Sumotori Scrolls: TTT2 Ganryu guide

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Budding Fighter
^ Thanks AZYG4LYFE!
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1606
From: New Zealand
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey guys! I was originally thinking of making this a video guide, but things didn't go too well with trying to record video for the guide, and I gave up. I'll basically post up the transcript of the guide here for people to read and comment on.
This is intended for all Ganryu players - whether you're new to TTT2 and/or Ganryu or a veteran, there's something in here for everyone (or so I hope), from movelist breakdowns and frame data knowledge, to full blown oki setups and strats.
It's still a work in progress, and probably always will be.

Dedicated to KOR who dropped Ganryu in T6. Come back to Ganryu pls.
Also dedicated to my Grandma who passed away during the conceptualisation of the guide. I miss you.

- Find full frame data HERE. (thanks to MadCow from rbnorway for the frame data)
- This guide makes use of the Western notation system. Find it HERE.
- Might want to check out the Sumo Compilation thread with basic info such as NC's, NCc's etc HERE.
- Before we move along, here's my take on ranges:
Picture (It's a picture describing how I talk about ranges in this guide. Forgive the terrible graphics)

TABLE OF CONTENTS
1) Overview (right below this)
2) Movelist breakdown part one; part two
3) Throws and throw oki
4) Punishers
5) Okizeme
6) General strategy
7) Peeling the onion
8) Wall game
9) Combos

1) Overview
Ganryu (I'll refer to him as Sumo from now on) is a very strong character in TTT2. He has many strengths and can do good, safe, chunky poke damage, and has good combo damage to boot.
Pros:
- He has one of the best sets of lows in the game with df+3, Thunder Palm, FC d+1 and d+4
- He has awesome chunky mids with df+1, iWS 1, df+2, f+2, ff+3 etc
- He has awesome ways to maintain his pressure and + frames with d+1+2 and 1.
- He is easy execution wist. There are things that are tough but they are not necessary for competitive play.
- He has one of the best i10 CH tools in the game with b+1+2, f+3+4 comboing for 57 damage.
- He has i14 launchers from both standing and crouching. If you can execute his i14 standing launcher and remember to punish with his i14 crouching launcher, it can make some moves really hurt on block against them.
- He can be great at either position in a team.
- He wants to get a relationship with a girl at least one third his age; gotta respect his drive.

Cons:
- His faster punishers (b+1+2 and 1,2) lack range; he is actually unable to punish FUFT get up 4 mid kicks pretty much at all.
- His own get up 3 CH combo is unreliable.
- His movement is a little below average.
- He struggles against characters with keepout and has to take risks to overcome that sometimes.
- His crush game is risky for the reward it has.

Those weaknesses are significant enough, however, to make him top 20 and not top 10. He is still a very strong and well rounded (haha) character that is simple and easy to grasp. I would not recommend because of his unorthodox style.

Changes/additions from Tekken 6: Bloodline Rebellion
Check this all out HERE

Last edited by Budding Fighter on May 20th, 2014 at 08:21

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Budding Fighter
^ Thanks AZYG4LYFE!
Joined: Jul 2012
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From: New Zealand
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
2) Moveset analysis

Sumo has a very unorthodox, yet a complete movelist. I will go over every single move in his movelist here, including throws but not the GH grab moves as they are mash escapable.

- 1: One of the main things that differentiate Sumo from the rest of the cast. His 1 has 12 frames of start up - slowest primary jab in the game. To compensate for this, and the general principle of blocked jab into another jab is uninterruptable, Namco made it +3 on block. The frames, coupled with the distance (more like lack of thereof) between Sumo and his opponent on block or hit make this a great move and some Sumo players base their whole game around this. It is also +11 on CK which means that if you are fast enough, you can combo a b+1+2 off of it - a scary tool for wall pressure if you are able to implement it.

- 1,2: His standard esque set of jabs. Only slightly negative on block and good advantage on hit, but the pushback on hit makes it so that they can backdash from another set of jabs and moves with similar range. One thing people who pick up Sumo and have come from other characters do is that their will sometimes blindly 1,2 moves which are -10 on block because they are used to characters with i10 jabs and Sumo doesn't have i10 jabs, and thus his punish gets blocked or ducked. Just keep that in mind.

- 2,1: It's one of those moves you can try if you have the opponent really scared and you want to have some fun. 2,1 also has practical application as a punisher because of the + frames on hit and the positioning (you're right on top of them). However it does not jail on block. People who have knowledge of this will blow you up for it. If it hits or is blocked and they don't duck the second hit, the third hit (2,1,2) will interrupt everything, however that hit is punishable.

- 2,4: Jab into low kick. Hard to differentiate from just 2, because Sumo looks like he's almost done before the low kick.

- 3: Generic 3. Has no real application because sumo has better and faster moves with the same application - a safe wallsplat to punish whiffs. 3,4 series is useless in the open because there is too much risk for no reward. 3,4,4 is his main wall TA so you want to keep that in mind.

- 4,4: Another one of those semi-usable moves. 4 by itself doesn't have much use because it doesn't launch on CH unlike most characters, however, 4,4 is a hit confirmable knockdown usable in the open field. Sumo has better moves than 4,4 though. Interesting is the situation after 4,4 on block as most WS 4's will miss trying to punish it.

- 1+2: Ah, a goodie. 1+2 is one of his many good ground hitting tools. It is a little slow, but it is usable to hit grounded opponents nonetheless as it launches on CH. So if you want to hit them as they lay there and catch any get up kicks just in case, then use it. It is punishable, but Sumo has the 1+2,1+2 extension to stop all punishes. Yoshi 1SS flash trades with the second hit undelayed.

- 1+2, b+1+2: 1+2 into unblockable. After a 1+2 spike in combos you can do this to freeze them as they get up. More info on when I get to the unblockable. If Yoshi does 1SS Flash as a reaction after 1+2, you can 1+2, b+1+2, 2 to punish them.

- 3+4: Sit stance. It isn't the best stance in the world, but still pretty usable. You see when he sits down there's the butt falling sound? Yes, this move is actually low crushing at that time. It is also high crushing a little bit into the animation till the whole. This makes it a good move to cancel raw tags with. Or it would be, if mids didn't float it out. But you need a low hitting mid, because when he has sat down he will go under high hitting mids. Now let's see the options in it.

- SIT 1: It's a slow mid, ladies and gentlemen. Not a whole lot more than that. It's absurdly slow, which means it's not a mixup, especially since the low options are much faster. It is safe on block with pushback, but can be sidewalked left. It wall splats on hit. On CH it is similar to Baek CH FLA f+3 in the sense that you get a combo in the open, but at the wall, it gives a free headbutt which will wall splat for tons of wall damage.

- SIT 2: It's a... sweep. Launches only on clean hit, hella launch punishable on block. On CH it will launch either way. It's main use is to punish stuff after crushing it.

- SIT 1+2: Yes this move has a hitbox at the front. If you dash into him enough you get hit. This move is also accessible from just back turned. The main use of this move, aside from trolling, is when uf+3+4 crosses up on grounded opponents, this is guaranteed. It's not truly guaranteed because they can tag crash to get out of it, but they cannot avoid it otherwise.

- SIT 3+4: This move has a massive amount of active frames. Also the fact that this move leaves you grounded on hit and block make it so that on block you can tag crash to get out and on hit you can raw tag. Also on block you can't be punished severely because you end up grounded.

