Testing input frame data with 2P PStick

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noodalls
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#301 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by |Galen|
Ahhh, right on! Damn. I was really hoping there was a way to get it. Thanks for using your powers to test it for me, though!!!


http://www.mediafire.com/?983ddh48p2fjzon
|Galen|
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#302 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks again, Noodalls!

1f too slow!

Any way to make QCF2 hit?! Like buffer the d on the last frame of d/f+1 recovery? I doubt it, but it would be funny.
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noodalls
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#303 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by JFK[satZ]
noodalls, could you possible look up during which frames Kazuya's f+2 is a punch sabaki?

From what little I have experienced with him so far is that it differs quite a bit to other characters punch sabakis (which I found strange). So I think the window is smaller than average and doesn't start as early.

/ JFK


What was wrong with my answer from a year ago?

F3-7 retested now, same answer.

Protip - click the print icon, choose 200 posts per page and search.
noodalls
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#304 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by |Galen|
Thanks again, Noodalls!

1f too slow!

Any way to make QCF2 hit?! Like buffer the d on the last frame of d/f+1 recovery? I doubt it, but it would be funny.


Seems like all of qcf+2 can be buffered. Still doesn't hit. Blockable if done ASAP.
noodalls
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#305 “Quote” Edit Post
Note this is work in progress. I need to go back through and achieve consistency in the reported inputs.

BT FAQ
Figures of 7F and others are often suggested in terms of how long it takes to turn around from BT. I decided to have a look at how long it takes using my standard methods.

Methods
Playstation 3 and Tekken 6
2P programmable stick for command entry
Hauppauge HD PVR for 60fps capture
AVIdemux for visual analysis
Lei and Lili vs Jack6

Basic tests
Lili BT with b+3+4
Lili holds B F0-6, blocks F7
Lili hold B F0-5, hits F6 turn to face
Lili hold B F0-3, hits F4 turn to face
Lili hold B F0-2, hits F3 remains BT


Same result with Lei b+3+4


Intermediate tests
Lili db input for 1F
If input the frame before the high hit connects, it will be ducked.
If input the frame as the high hit connects, it will hit.


Advanced tests
Holding DB from BT
Holding DB for 5F will remain in BT
Holding DB for 6F will turn to face opponent

DB~B slides
BT DB for 1F then B for 6F causes hit
BT DB for 1F then B for 7F causes block

BT DB for 5F, B for 6F causes hit
BT DB for 6F, B for 6F causes block
BT DB for 7F then B for 6F causes block
BT DB for 8F then B causes whiff

Pressing f
Press f on F0. Can be hit up to F5. Can block from F6.

Holding DB versus lows
DB F0-10, connects F11 remains OB
DB F0-F11 connects F12 turns to face
DB F0-19, connects F20 hits turns to face
DB F0-F20, connects F21, blocked


DB to turn around
Hold DB for 6F (F0-F5). Can block on F12.
Hold DB for 6F (F0-F5). Will be hit on F11.

b to turn around then low block
BT b on F0, db on F14 will get hit by low on F15
BT B on F0, db on F15 blocked low on F16

Last edited by noodalls on Dec 22nd, 2010 at 11:47

|Galen|
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#306 “Quote” Edit Post
Same result for u~uf~n~B?
Signature In iWS1 I trust!
Battle Jitni- @Galen: (imagine that's a middle finger instead)
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Brahma
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#307 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks noodalls!

On the BT f that's 6f to recover blocking, is that a f~N autoguard or f~b to block?
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noodalls
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#308 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by |Galen|
Same result for u~uf~n~B?


Any reason at all to think this would be quicker?

Originally posted by Brahma
Thanks noodalls!

On the BT f that's 6f to recover blocking, is that a f~N autoguard or f~b to block?


f~N
noodalls
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NoodleHead
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#310 “Quote” Edit Post
Hi Noodalls, it's Noodles again.

