T7 Lee Guide

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Murakumo
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#141 “Quote” Edit Post
So, I'm using the overlay, but the overlay has some clear limitations. Still, it could be useful for giving an idea of some things to test out. I'll be competing in Master Cup in late November, and I'm starting to put more time into practice and play (went up to 13th Dan in arcade yesterday, so yay?), so I'll have some friends help me test some things out. Of course, I would be happy if you guys could help test things too. Some recent things I have found recently that I suspected, and results from the frame overlay...

u/b+3 is -13, but further out (or later) it is -12. The last frame it can hit leaves it -11 on block. This could be useful to find some situations where, probably depending on character size, even if they stand and block it becomes less punishable.

d/f+1 is -1, but it looks like it may also be active for 3 frames. If you hit d/f+1 far in the distance, it becomes 0 (at least according to the frame overlay--so we need to test). VERY occasionally very far out, it noted +1. The distance is too iffy to use this reliably, but if it is true, I wonder if it could have some wakeup applications or something.

2,2 is -13
2>2 (delay the second hit as late as you can) still looks like it's NCc, and is usually showing -12 on the overlay, and occasionally I get -11). Again, that's what the overlay says--let's test!

... this would match with Roger Jr.'s old d/f+1,2...
d/f+1,2 was NC, -10 on block
d/f+1>2 medium delay was NC, -9 on block
d/f+1>2 max delay was not NC, -8 on block

If this is the case for Lee, it could be useful just to maintain a bit of safety. As mentioned though, looks like the overlay has some issues, so we should manually test, too.
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underthesun
1st Dan
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 14
#142 “Quote” Edit Post
So basically, d3->HMS which is -15 means it's practically -16 or more because you have to first cancel with d/b right? Or could be more, if you don't time the d/b and b just in time?

Fun fact, I tested on the lab the other day on lee vs lee, and if your opponent's lee does d3->HMS and it hits, you can win against all his moves with d2, including the armor move. For some strange reason I'm not sure why, but it looks like the armor move just runs out on time.
Murakumo
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#143 “Quote” Edit Post
It means it's an easy -15 (hold back) and looks like a possible -14 with perfect cancel (d/b~b on the appropriate frames).
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Morninglord
Synthetic Insanity
Joined: Mar 2005
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PSN: Morninglord
#144 “Quote” Edit Post
Sup guys I just managed to get the computer to block after b+11hms by doing db n b, so lee does a backdash. In practice mode record obv.

For those who don't know, db will also count as the first b of bb if you go to neutral in between the two inputs of db n b. That's why kbdc works ie bb, dbnb, dbnb. You can start kbdc without bb, people just do it because its easier to do the first bbackdash that way. That is what i did here.

https://youtu.be/AEz61bL64Is

edit: i am embed deficient. :/

edit2: this is the timing for the db b

https://youtu.be/gchtDnzsFDM

there's no difference on hit or block for this timing

as you can see in the first vid, no matter how much i mash that dang d+1 or 1 jab in recovery, i can't hit him, its all blocked. and he almost managed to back away from uf+4, it gets blocked right at the tip of the knee.

oh, and ws 15 frame after d+3 hms shows as "punish" so that one is probably -15 based on how this works. I have never seen punish pop up during any of my tests on b+11hms, no matter what I hit the other lee with. And as it turns out, its all blockable, which is why. The "punish" indicator tells the truth at least.

