Capo Flowcharts (post yours here)

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CaCarmen
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#21 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey, so I actually ended up getting very busy and getting very distracted from Tekken for a few days... sigh. But at least I'm back now. Here are my additions and comments on the first part of your post:

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Standing Punishers (awful):
+10: 1,2 or 1,2,4 mix ups
+12: f2,1
+14: b1 or df2
+16: df3+4
+19: qcf3
+23 and up: f4,3+4; ff4


Some additional notes:

Christie's 1,2 is pretty bad. On hit your opponent gets left very far away from you, so followups can be risky, as most things can be backstepped. 4, df+2 and df+3 can catch backstep. df+4 can catch backstep and single sidesteps, but can be sidewalked. db+2 is similar but catches swr. d+3~4 seems the best low since it tracks both ways and surpringly can reach backstep. All of these lows have problems. Even forward throws are backsteppable...

Single jab is a very strong tool that I like throwing out as a punish now and then. Jab into rodeo can catch people off guard. Jab into d+4 actually beats out normal hopkicks like Lili's uf+3 (being able to hit hopkicking opponents with a throw or low during thier hopkick startup can really throw people off). 1 into f+1+2 HSP duck starts up fast enough to beat retaliation. 1 into ss+3+4 (short sidestep) is uninterruptable and safe, so that's great. Pretty much most mids can be used as options. People seems much less willing to retaliate when dealing with a single jab punish rather than a 1,2 punish (part of this is due to the amount of frame advantage and how fast it is react to a single move as opposed to a two-part move)

1+2 can punish certain moves... it seems to vary by characters. Bob's hopkick is one of the ones of the top of my head. I haven't bothered incorporating it much but if you can find which characters it seems more consistant on, it can be useful to apply.

f+2,1 is very good, I need to use it more.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
FC punishers:
+11: ws4 (worst ws4 in the game. No KND, low damage, awful tracking, no float skills, nothing good about it)
+13: ws1,3 (-14 on block and leaves you in RLX so any move up to i14 will float you and moves up to 28 frames will hit you. Also, it's a high, so beware of it. Still, at i13 and the long range makes it one of the best moves in the game )
+15: ws2 (used to punish RC moves, cause ws1,3 won't hit them. Doesnít work on the wall and long pushback moves)
+19: ws3 (used to punish RC moves, cause ws1,3 won't hit them and it's better than ws2. It punishes all the low staggering moves such as Law and Baek db4)


ws+4 is actually not bad. On block its great to set up stuff like Rodeo throw when the opponent runs in. But as a punish, there's some options after it hits. ss+3 is a good thing to do when opponents try to backdash. f+3+4 catches backstep, but is linear (seems to catch single ssl though). In addition to backdash you can also do stuff like 4~3 and backflip.

I think ws+2 is i14... I'm not sure though.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Punishing other capos:
Note: sometimes it is worth to trade something guaranteed for an uncertain, but more valuable option. For example, trading a +12 f2,1 (28 dmg, +2 on hit) for a rodeo spin is a good option sometimes, and trading a ws4 for a FCdf4 at the wall may bring even better results. Changing some guaranteed okis for a better positioning at the wall is another god example.


Strongly agree.

Situations where nothing is guaranteed:

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Around from +9 to +5 frame advantage:
15%- Grabs (especially Cristie's grabs and rodeos, don't let them keep using -9 stuff and get away with it. Lars uf4? Grab him. Jin b2,1? Grab him)
15%- df2 (tracks everything in this frame range, hits people who duck, launches people who attack, nice mix with grabs and lows)
15%- d3~4 (tracks a lot, highs crushes, 20 dmg, +3 on hit, -13 on block)
15%- ss3+4 (when you ssr, it tracks to your left and vice versa, but it's unlikely you will get punished and it's a mid launcher)
15%- uf3 mix ups (after using a lot of df2's and d3~4's, they won't even try to ss, so you can use a very good mix up like this)
15%- back dash (and brace for a whiff such as a hopkick after a ss4)
5%- ss4 (also tracks both sides, not so much dmg, they may block the second hit so no frame advantage, but if they donít, you get a good mix up)
5%- raw rlx (when you need a lot of dmg, you don't want half measures, high risk high reward)