- SIT d: As if SIT's ability to crush wasn't good enough. You can basically think of this as grounded position really. No moves out of this but you do have some options. Referred after this as Splits

- Splits f: He does a little dance. Past a certain point he will block highs and mids and parry high and mid punches. However he doesn't block low in the entirely of the dance. Also, the time where he is not blocking is pretty long, so long that it's possible for people to see this and hopkick on reaction. Goes into CH ff+2 grab if you hit 1+2 after it.

- Splits d or u: A glorified sidestep. You can't cancel it to whiff punish if you get a whiff off of it, or block if you want to. Not exceptionally useful.

- f+2: Ducking palm. High crushes. On hit it pushes back and you have some advantage on hit but not enough to matter. On block it has awesome pushback to the point that pretty much no one can punish it at far range. It is a solid keep out tool, and tracks against SSL at + frames.

- f+2~1: Good situational move. + on block, and free jabs or headbutt on hit. This move has no tracking whatsoever. An advanced strategy you can try with this move is, if they're frozen, throw out f+2, and cancel into f+2~1 if they're not ducking. f+2 has a lot of cancelable frames.

- f+3: Other moves do its job better. This is pretty much worthless.

- f+1+2: Sumo's main 14 frame punisher. Has massive range. It is similar to Bryan mach punch in the sense of the followups on it - they can tag roll off of it pretty much for free in the open. But it does do 40 damage and can be used to push people to the wall. Useful but only as a punish or a whiff punish.

- f+3+4: Mainly only used as a whiff punisher for things like Feng's sweep from range. Has good range. Punishable on block though, but harder to punish from range. Also good combo ender for long TA combos in the open.

- df+1: Ah, on to the down-forward family. Some say that to play Sumo effectively, you just need to hit down forward and button, and though it is ignorant to an extent, the message is true to a point. Sumo's down forward moves are super good.

The first one is df+1. It's a key poke. However unlike most poke df+1's, Sumo df+1 is -5 on block. Why is it any good then?

The extension.

The 4,1 part of df+1,4,1 is Natural combo on counter hit, and is a lot of advantage when the 1 hits. (if you are fast enough you can do df+1 on block, 4 see the CH 1). This makes the opponent not hit buttons after df+1, or at least hesitate, and when they hesitate you can use the mental advantage to sidestep or even attack after the df+1 on block just like other df+1's in TTT2. One of the other things that separate Sumo from the rest of the cast. The mind games off of it are not super standard but they are good regardless. Also, df+1 is your key SSR catcher.

- df+2: Another move of his that is not generic. Unlike most generic df+2's which are safe, i15 and don't launch crouchers. Sumo df+2 is -11 on block, i16, and launches crouchers. It has weird range. Thing with the punishability of df+2, it is -11, but often people don't punish it. That's mostly due to the extensions. If they try to properly punish df+2 they will eat the 1,2 afterward, and be at negative frames again. That's why people just watch for the extensions sometimes, and why you can get away with df+2 sometimes. If you can make them respect the extensions, df+2 becomes mentally safer, and thus is a really damaging poke. After +5 this will catch SSL.

- df+3: This low right here makes baby Jesus cry. Chunk of frames and they're in crouch on hit and pretty safe for a low. It also tracks both ways on even minute + like +3 (after jab on block). The range kinda sucks so they can often backdash it is open field, and a second one will whiff if they backdash after eating the first one, but dashing in during your pressure should deal with that pretty well. This move gets much better with the opponent's back to the wall, because they can't backdash away from it or from the mixups from it, and no one ducks with their back to the wall so it hits a lot often. This makes it an excellent way to pressure and chip the opponent. Overall it's one of the best lows in the game as far as the risk reward is concerned.

- df+4,1: df+4 by itself is absolute garbage because of the horrible recovery on it. df+4,1, however, is useful to a point. df+4 is a knee, so that makes it pretty good to beat reversals and parries. It also has good range. Despite being mid high, it jails so they can't duck it. It is barely safe, but the 2 extension beats all buttons if they want to mash. Why would they want to mash? df+4,1 is actually negative on hit. Make them respect the extension to continue offense. This is your primary Tag Assault string as well as your key SSL catcher from lower than +4 advantage.

- df+1+2,1: A slow string, but wallsplats, is NC, does HUGE damage, and is hitconfirmable. Pretty linear, so it's not extremely worth just throwing out there. At the wall, this move gains a lot more worth simply because it is a safe hitconfirmable wallsplat, and you can use df+3 to control sidesteps at the wall anyway. Also it is a good wall combo ender if you are unable to consistently execute Hundred Hand Slaps. The hitconfirm is available after the first hit, not second.

- df+2+3: Thunder Palm. This move is extremely good and is one of the best damaging unseeable lows in the game. The trouble is that it is slow and it is possible to avoid it with movement, but if you know they are just going to sit there, throw it out. Now a buff to Thunder Palm in TTT2, indirectly, is that it gives a mini combo now. What that does is that it makes Thunder Palm a scary 53 damage low that will hit the opponent and punish them for just standing there. Two of these is an EWGF TA combo, which is massive, and it is not particularly hard to land them back to back either.This move does have its risks, however, as it is launch punishable on block (however only -15 so Hei, Jack, Steve, Anna etc can't launch punish it) and like I said, it's easy to avoid with movement. Even so, it's a very good move and I highly recommend all Sumo players to use it and the combo afterwards. Key move, but use it with caution.
Note: On Kuma this gives a full bound combo.

- d+1: This move has lost some of its use in TTT2 due to ff+3, but it is still a chunky ground hitting tool, and if the opponent stand guarding it on oki, it is + on block. It did get a side buff though - d+1,2 is now NCc, which makes it highly damaging punish if you catch them get up kicking. The tech trap with d+1,2 seems to have removed from T6 to TTT2.

- d+2: One of the more obscure lows in Sumo's arsenal for sure. It is slow, extremely slow and thus seeable, very disadvantageous on block, negative on hit. the only redeeming quality it does have is the range which is ginormous; people don't expact you to hit their ankles all the way from over there, which is why sometimes it hits. If you're new, I'd suggest staying away from it, AND ESPECIALLY FROM THE LOW CHAIN. However if you have the opponent really hesitating then you can let loose the d+2,2 or the d+2,1 to really mess with their heads.

- d+4: Another ranged low, except it's actually semi-good. Faster than d+2, has around the same practical range and safer than d+2 too. The only problem with lows like d+4 and d+2, which reach far but are slow, is that they're really hard to hit with, against opponents that move well and unpredictably. You almost have to poke with them where you expect them to be almost a second later, rather than where they are currently. This makes it hard to implement them in a safe manner.

- d+1+2: One of his good pokes. It is actually + on block and same advantage on hit (minuscule advantage though). Has good range but linear as hell. On CH it goes into one of his grab variations, all of which KND relatively close and don't give any noteworthy oki. This move's primary use it to catch backdashes, and keep you up close. Nothing more.

- d+3+4: A HUGE stomp. This move only has one use, which isn't very practical either - after B!, if the opponent doesn't tech and you don't want to do the reset combo, you can let this loose for damage. It has horrible recovery though. Never use it in the open - not worth it.

- db+1: Even though it's not actually in the movelist, I do think his low jab has worth. If you are in a pressure situation where you're stuck, and are unwilling to headbutt for fear of punishment, low jab is good. Looking past the minuscule damage it does, it gives you good frames into FC mixup, so it is good to avoid pressure and turn the tables. Of course it suffers from the same problem other low jabs do, as it has short range, no tracking, and can be low crushed.

