Dragunov BR punishment

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tyler2k
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#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Thanks.

Yes, I feel the same. 2 damage more is just not enough compared to the awesome frame advantage of 4,1 in an actual match, and 35 dmg is very bad for a 14 frames punisher.
However, I guess we should keep the punish list this way, because this way it's clear what moves are -14, just in case someone wants to use other moves like a f,f+1+2 grab for example.
But then again that's just me. And the downside is that f+4,4 has better range than 4,1, thus making it impossible too see where 4,1 can be used instead of f+4,4 if I keep the list this way.
Ideas everybody? Shall I edit it?

Tyler: Thanks, will include this when doing the punishment list for Marduk.

EDIT: Wang is up.

Well there are certain moves that are -14 but are clearly in range for 4,1 punishment, certain hop kicks such as Raven f,f+3 and Miguel u/f+4. I too agree with Aris that 4,1 is superior for punishment in almost every way and f+4,4 being -1/0 on hit is an absolute joke. I personally think the only two punishers that are viable are 4,1 and b+3. When I originally wrote the Manifesto the 14 frame punisher I continuously referred to was f+4,4 mainly because I figured the punisher with the most damage is the superior, but what I didn't realize at the time was how bad the frames on hit were. Also it's misleading range and tendency to whiff notable -14 moves at certain ranges leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As such I never use f+4,4 for punishing and almost exclusively use 4,1 or b+3 for pushback punishment.

In any case I too appreciate what you're doing, keep up the good work.
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BlackPriest
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
I guess I'll edit the lists and include 4,1 on -14 moves where appropriate. I'll write 4,1 first and then f+4,4. That way it's clear that 4,1 should be used for punishing (unless 2 dmg more could kill them; I doubt it's possible to see a 2 points difference in the 180 hp lifebar though) and it's clear which moves are -14.

Oh, and:
The BR Drag forums are very good actually compared to other char specific forums, I felt this was the only thing missing. Couple that with the fact that I really need to improve my own punishment and this work is actually enjoyable.
But obviously I appreciate any help, so keep posting when you feel I missed something or if you have suggestions for the lists.
The only somehow frustrating part about it is searching the frame datas before doing the actual testing. INA is often the only source, and while being very accurate for the most part, the different notations and the fact that I must rely on the translator plugin of Firefox for the text (because I don't understand Japanese unfortunately) is a pain...
aris
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Ill do Bob and Hworang in the next few days so dont worry about them. Ill post them up and you can just copy and paste to the first posts.
lambech
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#24 “Quote” Edit Post
I am working on understanding Nina. I will do my best to contribute.
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BlackPriest
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks guys, much appreciated.

I'll do Law next.

Aris: Here's a Hwoarang frame data (translated from INA for SDTekken by Nerichagi) if you don't have it already: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0A...l=es&pli=1.

Didn't find any Bob frame data unfortunately except for INA: http://wiki.livedoor.jp/inatekken/d...cd%ad%b5%bbTBR.

lambech: Here's the Nina frame data from INA Tekken: http://wiki.livedoor.jp/inatekken/d...%cd%ad%b5%bbTBR

They use the numbers of the num pad for the directionals (2 = d, 6 = f, 3 = d/f, ect.), WP means both punches, WK both kicks. Hope it helps.

Last edited by BlackPriest on Jan 24th, 2010 at 10:30

Moosetaine
meh
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Posts: 2069
From: Philippines
#26 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest

Lars

WS+2,1 ? WS+1,32 _ WS+1+2
FC d/f+1+2 ? WS+1,32 _ WS+1+2



um, is this a typo?
BlackPriest
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
Exactly.

Edited.
lambech
Lone Wolf
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Thanks guys, much appreciated.

I'll do Law next.

lambech: Here's the Nina frame data from INA Tekken: http://wiki.livedoor.jp/inatekken/d...%cd%ad%b5%bbTBR

They use the numbers of the num pad for the directionals (2 = d, 6 = f, 3 = d/f, ect.), WP means both punches, WK both kicks. Hope it helps.


Much appreciated with the help BP.
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aris
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From: USA California
#29 “Quote” Edit Post
Heres what i got for Hworang. I might have missed some stuff because this is a pretty complicated character and ive never played him.

Left Foot Forward

1,1,3,3- Low parry the third hit.
3,3,3- 4,1
3,3,d+3- Low parry the third hit.
4,4,3- WS 2
4,4,4,3- Low parry or uf,n+4 the 4th hit.
f+3~3- df+2
f+1+2- -9. Mix up.
df+3,3- 4,1
df+3,4_df+3,f+4- Duck the second hit and WS+2
d+3- WS+1+2
d+3,3- block low and WS+2 after the 2 high kicks whiff.
d+3,4- Block low and WS+2 after the high kick whiffs.
d+4- WS+2
d+4,4- Block low and WS+2 after the high kick whiffs.
d+3+4- WS+1+2
db+3- WS+1+2
db+4- WS+1+2
db+4,4- Second hit is duckable even if the first hits. WS+2
b+3- 4,1
ub+4- f+4,4
uf+3+4,4- 4,1
ff+4- Hworang is stuck BT on block, 1,3,2 is guaranteed.
bb+4,3_bb+4,4,3- 4,1
CD+4_Sky Rocket- df+2
CD+3+4,3- qcb+2 away from the second hit.
SS+3- 2,1
SS+3,3- Duck the second hit and WS+2
SS+4- WS+1+2
BT+4- 4,1 if blocked deep and df+4 is blocked shallow.