So yeah, I'd bet good money d+3hms is launch. However doing this block technique does at least stop you from eating even worse shit. For example, without the cancel, lee can FC uf4 launch (the law somersault). If you do the cancel right, it gets blocked. Yay I guess. :/

Last edited by Morninglord on Sep 30th, 2017 at 09:41

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Murakumo
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#145 “Quote” Edit Post
Oh, sorry I didn't respond to this earlier... the computer set to record does weird things out of HMS trying to block, so it only does it with that cancel. In reality, just d+3~4,[HMS]~B will be -15 (block Katz WS+2), with not tricky timing. However, recording this, the computer won't block... seems to be some limitation with the record feature. Maybe this is why some frames are messed up in the overlay.
Overlay shows the perfect d/b cancel timing can be -14... however, I'm unsure if that will only block an i14 low and get hit by i15 mid anyway because of the frame of the d/b itself.
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Murakumo
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#146 “Quote” Edit Post
Oh, sorry I didn't respond to this earlier... the computer set to record does weird things out of HMS trying to block, so it only does it with that cancel. In reality, just d+3~4,[HMS]~B will be -15 (block Katz WS+2), with not tricky timing. However, recording this, the computer won't block... seems to be some limitation with the record feature. Maybe this is why some frames are messed up in the overlay.
Overlay shows the perfect d/b cancel timing can be -14... however, I'm unsure if that will only block an i14 low and get hit by i15 mid anyway because of the frame of the d/b itself.
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Murakumo
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#147 “Quote” Edit Post
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Murakumo
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#148 “Quote” Edit Post
I am pretty sure I need to edit the first page pretty heavily by now with things that have changed or have been clarified...

Did some more testing on HMS cancels from lows...

d+3~4,B seems to block immediately.

FC,d/f+4~3,B does not allow you to block immediately upon recovery. RB Norway seems right, even though I thought it was wrong saying that with the HMS cancel it's -12. However, here are the caveats...
- You cannot perform an action until frame 13.
- You cannot cancel to block by just holding B like after d+3~4
- Just holding B you'll take until at least frame 17 to block (Kaz WS+2 hits)
- You can power crush with [HMS]3 or punch parry with b+1+2
- Punch parry has a frame of start-up... that means it'll come out on the same frame as we can block from (we need a cancel for the block)
- HMS 3 doesn't actually power crush until its 4th frame I guess? I'll crush vs. i16 here, but not i15. The noise/sparkle comes out from the first frame (vs. i13 here).
- The quickest cancel for block is i14 it seems
- Punish parry also works vs. i14 at quickest
- i13 punishes seem to be guaranteed even though Lee has "recovered" for one frame.
- To block, you basically need a qcb input. It seems like you can get this into the buffer frames, which makes it consistent once you're used to it--the timing is tight, but not JF.

So FC,d/f+4~3, [HMS] qcb is safer than FC,d/f+4, but only by one frame and only if you get good at the cancel for block.

Close/mid, FC,d/f+4 is -14, and FC,d/f+4~3,[HMS]qcb is -13
Far, FC,d/f+4 should be -13, and thus FC,d/f+4~3,[HMS]qcb should be -12

I also tested this to see if it affects d+3~4,[HMS], however, just holding B seems to block on the first frame in this case (at -15, blocks from 16). I could not block, punch parry, or the real test, get HMS 3 sound or sparkle vs. i15 punish, meaning it is well and truly -15.
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Murakumo
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#149 “Quote” Edit Post
Still have a chunk to add, but I corrected a lot of older information on the first page that wasn't right. Will add video links.
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Murakumo
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#150 “Quote” Edit Post
qcb HMS cancels seem to apply to most moves that transition to HMS, aside from d+3. Works on FC,d/f+4, b+4, d/f+4, WS+4, and b+1:1. Using b+1:1,3+4:qcb for example leaves you at -1, which is quite good on block. If you hunt for 2,2, you'll trade with magic 4, but most people won't react that quick in case you finish the string.

This can be cancelled to backdash, too, so for example if you bb+4 or b+4 to HMS and whiffed, if you want to simultenously be able to block and create space to maybe create a whiff punish, you can :qcBB out of it to recover faster (less punishable by 3-4 frames) and get moving into that backdash.
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Murakumo
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#151 “Quote” Edit Post
After 4,3,3 from behind, f+2,1 cannot be avoided via holding B (hits from front) or D/B (hits from behind). It can, however, be turn-blocked by the opponent holding F. d/f+4 is full guaranteed though.