- db+2: Ah this is a scrub move. I lovingly call this 'Scrub Sweep', and it is because when people eat it they feel scrubby as hell, because it is essentially a Snake edge (to people unfamiliar with the term, Bryan's Snake Edge is a slow, seeable sweep that people bad with the character rinse). It shares all the properties of Snake Edge, except that it is bad on whiff too. Throw it out if you are really feeling yourself and your opponent is too terrible to see it, but do not forget to yell, "Scrub Sweep!" as you do it for added humiliation.

- db+3 and db+4: I wanted to talk about these moves together as they share the same purpose. They are both relatively quick high crush lows. Keep in mind sumo does not have a generic d+4, so he has to make do with these. db+4 is faster and has more range than db+3.

- db+1+2: His unblockable. Knocks opponent far, far away so doesn't give any oki. Linear as all hell, so it isn't very useful in the open field. However, after a 1+2 spike in a combo, you can do it right after (as in 1+2, b+1+2 string) and if they stand up it can hit them. You can cancel it into a high safe punch launcher by mashing 2, into CH ff+2 grabs by hitting 1+2, or go into SIT by hitting d.

- b+1: This is another one of those really obscure moves. It is a slow, high homing move with not much reach. It only does one thing really well -on CH it leads to a nasty, high damage mixup. If they hold back, they eat b+2,1,2 into a 1+2. They can avoid this BT combo by mashing throw and only eating b+2,1, which is all good as it is free damage, but you can duck the throw and punish it. Or they can raw tag in, in which case you can punish the raw tagging character. No one knows these escapes so b+2,1,2 is free anyway. If you whiff b+1 and they try to whiff punish, you can let loose the rest of the string assuming they aren't very fast. Not much use past that.

- b+2,1: A very misunderstood move. Many Sumo players rinse this move like a df+1 (Saint included and he's arguably the best Sumo player in the world) and to me it is absolutely not that. This is because you can do a lot in between the first and second hits. You can reverse, parry, punch parry, punch sabaki, flash, but most importantly and universal response and often the most damaging, you can SSL the second hit. As far as anti Sumo goes this is probably one of the most important thing you will ever need - learning to punish it.

However, if the opponent does not know about this, or cannot execute it consistently, you can treat it like a rekka. For those unfamiliar with the term, it's a 2D term of describing various strings that are delayable with the different hits. Sumo b+2,1,2 (the low ender is useless and only for once in a blue moon) can be treated as a rekka. You can get the first two hits to be blocked (and by good grace they don't pwn you for the second hit) and get the third hit to CH if they mash. You can get the first hit blocked and then delay the second hit in order to catch the opponent trying to mash. You can do the first two hits then stop. Now the third hit has a bad hitbox and is punishable, so be careful. Overall, a move that is good to prey on ignorance with, but risky. It also catches SSL but at certain axes, the 1 will just whiff and you'll die.

- b+4,1: Also one of those random moves. NCc, wall splats for massive damage. You can i10 interrupt between the first and second hit on block. Main bound move without walls for TA.

- b+1+2: Ah, headbutt. One of his best moves. Not counting low jab, this is your fastest attack. Yes this is 10 frames. First thing you might want to know is, this is not a poke tool. This is actually punishable on block. Don't just throw it out or you'll eat damage.

Now that out of the way, this move has its perks. It gives a KND on hit and allows run up oki, which is great for a 10 frame punish. On CH it gives this KND that allows for a free f+3+4 for scary damage. Remember the times you mash jab and get a CH but because your character sucks they don't get anything special from the CH? Well you do get something now. A BIG something. This is an excellent way to make people hesitate. They want to mash on offense? Throw it out, make them rethink your offense. They want to mash when you're on the offense? Throw it out, show them you can mash harder and hit harder when you mash harder. It's a good tool to bully the opponent. Another thing you would like to note about this move is that it has a bigger hitbox than the average i10 jab. It isn't something that's terribly useful or practical but just keep in mind

- b+1~2 or FC db+1+2: Sumo's Hundred Hand Slaps. Only used as a wall combo ender. You can mash punches to get up to 10 hits and that's when it does decently more damage than df+1+2,1 as a wall combo ender (hint: if you're bad at getting at least 8 hits then don't do it at the end of wall TA's. Unless you get 8 hits or full 10 the damage is less than df+1+2,1 as a TA ender).

- uf+1. Quite possibly his best low crush. This is what I mean when I saw Sumo's crush game is weak. Most characters have hopkicks, but what does he have? An air fireball without the fireball. Even so, this move has a few perks. It's safe for one. It it hits crouchers, it gives a free headbutt or jabs, which is great for a hitconfirmable wall splat at the wall. Not an extremely useful move after that.

[cont'd]

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 23:00

Budding Fighter
^ Thanks AZYG4LYFE!
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1606
From: New Zealand
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
2) Movelist breakdown continued

- uf+2: Fans of KOF13 compare this move to EX Kyo's qcf+HP, and I wouldn't blame them. It functions in the same manner even though it doesn't have armour or is punishable. It's a good move to control space nearing the range where d+4 is applicable. It's a homing move, is safe on block and pushes you forward on block or hit. If it hits, well and good, but if it blocked, you're in a bit of pickle. If so, you can occasionally throw out the second hit to discourage them from mashing to make use of those frames. Trouble is, you don't have time to see whether the first hit is hit or blocked, and if you throw out both hits, against most characters you're going straight up. It is heavily punishable. Overall, a very good move if used properly.

- uf+3 and uf+4: They're pretty much the same - useless, slow low crushes. I won't even go into them. uf+3 is his strongest low crush for damage, although I'd rather stick to uf+1 because it's faster.

- uf+1+2: Another good move for mid range. This is one of those moves that I personally want blocked more than hit. If it hits on the later frames, you get less disadvantage on block and if you cancel it into FC by holding down, it can be + on block. On hit it gives nosebleed stun, and contrary to what practice mode says, nothing is guaranteed on hit. There is a bit more space on hit than on block. Take care of this situation and follow up accordingly.

- uf+3+4: Jumping sit stomp. I won't talk about it as I already have, at least for the use it have.

- ff+2: Changed from Tekken 6, ff+2 is now a safe wallsplatting tool. This is another safe wall splat tool he has, but he has enough safe wall splats on regular hit and CH as it is where I feel comfortable saying that you can safely ignore this move. It's okay, but the range is just not that great for the spacing I feel.
On CH it does provide a set of hit grabs. The most damage is the 1+2 extension as it gives a combo, but that's why it gets broken the most often against smart players. Do note that ff+2 can also be cancelled into the f+2~1 move.

- ff+3: I've always felt that Sumo needed a move that hit grounded but gave advantage regardless of how it hit, whether it hit on the ground or as they woke up. That void is filled by this move. ff+3 pretty much replaced d+1 as the chunky ground hitter. It's slow so it's prone to get up kicks (CH d+1,2 or even just df+2 should teach them not to get up kick though) but other than that, it's + on block, knocks down on hit, and if it hits grounded, the opponent doesn't get knocked away, so you can still keep going, which is awesome. It's useful as an oki tool but it is a little slow to work as a staple pressure tool in the neutral game.

- ff+4: This move is just... awkward. The only reliable thing this move can do, besides being used in combos, is because Sumo lands on the ground, you can try and tag crash if it is blocked. Other than that, pretty useless.

