50 mixup after spin, other than that I don't know much.
hanma
7th Dan
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 90
From: USA Missouri
PSN: Hanma00
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
One little piece of advise i can give is to sidestep and walk her. She is very linear. When they whiff punish accordingly. I punish whiffs with b4,3. If they whiff twice thats half of their life bar.
Signature Poke masta flex
Shadow Glare
1st Dan
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9
From: USA Michigan
XBL: Shadow Glare
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
hhheyyyy..

been awhile since ive posted here.

anyways..ive been maining dragunov lately and i have alot of trouble against my friends lars (everyone else i take down)

but lars...everything lars does seems to counter everything i do..any tips on him?
Signature hmm..cant think of a sig as of right now.
sandilord
Destructive Impulse
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2093
From: Netherlands
PSN: Sandilord
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Shadow Glare
hhheyyyy..

been awhile since ive posted here.

anyways..ive been maining dragunov lately and i have alot of trouble against my friends lars (everyone else i take down)

but lars...everything lars does seems to counter everything i do..any tips on him?
It seems to me you're trying to rush him. If you play by frames...don't trust on + frames anymore. uf3 crushes EVERYTHING. Don't pitbull, poke and wait for a launch opportunity.
If you block uf3, punish with b43 (that's right, no launch).
Don't try to ss too much, Lars tracks like crazy.
uf4 is safe (I think it's -9 but I might be wrong here) but throw, low stuff will probably work.
If he's rushing you, try things like 12 (ch confirm) and ub_u_uf3.
Most important of all: be patient.
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Shadow Glare
1st Dan
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 9
From: USA Michigan
XBL: Shadow Glare
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by sandilord
It seems to me you're trying to rush him. If you play by frames...don't trust on + frames anymore. uf3 crushes EVERYTHING. Don't pitbull, poke and wait for a launch opportunity.
If you block uf3, punish with b43 (that's right, no launch).
Don't try to ss too much, Lars tracks like crazy.
uf4 is safe (I think it's -9 but I might be wrong here) but throw, low stuff will probably work.
If he's rushing you, try things like 12 (ch confirm) and ub_u_uf3.
Most important of all: be patient.


yea my playstyle for dragunov is more rushdown then defensive.

but yea that jumping kick screws up alot and i didnt know what to punish what with

thanks for the info
Signature hmm..cant think of a sig as of right now.
Moosetaine
meh
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2069
From: Philippines
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
how do i fight a hwoarang that is good at doing strings?
I do d2 and db1 to crush his highs and try to produce space but when he gets near me Im in big trouble. any tips?
tyler2k
____________________
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2794
From: USA California
PSN: tyler2k1
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
If you're not sure when to try low parrying/ss'ing, then you can try using reversals and qcb+2. While qcb+2 is stronger against Baek than Hwo, it still can work with success if timed properly.
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m2dave
Dragon Lord
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 888
From: USA Ohio
PSN: m2dave
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
If you block Lars' u/f+3 and follow up with jabs immediately, the jabs will float Lars. This works at any given distance. Hence, something like this is possible:

2,1, 1, 1,3,2 B! dash 3,1,2. 47 pts. of damage + solid wall carry.

You can also go for some okizeme of course, which I actually recommend doing, especially in infinite stages.

2,1, 1, 1,3,2 B! dash d/f+3 and then d+3+4 (which hits grounded and side rolling opponents) or 3,1 (which picks up quick standing and back-rolling opponents).

d+3+4 is -12 on block, so that only results in a free WS+4 for Lars and many other characters. If you whiff 3,1, expect to eat a mere non-counter hitting wake up attack. The risk versus reward ratio is definitely in Dragunov's favor.

Replace d/f+1 and b+2 with d/b+2 as your primary mid poke. Lars' u/f+3 (and other moves that share these simultaneous high and low crush properties) can sometimes crush d/f+1 and b+2. You do not want to lose 60 pts. + of damage for attempting otherwise safe mid pokes. d/b+2 takes care of that. d/b+2 is safe on block, 14 frames fast, +3 on hit, hit-confirmable (via d/b+2,1), and it tracks to perfectly to the left side. The second hit tracks to the right side but is -10 on block. d/b+2 is perhaps Dragunov's most underrated move. Rain was continuously spamming it, especially at the end of rounds.
tyler2k
____________________
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Posts: 2794
From: USA California
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#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by m2dave
Replace d/f+1 and b+2 with d/b+2 as your primary mid poke. Lars' u/f+3 (and other moves that share these simultaneous high and low crush properties) can sometimes crush d/f+1 and b+2. You do not want to lose 60 pts. + of damage for attempting otherwise safe mid pokes. d/b+2 takes care of that. d/b+2 is safe on block, 14 frames fast, +3 on hit, hit-confirmable (via d/b+2,1), and it tracks to perfectly to the left side. The second hit tracks to the right side but is -10 on block. d/b+2 is perhaps Dragunov's most underrated move. Rain was continuously spamming it, especially at the end of rounds.