Right Foot Forward

2,4,3- WS+1+2
2,b+4- 2,1
3,4- Duck the second hit, WS+2
4,3- WS+1+2
f+4~4- 4,1
f+3,4- Low parry or uf,n+4 the second hit.
d+4- WS+4
db+3- -9 on block.
f+4- 2,1
ff+4,3- Duck the second hit and WS+2
BT+3- 4,1
BT+4,3- qcb+2 away from the second hit.
BT++3- WS+1+2

Left Flamingo

3,3- 4,1
3,4- Duck the second hit and WS+2.
f+3,3- Duck the third hit and WS+2.
f+4,3- Duck the second hit and WS+2
d+3,4- Duck the second hit and WS+2
d+4- WS+2
db+3- WS+4
db+4- WS+1+2
uf+4- 4,1
2,2,3,4- Low parry the fourth hit.

Right Flamingo

2,4,3- WS+1+2
2,b+4- 2,1
f+3,4- Duck the second hit and WS+2
f+4,4- Duck the third hit and WS+2
d+3- WS+2
d+4,3- Duck the second hit and WS+2
db+4- WS+4
b+3- df+2
b+4- 2,1
1,2,3,4- Low parry the fourth hit.
Moosetaine
meh
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2069
From: Philippines
#30 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by aris

ff+4- Hworang is stuck BT on block, 1,3,2 is guaranteed.


if 1,3,2 is guaranteed then maybe 1,3,1,2,4,1+2 could also be guaranteed, I'm not sure though.
BlackPriest
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#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Aris: Awesome, thanks a lot. Will edit the post later today.

Just tested and edited f+4,4 punishers included 4,1 where it hits.
aris
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#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Moosetaine
if 1,3,2 is guaranteed then maybe 1,3,1,2,4,1+2 could also be guaranteed, I'm not sure though.


13124,1+2 is never guaranteed on side or back. The opponent can always duck under the third hit.
Moosetaine
meh
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From: Philippines
#33 “Quote” Edit Post
oh I see, didn't know that. How about b+2,1,3 after hwo's ff+4 would it hit or is it too slow?
sandilord
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#34 “Quote” Edit Post
Any chance on doing Ling soon? The bitch rapes me and seems to evade EVERYTHING or be safe.
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BlackPriest
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#35 “Quote” Edit Post
Sure, why not. Gonna do her as soon as I'm done with Law.
crazy skip
Shihan
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#36 “Quote” Edit Post
obviously i dont i have all day to look at all characters that are finished... but ive seen 2-3 so far...

and none of them have b+4,3 punishes...
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tyler2k
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#37 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by crazy skip
obviously i dont i have all day to look at all characters that are finished... but ive seen 2-3 so far...

and none of them have b+4,3 punishes...

I'm pretty sure that's because b+4 is i15 and nearly everything that can be b+4'd can be d/f+2'd. The only exception that immediately comes to mind is Lars' u/f+3.
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BlackPriest
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#38 “Quote” Edit Post
Exactly.

b+4,3 has not to many uses aside from doing tons of dmg when you get a wallsplat with it.
Namco should have really made this move i14 (maybe removing the NCc properties of b+4,2,1; that wouldn't bother me much), seeing as how Drag has no punisher that knocks down from -10 to -14.
crazy skip
Shihan
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: New Zealand
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#39 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by BlackPriest
Exactly.

b+4,3 has not to many uses aside from doing tons of dmg when you get a wallsplat with it.
Namco should have really made this move i14 (maybe removing the NCc properties of b+4,2,1; that wouldn't bother me much), seeing as how Drag has no punisher that knocks down from -10 to -14.


Originally posted by tyler2k

'm pretty sure that's because b+4 is i15 and nearly everything that can be b+4'd can be d/f+2'd. The only exception that immediately comes to mind is Lars' u/f+3.


thanks both for the info.. i need to get refreshed with drags frame data again...
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BlackPriest
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#40 “Quote” Edit Post
No problem.

And I would punish Lars' u/f+3 always with 2,1 for a 1, dash 1, dash 1,3,2 B! float juggle. It does a few points more than b+4,3. I included b+4,3 nonetheless in the list for Lars for the lazy moments or when the opponents back is to the wall.

---

Law is up. Anybody an idea if BT 2,2 is d/f+2 punishable? Frame data says yes (-15), my testing with hit analisys says no.

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