- ff+1+2: This move is what drew me to play Sumo. ff+1+2, or Electric Wind God Clap (EWGC) is a 14 frame taggable launcher. Yes it is 14 frames (well only if done perfectly from blockstun). It leads to good damage solo, or you can tag buffer it for red life. Oh, and in case you didn't know, this move is safe. One of the best whiff punishers out there, because of the natural advance and safety. Oh and did I mention that this move tracks well too? It's very tricky to time your step against it. If you're not extremely execution savvy, just use it as an excellent whiff punisher, but if you want to, you can use this to cover Sumo's lack of a 15 frame launcher, and if you're godlike, use it to launch -14. It's tricky because every move that is -14 has different blockstun, but if you can do it, good job. Overall, an excellent move.

- ff+3+4: Going from a very usable move to a very useless move. You can use it as a combo ender after balcony breaks but that's about it.

- b,f+1: Sumo's backswing blow. It's actually only -14 on block so most people can't launch you for it on block. However it shares the same traits other backswing blows do, where they don't have good range and are death on whiff. On hit, headbutt is free unless they duck, in which case you can do df+1,4,1 or b+2,1,2 in their back and punish them. A decent backswing blow.

- b,f+2: Salt Upper! You can get this move by accident quite often, when trying to backdash and doing f+2 for keepout. It is not a horrible accident move though, as much as it looks like. This move is an excellent high crush, launches, is tag bufferable, and actually is + on block. I am not even kidding. When you throw salt in someone's face obviously you get frame advantage. Another good thing this move does is it hits grounded, This makes it a great option next to walls as an oki tool, especially after a CH b+1, b+2,1,2. To get a decent combo afterwards you have to dash under them and do the combo.

- b,db,d,df+1: It looks like Leo's BOK 2; well more like Leo's BOK 2 looks like this move as this is the OG of mid crushers. This move goes under all sorts of mids and launches super high. It's tag bufferable too. Unlike Leo BOK 2, though, this move is heavily punishable on block, despite the massive pushback. Use it sparingly at the d+4 and uf+2 range to go under keepout moves.

- b,db,d,df+2: A deathfist looking move but functions a little differently. It is safe on block with pushback. It's ability to function as a good wallsplat is limited due to its speed, or lack of it. It is really slow. However, if it hits, it does a chunk of damage, so it is a good combo ender. Again, the speed and the reach of this make it a pain to set up in open field TA combos, but at the wall it can work. Not a very practically useful move in the open. Do note that this also can be cancelled into the f+2~1 move.

- f,f,f+1+2: One of the worst if not the worst running move in the game. It is slow as hell, lots of space on block, no KND on hit, and just not that great. Only used to end TA combos that are lengthy.

- SS 1: A firm bitchslap. Besides looking cool because bitchslap, it's not that important because df+2 and EWGC are better punishers. Gives a free 1+2 on hit.

- Grounded face up 1+2: It's good to throw out once in a while but it doesn't have much conceptual difference than get up kicks, except that it goes into SIT shenanigans.

- b+1+3 or b+2+4: Sumo's punch parry. Starts up in 2 frames and lasts 8 frames. When it hits, you can mash 1+2 right afterward. f+3+4 afterward is inconsistent and can be fully avoided by raw tag. If your back is against the wall and you get the parry and you get the wall splat, an iWS 1+2,1+2 is guaranteed into a d+1 for a consistent spike.

Full Crouch

Full Crouch is essentially a stance for him, simply because of all the options he has out of it which are very unique compared to most characters who have like... three. Let's start with FC moves.

- FC d+1: This low is bloody amazing. Sumo's beefy arsenal of super good mids make this hit even more so, but take note that this low is safe. Yes this low is safe. Plus it gives advantage on hit. Not an extreme amount but moderately so; enough to get things going. The FC d+1,1 string may not look very practical, but it is useful nonetheless. This is because, although it is never ever guaranteed, it is still another hit they need to do something about, else it's free damage. If they know about this, or you have abused this one match, the opponent watches for it. This makes them hesitate if you just stop at one hit, and this can be used to set up more offense from this low that would frame wise not be legitimate.

- FC db+1_FC db+2: Not very useful. Most people's reactions against Sumo's FC game is to hopkick or block mid, and these moves don't do well against either.

- FC d+3_FC d+4: They do have more range than FC d+1 and are faster, but considering that FC mixup is to be implemented up close, those properties aren't worth the less advantage on hit.

- FC d+1+2: This move is so bad it's fun to hit people with. It gives a KND sure, but it has no tracking and is punishable, even though it has pushback. It's a fun troll move to try and hit bad players with, but not much more. It's got good range though so it can sometimes catch opponents that aren't looking for it because they think it might whiff.

- FC df+1: This is another, wait for it, rekka. However there are some differences between this and the more conventional rekka Sumo has, b+2,1,2. First of all, the first hits, FC df+1,2, cannot be delayed. They do not jail and can be parried through. They don't have a lot of advantage on hit. However, the third hit, the main juice of this, is a lot of advantage on hit, safe on block, gives a mini combo on counter hit, and leaves you pretty close on hit, unlike the first two hits. Very fun move if they don't know how to beat it.

- FC df+2: This move is awesome. First off, this is an i14 launcher. Yes this too is 14 frames. Not a lot of lows are -14 on block in this game but ones that are, like Jin d+4 and Bryan qcb+3, this is an amazing punish for those. Another thing is the range on this beast. It's monstrous. It'll hit you from miles away. It doesn't give a reliable combo at far range, but it's something at least, and thus it's an okay whiff punish for moves that end in crouch that df+2 can't reach to whiff punish. A very good move.

- WS 1: This functions like a df+1 in its basic application. A good mid poke that allows for sidesteps afterward on block and good pressure on hit. It has a delayable extension in 2 which is a low, so on block you can treat it like FC d+1 and the extension mixup, or you can sidestep and punish whiffs, whichever you prefer. After FC d+1 on hit, this will float a mashed hopkick. Good low hitbox, good move.

- WS 2: One awesome move. Only -10 for a beefy launcher. This is taggable too. It is your preferred choice when you duck strings. Another property this has, is because he is going out as he is hitting the opponent, this move can be used to turn blocked slides and low parries into red life combos. Mess around with your team and see what you get.

- WS 3: I have yet to find a practical use for this.

- WS 4: Ah, another awesome move. Besides being a good WS 4 in terms of hit box and range, it is also a poke you can just run up and do and generally be okay. It's quick and hard to step if you time it right, plus the spacing on block and hit is pretty good. One of the best WS 4's in the game for sure.

- WS 1+2,1+2: The difference between WS 2 and FC d+1's speed is four frames, possible to fuzzy guard. WS 1+2 defeats this frame fuzzy guard (fuzzy guard is a technique to parry to block low to avoid a low mid or a mid high mixup when options hit on different speeds). Other than that, it's your primary bound move at the wall and not much more (time the first hit so that it hits low). You can delay the second hit for shenanigans.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 23:03

Budding Fighter
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
3) Throws and throw oki

Sumo's throws aren't very great, but he does have lows that pack quite a punch, so he doesn't really need to throw a lot. However for the sake of completion, I'll put it here anyway.

1+3 throw

He throws you behind him. -7 on break, FUFA on hit.

If they stay down or sideroll, ff+3.
If they stand up, space.
If they backroll, run up b+2,1,2.
If they tag crash, backdash and whiff punish.

2+4 throw

He picks you up, throws 45 degrees to his left then rolls over you. -1 on break, FUFT on hit.

If they stay down or sideroll, ff+3.
If they stand up, mix them up.
If they backroll, b+2,1 floats.
If they tag crash, backdash and whiff punish.

ff+2+3 throw

He holds you up by the neck, then slams you down. -6 on break, FUFT on hit. Does 40 damage.

