Let's Talk Tekken 8 (Hopes, Dreams, Expectations)

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Welsh Steel
Legend
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 541
From: Wales
PSN: Welsh__Steel
#81 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Haseeb_Zaibatsu
Lucky Chloe is literally the worst Tekken character ever alongside Katarina. Both characters have ugly design, ugly voice,annoying moveset and cringy personality. I'd never want these characters to return, and it's highly unlikely that Chloe would ever make it to next Tekken imo, Katarina might make it though, she ain't that unpopular.
Also I don't think Eliza will make it, due to 2D character hate.
Rest of the newcomers aren't half as bad, Claudio and Shaheen have really good design and are pretty basic, good for beginners too.
I'd love to see Gigas return too, I think they wasted a good opportunity to make him a really good character. There's so much wrong going on with him. First of all, why doesn't he have some personality? I'd love to see him crack a few dialogues and get related to story in some way, maybe give him a mecha face, something that makes him feel like he's a badass product of some scientific experiment, and let him speak through some computerized stuff. Like doctor Willow from DBZ.


I don't know where to begin with you, Lars avatar! xD

Tekken's roots is in relatable martial arts, protrayed to extreme levels, the main cast does this pretty damn well, then since Tekken 6 we've seen additional characters shift away from that, such as Lars, Alisa and possibly Bob (The fat man is using martial arts, it just looks ridiculous).
I'm not agreeing with this approach, T7 added even more "crazy sh1t" with Gigas, Claudio and Eliza but I really don't feel Tekken needs to pander to the audience that wants "something flashy that 2d fighters usually give", to me it ruins the core of Tekken when someone like Claudio or Lars instantly bring their foot/hand to an opponent and they are instantly floor/launched, it's away from Tekken's "Theme".

My opinion is the polar opposite of yours xD
Lars : WTF is goku doing here, actually that's offensive to Goku is hair is way better, weird fuk fighting style, who enjoys fighting Lars? I feel like I need some Coke to track that stupid "Flash" move speed! It's not Tekken! Harada from the looks of it can't balance that crazy sh1t for competitive play, remove him, lets remove the headache!
Alisa : Fine, she feels good to play, her moves look good, sometimes it's a bit bizzare but I feel there is worse in Tekken. Alisa is part of the Story, untouchable xD Would like to see Alisa changed for competitive play, she relies far too much on low poking and side stepping, most of her moves you don't even see!
Bob : Stupid, get rid, seriously....pipe down muricans, slim and trim = win!
Gigas : His range pisses me off! fuk, it's a huge monster...I play Tekken, I wish to duel with Martial Artists, I'd play Injustice or whatever if I wanted to play against the Juggernaut, fuuuk! Headache character, barely anyone plays him, you don't want to spend time learning to fight him, Koreans lost to him in a Team deathmatch because they don't care, fuk this character!
Shaheen : This character is so dry, his story is so basic, when you watch Shaheen competitively it's so boring, such a straight forward character, waste of time if you ask me, unless the muslim community demands him, get rid!
Claudio : yes good for beginner's, short movelist, cheap....CHEAP, his moveset belongs in a 2d fighter, I appreciate Harada bringing in more powers besides the Mishima bloodline but fuk, give this guy a martial art, most players can just rely on his hopkick and a handful of other moves, learn the juggles and you are done! Force Claudio to have a moveset, make players engage with Tekken, not cheapening the game with HOPKICK!
Lucky Chloe : HOW DARE YOU!
This is my 2nd main, I love this girl, customize her out of that ridiculous suit, what a piece...ANYWAY, what a beautiful character, unique martial art (breakdancing...finger punching). Fun to play, not breaking the game with her moveset (just the juggle damage). She's the CHEER LEADER of Tekken, she brings joy, happiness, Calfornia Roll....again...x4, get the glowsticks! it's a party!

....Rant over, dude, get your 2d opinion away from me! This is TEKKEN!
grumpy64
War Lord
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 718
From: United States
#82 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by wrazor
I think toned down 3d movement makes this game a spectator favourite right now. So i dont agree with you on that.
In tekken 8, please give newcomers the following options to turn on/off when starting their singleplayer games and unranked lobbies:
(1)Only 2d mode
(2)Assist mode(easy controls mode)
(3)No okizeme
(4)No rage
(5)No juggling

Before you kill me, understand that we are legacy players of 3d fighters. It is too much for FGC players to digest. Let them have tekken their own way. So they can gradually come into our fold.

