The Toshin video thread

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tyrax
Expert
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 124
From: Venezuela
PSN: RealTyraxTK
#41 “Quote” Edit Post
Try it out! It prevents the other player from throwing jumping attacks giving you a free launcher (You should always do d+1~5 instead of just d+1). If you add to that the fact that the hitbox is huge, it's a safe attack and a really fast move (17f but it seems to be a lot faster, lol)... There you have an excellent anti-rushing move. I'm still learning how to use it, thought
Signature You ask me if I have a god complex? Let me tell you something... I AM GOD.
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yoloswag
Shihan
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 124
From: Finland
PSN: Chief_Sona300
#42 “Quote” Edit Post
Hmm are u guys using d+1 that much? its -9 on block and +2 on hit. It even doesent leave ogre into fc. its like bobs d+1 but u cant go to crouch. gotta try that move more often....

I am still having trouble of using bf+4...I know u gotta use it after ss (?) but the range is pretty bad. any setups? maybe after you are on +frames like in df1(2)? its so good move if its used properly. safe, huge damage or red life. with Ogres u get 92 damage red life so its pretty beefy. any tips? somethimes i use it str8 from start after bdc or ss.
Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
#43 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by yoloswag
Hmm are u guys using d+1 that much? its -9 on block and +2 on hit. It even doesent leave ogre into fc. its like bobs d+1 but u cant go to crouch. gotta try that move more often....

I am still having trouble of using bf+4...I know u gotta use it after ss (?) but the range is pretty bad. any setups? maybe after you are on +frames like in df1(2)? its so good move if its used properly. safe, huge damage or red life. with Ogres u get 92 damage red life so its pretty beefy. any tips? somethimes i use it str8 from start after bdc or ss.


I didn't use d+1 that much, but after Tyrax's suggestion, I've begun to implement it in my game. The frames on hit and block are nothing special, but the hitbox is quite low for an A.Ogre mid so it can hit your opponents out of a lot of things. For some reason it does throw off people's rhythm. Tyrax's suggestion of always using d+1~5 is very on point.

I think the easiest way to connect with bf+4 is after a backdash. When I first played A.Ogre I kept on getting f+4 because I was doing bf+4 too quickly. By executing the move a little slower bf+4 came out a lot smoother. The easier it is for you to execute the move, the easier it will be for you to connect it. I don't have a lot of set-ups for it, I just like to throw it out when my opponent is in range. The easiest way to get familiar with the range is to spam the move until you're familiar with when to use it.
Signature An ounce of practice is generally worth more than a ton of theory.

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tyrax
Expert
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 124
From: Venezuela
PSN: RealTyraxTK
#44 “Quote” Edit Post
A recent match I had against a venezuelan top player. It was quite fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_SImET218
Signature You ask me if I have a god complex? Let me tell you something... I AM GOD.
[Ogre] [AncientOgre] : Main
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Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
#45 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by tyrax
A recent match I had against a venezuelan top player. It was quite fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_SImET218





Nice matches. Your Ogre team has a lot more synergy since the last match vid you showed. You're playing way more confidently, especially with A.Ogre. I like the hopkick combo you used. My biggest criticism is that you tag crash a little too often. Also doing uf+1+2,1+2 got you into trouble in the Lei/A.King match.

I think it would help you a lot if you improved your full crouch game. Most people who play Ogres let their awesome FC game go to waste because they don't crouch cancel. Ancient Ogre is not limited to ws2 and FCdf+2. After a db+1 hits A.Ogre has some of the most dangerous mid options in the game. Namely...

db+1 cc bf+4

db+1 cc d+1+2

db+1 FCdf f+3 (this version of ff+3 has tracking)

The main reason why I hit people with bf+4 all the time is because I use it in my full crouch mix-ups. No one wants to get hit by cold blade, but no one wants to get launched for 90+ damage. The fact that bf+4 safe on block puts a lot of pressure on the opponent. Even though it comes out slower FCdf f+3 can accomplish the same thing, but I prefer to use it to track steppers. Crouch Cancelling is also useful against characters that can launch -14, because you can do db+1 cc d+3. The damage isn't great, but sometimes you just want to play it safe.

T.Ogre's options aren't as good as A.Ogre, but he's the only other FC character with a safe mid launcher. FCdf f+3 or just cc ff+3 isn't as good as bf+4 but it still does tons of damage with Tag Assault. Even though it's not safe I also like to use d+1 cc df+4 with True Ogre. df+4 launches crouch, and gives a 75 damage juggle solo(df+4 ub+3~f 1 3,2 db+1 knees). If it's blocked it's -14, which isn't great but isn't launch punishable by most characters. Likewise when I don't want to risk getting launched for a cold blade, I'll use d+1 cc db+4.