If they stay down or sideroll, ff+3.
If they stand up, mix them up.
If they backroll, df+1 floats.
If they tag crash, sidewalk into 1+2,1+2 in the back.

ff+1+4 throw

He lifts you, pushes you forward then puts you back on your feet. -6 on break, +5 on hit. Does 28 damage.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 20th, 2014 at 08:57

Budding Fighter
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
4) Punishers

I have gone over all of them in the movelist breakdown and won't do so again. One of the better sets of punishers in the game though. I will list damage and hit advantage in brackets.

Standing punishers

- 10: b+1+2 (25 dmg, KND, W!)

- 12: 1,2 or 1 (26 dmg, +7; 13 dmg, +9)

- 13: df+1,4 (32 dmg, -2)

- 14: 2,1, f+1+2, ff+1+2(~5) (32 dmg; +8; 40 dmg, KND, W!; 20 dmg, launch)

- 16: df+2 (20 dmg, launch)

While Standing punishers

- 10: FC db+1 (10 dmg, +6)

- 11: WS 4 (27 dmg, +5)

- 13: WS 1,2 or WS 1 (36 dmg, -2; 16 dmg, +8)

- 14: FC df+2 (27 dmg, launch)

- 16: WS 2(~5) (22 dmg, launch)

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 21st, 2014 at 01:49

Budding Fighter
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
5) Okizeme

Sumo has average oki; not the best but not too bad either. One thing he has that most characters don't is the ability to go for a certain mixup and still be able to hit grounded. I will explain this idea as we delve into the oki. He has no fancy tech traps as far as I know, just simple, good, solid meat and potato oki.

Open ground oki

When you do a combo, you can choose to go for oki with a 1+2 spike.

- You have no option to float quick rise, but since this is a spike, you can choose what spacing you want to be at here. I personally suggest staying up close for two reasons - one because the damage he can rack up from close is better and safer than at range, and two, because getting in with Sumo is not without its risks, and why take that risk when you are able to be in for free anyway?

So your options are:

- You can stay up top on them for standing mixup. In this case, 1+2, ff+3 and d+1 are the best tools to hit straight grounded. A timed side roll can avoid all this, but you can do df+3 to take care of that. If they get up, you can do a standing mixup, and if they backroll you can b+2,1 or df+1 to float them. 1+2 is also a good ground hit here because it will launch get up kicks.

- You can go into a Full Crouch mixup. In this case, FC d+1 will hit grounded and hit sideroll. If they get up you can FC/WS mixup, and if they backroll, a WS 1 will catch them for a combo. FC df+2 will launch get up kicks.

- To beat Tag Crash you can sidewalk and punish their back with 1+2,1+2 or b+2,1,2.

As you can see it, it's not the best situation in the world but it could be far worse. That's just one setup, and there's more out there but I'll just leave you with this one.

Wall oki

Sumo is one of the better characters at the wall. This is because not only can he pile on good pressure, he can also maintain pressure after doing his max damage combo at the wall.

After HHS hits:

- If they techroll, mix up df+3 with uf+1. If uf+1 hits a crouching opponent (which they would crouch to block df+3), you can confirm into b+1+2 and do another wall combo. If df+3 hits you can continue into wall pressure.

- If they stay down, ff+3 will hit.

Unfortunately there is no way to recover from the combo early enough to punish tag crash, but think about this. They were forced to tag crash. You will have positional advantage over them as well as frame advantage, which means they're stuck even if they tag crash.

Now some knock down oki.

- After (2,1),2, if they get up they get floated by df+1. Sidewalk tag crash.

- After b+2,1,2 hits, do a delayed 1+2. If they get up, it will hit in their back and you can confirm (albeit it's tough) into the second 1+2 and get a beefy back combo. If they stay down or sideroll, it will hit grounded. If they tag crash it will trade with the outgoing character and you get that damage for free anyway.

- After b+1+2, if they tech you can force a mixup. If they stay down, hit them with a 1+2 or a ff+3. If they back roll, df+1 and b+2,1 will float.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 20th, 2014 at 09:53

Budding Fighter
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
6) General Strategy

Finally onto the good stuff. Here I'll give my personal opinion on Sumo and how he should be played. Keep in mind there's more than one way to play him, and I will try and cover multiple approaches, but I encourage new players to formulate their own styles of play from these basic ideas.

Hopefully from the movelist breakdown, you understood one crucial point - Sumo's movelist is very varied and suitable for multiple styles and multiple approaches. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you can make just one gameplan and stick to it. When you look at his movelist in a little more detail you see there are moves that go from far to close (uf+2, ff+3) and from close to far (f+2, 1,2, df+1,4), and your main idea is to keep the opponent confused as to what you are doing and where you are going.

From mid range, remember uf+2 and its ability to control space around the tip of it? That's a good option to limit the opponent's movement options because you're covering this wide arc in front of yourself the opponent can't enter. Their options to avoid uf+2 include blocking mid to block the uf+2 and capitalising on the frame advantage, or backdashing to make it whiff and punish it. Think about what you have just done by threatening by this one move - you have limited the opponent's options and presented yourself as the main in charge of this neutral zone right here.

To beat blocking you can d+4 or advance up close to do close range mixups and to beat backdashing you can run up to either uf+2 range again or close up to do close range mixups. Or you don't have to necessarily do anything and just threaten with movement. The idea of doing something out of nothing - a crucial aspect to play Tekken.

So, you hit uf+2, or just made your way in to go on the offense. Where do you go from here?
On offense of course.
Once you have + frames in range zero with Sumo, it is just a matter of guessing right, and nothing can stop you. When you're in, just think of these four things you can do. This works exceptionally well if you have +5 or more.

They're just standing there? df+3, jab, or thunder palm
They're sidestepping left? df+1
They're sidestepping right? df+2
They're backdashing? d+1+2 or run back in to reset.

I have actually made a document describing the use of + frames and how to apply pressure, which explains the meta of general Tekken offense in much more detail. Access it by clicking on Sumo here ->

However there are some parts where my document and Sumo differ, so I'll explain that in more detail here.

You look at what is essentially his main mid poke, df+1, and you think, "Well it's -6 on block so it's not exactly the best poke out there because you can't sidestep jabs after it gets blocked," and you would be true in thinking that he can't sidestep jabs afterwards, but do note that Sumo has an NCc extension after df+1, so if they try to jab after df+1, you can let loose the 4,1 part of the string and get a whopping advantage over the opponent, which was the whole point behind doing df+1 in the first place. This also holds true somewhat for other strings Sumo has, such as df+4,1,2 and b+2,1,2, and to an extent FC df+1,2,1. Even though there's a decent amount of -ve frames on block for the first hit or first two hits, the following attack makes the opponent not wanting to capitalise on the frame advantage they got. Other characters make use of this through movement after their pokes and though movement has greater reward in terms of whiff punishment, strings are easier to implement because there are less things for you to read as the aggressor - with strings it's either they will block or they will not block. Now, with these strings there's another thing you can do, and that is to delay them. With a string that does not have any delayability to it, they are easier to punish and react to. An example would be, say, 2,1. A delayable string, however, presents the bonus of delaying the attack. That can really mess with the opponent if you do, say, df+1 vs df+1,4 vs df+1 max delay 4. Some strings have better escapes if they are delayed, and if the opponent is looking for that, you can use it to set up something. For example, against df+1, say their character can backswing blow the second hit if you delay it. The opponent is thus looking for that delay, and because they are looking the delay more, you can follow up with, say, Thunder Palm. Using this, you're giving more information to them to remember than they should have, thus rendering their concentration less viable, as the human mind can only focus on a single particular thing at a particular time. Making the opponent think of more things than what you are doing, that is the best way to mix someone up in TTT2. Make them go through all the tools you have at your disposal, and once they are thinking more than you are, you've won the battle of attrition.