Exactly how would that work online? Besides if someone needs that that much coddling I can almost guarantee they have no interest in ever being part the fold. I don't get why the video game community thinks we need to constantly dumb things down for casuals I'm a casual but frankly I find that mindset confussing. If you dumb the game down all you do is piss off legacy players and appease fly by nighters that will be gone as soon as the next game comes out. To clarify when i say next game i mean the next popular game. To cut to the point people that are to lazy or disinterested to put in work to get good are not gonna stick around long

Last edited by grumpy64 on May 6th, 2019 at 13:00

SSfox
Foxstepman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3205
#83 “Quote” Edit Post
I would love everything new for t8, voices and animations and of course defaults for every single character of the roster, I'll take this this even if it means 24 characters at launch instead of 40, like absolutely. I want T8 to feel absolutely and totally fresh.
Fernandito
Sweet Spanish Macho
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2356
From: Spain
XBL: Steam:FerDeSantander
#84 “Quote” Edit Post
lol people do really really have trouble vs Gigas
Signature Long Live the King of Iron Fist, Heihachi Mishima.

Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3698
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#85 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Abigan2K

Stop downplaying Lee, he's a beast in this version

d+3 ch launcher can be done consistently enough



Again, my issue right now isn't with his tier, but how his strengths have changed (improved or diminished) so much relative to the rest of the cast.

Better:
- punishing
- poking (especially safer lows)

Worse:
- okizeme (non-existent under the new wake-up system and there always being a correct way to wake with no mix-up. The only way people get hit by stuff now is if they don't understand the situation or they're too lazy to watch and wake right.)
- carry distance (particularly compared to the rest of the cast, compared to before)
- juggle damage

I didn't need him to have exactly the same moveset, but I would have liked him to retain his strengths, even if it meant retaining his old weaknesses (crap lows, some punish/punish range issues). To me, it was part of his character identity, or player identity with the character, and it's gone now. Again, what would it be like to play Ryu with no tatsu, shoryuken, or hadoken, even if he were strong in non-traditional ways? Same issue--identity loss.

Originally posted by DinoTheDonDaDa
"The thing with Lee's juggles... he still gets 65-80 damage like every other character..."

And this is exactly my point. His identity was not juggling like others. To offset his weaknesses, it was to be head over heels better than others in this department (and also in part reward for being more execution-intense). Why homogenize? Sure, it's easier to balance if characters are similar to each other, but it's also lazy.

Last edited by Murakumo on May 7th, 2019 at 04:05

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Fernandito
Sweet Spanish Macho
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2356
From: Spain
XBL: Steam:FerDeSantander
#86 “Quote” Edit Post
How about thinking on playing the character you like because you like him instead of thinking all the times of it as some sort of mathematical thingy about frames. You can't enjoy art as long as you break it down like a maths exam.

Do you remember when you used to liking games?

Juggles juggles pokes pokes damage___ frames frames frames_ punish this one yes this one not this other is -10 +12 wall carry yes wall carry don't this -13 thing this other.. Jesus Christ freaks, fucking enjoy the art of playing by heart. It is tekken, the game you began playing because you loved either Kazuya's Heihachi's style or whoever was your favourite character by the time you joined. And because of the music; its setting and atmosphere, etc. Do you remember that too?
Signature Long Live the King of Iron Fist, Heihachi Mishima.

SSfox
Foxstepman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3205
#87 “Quote” Edit Post
Harada spoke one time about a character based on USA Military fighting style but didn't make it because it would take a long time to make him or something, wonder if he'll make it to Tekken 8, design wise can't help but i'm imagining him with some kind of Jack Bauer vibe.
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3698
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#88 “Quote” Edit Post
As for playing a character due to their style? I've never really done that. I've always played characters because they're interesting to dissect and operate in an interesting manner within the system, usually when they can do crazy stuff that other characters can't when pushed to the limit with good execution. I like to test the system and push the mechanics--I feel I have always understood the systems pretty well because I immediately start prodding at it for how it works and what can be done within it. I always play characters that are interesting to play rather than how they look--same reason I was known for Dhalsim in Marvel 2. I picked him because he had interesting tools and mechanics and was convinced he could compete with top tier as long as you had excellent execution. I explored, I dissected what he could do within the game mechanics (along with Magnetro2k), and then I used him pretty effectively in tournaments and did all kinds of cool stuff with him.

