King's Nerf's in TT2

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thetigersbutt
Shihan
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 102
From: Singapore
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't know about you but king has been nerf Considerably in TT2

here is a list of some of the nerf

Irish whip (b+1+2), is now late throw breakable in br you had only a millisecond to break the initial irish whip animation

irish whip to ground throw( 2+4) no longer guarantees ground throw ,in br it was a guarantee .(of course the opponent can break it)
opponents can now quick roll after the 2+4
(kings ground game seems all lost now , with the exception of irish whip to 3+4 , you still get a free ground throw after this)

throws in general also seem easier to break now ( this maybe applicable to all the characters also i dont know)

TT2 has taken out the wrestler out of king .....i think
anyone else anything to add ?
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DEATH&#63722;
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Joined: Mar 2009
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
^
^
^
You're thinking too negative...

b1, 2 have less frame advantage but take 41 damage. That's too good for 12f punish.
WS 2, 2 for 41+ damage for only -12. Too good for a WS punisher/poke
Because of lower healthbars for two lifebars, throws are stronger than ever.
TS is now the strongest throw in the game for 58 damage.
King has the backward JGS to punish tag crashes.
Multithrows are too good that it prevents people from tagging out. Not to mention the damage potential.

With all these old and new toys should suffice for the Irish whip nerf. You should love u+1+2 too. BTW b+1+2, 2+4, dash GT is still guarranteed. The animation is just different now that they look rolling. Anyway, Irish whip is more used as a tag throw right now anyways...

Normally I'll recommend you to post on the discussion thread but I'll let this pass... This place is so dead...
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thetigersbutt
Shihan
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 102
From: Singapore
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
^
^
^
You're thinking too negative...

b1, 2 have less frame advantage but take 41 damage. That's too good for 12f punish.
- i admit b1,2 is a good punisher however ,the 2 is ductable and punishable with a hop kick so i wont really sing it praises so readily

WS 2, 2 for 41+ damage for only -12. Too good for a WS punisher/poke
- i agree this is one of his greatest additions to his arsenal however the second 2 is punishable on block only if you stop at the first 2 is it safe . so its not really a move you can spam

Because of lower healthbars for two lifebars, throws are stronger than ever.
-dont agree , there is life recovery now , technically lifebars have actually increase , it now favors characters with good wall carry and tag combo damage etc

TS is now the strongest throw in the game for 58 damage.

- king has many other more damaing throws i.e Giantswing to wall , his back throw f,b1+2 etc
but having a damaging throw doesnt mean nothing if its easily breakable

King has the backward JGS to punish tag crashes.
- agree period

Multithrows are too good that it prevents people from tagging out. Not to mention the damage potential.
- kings multi throws are easily breakable , just mash 1 , if you dont get out of the first animation you will the next few .

With all these old and new toys should suffice for the Irish whip nerf. You should love u+1+2 too. BTW b+1+2, 2+4, dash GT is still guarranteed. The animation is just different now that they look rolling. Anyway, Irish whip is more used as a tag throw right now anyways...

-really believe me its no longer guaranteed , go try it out after the 2+4 by the time king runs to the opponant he can roll away .
u+1+2 is good when you are near walls
irish throw into tag throw less likely now with a late throw break

Normally I'll recommend you to post on the discussion thread but I'll let this pass... This place is so dead...
-thanks
Signature Beat me, hate me... You can never break me
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DEATH&#63722;
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by thetigersbutt
- i admit b1,2 is a good punisher however ,the 2 is ductable and punishable with a hop kick so i wont really sing it praises so readily


1. b1, 2 IS A NATURAL COMBO. That means if b1 hits, the 2 is guaranteed. So the whole string not jailing isn't an issue. Actually, if you want to use b+1 as a poke, don't use the follow-ups, as b+1 alone is a good and safe CH launcher. If they duck the b+1, learn how to delay strings, especially b+1, 4 (that's what b+1, 4 is for, for duckers).

Don't forget though to SS-cancel when you get the CH b+1.


- i agree this is one of his greatest additions to his arsenal however the second 2 is punishable on block only if you stop at the first 2 is it safe . so its not really a move you can spam


WS 2, 2 again IS NC. As a crouching punisher, it's too good. Even as a poke, with just -12, I could spam it, especially with the reward. Don't forget FC df+2 too. Even without mixups, people don't want King crouching.


-dont agree , there is life recovery now , technically lifebars have actually increase , it now favors characters with good wall carry and tag combo damage etc


So? If they easily break your throws, it's kind of your fault. You're not mixing your throws enough and your setups probably are too predictable.

