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DEATH&#63722;
A Non-Bender
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1978
From: USA California
PSN: dropkick_br
#21 “Quote” Edit Post
I guess I really need to sign up for an IM sooner... I'll PM you soon if I create one, or I'll just revive my old account.

About the sidestepping column though... TBH The whole thing takes too much space on the table... You know it's bad when the column takes almost 50% of the table. IMO though the whole column needs a separate page, it tackles a different topic that's very useful, yet it's not something that you look for in a general movelist. I forgot to say it's ok for you guys to create a more in-depth move analysis page on the wiki. That's what I'm planning to do with my mains too.

About using Inatekken Jargon, I'm trying to avoid it actually. As much as possible, I want the wiki to have as less Jargon as possible, as people most of the time gets confused by it, especially newcomers. The bad thing about InaTekken Jargon too is it's not something that people will immeadiately recognize when they read it. Ex. people won't recognize that KZD means a crumple stun. When I read KND, I might recognize that it might mean Knockdown, or if I read what it means on the TZ Jargon, it's gonna be easily remembered. That's not the case on the InaTekken Jargon.

BTW if you're using gifs, be sure put them in links instead of having them show up directly at the page. Some browsers and work computers will have problems with that...

Also, added Budding, Davos and Bilal on the OP
Signature : Darnnit guys! I just heard I just got randomly booked against Jack for Tekken 7! All that buildup we did from Tekken 5 went to waste...
: Wait? I thought we are booked to do a epic triple threat match at Tekken 7? I'm even devising the spots we were doing.
: Hey bro, not only that... both of us got future endeavored...
: This is some WCW sh*t going on... Who's booking this crap?
Bilal
Destroyer
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 374
From: United Kingdom
#22 “Quote” Edit Post
The motive behind using stepping column and ina wiki jargon is, in fact, creating a comprehensive database for Hwoarang. To be honest, I still don't see the purpose of having separate movelist and frame data tables with having more than half of the information on one page while having the rest on the other, it just recreates the problem we already have on the forums and this is precisely the reason we are working on the wiki: having to browse several pages to find complete information. For example look at the following page:

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/wiki/..._Jin_Frame_Data

This page has nicely formatted frame data tables which can be sorted, however the functionality is fairly limited for a new player or someone just browsing through Devil Jin's tools. For instance:

  • It wouldn't tell me whether Devil Jin has any mid that is positive on block for frame-traps.
  • It doesn't tell me the dame of x move because I need to go to another page to find that. Rinse and repeat for every single move you want to study.
  • It doesn't tell me which moves are fast and "crush" (i.e. tech-crouching or tech-jumping), need to switch pages again. Once I find them, I need to come back here to see their frame data.
  • ....


Of course, it is very possible to have multiple ages open in separate tabs and keep switching but it defeats the very purpose of having a wiki and compile the data gathered from different sources. We have already been doing it for ages by switching between TZ, SDTekken, AvoidingThePuddle and ina wiki to get the complete picture. We now have to do the same thing, but on a single website.


In actuality, the TZ movelist tables are redundant and serve no purpose at all, in their current form at least . Here's what I have in movelist page for u/f+2:

u/f+2 - Bone Stinger - 29 dmg - m - OC KSc OCb TJ

And here's what on the frame-data page:

u/f+2 - m (#TJ) - 26f - +5 OC - +4 OC - +9 OC


The frame-data page is repeating the exact same information sans move name and damage, which can be incorporated easily considering they were removed beforehand to make it compatible with current TZ wiki format. I already read the post about having more pages, more hits etc. etc., but I don't believe these should be prioritised over ease of browsing and having comprehensive movelist on a single page.

I know the counter argument would be about having too much data on the same page, but then again, it really isn't that big of a problem. InaTekken already has it and it doesn't look cramped with too much information or badly formatted. It would be as useful for a person looking for a specific property of the move (i.e. frames on block, stun on CH, damage) as the person looking for all the available information (noodalls, for example, have somewhat achieved it for Christie but it's still incomplete).