1. Can Yoshi block (not evade) opponent's jab after f,f+4 on block by B or tap f method?

2. What's the + frame on u/f+3+4,b+1,"4" on block if "4" is a BT?
(Try sword sweep 2P, u/f+3+4,b+1,4 for 1P, then tech upon u/f+3+4 on hit for 2P. It's a bit tricky)

Thanks.
noodalls
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#311 “Quote” Edit Post
Yoshi's f,F+4 is -4 as per ina tekken and also my visual confirmation. Therefore, anything written about Lili's b+2,1~b should hold.

B and f definitely don't render i10 moves blockable (I used J6's f+2 for the range.)

Lili b+2,1~B -4 on block
Lili b+2,1~B blocks i11 standing 2
Lili b+2,1~B hit by i10 f+2

Lili b+2,1~b f on F57 J6 i10 f+2 hits
Lili b+2,1~b f on F58 J6 i11 standing 2 hits
Lili b+2,1~b f on F57 J6 i12 df+4 blocked
Lili b+2,1~b f,N,B on F57 J6 i11 standing 2 hits
Lili b+2,1~b f,N,B on F57 J6 i12 df+4 blocked


Yoshi's uf+3+4,b+1,4 is +5 from my test.

Sledgehammer doesn't allow double hits. Shit.
NoodleHead
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#312 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
Yoshi's f,F+4 is -4 as per ina tekken and also my visual confirmation. Therefore, anything written about Lili's b+2,1~b should hold.

B and f definitely don't render i10 moves blockable (I used J6's f+2 for the range.)



Yoshi's uf+3+4,b+1,4 is +5 from my test.

Sledgehammer doesn't allow double hits. Shit.


Thanks. Great news for BT "4" indeed.
|Galen|
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#313 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
Any reason at all to think this would be quicker? (being u~u/f~n)



f~N


Cause with Ling you can get different combos to hit if you u~u/f~n to hit when doing b~n is too slow..

Doing something like (this is just an example of how it would would in one case but not the other and I don't even know if this is a good enough example)

d/f+2~1 1,d+2 RDS u~u/f~n 1,d+2,1+2 will hit

d/f+2~1 1,d+2 RDS b~n 1,d+2,1+2 won't hit

Not a great example but it's something like that. Also if you want to turn around after RDS 2~2 spike you can u~u/f~n to turn around without moving backwards from pressing b~n and it's faster than turning around with her RDS d+1+4
Signature In iWS1 I trust!
Battle Jitni- @Galen: (imagine that's a middle finger instead)
Mr. Taxi- "Galen, I don't consider you an Anna player. I have this theory that all Anna players like penis. So until you S a D you aren't an Anna player"
Dilly a couple months after he found out he was expecting- "Galen, Sith, in 9 months I'm challenging you both to diaper matches. Loser buys diapers for the winner. "
NoodleHead
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#314 “Quote” Edit Post
Noodalls, this is Noodles again.

1. can you test the frame for Yoshi's u/f+1 (long range) and u+1 (close range) when opponent's on the ground?

2. can you test the frame for BT d/b+1+2~3_4 on block in the shortest range and the max range?


Thanks.

Last edited by NoodleHead on Mar 4th, 2011 at 02:10

noodalls
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#315 “Quote” Edit Post
Yoshi uf+A
69F total
i28
Opponent F40
10F tech window (= vulnerable until F50, and again from F58 onwards)

u+A
Same

P1 forwardstep
BT BS 3 i29
P2 recovers F58 on hit
P1 recovers F59 (-1 on hit)

P2 Backstep
i30
P2 recoers F58 on block
P1 recovers F59 (-1 on block)

P2 Backdash
BT BS 3 i28
P2 recovers F55 (-4 on block)
NoodleHead
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NoodleHead
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From: USA North Carolina
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#317 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey Nood, here is another one:

u/f~n~1. I'd like to know its frame on B and H. I am assuming that its CH and h frames are the same.

Thanks in advance.
noodalls
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#318 “Quote” Edit Post
Given the PS3 away to a friend, hope to leave it there til about August to get some study done. TTTTTT may be out by then anyway.
JFK[satZ]
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#319 “Quote” Edit Post
Ok, if this has already been posted here then I am sorry. Me and a friend just tested out some throws and how fast they are.