- king has many other more damaing throws i.e Giantswing to wall , his back throw f,b1+2 etc
but having a damaging throw doesnt mean nothing if its easily breakable



Red health means nothing. King's damage output is too good anyway, not only in throws. And usually, if you juggle someone and use iSW ender, they either need to tag crash (bye red health, also punishable by bJGS) or risk getting refloated (df+4, 3 can refloat for a juggle against many things.).


- kings multi throws are easily breakable , just mash 1 , if you dont get out of the first animation you will the next few .


Bro, about multithrows, you gotta do your homework and learn the chains. If they are spamming 1's, = do two breaks. Again, you're being too predictable. You can do the whole JGS multi with all two breaks if that's your problem.


-really believe me its no longer guaranteed , go try it out after the 2+4 by the time king runs to the opponant he can roll away .
u+1+2 is good when you are near walls
irish throw into tag throw less likely now with a late throw break


Again, even with irish whip being easily breakable, even the high level players don't always break them. And even if irish whip is severely weakened, you still have other stuff.

I think your problem is you're trying to be too offensive oriented with king. King's strong points are block punishing, CH-hunting, mids, tracking, damaging pokes and throws. All of them shouts "turtling" and setups. If you find yourself being punished, you're probably doing it wrong. You're the one who's supposed to punish and control the match.

------------

EDIT: this is MMT, former mod here and a king player.

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thetigersbutt
Shihan
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Singapore
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
you are right MMT's good but i play a more offensive style of king , and thats where the irish whip comes in handy when opponents block a lot , you irish whip them into a ground throw , it really is effective in BR.
and because irish whip (initial animation)was nearly unbreakable in br the opponents are left guessing what to do next i.e 2+4, 1+3 , 3+4 break etc

but i admit the block wait and punish is pretty much the de facto play style in many high level matches
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TheDinosaur
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
king is still about the same as he's been in DR imo. only time he took a dip in decent-ness was 6.0.

br irish whip stuff was option selectable (11~2222~3+4,3+4,3+4) anyway. the two which led to ground throws, anyway, and breaking the 3+4 followup gave the other person free combos in your back.

the most significant nerf king has had which not many talk about is how df+1>2 has a much smaller delay window to make it safe, and the second hit whiffs a lot more.

he still remains a decent, fairly difficult mid tier character
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DEATH&#63722;
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by thetigersbutt
you are right MMT's good but i play a more offensive style of king , and thats where the irish whip comes in handy when opponents block a lot , you irish whip them into a ground throw , it really is effective in BR.
and because irish whip (initial animation)was nearly unbreakable in br the opponents are left guessing what to do next i.e 2+4, 1+3 , 3+4 break etc

but i admit the block wait and punish is pretty much the de facto play style in many high level matches


Umm... first of all, if you think Irish Whip really hurts your game, you're having the wrong go-to throw. You should use GS, a bufferable, damaging 10f throw with a pretty short break window. That will make you forget about Irish Whip.

BTW There's nothing wrong playing King offensively, as long as you're having a plan/setup in mind. If you want to be always close in your opponent' that's actually good. Use his pokes like jabs, crouch jab, df+1 2, df+2, b+1 and b+2 strings, they are pretty safe and fast enough, not to mention damaging and have some funky properties. You should love b+1 for CH launch and learning to delay strings like df+2 1 and b+2 4 will net you great damage d+1 and a occasional db+3 is something I'll recommend using too, letting you go for a FC df+1_df+2, rock bottom, or a GS. But when you are poking, you should always have in mind to lead them to your buffered throws or mids. Damaging, delayable pokes is not scary enough, Buffered GS, GS2 and rock bottom and iSW should make them pretty problematic. Hopknee is something you could always do when up close.

King is not a typical pressure character, if you actually want to pressure opponents, you gotta think ahead and have some setups in mind, whether it's a throw or a launcher. That's what I love about this character, loved him more than steve...

EDIT

@dinosaur yeah, df+1, 2 range nerf is something people should get used too. But we can deal with it...
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thetigersbutt
Shihan
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 102
From: Singapore
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheDinosaur
king is still about the same as he's been in DR imo. only time he took a dip in decent-ness was 6.0.

br irish whip stuff was option selectable (11~2222~3+4,3+4,3+4) anyway. the two which led to ground throws, anyway, and breaking the 3+4 followup gave the other person free combos in your back.