Same thing with Lee. I started playing Lee in T4 because he became more mechanically interesting with his just frames, mist step cancels (which recovered REALLY fast and allowed sidesteps for combo angling back then), and side-wall extensions, etc. (TTT1 was Jin/Baek main because that team was mechanically interesting). I play characters for what they can do, but not necessarily by tier. What is frustrating to me is that the mechanics of the system and thus my character (and many characters, for that matter) became more simplified in T7. There's less depth. It's less mechanically interesting. Removing oki was great for those who ignored oki before. It was a sad day for those of us who invested time and consideration in how to maximize its possibilities before.

On saying you can't appreciate art from a mathematical approach, it makes me think of Richard Feynman and his artist friends who said he couldn't appreciate a flower as much because he was too analytical. He countered that he could still appreciate its aesthetic beauty, but by understanding the biology, the cellular structure, the math and patterns it was connected to, it only added to its beauty. That's how I see Tekken. I want to see/do hard-as-hell combos and set-ups that maximize damage, pushing the system to its limits. That is beauty. High skill/execution cap, and appropriate rewards for that difficulty.

I just wish the system had become deeper instead of more limited. I feel like it went in the wrong direction there, and in several other ways as a bid to lower barrier to entry and create artificial hype for new players (with stuff like rage arts, rage drive, assisted, artificial comebacks). No amount of graphics can replace good gameplay (FWIW, I think this is something that plagues a lot of games these days, and not just fighters).

So that's my wish for T7. Differentiate characters more so they can each have individual and clear strengths and weaknesses that differentiate them mechanically and play much differently than each other. And make the system deeper. New players shouldn't have to expect to be great quickly--they can compete with other new players. Let the system depth expand the total range of player levels, not compress it. To see people with particular styles and really unleash their character, playing them to their greatest potential is beautiful. Let that potential go deeper and further.

When you simplify the system and compress the band of skill levels, especially when homogenizing the characters, the game loses flavor. Players lose the ability to play characters that are as mechanically unique, and I would argue that it also takes away from players being able to play in their unique styles (there are many approaches to Lee and you can often tell a player by their approach).

Without that, it's like BR Bruce. He was buff, but THE WAY to play him was so straight-forward and uninspired, without a lot of mechanical wiggle room, that it was really hard to differentiate good players by their play style--they all looked the same. Sadness. T_T
Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
Fernandito
Sweet Spanish Macho
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2356
From: Spain
XBL: Steam:FerDeSantander
#89 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't think there's any beauty in executing like a robot, let alone doing the same juggles your opponent can't fight over and over again. Where's the beauty in that, or in a wall carry?, there's beauty in mind games, and in using a character you feel connected to for whatever the reason, but never mathematics or certain frame advantages. If you think on that only then rather than a pure player that enjoys this game you're more of a tournament individual, who seeks only the fastest and cheapest ways to win because there's obviously money on the table, and you're not there to mess around with sportsman crafshit or unusual stuff exhibition.

Originally posted by SSfox
Harada spoke one time about a character based on USA Military fighting style
We already had one since tekken 3, and was called Bryan. Bryan style is the clasic modified kickboxing, brutalized kickboxing, that the USA soldiers have been using since mid seventies. You see Bryan's taunt?, man that is a classic in the USA military, as well as its fighting stance, and the way he uses his knees and those killer parabolic kicks = 100% USA military style. Everything about Bryan comes from there.

You have also Guile from SF, but its depiction of the style was pure shit and far from realistic compared to Bryan's, at least when I played sf2, don't know now.

The one that is very unrealistic regarding military styles is that of Dragunov. Most of his moves are all made up but his grabs which make for the only realistic stuff in his repertory, because in the end Sambo is in a way some kind of brutalized Judo, that the russian soldiers use when disarmed.