If you are behind, you can 50/50 with another 4,3,4 (beats holding B or F) or f+2,1 (beats holding B or D/B).

So a weird thing happens from behind... Your hits from the back build momentum, which is why I listed the second set high as 4,3,4...

4,3,3 doesn't seem to guarantee anything in most cases after the second use. This momentum builds up on hits from behind. So, normally 4,3,3, to f+2,1 will push them so far away on hit that you can't follow up.

This is good to know after punch party, as I think 4,3,3 does the same damage as 2,2,3, and also catches opponents turning with B, but it leaves you with mixup after, or maybe at least d/f+4 for more overall damage on hit (or f+2,1 if they don't know to block with F).

Aside from punch party, though, there's another good use. 4,3,3 will push you slightly right each use on opponent's side or back. From back, d/f+1,2,2, while it would hit guaranteed on frames, is too far away and can be avoided by a turning opponent, especially with D/B which while slower, creates a lot of space.

...however, if you hit 4,3,3 from the opponent's left (Lee's SSR), some funny things happen. First, it guarantees the 4,3,3 and pushes you toward their back, but at an angle.
Second, f+2,1 is still blockable in the same way with F, but still beats B (front) and D/B (back). Notably, because the 4,3,3 hit from the side, there is no "standing momentum" built as with hits from the back.. this means that if you do hit with f+2,1 when they try to turn D/B, they are not pushed far away as if you had done it from behind but they ARE far enough to the back that they cannot quick recovery, guaranteeing d,d/b+4 in this situation, which hits grounded, launches B recovery from front, and quickstanders from behind.

Now, if the opponent knows to turn F to block f+2,1, in this situation d/f+1,2,2 is a better option. Because of the angle and lack of standing momentum, it becomes guaranteed vs. all options here against normal characters (not Kuma, unsure of other bigs because it sometimes hits as d/f+1,2 here on Kuma), basically, then just react with angle. If they turned B, you get d/f+1,2,2. If they tried F, you have a funky angle but get d/f+1,2,2,1,3. If they turned with d/b, you get. A slightly better angle and get d/f+1,2,2,1, 3,3.

So on normal characters, if you get 4,3,3 from 90 degrees to their left or a little further, you can get fully guaranteed d/f+1,2,2 or more depending on their reaction. If they don't know to turn block with F, you can get f(2,1 for even more damage.

Last edited by Murakumo on Mar 7th, 2018 at 07:45

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tk947
Kyu
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
From: Malaysia
#152 “Quote” Edit Post
Hi Murakumo, not sure if this has been pointed out before.

After W!, b+2~f,N, f+4,3, the followup d+3 doesn’t seem to be guaranteed on big characters like Bears, Jack and Gigas. Doesn’t matter for bears since u can follow up with d+4,4,4>4 for max damage.
Alternate combos for Jack and Gigas i use is b+2~f,N, 4,u+3 or 2, 2, 4,3>4 (slightest delay for low wall hit, max damage i think)
M0B
War Lord
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 752
From: Germany
#153 “Quote” Edit Post
http://tekkengamer.com/2017/06/14/h...also-available/

Why does this page say that Lee should be stepped to the left, when the only move that really tracks to lees left (opponent right) is 3? For a better understanding, you'd step away from the 3, but you eat everything that tracks to lees right, or in other words, why wouldn't you want to step to his right? What am i missing?

Homing moves aren't really accounted for that list and lets be honest, lees homing moves are useless (slow mid, b,b motion high and another stance depended high) on a decent level.


edit: Couldn't wait for an answer. You are supposed to step to the left cause of f+2 _ 3 and maybe 2,1.. but that's pretty much it. WS+2 _ 4 _ f,f+4 and slide all track to his right.

Imho the page should suggest to mostly step right, but lets face it, lee doesn't have any moves that are really dangourus anyway. Btw yes, all the other moves that i tested right now are liniar and can be stepped in both directions.

