Dragunov BR punishment

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BlackPriest
Expulsion of Fury
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#81 “Quote” Edit Post
I agree, Lars u/f+3 crushing tons of stuff is sick, but it's still punishable for a good chunk, so I don't mind that one too much. Also, bad Lars players throw it out often and you can punish them to death if you turtle more, and good Lars players use it seldomly.

I think Bob is the cheapest and most unbalanced char in the game.

Just take a look at the properties of his launchers (fast WS launch at i14 _ b,b+4 AND hopkick for low crushing _ cd+1 for a safe launcher with INSANE wallcarry _ d/b+1+2 that crushes highs and even some mids) and his NC's (hit confirmable u/f+1+2,1+2 _ f+2,3 into W! sickness _ cd+4,1+2 low-mid). And if that wasn't enough he has the sickest juggle dmg. 70-80 damage with A FRIGGIN SPIKE ENDER THAT GRANTS OKI is just ridiculous.

However I agree, BR is pretty balanced for the most part, much like DR.
tyler2k
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Posts: 2794
From: USA California
PSN: tyler2k1
#82 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Just take a look at the properties of his launchers (fast WS launch at i14 _ b,b+4 AND hopkick for low crushing _ cd+1 for a safe launcher with INSANE wallcarry _ d/b+1+2 that crushes highs and even some mids) and his NC's (hit confirmable u/f+1+2,1+2 _ f+2,3 into W! sickness _ cd+4,1+2 low-mid). And if that wasn't enough he has the sickest juggle dmg. 70-80 damage with A FRIGGIN SPIKE ENDER THAT GRANTS OKI is just ridiculous.

I agree, b,b+4 is absolutely stupid, I can't believe more people don't spam it out here.

While Bob on paper is ridiculous, you really gotta take into account how many of those moves are launch punishable. Nearly all those moves you listed are -15 or worse on block.

WS 2,1 is d/f+2 punishable
d/b+1+2 is d/f+2 punishable
u/f+1+2,1+2 is f+1+2 punishable
f+2,3 is d/f+2 punishable
CD 4 is u/f,n,4 punishable
CD 4,1+2 is d/f+2 punishable

From the list above, only u/f+1+2,1+2 is hit confirmable and one can argue that WS 2,1 is purely for punishment, as such will not just be "thrown out" in the open.

With that being said, his spike oki is stupid good and he really didn't need that in BR.
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aris
The Beard Signal
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 864
From: USA California
#83 “Quote” Edit Post
I agree with tyler, Bobs great on paper. but with knowledge and patient gameplay he gets much weaker. I dont think hes as good as people say. Know where to punish and SWL all day long.
BlackPriest
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
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#84 “Quote” Edit Post
I forgot to mention the ridiculous evasive properties of backroll...

But maybe you guys are right and the problem is that I don't know Bob well enough.

Aris mind if I do the Bob list? Not that I don't appreciate your help (in fact I would be more than happy if you could do any other char instead; that is unless you already started with Bob obviously...), but I seriously need to start working through his movelist...

I'm currently working on Anna, but that list should be finished soon...
aris
The Beard Signal
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 864
From: USA California
#85 “Quote” Edit Post
BP: Ive been really busy lately and havent had much of a chance to any characters. But ill deffinatly go throuh all the ones you have done and give input when i get a chance. Im going to japan in a few weeks so i gotta practice up for those japs.
BlackPriest
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
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#86 “Quote” Edit Post
Np man, have fun in Japan and be sure to kick some asses with your Drag!

Back to my question, you don't mind if I do the Bob list, do you?
aris
The Beard Signal
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 864
From: USA California
#87 “Quote” Edit Post
not at all amigo
BlackPriest
Expulsion of Fury
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#88 “Quote” Edit Post
Awesome.

I seriously need to learn to punish Bobs moves...

EDIT: Anna is up folks!

Last edited by BlackPriest on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 18:26

celestak
2nd Dan
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
From: USA Texas
PSN: celestak
#89 “Quote” Edit Post
6 is balanced my ass.. I need some help with Jack-6 his range is fuckin' ridiculous and damn near 3/4 of his moves have so much fuckin' pushback it's seems like barely any of his moves are punishable........ Fuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccckkk... this shit is pissing me off so much... I spot the high ending strings and punish but other than that I can't do shit against Jack...