Maybe he was talking about adding some female usa military soldier with a similar style to that of Bryan or maybe even Guile, to satisfy the growing effeminate cancer that will sure strike even harder by tekken8, taking into account what we've see in t7 in that department, with Josie as the most obnoxious vomitive example above all.

Last edited by Fernandito on May 8th, 2019 at 12:52

Signature Long Live the King of Iron Fist, Heihachi Mishima.

dodecadozen
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1621
#90 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Fernandito
I don't think there's any beauty in executing like a robot, let alone doing the same juggles your opponent can't fight over and over again. Where's the beauty in that, or in a wall carry?, there's beauty in mind games, and in using a character you feel connected to for whatever the reason, but never mathematics or certain frame advantages. If you think on that only then rather than a pure player that enjoys this game you're more of a tournament individual, who seeks only the fastest and cheapest ways to win because there's obviously money on the table, and you're not there to mess around with sportsman crafshit or unusual stuff exhibition.


This is an interesting conversation.

I can relate to Murakumo's POV also because, as I understand it, all he is looking for is mechanical depth i.e. the different and interesting ways you can interact with the game... or with your opponent... and not necessarily in the form of juggles and shit. That's a creative way of enjoying the game. Without guys like these, stuff like bryan's taunt cancel game or even backdash cancelling would probably not have come to be widely known.
Signature Bring back [kunimitsu] for T7!
Murakumo
1,2,4:4 all day long
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 3698
From: Japan
PSN: TZMurakumo
#91 “Quote” Edit Post
I acknowledge that there are people who like the yomi aspect and mind-games better. Some people like being great punishers. I don't disike yomi, but I do dislike if that's what the game becomes specifically, at the exclusion or loss of other aspects. I like being able to find and apply rarefied and esoteric knowledge that requires execution. Because of its rarity and difficulty, especially in match or competitive play, I find it beautiful.

Beautiful execution can also be in movement, not just combos. It can be a perfect sidestep and ducked quick strings to punish. It's nice to see the knowledge and know-how coupled with reaction, and then beautiful to see it actually executed in competitive play.

I do understand how and that some players are more interested in yomi/mindgames. Some, as you said, are only interested in the win and will tier whore (T4 Jin and Steve, T5.0 Steve and Nina, T6.0 Bob, etc...). That's what's fun to them, and that's okay. Pushing the limits of the mechanics--both the overarching game and my character, of my execution, and producing something rare in match is what's fun for me. I feel if I, personally, wanted only yomi with no reaction or execution component, then the game to play would be rock/paper/scissors... I'd probably rename it sidestep/demoman/deathfist, though. =P

I actually see this (different appreciation for what is fun and how to play) within my character, which is part of why I talked about there being enough to a character to differentiate players' styles. At the Lee-off out here last year, you could see some Lees are very technically sound, some are really safe, some play mostly on reads and CH game, some pressure with movement and what they *might* do, keeping opponents on the defensive; after launch some go for easy juggle damage, some for full/difficult damage and carry, and others for setups. It all depends on what a player finds fun and decides to focus on. When a character is mechanically deep enough, there are more ways to approach playing them and things become more varied and interesting.

For those who want more yomi, tough, I would assume they would lament the loss of oki, too. Oki was essentially yomi against opponent wake-up. Now, there is no little to no need, depending on situation, to guess to wake up safely, as long as you know the correct option. With Lee in particular, to apply it well, it included elements of all three areas: yomi, reaction, and execution. That combination was beautiful. This loss saddens me and I wish the old mechanics would return. I get that those mechanics could be discouraging for new players who don't understand it, but hey, that's why Namco should [finally] add tutorials. Make the system deep instead of shallow, then give players tools to learn and develop in different areas, according to whichever options they want to explore as a player.
=[

Last edited by Murakumo on May 8th, 2019 at 19:43

Signature Hit confirms and just frames in a mist trap sandwich!
lightbeast
Legend
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 505
avensis
Banned By Mod
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 16
#93 “Quote” Edit Post
I love the photo, I think we'll all be like that xD

TweakBox Tutuapp

Last edited by avensis on May 28th, 2019 at 13:19

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