The same would be applied for abbreviations, if a person doesn't understand the difference between simple abbreviations such as KND, PLD, FCD and SLD, these symbols are meaningless to him anyway, no harm in listing them. I mean, TZ could have listed every knockdown as KND, every launcher as JG and every stun as STN; it's much easier to understand, right? But again, there will be people who would like to differentiate between different stuns because follow-ups, traps and escapes vary. On the same note, different KND situations also change the wake-up game for both attacker and defender.

With all that being said, I still have no idea how to create a hybrid system involving abbreviations from TZ and ina. There are some overlappings where one notation on ina stands for multiple notations on TZ and vice versa. Perhaps polling will be required or we will have to come up with something else.
DEATH&#63722;
A Non-Bender
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1978
From: USA California
PSN: dropkick_br
#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Bilal
The motive behind using stepping column and ina wiki jargon is, in fact, creating a comprehensive database for Hwoarang. To be honest, I still don't see the purpose of having separate movelist and frame data tables with having more than half of the information on one page while having the rest on the other, it just recreates the problem we already have on the forums and this is precisely the reason we are working on the wiki: having to browse several pages to find complete information. For example look at the following page:


http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/wiki/..._Jin_Frame_Data

This page has nicely formatted frame data tables which can be sorted, however the functionality is fairly limited for a new player or someone just browsing through Devil Jin's tools. For instance:

  • It wouldn't tell me whether Devil Jin has any mid that is positive on block for frame-traps.
  • It doesn't tell me the dame of x move because I need to go to another page to find that. Rinse and repeat for every single move you want to study.
  • It doesn't tell me which moves are fast and "crush" (i.e. tech-crouching or tech-jumping), need to switch pages again. Once I find them, I need to come back here to see their frame data.
  • ....


Of course, it is very possible to have multiple ages open in separate tabs and keep switching but it defeats the very purpose of having a wiki and compile the data gathered from different sources. We have already been doing it for ages by switching between TZ, SDTekken, AvoidingThePuddle and ina wiki to get the complete picture. We now have to do the same thing, but on a single website.


In actuality, the TZ movelist tables are redundant and serve no purpose at all, in their current form at least . Here's what I have in movelist page for u/f+2:

u/f+2 - Bone Stinger - 29 dmg - m - OC KSc OCb TJ

And here's what on the frame-data page:

u/f+2 - m (#TJ) - 26f - +5 OC - +4 OC - +9 OC


The frame-data page is repeating the exact same information sans move name and damage, which can be incorporated easily considering they were removed beforehand to make it compatible with current TZ wiki format. I already read the post about having more pages, more hits etc. etc., but I don't believe these should be prioritised over ease of browsing and having comprehensive movelist on a single page.

I know the counter argument would be about having too much data on the same page, but then again, it really isn't that big of a problem. InaTekken already has it and it doesn't look cramped with too much information or badly formatted. It would be as useful for a person looking for a specific property of the move (i.e. frames on block, stun on CH, damage) as the person looking for all the available information (noodalls, for example, have somewhat achieved it for Christie but it's still incomplete).

The same would be applied for abbreviations, if a person doesn't understand the difference between simple abbreviations such as KND, PLD, FCD and SLD, these symbols are meaningless to him anyway, no harm in listing them. I mean, TZ could have listed every knockdown as KND, every launcher as JG and every stun as STN; it's much easier to understand, right? But again, there will be people who would like to differentiate between different stuns because follow-ups, traps and escapes vary. On the same note, different KND situations also change the wake-up game for both attacker and defender.

With all that being said, I still have no idea how to create a hybrid system involving abbreviations from TZ and ina. There are some overlappings where one notation on ina stands for multiple notations on TZ and vice versa. Perhaps polling will be required or we will have to come up with something else.



This was discussed before when we're starting the wiki, and we've done it for a reason. We have separated the movelist and the frame data table because we have been aware that on a frame data table, we need to have the frame data for EACH part of a string. Including the general properties of each move will not only make things cluttered and severely complicated for the reader, it will also make it a tedious process to make and edit.