I would add db+3 strings, f+4, b+3+4, f+1+2 into HSP when you have enough frame advantage that opponents don't want to move.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Around +4 frames til -2 frames:
Around -2 to -9:
50%- backdash (best backdash in the roster, use it more often than anything else and be patient)
20%- random ducks (terrible standing punishers and awesome FC punishers make random ducks a terrific option. It's always a big risk, but punishing jab whiffs and -13 lows such as bob/jin db4 is a game changer)
10%- jabs / FC jabs (they can turn the frames to your side, it's kinda risky tho)
10%- b2 and other evading moves like db3+4 or db1+2 (watch for how they pressure you and react accordingly)
5%- d4_d4,3 (very fast, high crushes, NCC, good damage on the two hits, but very risky)
5%- b1,4 (though it's unlikely you will interrupt them, the huge dmg pays off when it happens)


db+3+4 and db+1+2 are pretty much identical in how they whiff from what I've seen. I do agree with jabbing especially at -1 or -2 when you can legitimately interrupt opponents mid and at -3 to -4 to beat hopkicks.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Okis on the open:
- qcf3 to get some dmg and fish a reset from get up kicks, standing up and backroll)
- uf4 (for low crush)
- d4 or d3~4 (to get some dmg)
- b3+4 (for big dmg)
- b3,3 (bait a get up kick)
- ss3d (for far away okis, you may use this to get into rlx exactly while they are getting up and try a reset)
- f3+4 (needs some testing)
- u3 (huge dmg, good option for df2, it beats everything but backroll and standing up)


I would do d+3 over d+4 as its as fast but a little more damaging.

f+3+4 actually tracks tech rolls to the right and face down tech rolls (both ways), on block its safe and hit you get a launcher. But its very setup specific. CH f+2,1,4 (opponent techs right) f+3+4 is one example. Two throw, qcf+3, f+3+4 is another one.

qcf+3 actually misses sideroll (in one direction) if you do it too early.

A lot of the oki stuff is VERY specific to what knockdown or juggle you are doing it off.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Oki at the wall:
- raw rlx (they have to deal with rlx 3 , rlx 4~3, rlx 1,3, rlx 4 (CH w!), rlx 3~4 (mid launcher that hits grounded), rlx 1+2,1+2 (w! mid)
- d2,3 (mid mid, NCC, safe on block, +14 on hit, amazing oki at the wall)
- u4,3 or 1,2,4,3 (low crush, huge dmg, positive on block, leaves you in rlx, but loses to side roll and tech roll)
- uf4 (safe mid w! with low crush and good range)
- ss2,4 (delayable string, mid high NC, w!, leaves you in HSP at -8 on block, so you may try HSP 4, HSP d3+4 to evade highs and mids and w!, or HSP 3+4 to not get floated and try a grab at the same time)
- ss1+4 (unsable low, big dmg, mix up with ss2,4
- 3~4, 3+4 (launches if they get up too soon, may float and get a bound if they get up late, hits them if they donít move for petty dmg, may launch if they raw tag
- b3,3 (good dmg on ground, very very fast mid, may launch them and even allows you to tag out)
- b3+4 (if they don't move)


db+3,4 is of course good at the wall. 3~4,3+4 is interesting and something I never thought about.

ss+3_HSP 3 does W! and can B! with 3+4~3... just remember to use tag buffer!

ff+3~b has amazing pushback at the wall and can be a setup for HSP4 and stuff. df+3 can be used similarly maybe. So does df+2 (great pushback), which on hit leads to a lot of guaranteed combos at the wall (even if it doesn't W! itself)

4 is a good pressure mid to build up space for a uf+4 or ws+4 wall splat. Most other mids, including df+1, don't pushback so pressure options are pretty limited. ws+4 is good as well actually.

Obviously b+3+4 is excellent, agree very much on your inclusion there.

u+3+4 (which can also W!) is only -2 or something on block (it seems to vary on angle, sometimes it looks like even frames) so it can be quite good... u+3+4 into jab to beat out retalitation mids, u+3+4 into FC 1+2,1+2 to beat highs, etc.