As much as I use b+2, the move is complete trash. I really need to stop using it except during oki situations. b+2 seems to hit very low for a mid and I can't tell you the amount of times that Lars/Bryan has u/f+4'd right over it. Do I interrupt them mid-air for small combo? No, completely crushed. The other (inexplicable) part of b+2 is that it does not high crush, which it really should, but you are left recovering WS at the end of the animation, granted you can stay FC, but the recovering WS is what makes this move so horrendous on whiff. I can't tell you how many times I know I'm in FC post b+2, whiffs, start to recover WS to block mids, and then get launched.

It's a love/hate relationship with this move, I swear.

The entire string for d/b+2,1,2 is delayable, but I wasn't aware that d/b+2,1 is hit confirmable. Is it possible that it's only hit confirm on CH? Because the T6 system has been changed (across the board) such that delayable NC/NCc strings are not NC/NCc when delayed.

Let me give you a couple examples, Mishima 1,1,2 is NC - 1,1,<2 is no longer NC, Bruce CH b+1,2,1 is NCc, but CH b+1,2,<1 is not. My mentality is that d/b+2,1 is NC, but d/b+2,<1 is not, possibly NCc at best. Of course I may be wrong, but this is interesting if it's correct.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not doubting that d/b+2,1 may be hit confirmable, I'm saying that taking a frame or two, too long therefore becoming d/b+2,<1, might make it not NC though CH d/b+2,<1 might be. I'm at school so I won't be able to test until later.
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m2dave
Dragon Lord
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 888
From: USA Ohio
PSN: m2dave
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by tyler2k
As much as I use b+2, the move is complete trash. I really need to stop using it except during oki situations. b+2 seems to hit very low for a mid and I can't tell you the amount of times that Lars/Bryan has u/f+4'd right over it. Do I interrupt them mid-air for small combo? No, completely crushed. The other (inexplicable) part of b+2 is that it does not high crush, which it really should, but you are left recovering WS at the end of the animation, granted you can stay FC, but the recovering WS is what makes this move so horrendous on whiff. I can't tell you how many times I know I'm in FC post b+2, whiffs, start to recover WS to block mids, and then get launched.

It's a love/hate relationship with this move, I swear.

The entire string for d/b+2,1,2 is delayable, but I wasn't aware that d/b+2,1 is hit confirmable. Is it possible that it's only hit confirm on CH? Because the T6 system has been changed (across the board) such that delayable NC/NCc strings are not NC/NCc when delayed.

Let me give you a couple examples, Mishima 1,1,2 is NC - 1,1,<2 is no longer NC, Bruce CH b+1,2,1 is NCc, but CH b+1,2,<1 is not. My mentality is that d/b+2,1 is NC, but d/b+2,<1 is not, possibly NCc at best. Of course I may be wrong, but this is interesting if it's correct.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not doubting that d/b+2,1 may be hit confirmable, I'm saying that taking a frame or two, too long therefore becoming d/b+2,<1, might make it not NC though CH d/b+2,<1 might be. I'm at school so I won't be able to test until later.


No, and I will be honest. The hit-confirm window is very strict and it cannot be done on reaction, counter hit or otherwise, unless you are REALLY looking out for it. Trust me, though. d/b+2 is still very good.

Forget about Lars' u/f+3 and u/f+4 or Bryan's u/f+4. Lili's d+3+4 and d/b+4, granted that these two moves are extremely unsafe on block, can crush Dragunov's d/f+1, d/f+2, d/f+4, b+2, b+4, u/f+4, and WR+2, and maybe a few more. Even if you were to do one of these mid attacks after a blocked WR+2, you would still get crushed, or, even worse, imagine running up and doing d/f+1 at the end of a round only to get launched by a class 1 launcher. d/b+2 must be used instead. It is one of Dragunov's few mid attacks that does not suffer from mediocre hitbox properties. u/f+3 is the other mid attack, but it is slow and has no tracking whatsoever. Again, d/b+2 is only one frame slower than d/f+1 and it has better tracking. It has extensions, too. Just know which characters have strong 10 frame and 14 frame punishing moves since the second hit is -10 on block while the last one is -14 on block. For example, doing the last hit of d/b+2,1,2 against Lars would be a bad call.

The last time Rain used Dragunov, which was a few months ago footage wise at least, he spammed a lot of d/b+2s, especially at the end of rounds.
Cloudie
1st Dan
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 18
From: United States
PSN: Fleakitten
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
Any tips on Dragunov vs Bob and Zafina? Those are the only 2 of the new characters that give me problems.
tyler2k
____________________
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2794
From: USA California
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#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by m2dave
No, and I will be honest. The hit-confirm window is very strict and it cannot be done on reaction, counter hit or otherwise, unless you are REALLY looking out for it. Trust me, though. d/b+2 is still very good.

I too did some testing last night, it is possible to hit confirm but like I was talking about and you confirmed, it's a very strict window. It seems that delaying the 2 input by about 1-2 frames is all it takes for it to be non-NC and be punishable.

I agree though, d/b+2 deserves more recognition for being one of Dragunov's stronger poking mids.
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