Last edited by M0B on Aug 24th, 2018 at 06:17

M0B
War Lord
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 752
From: Germany
#154 “Quote” Edit Post
Ok wtf
f,f+4 (not ch) dash b+3,3~f combo
b,b+4 dash b+3,3~f combo
u/f+3,4 dash b+3,3~f combo
CH d+3~4, N,b+3,3~f combo
SS 1,3:3:3, b+3,3~f combo

also CH HMS (1,)4 is the same as CH (1,2,)4 now.

Especially d+3 is insane and might get removed. Only works after you go into HMS from my testing.

Combo structure with these is simple medium damage though due to being mostly off axis e.g.:

f,f+4, b+3,3~f, b+2~f, 2,1,4, S! f+2,1
AZYG4LYFE
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#155 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by M0B


Especially d+3 is insane and might get removed. Only works after you go into HMS from my testing.



I highly disagree with that for a few personal reasons (might not speak for everyone).

1. i16 low on CH that is relatively unsafe should at least yield good reward for the cancel to b+3,3 which isn't so difficult, but underpressure, if you're going for max dmg, you may mess up your timing.

2. Lee was made stronger intentionally, I believe this is part of what has contributed to his strength increase.
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Murakumo
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#156 “Quote” Edit Post
i16 for d+3? Did something change? I could have sworn it's been i15 forever (unless at the very, very tip of the foot).

-------------------------------
tk947... sorry the reply is so late. I've played about 3 hours of T7 in the last year. Just loaded it back on my PC last night and did my first round of season 2 testing.
... anyway, vs. bigs you can try using 3 instead of d+3. Should be the same damage I think, and it's a frame faster. That always used to work, and it might be just enough to edge out their ability to stand block--sometimes it's a single frame of difference.

So... b+2~f,N, f+4,3, 3

This could be really good for pressure afterwards, too, since 3 recovers so quickly now (3~4, [HMS] only? Raw 3 as well?).

-------------------------------
As far as the dash b+3,3 pick-up combos, I don't feel they're too hard. If you could ff~b+2 in T6, you can ff~b+3 no problem in T7. They were actually possible in season 1, but the timing was much less forgiving (now I can be consistent, but was not in season 1).

-------------------------------
Specifically for the d+3 pickup, I recommend HMS cancelling with qcb.
qcb just before recovery used to make some HMS cancels recover faster (FC,d/f+4~3,B was -18 to block I think, whereas FC,d/f+4~3:qcb was -13... not sure if that holds true for season 2).
This is actually not the case for d+3~4, though... you aren't able to block any faster, or do a move any faster for that matter. HOWEVER, what it does is keep you from doing HMS 3 for being too early. If your 3 is early in this case, just nothing comes out. If your 3 press was late, you hit b+3,(3) and you're safe. If your 3 press is the right time, you get the pick up.
So... it appears d+3~4:qcb+3,3 eliminates the possibility to whiffing HMS 3. Seems useful.

Also, I wrote the qcb as a just frame, but it's a little more lenient than that. I think it just has to be in the buffer period right before recovery, which is large enough to allow you to execute it consistently with practice.
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Murakumo
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#157 “Quote” Edit Post
More info for wall finish on bigs...

b+2~f,N, f+4,3, 3
does indeed work. 3 does 12 damage as compared with d+3 doing 13. Hits while they're still grounded.

Also, on quickstand, in testing, as far as I can find it seems like there's at least one frame (maybe only 1 frame) that they cannot block when they stand. You can see this in a quickstand from 1,3:3:3 into f+3+4 (hits them standing, can't block it seems). The d+3 finish on bigs appears the act the same way.

So with b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3
... at least on Marduk, he can stand but it looks like he can't block it. He actually takes more damage when this happens (17 vs. 13), but you're left at - frames as it's d+3 on normal hit.
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Murakumo
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#158 “Quote” Edit Post
update: 1,3:3:3 into f+3+4 can be blocked. The computer is just dumb, even with stand settings and block all. Same with b+2~f,N, f+4,3, d+3 on bigs most likely.