A lot of people think Ogres have a weak FC game because they just do ws2 and cold blade. Since ws2 is death on block, people automatically conclude Ogres have a super unsafe mix-up. Us old school Ogre players are especially guilty of this because the easy crouch cancel that's in TTT2 wasn't present in T3 and TTT1. There was no need because we had infinity kicks for huge damage and a safe hop kick.

Namco clearly wanted to nerf A.Ogre's FC game because they made ws2 even worse than Kaz's on block, and the range is the same. Like most people they weren't thinking about crouch cancel. So luckily for us both Ogre's still wind up with safe launchers. It's because of this that I don't think A.Ogre is bottom tier at all. His full crouch game is top class, he has great punishers, throws, and lows. His tracking is bad, but unlike lots of other characters he has really good homing moves. He has everything he needs to break turtles open.

FYI, to crouch cancel, all you have to do is hold forward after a crouch jab.
Signature An ounce of practice is generally worth more than a ton of theory.

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Markymutt
Kyu
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 4
From: New Zealand
#46 “Quote” Edit Post
Awesome info Baron, I main with A.Ogre/King and with over 7000 games on PSN consider myself pretty hefty, I owe a lot of my skills to your detailed guides. so thankyou and good job!
Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
#47 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm glad I could help you guys the same way other guys helped me when I first joined the site. I think the key to playing a solid game with any given character is to have fun while playing them. The more fun you have, the more you tend to experiment and come up with new tactics.
Signature An ounce of practice is generally worth more than a ton of theory.

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tyrax
Expert
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 124
From: Venezuela
PSN: RealTyraxTK
#48 “Quote” Edit Post
I didn't actually know about db+1 FCdf f+3.
It is true I don't use AO's FC game to its full extension, and there's a reason. I've kinda adapted my gameplay to be as safe as possible. I find extremely risky to use most of his FC attacks, even though reward worth it. I really like using ws1,2 after db+1 using some variations. ws1, mix ups - ws1,(delay) 2 - ws 1,2. It's a good way to get a break and make a momentum to attack.

There are some attacks I consider to be VERY good but find it hard to use with AO, is like those movements are great, but simply doesn't fit with AO
I'm talking about d+3, f+4, f+3,2, ff n+4 and 3+4. I KNOW mastering this moves, making some good mix ups with them would improve my gameplay hugely, but haven't happen to find any good stuff with them... Any good ideas?

PD: even though I recommended you to use d+1 with AO, lately I'm finding really hard to be able to use that move too, I know is good, but is getting harder to find a good window to throw it.
Signature You ask me if I have a god complex? Let me tell you something... I AM GOD.
[Ogre] [AncientOgre] : Main
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Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
#49 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by tyrax
There are some attacks I consider to be VERY good but find it hard to use with AO, is like those movements are great, but simply doesn't fit with AO
I'm talking about d+3, f+4, f+3,2, ff n+4 and 3+4. I KNOW mastering this moves, making some good mix ups with them would improve my gameplay hugely, but haven't happen to find any good stuff with them... Any good ideas?


Doesn't fit? Tyrax my friend, A.Ogre is not Ogre without f+4. I would not play him if he didn't have 3+4.

ffn4 is usually a better version of df+1+2. It seems only Tag1 players use this, which is a shame because it's a really good move. You can use it in almost any situation where df+1+2 would hit. The difference is, due to the faster recovery, range and better tracking, you can usually get away with doing it twice in a row. Even if the opponent blocks the second one, they're stuck in FC so you can just SW away.

f+4 has been an Ogre staple since Tag1. Use it in wakes against a recovering opponent, or use it after a side step. I switch between using f+4 and bf+4. On ch df+1+2 is guaranteed for a nice chunk of damage. One of the things I dislike most about T.Ogre is that he doesn't have this move.

f+3,2 I don't really use outside of combos. If I think someone is going to tech roll FCdf+2 then I will use f+3,2~5 for a bound juggle. Outside of that, I don't use it much, except against capos. I haven't figured out the best range/rhythm to get f+3 to connect on cH yet. It's decent in wakes, but you're usually better off going for bf+4 for the damage or f+4 for the + frames.