Originally posted by LuizWsp
Turtling:
- uf4 (excellent for spacing out, watch out for characters and opponent with good whiff punishment tho)
- raw rlx (bait them with highs and mids that miss rlx)
- df2 (you may get a launcher)
- 4 (good range, very fast (i12))
- ss4 (very good range and it's somewhat evasive, hard to whiff punish)
- ss3+4 (very evading, so it's hard to whiff punish it, good mix up with ss4)


I like db+2 as a range low, backflip is actually quite evasive.

Flowchart stuff and RLX stuff in the next post... (maybe tomorrow?)

Last edited by CaCarmen on Aug 27th, 2014 at 17:38

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ENHEAS
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
Ws 2 is 15 frames mate
Fergus
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Wow this thread was a sick read, good job guys.
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LuizWsp
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#24 “Quote” Edit Post
I hate f2,1 as a punisher. Most of the roster have excelent i12 punishers, and even some i10 punishers are hundres of times better than this. It's only +2 on hit and 3 points of dmg over 1,2, so I hardly use it.

The reason I dislike ws4 is that it's too easy to whiff it. A simple ss either way will make it whiff, and even when I duck some highs it whiffs for no reason at all (like Nina d4,1 and some Jun stuff I cant remember). The hitbox is awful.

ws2 is definetly i15.

1+2 sometimes is so tricky, the second hit may be blocked even after the first one is a hit, it's weird so I dont rely on it.

I'm finding uf3+4 at the wall to be very very good. The dmg is sick, it's pretty fast (i17), the range is very good. It's a good mix up and raw tag catch at the wall. Also may be used as low crush or a simple mix up with any low.

Using raw HSP with f1+2 is great, thanks for the tip.
CaCarmen
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Yeah sorry about ws+2. I never really paid att'n to its frames, I just memorized which punishes its good for and throw it out when mixing with a low (like HSP2, ws+2 or duck jab, ws+2)

Hmm, I'd have to check but I think something like duck jab (hit) ws+4 will track at least one direction single sidestep (I'll check tomorrow). I use it as a mixup for lows out of fc (similar to ws+2) and as a mid range poke, I feel it has good lateral range and aside from standing 4, may be Xtie's fast quick recovery mid. I love how it sets up good spacing options on block, particularly. However when ducking Nina's d+4,1 and Jun's heron kicks (is that what you're referring to) I always choose to duck jab because of the frame advantage (duck jab fc d+4 is a pretty solid custom string that even beats hopkicks!)

uf+3+4 is something I started using to catch tag ins. Its good but as a low crush what I found out is it crushes a few frames slower than uf+4 and even slower than u+3+4. Also, even though no one is going to ever punish it probably, they will most definetely jab you so thats something that keeps me from using it.

Have you tried using 3+4? There's a few BR matches of Misty using it and crushing mids, its pretty crazy.
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LuizWsp
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#26 “Quote” Edit Post
3+4 has a little sway back before the move starts, similar to rlx f3+4.
CaCarmen
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
For sure it does, I'm just wondering if you've found any good places to use it, as it is kind of slow. I've personally found it works very well after Christie's throw breaks or after Rodeo is broken... it can be mixed up with the feint after people get used to seeing it to score a free HSP hit. Other than that the only other place I've found it works is at the beginning of a match. Hmm, maybe certain moves with pushback and good frames (like maybe u+3+4?) could be used to set it up? Just an idea.
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
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"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
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LuizWsp
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
I rarely use it, occasions I remember I used it were as a mix at the wall, opponent lying down and always from RLX, but that was just me experimenting. I never really found a purpose for it, since other moves are better and faster.
Ayos Mishima
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#29 “Quote” Edit Post
3+4 can be used against Dragunov's running 2 move on reaction.
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CaCarmen
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#30 “Quote” Edit Post
Now, THAT's a good find! Mad props!
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
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LuizWsp
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#31 “Quote” Edit Post
You're better off with b2 and/or db1+2 though...

Works great against Jin's df1,4~4, since db1+2 doesnt work here, but 3+4 works all the time (b2 works if you time it well).
yoloswag
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#32 “Quote” Edit Post
Imo with eddy its not that important to play with frames unless ur opp doesent respect them. if he dont, do b14.

Flowchart is not that important... just know ur moves potential. So its the same thing? when i play, i dont really think bout flowchart.. dunno just my preferance.

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