- are you sure this is option selectable ?
you mean to say meshing 11,22 ,3+4,3+4 can break whatever irish followups executed ?
i thought this no longer possible since t6 no longer can you break a 2, or a 1 or a 1+2 break by meshing 1,2 etc

Last edited by thetigersbutt on Aug 27th, 2012 at 04:39

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Razugi4ever
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by DEATH
EDIT: this is MMT, former mod here and a king player.


Nice play by MMT...
I saw his attempt @ 7:00 from CH db+3 into WS 4, 1, then b+2, 1+2 which didn't connect in this video...

However, could this juggle connect to B! ??
I tried it, but couldn't connect with 1 after WS 4...

Thx
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ShadowKing!256
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
The only nerf i could think of was the near "useless" launcher king got in d+1+2. launch punishable, short range and too slow to set up. I think moving the people's elbow to d+2+3 was such a waste, and a throw launcher (like marduk, bob and law) would've been a better option.

every other nerf else only forces king to use his decent CD~WS game more.
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
d+1+2 is good. It high crushes all the way.
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Star Saber
d+1+2 is good. It high crushes all the way.


I'd say it's not bad. It will kill you just as much as save you.
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
I think it's more like it kills them far more often than it kills you. It even has pushback so on block you're safe from most launchers. Most.

I'd expect a nerf on this move by the next Tekken, that's how good it is.
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Howling
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Interesting. I disagree, I think you have time to dash and launch with pretty much everyone.

I'll hold you up to that for next tekken
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
well, yes I think you have time to dash up and hopkick or something. But, doing that in a tight match, with an inbuilt lag, and I'm not even talking about online matches, it's kind of tight. It's difficult man. d+1+2 is -18 on block, hopkicks are 15f, you have a 3 frame window to make your dash. Wanna test your luck, be my guest.
Signature "In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"
Random noob comment upon watching my King in a TR session: "How crazy is that tiger. Someone take him to the zoo."
#BUFFANGEL #BUFFWTF
Originally posted by noodalls
Didn't think I'd ever say it, but you guys need to try to be more like Star Saber when you post.
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Star Saber
well, yes I think you have time to dash up and hopkick or something. But, doing that in a tight match, with an inbuilt lag, and I'm not even talking about online matches, it's kind of tight. It's difficult man. d+1+2 is -18 on block, hopkicks are 15f, you have a 3 frame window to make your dash. Wanna test your luck, be my guest.


A DEWGF might work...

Anyway, t more I use FC df+1 (cd+1), the more I use d+1+2 less. It has excellent range thats perfect for catching raw tags. My main problem with d+1+2 I its range is too short to be used to punish raw tags. I wuld be happy if they beef up its range and pushback.
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#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Yeah d+1+2 range is fairly short... that's the one weakness this move has. And DEWGF does punish it like npnp. But it's perfect against high moves with lots of forward movement.
Signature "In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"
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#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Hmmmm... I must say, I went to practice mode and... Howling you were right all the while. d+1+2 is not as cool on block as I thought... It's weird how I didn't see this move on block a lot of times before (really, I'm shrugging. most of the times I used it, it was a successful launch or a horrible whiff)... there is good pushback (safe from most launchers as I said) but that's only if you block it at the edge, like most pushback moves anyway. And that's the problem... since the range is so short its pretty hard to have it spaced correctly. So... not cool.

Oh well... not a big problem with me because I just go ballsy with that move when I feel like I have to.
Signature "In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"
Random noob comment upon watching my King in a TR session: "How crazy is that tiger. Someone take him to the zoo."
#BUFFANGEL #BUFFWTF
Originally posted by noodalls
Didn't think I'd ever say it, but you guys need to try to be more like Star Saber when you post.
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#19 “Quote” Edit Post
I think it's comparable to using Marduk db+1+2 (inb4noshitnigga). It's a go-big-or-go-home move, no doubt. I don't really use it, because frankly I don't know when to use it (I know it's to be used as a high crush, but I feel more comfortable using d+1,n+2), or how to use it, more like.
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Howling
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#20 “Quote” Edit Post
Honestly, I do it too (and this is just me) just when I feel when not thinking too hard. it crushes a bunch of things, and it's kind of a hail mary move. when I have my head on the game I can usually get the same results with ss hopkick, bd hopkick or cd+1, and all of these carry a lot less risk.

It's definitely usable, I'm not gonna lie, but my opponents tend to consistently launch me for blocking it, so it's a 50/50% for me.

As for the scope of the thread, I think king got nerfed yes, but his design is very favorable to this game. he would have been far broken otherwise. IMO, he's a solid mid at the very least, and a mid high at best.
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