Jack: Tombstone, u/f+1+2, qcf+2, qcb+1, d/b+2+3 and d/f+2+4 (d/f,d/f+2+4 as well perhaps) seems to be i11.

King: TS seems to be i11

Roger Jr: TS and d/b,d/b+1+2 (which is fully bufferable during hit/block stun) seems to be i11

AK: d/b,d/b+1+2 seems to be i11 and it was much much harder to buffer the TS throw from hit/block stun but it seems to be i12.

Raven: UT is i12 and d/f+1+4 is i11

Dragunovs: f+1+4 and f+2+3 is i11 (as we all know), f,f+1+2 is i12

Please feel free to question this if the information seems to be incorrect. That is why I posted this because some of the numbers seemed quite strange. Like Tombstone for King, Jack and Roger Jr. I really did have a much harder time buffering it with AK and his seemed to be i12 as well.

/ JFK

Baek: d/b+1+3 is i12 and f,f+2 seems to be i13 (wtf, might be that you can't buffer the whole throw)
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Ei8hTy SiX
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#320 “Quote” Edit Post
noodalls,
There are many things I would love to ask for you to test. However, many of those things can be tested visually by anyone with a capture device capable of recording @60fps. So I will suppress my temptation and refrain from doing so. If I believe the test does not require the use of a Pstick, I will instead bother someone else. I'm sure there are other generous TZ members who could record certain situations at the request of their fellow Tekken peers. I don't know who those people are (if not myself in the near future), but will soon find one.
In actuality, that bit ^^ was meant for everyone else. If only everyone here would have the same regard. LOL I pity you and the amount of requests that you have been given. I applaud you for the amount of people you have satisfied. Shit, there is more good stuff in this thread than the rest of the forum combined!

When you are bored or are feeling charitable, I would love for you to possibly test yet another something for us (me).


First thing is first. I would like you to clarify a few things about moves consisting of 3 or more inputs AND the total number of frames required to perform them correctly.
Originally posted by noodalls
The input is f,F+1 not f,f+1
If you press f on F1 and release on F2, then press f+1 on F3, it will give f+1.
If you press f on F1, release on F2, press f on F3 and release on F4 and press 1 on F4, you will get standing 1.
If you press f on F1, release on F2, press f on F3, press 1 on F4 and release f+1 on F5, you get f,F+1. e.g. J6's B! move.

So we should assume that f,F+1 moves require a minimum of four frames to input? If so, shouldn't they actually be written as f,n,F+1?
Is it possible to input f on F1, release f on F1, then press and hold another f on F2, press 1 on F3, and release f+1 on F4 or later?
Because the annotation f,F+1 implies just that. This would mean that f,F+1 moves actually require a minimum of only three frames to input!

Anyways, regardless of that answer....
Based on the above quoted information, we can assume that;
The input is f,N+1 not f,n+1
This could also be correctly written as f,n,1
If you press f on F1 and release on F2, and press 1 on F2, you will get standing 1.
If you press f on F1 and release on F2, and press 1 on F3, you will get f,N+1. e.g. Lei's Razor Rush.

So f,N+1 moves actually take three frames to input.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
RECAP:
Should it be f,F+1 or f,n,F+1 or both? I think f,n,F+1.
Should it be f,N+1 or f,n,1 or both? I think both.
The difference in f,n,1 and f,N,1 in my interpretation is n = 1 frame, N = 2 frames (or more).


Second thing I'd like to inquire about is also a suggestion of sorts for you to include in your Frame Data Q&A thread.
Originally posted by noodalls
Q. Why do some moves have variation in their initiation frames?
A. Moves do not necessarily only have one active hit frame and if they do have more than one hit frame they won't necessarily have the same range. If the second or later hit frame connects the recovery for the opponent will occur later and so the relative recoveries will be alligned differently.