I just need to vent I'm fighting him now online.....
Signature Celestak
Cosmic_Castaway
Dark Knight
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: USA Delaware
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#90 “Quote” Edit Post
BP, any chance you could put up the punishers for Drag himself? Have to learn to spot the weak points in my strategy so I can avoid them in the future.
Signature Some days, some nights; some live, some die in the way of the samurai. Some fight, some bleed; sun up to sun down; the sons of a battle-cry.
sandilord
Destructive Impulse
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Posts: 2093
From: Netherlands
PSN: Sandilord
#91 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Cosmic_Castaway
BP, any chance you could put up the punishers for Drag himself? Have to learn to spot the weak points in my strategy so I can avoid them in the future.
Not much time now, but to get you started:
qcf2=f44, 41
qcf3=ws2, ufn4 probably as well
ff2_132=jabs
ws13=jabs
43=jabs
f443=duck second or third hit and ws2
f33=jabs
db3=ws2
d2=ws13, ws1+2
d3=ws2
d4=ws2 (pretty sure)
d44=duck second hit and ws2
b43=duck second hit and ws2 (mixup with b421)
b421=duck last hit and ws2
f1+2=41
qcb2=41
312=41
b21=duck second hit and ws2
b213(~1+2)=lowcrush with ufn4
214=ws1+2
213=duck last hit and ws2
121=f44, 41
df14=duck last hit and ws2
db21=jabs
db212=f44, 41
d3+4 (blocked)=ws1+2
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BlackPriest
Expulsion of Fury
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
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#92 “Quote” Edit Post
Pretty good start Sandi.

I already made the Drag list for the Paul forums, I just got a little lazy with testing and transating stuff, especially from Paul to Drag (usually I test punishers with Drag first because his -12 Punishers have less range and he has two i12 WS options, then post 'em up and retest everything with Paul), and I felt Drag was one of the less important chars in this forum because Drag players should know what's risky and what's not.
But I didn't consider the Drag newbloods, so I'll be translating the list as soon as I'm done with Bob.
Cosmic_Castaway
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Posts: 1521
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PSN: Heavenstrider
#93 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by sandilord
Not much time now, but to get you started:
qcf2=f44, 41
qcf3=ws2, ufn4 probably as well
ff2_132=jabs
ws13=jabs
43=jabs
f443=duck second or third hit and ws2
f33=jabs
db3=ws2
d2=ws13, ws1+2
d3=ws2
d4=ws2 (pretty sure)
d44=duck second hit and ws2
b43=duck second hit and ws2 (mixup with b421)
b421=duck last hit and ws2
f1+2=41
qcb2=41
312=41
b21=duck second hit and ws2
b213(~1+2)=lowcrush with ufn4
214=ws1+2
213=duck last hit and ws2
121=f44, 41
df14=duck last hit and ws2
db21=jabs
db212=f44, 41
d3+4 (blocked)=ws1+2


This list pleases me very much, hahaha.

Originally posted by BlackPriest
Pretty good start Sandi.

I already made the Drag list for the Paul forums, I just got a little lazy with testing and transating stuff, especially from Paul to Drag (usually I test punishers with Drag first because his -12 Punishers have less range and he has two i12 WS options, then post 'em up and retest everything with Paul), and I felt Drag was one of the less important chars in this forum because Drag players should know what's risky and what's not.
But I didn't consider the Drag newbloods, so I'll be translating the list as soon as I'm done with Bob.


Hell, Drag newblood is an understatement. I'm a Tekken newblood, only had T6 for 2 months, and it's been about 12 years since I even touched a Tekken game. Picked up Drag because I've heard he's fairly moderate in difficulty to pick up. No one I know plays Drag though, so I figured this would be the best place to advance my game. And I appreciate the help. I look forward to the list.
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BlackPriest
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#94 “Quote” Edit Post
I see.

Drag is a lot of fun to play, but not the most newbie friendly character. Don't let this stop you from playing Drag however, if you like his style you should definitely learn him.