As far as the application of his FC mixup goes, think about the general, on the surface safety of it. You have FC d+1 as a safe low, WS 1 and WS 4 as safe mid pokes and WS 2 as an only -10 launcher. This makes it a just run up and do thing, as well as a tool to safely chip the opponent on wakeup, perhaps to get the kill, or perhaps to enrage the opponent's characters, whatever the case may be. Don't forget that Sumo doesn't have to necessarily go for unsafe stuff - he's pretty safe, and even though he doesn't take chunks off the opponent's life with mixups the same way Mishimas can, or TKD characters, his ability to chip away at the opponent's lifebar in a safe, strong and controlled manner is what makes him an incredibly strong character. You don't have to risk all your life on a low, unless of course you get hopkicked, but outside of that, you are not forced to use Thunder Palm if you don't want to or if the situation doesn't call for it, you feel. You can just df+3 and then try to play Tekken afterwards - move forwards or move backwards (and move sideways but moving forwards and backwards isn't just that; it's aggressive movement and defensive movement). Patience is key.

To summarise, to be a good Sumo player you need good spacial awareness, understanding of your own options and those of your opponent's, knowledge of the application of frames in an offensive and defensive manner, and patience. You can say this applies to every character in the game, and you would be right. This is just how Sumo uses the five fundamentals (reading, confidence, movement, punishing, spacial awareness) and runs his game.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 20th, 2014 at 12:55

Budding Fighter
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
7) Peeling the onion

Two backdashes away

Annoy. Frustrate. Punish them for moving so you can move in.

They rush in -> move backwards or jab. Keep the space.

OR

Use their forward movement as a way to establish your own space (not as effective).

- MAINTAIN DISTANCE IF THEY KEEP BEING AGGRESSIVE.

Use f+2 to push out (see how they use the disadvantage on block)
Intercept forward momentum with 1. Use the advantage for own offense.

- If they're defending, tack on damage.

TAKE THE BULL BY THE HORNS AND PRESS FORWARD.

Pattern check range check
Check after how many dashes or how much space is between Sumo and opponent are they reaching. VALUABLE INFORMATION.

This is fake aggression (move in with defensive purpose).

Poking with d+4
Predict their movement and where they will be when it will hit.

Be judicious with uf+2 as it's heavy negative on block.

One backdash away

MIND YOURSELF!!! Whiff punishing is more necessary then ever here, but don't waste time just looking for whiffs. (Two second rule - look for something for two seconds then regroup or retry)

Pokes from flowchart reach here but can be backdashed. Risky, but if they poke hits you're set.

Either backdash to avoid close range scrapping, or dash forward to step on.

Hardest range to control.

Maintain range
If they move forward, move back.
If they move back, move forward.


Range zero

On offense - as long as you have +5 advantage or more, follow flowchart and keep hitting the opponent. Stay on top to chip opponent.

df+3 can push opponent to one backdash away. Be careful.

On defense - MOVE!!! Space against all attacks.
Low parry lows as a general rule - block if you feel heavy lows are coming.

Make your way to one backdash away.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 30th, 2014 at 08:49

Budding Fighter
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
8) Wall Game

Ah, the wall. Sumo is a monster at the wall for two big reasons:

1) Think about the movement options the opponent has at the wall. They can't backdash, which is one of the only two ways to really get Sumo off of you - the other one being guessing right. This means two things - one being that to avoid Sumo's pressure, the opponent has to guess right on sidesteps, and that isn't easy with df+1 tracking SSR, df+2 tracking SSL and df+3 tracking both ways. Also, df+3 doesn't push back pretty much at all at the wall, which is awesome because you get to take full control of the +6 that it gives you and not have to deal with pushback that can make it difficult to implement the frame advantage.

2) Sumo has a metric ton of moves that will hurt if they mess up. If they do something punishable, they'll eat a wall splat (headbutt at -10). If they duck they'll eat a wall splat (uf+1 OC b+1+2 or df+1+2,1 HC W!). If they commit to a sidewalk either way they eat a wall splat (uf+2,1+2). They mash buttons, they'll eat a wall splat (CH 1, b+1+2). So the best thing for them to do is to just sit there and block (or sidewalk and bait out an uf+2,1+2 but that's not that easy). Now he doesn't have a low wall splat like Changs, but he does have one of the best poke lows in the game in df+3. This low is so brutally annoying to eat repeatedly, and they, for the sake of their own life, have to pretty much sit there and take all of them.

Thunder palm, however, loses its effectiveness near the wall because you don't get the same combo off of it, and it's pretty much impossible to avoid tag crash after it.

Thus to summarise, Sumo's wall game revolves around maintaining + frames and chipping the opponent to death with df+3, and punish any retaliation they might have. Simple, effective, and strong.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 30th, 2014 at 08:24

Budding Fighter
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
9) Combos

Solo combos

In the open

A full list of solo combos with damages can be found by clicking Sumo here ->

However I'll list the basic combos you'll need to play Sumo. Nothing too fancy, just simple stuff.

df+2
b+4,1 B! dash b+2,1~CC df+4,1,2 (CC = crouch cancelling, done by tapping up as b+2,1 recovers to cancel crouch into stand)

FC df+2
dash b+4,1 B! dash b+2,1~CC df+4,1,2

WS 2, ff+1+2, CH SIT 1, db+2
df+1+2,1, b+4,1 B! dash df+4,1,2

b,db,d,df+1
uf+1+2~d, WS 1, 2,1,2 B! dash df+4,1,2

df+2+3
FC d+1~CC df+4,1,2 (it's a little tough but it's mandatory IMO to be able to do this on command so that your Thunder Palm packs a punch)
Video explaining Thunder Palm combo


Another combo you can learn that hits off of pretty much every launcher but is hard to do, is:

b+2,1~CC b+2,1, WS 1+2,1+2 B! b,db,d,df+2

The timing is weird for the crouch cancel, the bound as well as the ender.

At the wall
2,1,2 B! df+1+2,1 (basic combo)
WS 1+2,1+2 B! 1,2, HHS (advanced, max damage combo. Let the first hit hit for grounded scaling.)

TA fillers and enders
In the open
Fillers: uf+3 for one hit max damage, ff+4 to flip them around, df+4,1,2 for carry (does not hit after 5 air hits)
Enders: uf+1+2~d~CC df+4,1,2, (max damage), running 1+2 and f+3+4 for lengthy combos

Side note: Some tips on Sumo uf+1+2~d~CC df+4,1,2 ender
This is often times Sumo's best damage combo ender. The way you land this is by:
Launch, b+4,1 TA! two hit filler uf+1+2~d~CC df+4,1,2
The trick to this, unless your tag filler gives a spike, is to let uf+1+2 hit as late as possible, as uf+1+2 has a lot of active frames, and the later it hits, the higher they float relative to your own recovery and the easier the cancel is. After say Bob WS 3,3+4 you really have to do the cancel perfectly, not a lot you can do about it.


At the wall
Fillers: 3,4,4 max damage, df+1+2,1 and df+4,1,2 if you don't want to end with a spike.
Enders: HHS and df+1+2,1 hit regardless of wall scaling (HHS is faster than df+1+2,1 so it can hit where df+1+2,1 won't). b,db,d,df+2 can hit but it's hard to set up.