Also, re-tested for season 2. FC,d/f+4~3:qcb is still the quickest way to recover on that. Blocks i14. It's technically -12, but even with the cancel, it doesn't seem you can block i13.
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Murakumo
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#159 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm finding some interesting stuff with HMS cancels now that I have a way to try scripting things down to the frame (though because of frame loss/overlap, sometimes I have to run it a few times to get something to hit/connect).

In some spring kick punishes vs. Feng, d+3 leaves Lee +13 (WS+2,3 gets block), and d+3~4, [HMS] leaves Lee +15 ([HMS] 1+2 hits). Unlike some other HMS cancels, it doesn't seem like you can buffer a QCB into this one really for recovery.

Canceling with B takes 2 frames:
- from +15, [HMS] B:f+1+2 (i13) will hit, but B:f+2,1 (i14) will not

Canceling with D/F takes 1 frame:
- from +15, [HMS] D/F:N+2,3 (i14) will hit, but D/F:u/f+4 (i15) will not


So that makes me wonder, too, about other HMS cancels that might recover faster from crouch by one frame. Namely, if d+3 can be made any more safe (no bufferabe period, so it would have to be just frame to block 1f faster--will try to nail down frame data on this. I am pretty certain RBNorway is wrong with d+3 speed to hit at least--it's almost definitely i15, not i16... at +6, d+1~F, d+3 cleanly beats low jab by a frame. i16 trades [like d+1, FC,d/f+4]).

Anyway, the other area to investigate, IMO, is whether we can guarantee u/b+3 after f+4,3 on the wall. That 1 frame diffference may well be the frame needed to keep U to stand~block from working.
Gonna test: (w) b+2~f,N, f+4,3~3+4, [HMS]D/F:u/b+3

... if that works, probably just frame, but still cool. =)
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Murakumo
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#160 “Quote” Edit Post
d+3 doesn't allow cancels to block any faster--holding B blocks at first recovery frame. This is another example of Namco's inconsistent coding for moves across games (MS cancel properties also depend on when they were added, lol).

d+3~4~B blocks on the first possible frame. i15 punish registers as a true punish.

FC,d/f+4~3~B does not follow this rule--it follows the same rule as d+3~4 does for attacking, which is that a D/B or D/F cancel takes 1 frame and a B cancel takes 2 frames. The move itself is technically -12. Recovers on frame 13. Holding B takes 13+2=15 frames to block. A qcb buffer (gives D recovery) allows you to block in 13+1=14 frames. If this move had the same properties as d+3~4, then we would be given the actual block on frame 13... but alas, Kaz can relax because we don't get to do that.

b+4~3, b+1:1,3+4, d/f+4~3, WS+4~3, d+4,4,4,4~3, and f+4,3~4 all seem to have cancel properties in line with FC,d/f+4~3 (but somehow, I feel the f+4,3~4 recovers quite a bit more slowly than listed).

Basically, just d+3~4 has its own instant-block-on-recovery property.


---------------------------------------
As far as mist steps, d/f+3+4 and b+3,3~f,N have their own properties separate from the others. You can now SS out of their mist step, which you couldn't do before patch N or whatever it was. However, you still cannot dash out of them... even if you hammer forward, you have to wait for the full MS. There is, then, no dash install either (an extra f buffered into the MS to allow the next f on recovery to give ff).

The only way to dash out of these is ~f,N, then d/f~f,f on recovery. There is no point from b+3,3~f,N, but this can actually be useful to connect things off the rage drive better. The timing is so tight and prohibitive though that it might as well not be a thing. If they programmed it like the other MS cancels, it wouldn't be as much of a problem and we could hit some cool stuff...
(Prime example: d/f+3+4~f,N, f*:F, 4,u+3, b+2~f,N...)

Why Namco, why... just, why?
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