Dragunov BR punishment

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aris
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#41 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Exactly.

b+4,3 has not to many uses aside from doing tons of dmg when you get a wallsplat with it.
Namco should have really made this move i14 (maybe removing the NCc properties of b+4,2,1; that wouldn't bother me much), seeing as how Drag has no punisher that knocks down from -10 to -14.


I dissagree with this post so much i almost want to delete it. j/k

b43 is drag's only good whiff punisher for minor whiffs off backdash. I see whiffs in three tiers,

Major whiff = CD2

Somewhat major whiff = CD1

Minor whiff = b+43

His counter hit confirmable b421 is one of the best rage comeback tools in the game (along with his 1,2,1 with CH confirm). b43 being 14 frames would be quite good but it is very debatable if it is worth losing CH b421 for. Though he doesnt have a i14 punisher that knocks down, 4,1 seems to be acceptable enough at this point. Perhaps ive just learned to live with shitty i14s.

Interesting thought though.
aris
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#42 “Quote” Edit Post
Laws BT 22 is launch punishable.
BlackPriest
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#43 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by aris
I dissagree with this post so much i almost want to delete it. j/k

b43 is drag's only good whiff punisher for minor whiffs off backdash. I see whiffs in three tiers,

Major whiff = CD2

Somewhat major whiff = CD1

Minor whiff = b+43

His counter hit confirmable b421 is one of the best rage comeback tools in the game (along with his 1,2,1 with CH confirm). b43 being 14 frames would be quite good but it is very debatable if it is worth losing CH b421 for. Though he doesnt have a i14 punisher that knocks down, 4,1 seems to be acceptable enough at this point. Perhaps ive just learned to live with shitty i14s.

Interesting thought though.


lol

I was just saying that every time I hit somebody with b+4,3 I think about the fact that I could have juggled him with d/f+2 and that's annoying. Plus ppl get (somehow) away with too much punishable stuff against Drag with their back to the wall (especially -12 to -14 stuff bothers me when I play Drag)...
b+4,2,1 does crazy dmg on CH and in rage yes, but again, being i15 the fact that I could have juggled them with d/f+2 for maybe even a juggle to wall combo bothers me sometimes.

But than again it's just me, and I can only speak about midlevel play, unlike you.
*envy* :madasfok: lol

EDIT: Ok, thanks. Strangely Law turns bright again w/ hit analisys on a few frames before d/f+2 hits in practice mode. I know this is often the case for moves that can transition to a stance, but since you can't transition to DSS after a BT 2,2 I was unsure.
aris
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#44 “Quote” Edit Post
Coming from a Paul players perspective, I totally understand. These are just annoyances that ive learned to live with. I almost never use df2 unless its 100% guaranteed or I SSed something big. I feel that b43s safety and range cpmbined with it being done with B make it much more useable in general. You save a ton of frame on your whiff punish from a back dash because you are already holding back. Not every character can have a bullshit df2 like pauls!!! Not to mention knock down at i12 and i14. I get pissed just thinking about some of the great punishers in the game.

Im not sure about the law thing but my guess is that law can actually move for a frame or two but because he is back turned he cant do anything to avoid a launcher. Hit analasys is also at many times retarded for ne reason.
BlackPriest
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#45 “Quote” Edit Post
I see your point.



No doubt, Pauls' -12 and -14 standing punishers are stellar, and having a safe d/f+2 is awesome (having nothing from -11 to -15 for WS though isn't, and Drags d/f+2 range is great compared to Pauls, even the BR nerfed version), but it's not only Paul.
Would be interesting to know how many chars don't get a KND/wallsplat until -15. Not many I guess...
aris
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#46 “Quote” Edit Post
Im pretty sure hworang doesnt have a knockdown faster than i15. A couple of other maybes are roger jr, lei?, maybe raven?(i think im wrong about this one), or zafina? These are the only ones that MIGHT not have an i14 or faster knock down move. Im sure about everyone else.
crazy skip
Shihan
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#47 “Quote” Edit Post
what about the mishimas? especially kaz and dvj...

wouldnt there EWGF's be the greatest punisher moves they have...
or is it there 1,1,2?
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BlackPriest
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#48 “Quote” Edit Post
Aris: Just as I though, Drag is one of the very few chars that can't get a W! until -15. Very unfortunate...