See my combos with Baek/Sumo HERE for combo examples.

Red life stuff

I'll list the opportunities Sumo gets in TTT2 to deplete the opponent's red life here, whether they be standard or not.

- ff+1+2~5
- WS 2~5
- b,f+2~5
- b,db,d,df+1~5
- df+2, ff+1+2~5 (relatively low float)
- SIT 2, WS 2~5 (low float)
- W! ff+1+2~5 (allows 12 frame low hits to connect)
- Low Parry, iWS 2~5 (low float)
- Blocked slide, iWS 2~5 (low float)

Last edited by Budding Fighter on May 31st, 2014 at 07:25

sandilord
Destructive Impulse
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey budding. Nice write up. I'd advise to add a link to Ganny's compilation thread in the first post. It has a lot of info, part of what you wrote was already there.

Some feedback/my opinion on the movelist breakdown:
-I find his getup 3 juggle pretty reliable. Weíre talking about get up 3, ws1 etc right?
-I have never been punished for 212. I think you can only get FC1 unless they have a i10 ws4 (only Lee?)
-You missed 24. Opponents never expect the low so you can chip with it here and there.
-Little detail on SIT~d~f: you can do 1+2 to do the jump grab.
-SIT~d~d_u has a use when doing it BT. You can slide sideways from your opponent and continue with a (sometimes side)throw, BT 1+2 or a quick tun around low. Just a gimmick but it saved my ass out of some situations.
-I find f1+2 a very good move, not only as punisher. I also use it as keepout and whiffpunishment and sometimes just throw it out for a fast longrange 40 dmg safe Ďpokeí.
-After df2, a fast opponent can always punish with i10. It interrupts (df2)~12.
-df41: Iíd like to emphasize this is just about Gannyís only standing move that canít be reversed. Ganny is so easily parryable that this move is a must against reversal spammers.
-df1+2 by itself is safe but not against Yoshi, he can always flash you for a full juggle.
-df2+3. Thereís discussion about it being unseeable. I for one canít see it thoughÖ
-d2: If low on life or on an unsuspecting opponent it can be rewarding to go for d212,d1_df1_1. D22 can work too.
-b1. Deserves a bit more credit to me. Itís pretty damn good and has the potential to do so much damage. You can also do CH b1, df141, df14. CH b111 does a shitload of damage and if opponents block the whole string youíre at +3.
-b41. You forgot to type the 1. Why wouldnít you use this as WB!? Itís also safe.
-uf3 and uf4 arenít the same. Uf4 is complete shit, stay away from it. uf3 has some uses. Itís damn slow but his most damaging lowcrush at 42 dmg on NH. It also wallsplats for a high damage juggle (due to that base damage). Itís his most damaging single hit TA!, so if you donít need the pop-up from ff4 you can just do uf3. -10. (shame he lost the free 1+2 afterwards though, that was completely unnecessary)
-ff2 is pretty ok. Nice range, throwshift on CH, wallsplat on NH and safe.
-HCF2: does more than a chunck of damage. Weíre talking about 72 damage for a single hit on CH! For the record, can be canceled into HCF2~1 for his +clap.
-WR1+2 has some uses. It has +millions on block so if you get it on block (can be iWRíed) you get a mixup.
-b1+3: when you do it with your back against the wall you get assrape into W! and can B! with iWS1+2,1+2.
-FC d1+2: I donít find this move as bad as you. Itís fast enough to not be seen and pretty damaging. Itís a reason to duck. If Iím not mistaken you can do FC1+2, W!, ws1+2,1+2 B! at the right distance.
-ws1+2,1+2: Why would I want to use this as my main WB!? Am I missing something here? I think both 212 and b41 do more damage.

I find his throws/oki of them pretty good. Opponents are left near to him so he can always keep them under pressure. You might want to add the throws from CH d1+2 and CH ff2.
Signature s3:
Tofma
Dragon Lord
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 818
From: Finland
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Might also want to mention that while df2+3 is risky. It's -15 and not -23 or -40 like most lows that knock down. It makes a big difference against someone like say Jack.

@sandilord
df21 is definitely uninterruptible.

Also b41 isn't a very consistent B! at the wall unless it's a high wallsplat. And ws1+2,1+2 is good because you can even time it so that the first hit is a low wallhit and the second will still B! practically making it a 1-hit B! at the wall which means the second character can use better fillers (Low wallhits don't cause the opponent to slide off the wall faster). With certain teammates 2,1,2 is better and with other ws1+2,1+2 is better.

Last edited by Tofma on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 16:05

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Budding Fighter
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From: New Zealand
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by sandilord
Hey budding. Nice write up. I'd advise to add a link to Ganny's compilation thread in the first post. It has a lot of info, part of what you wrote was already there.

Some feedback/my opinion on the movelist breakdown:
-I find his getup 3 juggle pretty reliable. Weíre talking about get up 3, ws1 etc right?
-I have never been punished for 212. I think you can only get FC1 unless they have a i10 ws4 (only Lee?)
-You missed 24. Opponents never expect the low so you can chip with it here and there.
-Little detail on SIT~d~f: you can do 1+2 to do the jump grab.
-SIT~d~d_u has a use when doing it BT. You can slide sideways from your opponent and continue with a (sometimes side)throw, BT 1+2 or a quick tun around low. Just a gimmick but it saved my ass out of some situations.
-I find f1+2 a very good move, not only as punisher. I also use it as keepout and whiffpunishment and sometimes just throw it out for a fast longrange 40 dmg safe Ďpokeí.
-After df2, a fast opponent can always punish with i10. It interrupts (df2)~12.
-df41: Iíd like to emphasize this is just about Gannyís only standing move that canít be reversed. Ganny is so easily parryable that this move is a must against reversal spammers.
-df1+2 by itself is safe but not against Yoshi, he can always flash you for a full juggle.
-df2+3. Thereís discussion about it being unseeable. I for one canít see it thoughÖ
-d2: If low on life or on an unsuspecting opponent it can be rewarding to go for d212,d1_df1_1. D22 can work too.
-b1. Deserves a bit more credit to me. Itís pretty damn good and has the potential to do so much damage. You can also do CH b1, df141, df14. CH b111 does a shitload of damage and if opponents block the whole string youíre at +3.
-b41. You forgot to type the 1. Why wouldnít you use this as WB!? Itís also safe.
-uf3 and uf4 arenít the same. Uf4 is complete shit, stay away from it. uf3 has some uses. Itís damn slow but his most damaging lowcrush at 42 dmg on NH. It also wallsplats for a high damage juggle (due to that base damage). Itís his most damaging single hit TA!, so if you donít need the pop-up from ff4 you can just do uf3. -10. (shame he lost the free 1+2 afterwards though, that was completely unnecessary)
-ff2 is pretty ok. Nice range, throwshift on CH, wallsplat on NH and safe.
-HCF2: does more than a chunck of damage. Weíre talking about 72 damage for a single hit on CH! For the record, can be canceled into HCF2~1 for his +clap.
-WR1+2 has some uses. It has +millions on block so if you get it on block (can be iWRíed) you get a mixup.
-b1+3: when you do it with your back against the wall you get assrape into W! and can B! with iWS1+2,1+2.
-FC d1+2: I donít find this move as bad as you. Itís fast enough to not be seen and pretty damaging. Itís a reason to duck. If Iím not mistaken you can do FC1+2, W!, ws1+2,1+2 B! at the right distance.
-ws1+2,1+2: Why would I want to use this as my main WB!? Am I missing something here? I think both 212 and b41 do more damage.