For example: King's df+4, 3, 4~B_d4. On a frame data table it will look like:

df+4
df+4, 3
df+4, 3, 4
df+4, 3, 4~B
df+4, 3, d+4

That's already 5 rows for just one string tree. If you put the general properties, damage and hit range for that, not only it's gonna be a hard read, the writer will be burned out before he finishes it. If that wasn't hard enough, just imagine doing Nina's and Anna's...

The movelist serves as to provide a basic commands and information for the moves and strings. It's there for people to have a quick look at some attacks your character has and how the strings branch, while the frame data serves as a secondary table for... well, frames... They are not meant to be a in-depth guide, they are just printer-friendly references. That's why I'm kinda picky about the formatting for those two pages.

And based on what you are planning to do, you want to make a move in-depth guide with Hwoarang, which is I'm glad to hear but I really want it to be on another page. I understand the usefulness of the stepping column but putting it to a universal movelist means we have to also consider making a stepping column for all other 58 characters, which as you can see, not everybody has the ability, resources, and time to do so. That's why we need to make a universal setup in mind (which covers the basic things for the character and keep things standardized) and why I made that "Specific Character Guides" area for the wiki character pages (so people who want to make more in-depth guides will be catered too). I know each character needs to have a different kind of guides and not every user will not be able to give as much information as they can. You can freely create a new page with "Tekken Tag Tournament 2/Hwoarang/Stepping Guide_Move Analysis" as a standardized name.

Last thing is, Yes I understand how some people would want a more detailed guide (that's basically the prime reason you want to consider InaTekken Jargon), and we see that too, but yes, it make the guide more complicated than it should. Some things that's on the InaTekken Jargon can be easily be added as a footnote, and some can easily be discovered by just playing. Again, people are saying that Tekken is too complicated already, and I don't want that impression to last because we got too many jargon that only martians will understand. That's why we want to have as less jargon as we can.

My vision for this wiki is to have references and guides that's easy to access and read for the readers, and easy to edit and create for the writers, so that they will spend less time on the wiki and more time playing. I hope you understand.
Signature : Darnnit guys! I just heard I just got randomly booked against Jack for Tekken 7! All that buildup we did from Tekken 5 went to waste...
: Wait? I thought we are booked to do a epic triple threat match at Tekken 7? I'm even devising the spots we were doing.
: Hey bro, not only that... both of us got future endeavored...
: This is some WCW sh*t going on... Who's booking this crap?
CrouchJabPanic
Master
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 177
From: Spain
#24 “Quote” Edit Post
Please take all the information you want of this thread http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...threadid=125509
And tell me if I can help somehow
Kilvoctu
Raijin
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 647
From: USA Texas
#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Didn't know I was credited for something as minor as proofreading. Lovely.

I filled in all the moves for Alisa and Roger Jr. (except his basics); hope it looks good. I will put in the rest tomorrow (move properties and whatnot, as well as any other fixes).
By the way, not too sure about RC (recover crouching). Does that mean the character performing a move will be in a crouching state afterward?
Signature Mains - and
DEATH&#63722;
A Non-Bender
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1978
From: USA California
PSN: dropkick_br
#26 “Quote” Edit Post
^
^
^
Yep, you got RC right...

Also, I'm thinking about making a page for all the links for movelists and frame data at the time, but I gotta collect all the damage data first...

@CrouchJabPanic thanks bro... I'll add them as soon as we finish the movelist and other things... Thanks for the contribution!!
Signature : Darnnit guys! I just heard I just got randomly booked against Jack for Tekken 7! All that buildup we did from Tekken 5 went to waste...
: Wait? I thought we are booked to do a epic triple threat match at Tekken 7? I'm even devising the spots we were doing.
: Hey bro, not only that... both of us got future endeavored...
: This is some WCW sh*t going on... Who's booking this crap?

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