Bob will be up later today, and the complete Drag list in the next days.

EDIT: Bob is up.

Last edited by BlackPriest on Mar 5th, 2010 at 19:28

celestak
2nd Dan
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 21
From: USA Texas
PSN: celestak
#95 “Quote” Edit Post
I appreciate the advise on Jack-6. Thanks a million guys!!!!
Signature Celestak
Cosmic_Castaway
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PSN: Heavenstrider
#96 “Quote” Edit Post
@BP: The only trouble I seem to have with playing Drag is playing him online. Of course, my whole playing style with him is in my muscle memory, so although the lag online is only a few frames long, it screws me up entirely, not to mention makes some juggles almost impossible. Example: qcf+2, b+1+2, B! is not possible online unless you're at a connection of 4-5 quality. Any suggestions for online-safe combos, or can those be found in Drag's staples as well?
Signature Some days, some nights; some live, some die in the way of the samurai. Some fight, some bleed; sun up to sun down; the sons of a battle-cry.
BlackPriest
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#97 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by celestak
I appreciate the advise on Jack-6. Thanks a million guys!!!!


I might do Jack next if you stop being such an ass.

The fact that nobody answered your qestion might be due to the fact that Jack isn't a very common char.

Originally posted by Cosmic_Castaway
@BP: The only trouble I seem to have with playing Drag is playing him online. Of course, my whole playing style with him is in my muscle memory, so although the lag online is only a few frames long, it screws me up entirely, not to mention makes some juggles almost impossible. Example: qcf+2, b+1+2, B! is not possible online unless you're at a connection of 4-5 quality. Any suggestions for online-safe combos, or can those be found in Drag's staples as well?


Now I see. Online really sucks unless you have a genuine 4-5 bars connection. On a 3 bar connection a 4,1, 1,3,2 B! combo should always work. After a qcf+2 you could try 2,1, 1,3,2 B!, that should work even on a sucky connection.
sandilord
Destructive Impulse
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2093
From: Netherlands
PSN: Sandilord
#98 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
The fact that nobody answered your qestion might be due to the fact that Jack isn't a very common char.
That's right. I don't know Jack for shit. I know his df2 is very dangerous and ff1 doesn't give +. That's about all I know, no Jack players where I live.

Celestak: there are very helpful people here in the Drag forums who know what they're talking about (especially Tyler, BP and Aris). Next time, just pop the question again or remind us ok...
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Cosmic_Castaway
Dark Knight
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Posts: 1521
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#99 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Now I see. Online really sucks unless you have a genuine 4-5 bars connection. On a 3 bar connection a 4,1, 1,3,2 B! combo should always work. After a qcf+2 you could try 2,1, 1,3,2 B!, that should work even on a sucky connection.


Yeah, I've played tons of matches online, and it never compares to how great the game is offline. It's one of the reasons I've stopped playing competitively online. Only time I play now is with friends, but seeing as those still count towards the WLR, winning would be nice. On the 4,1 1,3,2 B! though, couldn't you mix in a 1 after the 4,1 to make the combo more consistent, or would that be pushing the connection?
Signature Some days, some nights; some live, some die in the way of the samurai. Some fight, some bleed; sun up to sun down; the sons of a battle-cry.
BlackPriest
Expulsion of Fury
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6771
From: Italy
PSN: BlackPriest_ITA
#100 “Quote” Edit Post
You can mix in a 1 for slightly more damage and more wallcarry, but for the combo to connect you'll need to do a f,f,n+1,3,2 afterwards. If you can do dash jabs consistently it's definitely a good idea, otherwise I would practice dash jabs first and stick with the 4,1, 1,3,2 combo in the meantime.

EDIT:
Drag is up.
I stated 1,3,2 and f+3,3 as 4,1 punishable, and WS+3 as not punishable. Accoring to the frame data all three strings/moves would be jab punishable but from my testing I think they are not. These 3 strings/moves are therefore subject to change, as soon as somebody can confirm or disprove this here or in the frame data thread.

Last edited by BlackPriest on Mar 7th, 2010 at 16:59

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