I find his throws/oki of them pretty good. Opponents are left near to him so he can always keep them under pressure. You might want to add the throws from CH d1+2 and CH ff2.


I meant the get up 3 combo from FUFT. CH FUFT 3, FC d+1,1 WS 1+2,1+2 etc. The bound misses fairly regularly so I've just done FC d+1 CC df+4,1,2.

I eat Yoshi WS 4 for punish for 2,1,2 all the time. rbnorway has it at -11~-10 so depending on whether they are walking back as they block it and you delayed it I guess it could be -10. I'll note that down then. Lei, AO and Lee should get their punishes guaranteed then though.

I was thinking I missed something haha. I never use it so I'll just take your word for it.

Splits~f leads into ff+2 grabs? Wow nice I didn't know that haha. I'll add that.

As for splits~sidestep, I never use that either. To be honest I never SIT unless I want to crush stuff and SIT 2, or SIT 3+4 to troll from far away.

Thing with f+1+2 to whiff punish, it is good, but as a new player I'd rather just focus on doing only ff+1+2. If we give new players too much to think about it's confusing. I will add its use as a whiff punish though... can't believe I forgot that even though I use it myself.

Like Tofma said, (df+2),1,2 is uninterruptable by jabs. HOWEVER, snake edge goes under it (shoutouts to Mr Naps) and crouch jab always punishes it without any mixup.

I've landed all df+2+3 I've tried, so IDK man. I've seen Koreans eat it too (though Saint usually only does df+3).

d+2 mixup is not something I'd advise a Sumo player to just start with. I will however add that because that's an effective use of it at times haha.

b+1 is too slow for a high for me. I've tried messing with it, but at the range I like to use uf+2 to control steps b+1 is just not effective, and up close I'd rather use df+1 and df+3. b+1 on CH does lead to horrific damage though for sure. I always do b+2,1 because I've had df+1 whiff on me on occasions.

Like Tofma said, b+4,1 is inconsistent as a bound at walls. It works after a wall splat, but after a wall carry it doesn't work. WS 1+2,1+2 is only one hit, does more damage and works on everyone everywhere. Also like I said, the opponent can interrupt b+4,1 with 10 frame attacks from my memory (could do so in T6, haven't checked in TTT2).

Same with uf+3. There's uf+1 for a faster, safe low crush. If they crouch you can confirm into headbutt. I dunno, I guess it's up to style but I'd rather throw them air fireballs without the fireball (uf+1).

Running 1+2 only gives +9 (only... lol), but the pushback makes it hard to use those + frames. I'd use it a whole lot more if it was faster (something along the lines of 21 to 22; currently 24 frames) and the pushback on block was less.

DOH I missed the assrape wall combo. I'm a scrub, sorry.

I dunno, FC d+1+2 is like 23 frames and I get that blocked pretty consistently if I use it as a mixup tool. It's hard to punish though, I'll give you that. I'll have to look into the wall combo.

Tofma said about the use of WS 1+2,1+2 at the wall for bound.

I want to add the CH d+1+2 and CH ff+2 throws but my knowledge of the oki on them is really shaky. If someone could help me out there I'd appreciate it. Plus Sumo's lows are so good I don't really feel like using his throws, even though his throws give alright oki. The oki off it is okay, it's better than Alisa's throws at least haha.

EDIT: I didn't see that; I'll link people to the Compilation thread too. BTW if you think it's sticky worthy then by all means go for it.
Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
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amphreded
Iron Fist God
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1960
From: Thailand
PSN: amphreded
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks for the write up!

Regarding the discussions:

- CH FUFT getup 3 you can get FC d+1,1, ws+1,2 for good damage + floor break as well. Otherwise, CH FUFT getup 3, FC d+1,1, ws+1, small dash d/f+4,1,2 for better damage + wall carry though tougher.
- Agree with Sandilord on using f+1+2 outside punishment. I don't do it often, but it can catch people dashing in & out. On block, d/f+2 catches a lot of people try to move in (i.e. DJ's ff+2 type of moves); if they backdash after f+1+2 on block and you throw out d/f+2, you're safe even if you whiff it.
- SIT d_u while sidestepping he blocks during the entire animation, and can block right after he finishes stepping (not 100% sure, if anyone wants to check). Opponent can't do anything if they're using high or mid. Lows and throws will still get him. Rarely use anyway.
- d+2 on tip range makes a lot of punishing attempts whiff and you'd get a free launch. d+2,2 and d+2,1 mixup if blocked close enough range isn't that much of a mixup though since I believe opponent can interrupt both d+2,2 and d+2,1 with fast ws moves.
- I've seen Saint using wr+1+2 successfully. He mostly did it from relatively close range fff+1+2, into multiple ones. I do quite agree it's not very useful if you try to close in the range with this move since it is easily steppable.
- Regarding ws+1+2,1+2 as bound, I use this for wall bound after wall carry. After wall carry, b+4,1 cannot be used unless very high wall splat. Mostly of the time you're going to carry with df412 or b21 into the wall, instances which 2,1,2 and ws+1+2,1+2 both work. I pair Ganny with Yoshi and ws+1+2,1+2, being a 2 hit moves, allow better combo damage. So it just depends on who's your partner is, then switch between 2,1,2 and ws+1+2,1+2 accordingly.

Other things on top of my head:

- d/b+2 is actually usable. Yes it's seeable, but it high crushes well and can catch people in the midst of their backdashes. Some places that I use d/b+2 are: 1) punishing raw tag when the character tagging in has good parry/reversal moves (if they anticipate you're gonna use db+2, expect a hopkick you - be mindful). 2) Ganryu raw tagging in then you can use d/b+2 to crush against electrics and other high launchers (not at all frames, but common enough). 3) Opponent whiffs something from afar, you can use d/b+2 to whiff launch them. ff+1+2 is usually better but if opponent whiffs but recovers crouching, your ff+1+2's not going to hit them but d/b+2 can.
- I really like d/b+4 and FC4 lows. Some games I won't use it, but some I will use it quite a lot. d/b+4 on tip is hard to punish. In fact, if you hit opponent with b+2,1, then use FC4 - if opponent blocks the FC4 and try to punish you with ws+4, it will whiff, and you'll get a free FC d/f+2 launch. Due to how Ganryu doesn't really put his body forward except his leg during the animation, it's harder to punish on whiff / block. FC d+1 is definitely a good move, safer and with better tracking; however, d/b+4_fc4 are better as keep-out lows for safeness in term of whiffs.
- after ff+2+3 throw, you can use d/f+1+2 for pickup as well. I prefer this option over d/f+1 because if opponent stands up and block, I like getting d/f+1+2 blocked more than d/f+1.
- hcf+2 on block leads to fc d/f+2 trap. I took this from Saint and does work quite well against unknowingly opponents.
- 4,4 on block can also lead to whiffed ws+4 punishes, thus giving you free d/f+2.
- Maybe you should mention that d/f+1,4 is -13 on block? Many people don't know about this.
gettingfood
Raijin
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 636
From: United States
PSN: Gettingfood
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Just for reference, moves that can't be parried or reversed
B1+2
F3+4
df41
Uf1+2

I'm pretty sure ff3+4 can't be messed with either.
Metal X Soldier
Champion
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 259
From: USA Texas
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Have not finished reading the guide but so far it's amazing. Why is this not stickied? :/
Signature CAves......

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