When I'm looking at the listed frame data for moves (on InaTekken or other), I see that they have a two different types of examples of moves that have variation in their initiation frames. The first example is written as 16~17. This type is what you were referring to in the Q&A above. These moves have more than one active hit frame, and they normally hit on later frames because of range. The second example is written as 16(17-). This type of initiation data is listed for moves that require multiple frames to input (e.g. f,N+1 and f,F+1). 16(17-) means that the move is i16 from the final input frame, but the fastest possible initiation is actually i17 (including all the necessary input frames).

When I read the listed frame data for "forward,neutral,#" moves on InaTekken, I see that they give two numbers for the speed, e.g. i10(12-). So this is a move that is i10, but actually takes 12 frames (with inputs) to hit the opponent. I have an example:
Lei's 4,1,2 string from DGN stance is i10. When Lei is in his default stance, the same string is performed if you input f,N+4,1,2. This move is i12. The "f,neutral" move requires two additional frames to input the command. This explains why the difference in the two values is 2.

When I read the listed frame data for "forward,neutral,forward,#" moves, I see that they also give two numbers for the speed, e.g. i18(19-). So this is a move that is i18, but actually takes 19 frames (with inputs) to hit the opponent. I have an example: Lei's B! move f,F+2 is 18(19-). That means that f,F+2 is i18 from the moment the 2 was input. Ugh-oh... but wait a second.... If a f,F+2 move requires a minimum four frames to correctly input (as was explained above) from a neutral state (e.g., the start of a round), than the fastest that we can actually get that move to hit is in 21 frames! So why do the two values listed for this move only vary by 1? And why is the second value "19" and not "21"?

I will answer this myself. The reason for this is because "f,forward" moves can be buffered. The first "f,n" part of f,F+2 can be input while your character is still in recovery. Recovery frames can be seen in "Practice Mode" with 'hit analysis' turned on. If you press and release f while still coloured dark, then press and hold F on the first frame you are not coloured, then press 2 on the second frame you are not coloured, and release f+1 on any frame after that, you get the f,F+1 move to occur.
*Please correct me if any of the above is wrong. I am still trying to understand myself how this all works.



Finally, and most importantly (original reason for this post)....
Shouldn't it be possible to buffer the f in "f,neutral" moves such as f,N+4 the same way you can buffer the f,n in "f,forward" moves such as f,F+4?
While playing with Lei for example, I am able to do something that acts like a buffer during the animation of either blocking an attack or performing a move. I can hold F while recovering (still coloured dark), then as soon as Lei becomes active again (first light frame), release f. The result is Lei will begin his "f,n" dash. This is evidence that the f was indeed buffered, correct?
So, if the f can be input during recovery (dark coloured frame), and the n can be input on the first active frame, followed by the 4 input on the second light/active frame, then Lei should perform his f,n,4 move. Because that move was performed in only two active frames instead of the normal three that is thought to be required, then this i10(12-) move would actually hit the opponent in 11 frames. This would, in theory, allow Lei's f,n,4 to be used as an 11 frame punisher when done correctly. This is what I request to be tested. This is also the reason for ALL the above listed information as well.

We know that a "f,n" can be buffered for "f,n,F+#" moves. We know that "f,n" can NOT be buffered for "f,n,#" moves. It appears that the "f" CAN be buffered for "f,n,#" moves. My concern for this not working is if the 'neutral' does not register on the first light frame. In otherwords, if the "buffered" f is required to be held during the first light frame, followed by the release of the f on the second light frame, then input 4 on the third light frame.

I'm sorry if any of this is too confusing to follow. I'm confused myself and yet I'm trying to explain. <---- Never a good scenario.

If nothing else, I suggest that you edit your Frame Data Q&A to include the second example of why moves (i.e. f,F+1 and f,n,1) have variation in their initiation frames. Otherwise, just explain the difference between i16(17-) and i16~17. And possibly adding a bit about how buffering relates to initiation frames.

Damn, If only I had a Pstick!
I would attain so much knowledge!
Knowledge is Power!
Hell, together we can rule the world !!!!

Last edited by Ei8hTy SiX on Oct 8th, 2011 at 07:41

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