CS: Mishima punishment = rape. Ewgf's at i14 (Kaz at i13), 1,1,2 for a i10 KND, Kazy's b+1,2 for a W! with great dmg at i11, good WS punishers, and the list could go on and on... But I don't necessarily want Namco to give Drag punishers that tie him w/ the best chars in the game, anything that knocks/wallsplats between -12 and -14 would be great and highly needed.
crazy skip
Shihan
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#49 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
CS: Mishima punishment = rape. Ewgf's at i14 (Kaz at i13), 1,1,2 for a i10 KND, Kazy's b+1,2 for a W! with great dmg at i11, good WS punishers, and the list could go on and on... But I don't necessarily want Namco to give Drag punishers that tie him w/ the best chars in the game, anything that knocks/wallsplats between -12 and -14 would be great and highly needed.


i dont mind if namco can give drag at least 1 or 2 punishes that can at least have a KND...

if namco made b+4,3 i14 id rape use that a lot!

do you think theres a chance that some moves will have frame changes if they plan on making another tekken console game?
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BlackPriest
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#50 “Quote” Edit Post
Possible, but not very likely imo. The frame changes I saw during the last installments of Tekken were all for the worse...
I think it's more likely for Drag to get some new moves and maybe a new punisher in the next installment. But this is pure speculation, we'll see when T7 comes out...
crazy skip
Shihan
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#51 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Possible, but not very likely imo. The frame changes I saw during the last installments of Tekken were all for the worse...
I think it's more likely for Drag to get some new moves and maybe a new punisher in the next installment. But this is pure speculation, we'll see when T7 comes out...


were most moves nerfed in most characters cases?
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tyler2k
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#52 “Quote” Edit Post
There were major balance changes from DR to T6/BR, a few notables off the top of my head
(there are some exceptions, but overall these are true for greater than 80% of the cast)

1) 10 Frame punches across the board
2) Mid, high NC strings that KND and are safe on block
3) Low, mid NC strings are launch punishable on block (either attack)
4) Low, high NC strings that are launch punishable on first block but safe on second
5) Everyone was given a stronger 12 frame punisher to combat hopkicks
6) Everyone was given an ass stun that must be teched to escape launch

In a way you can say that most moves were nerfed to better increase multiple character punishabilty, but overall the cast's common type strings were normalized to better balance the game.
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BlackPriest
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#53 “Quote” Edit Post
Yes, the changes that were for the worse of the single chars (like Steve lost his d/f+2 in DR, Bob his d/f+2 in BR, Bryan his braindead d+1 starter in DR and his d+3,2 ender in T6, and the list goes on) were all good for the balance of the game.
But I seriously doubt Namco will change a char and give him good moves because he lacks something in a specific department, if they do radical frame or property changes it's mostly because something is incredibly cheap and therefore to the worse for that char.

---

EDIT: Sandilord: Ling is up. I might have missed a few, but I hope it helps nonetheless...

---

EDIT: Jin is up. What a safe bastard.

Last edited by BlackPriest on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 17:15

sandilord
Destructive Impulse
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#54 “Quote” Edit Post
Much appreciated BP.
I skimmed through Lings stuff and saw this:

RDS 3+4,3+4 ? 1,3,2 on BT opponent

That's right, but Ling can do a reversal (I think some 1+2 notation) to prevent you from 10 frame punishing, so it seems to become a guessing game.
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BlackPriest
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#55 “Quote” Edit Post
You're welcome.

Huh? According to frame data and testing Ling is BT at -10 after that move, so unless there is some kind of transition (don't remember now and I'm currently at work) to a stance into a fast reversal she shouldn'd be able to do anything for 10 frames...
sandilord
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#56 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
You're welcome.

Huh? According to frame data and testing Ling is BT at -10 after that move, so unless there is some kind of transition (don't remember now and I'm currently at work) to a stance into a fast reversal she shouldn'd be able to do anything for 10 frames...
I SO hope you're right. I've been reversed more than once. Gotta say it's mostly online. If this is true, Ling has 1 strong weapon less to abuse. I'll ask the local Ling player as well.
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BlackPriest
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#57 “Quote” Edit Post
I checked the frame data again, I'm pretty sure she can't transition after f+3+4,3+4 and she's left at -11...

---

Hei is up. Can anybody confirm that the 2nd hellsweep is WS+1,3_WS+1+2 punishable. Frame data says (-14) (wtf why the parentheses), but with hit analysis on Hei turns bright long before these two hit.
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#58 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Hei is up. Can anybody confirm that the 2nd hellsweep is WS+1,3_WS+1+2 punishable. Frame data says (-14) (wtf why the parentheses), but with hit analysis on Hei turns bright long before these two hit.

2nd hellsweep is safe for some bloody reason. I can confirm that ws+1,3 will not punish it.
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tyler2k
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#59 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Lars
f+2,4 ? 4,1
...
b+3,4 ? 4,1
...
f,f+4,3 ? block 1st hit and u/f,N+4

Both f+2,4 and b+3,4 do not jail on block, as such both strings can be ducked to WS 2 on reaction.

As I mentioned in my post last week, f,f+4,3 is a case of
Originally posted by tyler2k
3) Low, mid NC strings are launch punishable on block (either attack)

namely the first attack on block is (in this case) u/f,n,4 and the second attack is d/f+2 punishable. Other notables include Leo d/b+4,1, Miguel d+4,3, and Yoshi (I believe) d/f+1+2,2
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BlackPriest
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#60 “Quote” Edit Post
Edited Lars and Hei, thanks guys.

Diablo: I can imagine the reason being that Hei's 1st HS doesn't KND.

Will do Lee today.

Edit: Lee is up.

Last edited by BlackPriest on Feb 5th, 2010 at 18:39

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