3+4 is the main reason why I don't worry about being side stepped and side walked with AO. It's very fast, KDs/splats, is safe, and has a big hitbox for a high. It has just enough pushback that I'm not worried about jab pressure when it's guarded. This is easily one of the best homing moves in the game. I throw this out at close range all the time, and it usually gets a counter hit. This move is such a good wall splat tool, because it has good range, and catches people trying to sw away from the wall. Also hitting people with this affects their morale, and they calm down. 3+4, along with df+3 separates A.Ogre from other characters with bad tracking because he has actually has an answer to steppers.

I use d+3 all the time. It's unseeable, can't be launch punished, is +1 on hit, has decent range(same range as P.Jack db+1), and on top of all that tracks both ways. It's really a matter of how you choose to follow this up on hit. Do you poke, or do you step/walk? +1 means you can beat out any jabs with Ogre's jabs or mids with df+4. People usually like to do something after it hits so you can walk and punish them afterwards.
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tyrax
Expert
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 124
From: Venezuela
PSN: RealTyraxTK
#50 “Quote” Edit Post
Well, I say f+4 and d+3 doesn't fit with AO because it's a character made to be use keeping your opponent far away (Or maybe it's just my play style). I'm never EVER in range to actually hit f+4 or d+3, always fails, every single time. And when I close in it is so obvious in going to throw something short range... is practically useless.

A lot of characters has lots of move that keep the enemy close and gives pretty good plus frames to keep harasing. But most of AO's moves has knowdown properties, huge pushback/knowback or are negative frames (or not so positive) even on hit, so I really can't find a good moment to use any of those moves

Adding to that I just said, the great range most of AO's attacks have, it'd be a waste not to play outranging your opponent abusing those long range and fast moves. So you have to chose If it's worth sacrificing that adventage to use a couple of very good moves that could actually be pretty usefull.
Signature You ask me if I have a god complex? Let me tell you something... I AM GOD.
[Ogre] [AncientOgre] : Main
: Secondary team
Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
#51 “Quote” Edit Post
The impression I get from watching the video you linked to is that you play more of a mid and close range game with A.Ogre than a long range game. I say that because even though you did backdash to a long distance, you didn't use a lot of long range moves(ff+3) when you had the space. When you attacked you used ss4 a lot and more mid/close range moves and no f+2. ss4 strikes me as more of a mid/closer ranged move than a long ranged move. While ss4 has good max range, the real threat of it comes when it's used close enough to be mixed with mids like f+4 and bf+4. At max range ss4 doesn't have a safe mid mix-up, and is mainly a high crush.

You used ss4 at tip range perfectly for all of the battles. Ironically, because you used it at tip range your opponent had an easier time backdashing away from it. You may have had more success if you used ss4 closer. Likewise at the range you used ss4 you could have used f+2 or f+3+4 and your opponent wouldn't have been able to bd.

f+2 together with f+1+2, 3, 3+4, f+3+4 and b+3 are his main long range tools. You used 3 and b+3, but not the others. I can understand not using f+3+4 because it's negative on hit and the payoff isn't as good as ss4. I assume that's what you meant when you said A.Ogre has moves that are negative on hit, since f+3+4, d+4, db+4 and db+3 are all negative on hit. Nothing else is negative on hit except for df+2,1 and a few punishers. While I think f+3+4 should be used cautiously, it's still a decently fast high crush, and when it hits you can backdash or sw. For a low, the range is good. Still, there's no reason not to use f+2. It's his best ranged poke. The speed is good for the range, it's safe, does a nice chunk of damage, and wallsplats. People are not going to just bd away from it. f+2 can win a lot of games.

There's really not much to say about d+3. Since it doesn't high crush, or have long range, it's not easy to work into ones game. I use it to catch steppers when I'm close, but it's not super essential to AOs game. It's no big deal if you don't use d+3, but you're missing out not using ss f+4 and f+2.

Also, it only just occurred to me that you were quoting Malice in your sig.
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tyrax
Expert
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 124
From: Venezuela
PSN: RealTyraxTK
#52 “Quote” Edit Post
You're right about f+2 :/ It's one of his best moves and one of my favorites, actually. I just forget AO has that move, lol. I like df+3 too, its mid, almost safe, homing, gives a free d+3 on hit. But, as well, I forget AO has it xD

And, yes, lol, its a quote from Malice, I love that quote xD
Signature You ask me if I have a god complex? Let me tell you something... I AM GOD.
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Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1142
#53 “Quote” Edit Post
After df+3 iFCf+2 is guaranteed. It requires some timing, but the payoff is much better than d+3.
Signature An ounce of practice is generally worth more than a ton of theory.

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