Mediocre Moves That Need Buffing Or Got Nerfed

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forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Listen to this while viewing this thread, it makes it better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl3vxEudif8


Have a move that you think could use buffs, or maybe could simply be wiped clean off of Law's movelist? Post your move, and your rant, here!


I have a lot of moves in mind for this thread, but I made this thread with BT uf+4 in mind. Law's back turned (BT) stance's main, big threat is the back turned hopkick (BT uf+4). But, Law's BT hopkick is like any other character's BT hopkick: CRAPPY!

The range is terrible. I can do a b+4,b to get into BT stance, then IMMEDIATELY do BT uf+4, and the BT uf+4 will whiff. The b+4,b itself has decent range. But that is part of the reason why the BT hopkick can whiff. The b+4,b is in range, but the BT uf+4 is out of range.

It seems to me that opponents who are simply holding back on the stick to block can have their character walk out of BT uf+4's range!

The ideal buff for Law in my opinion to fix this issue would be to give Law a move like Ling Xiaoyu's BT 4. Ling's BT 4 has WAY more range than a BT uf+4. It would be cool if it was the same on block as Ling's, too, -18 or whatever hers is.


The other mid option out of BT is BT 2,2, which is -17 on block. While, yes, it is hit confirmable, God help you if you fail to hit confirm the move. -17 on block. I am thinking of only using the first hit from now on. BT 2 by itself is a CH launcher.


uf+3+4 Law's stomp is way too bad on whiff, and it has crappy range!


It would be nice for Laws to have a mid out of BT stance that allows Law to remain in BT stance like Feng has with Feng's BT 2. I like Law's BT 2 the way it is now, Namco, though! Pick another move to mess around with!


I see Rip using BT 4,3 quite a lot. -12 on block and only a combo on CH, AND only the second hit a mid, the one saving grace is that it does knock down and wallsplat...on the second hit. While I do not use or like the move, or think it should be buffed, if it was a normal hit combo it would be AMAZING, I do think it is not nearly as good as BT 3 or BT 2. VERDICT: A CRAPPY MOVE! Deserves to be here in this thread.


3,4 is a piece of crap now. I stick to other punishers, usually, unless I really want that knockdown really bad. Such long recovery time.


1,2,3 is another move that got crappy. -9?? Too harsh! I have stopped using 1,2,3 and I only use 1,2,f+2 now. Also -9 on block with the threat of the 1,2,f+2,1+2 fourth hit for a wallsplat on normal hit.


f+2~1 is a piece of shit. Why would you ever use such a launch punishable, SLOW, short range move, when a perfectly good uf+4 15f, -13 on block, low crushing hopkick is readily available? The only reason would be to show off a GREAT! combo with Paul.


BT 1+2 is never, EVER used, and for good reason. Just what purpose does this move serve, other than to make Law's movelist just a bit longer? None! It is a high, SLOW punch what offers nothing on hit.


Law's db+1+2 unblockable definitely deserves to be in this thread. The damage is nerfed, the range is nerfed, the speed is nerfed, the recovery is nerfed, no longer does Law get a mini combo, I could go on and on about the many, many nerfs! I was playing Tekken DR on my PSP, and MAN, even as recent as Tekken DR, Law's db+1+2 had so much more range, damage, and just overall effectiveness.

Don't agree with me? Is there a move that you think totally sucks and needs to get wiped out? Is there a move that got nerfed way to hard? Maybe there is a move that Law needs! Post it!

Last edited by forest16 on Oct 9th, 2013 at 13:26

CommanderEpic
1st Dan
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 12
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
If I'm not mistaken, Forest has no followups to the manual parries (b1+3, b2+4). That's kind of dumb.

If I am mistaken please correct me.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CommanderEpic
If I'm not mistaken, Forest has no followups to the manual parries (b1+3, b2+4). That's kind of dumb.

If I am mistaken please correct me.
Great observation
sspaajms120
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CommanderEpic
If I'm not mistaken, Forest has no followups to the manual parries (b1+3, b2+4). That's kind of dumb.

If I am mistaken please correct me.

Move that needs buffing...
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~ you are limited in what you can do by how much you are ready to do

Put in everything you got to push yourself beyond your limits to a place where there are no limits and you will be ready for anything.
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forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by sspaajms120
Move that needs buffing...
Considering the risk involved in attempting a parry, getting nothing is absurd.
CommanderEpic
1st Dan
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 12
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
So it's agreed there's no followup? Meh, I was hoping somebody knew something. We'll just stick with the Fake Step then.

By the way forest, I saw your explanation of DSS for Marshall on another site, it really helped me out.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CommanderEpic
So it's agreed there's no followup? Meh, I was hoping somebody knew something. We'll just stick with the Fake Step then.

By the way forest, I saw your explanation of DSS for Marshall on another site, it really helped me out.
Thanks for the feedback

Here is the aforementioned tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGkm...jn2zeAmFMlaUgxj

I do admit that it has low production values, and that it is too long, though. I might do another tutorial.

Last edited by forest16 on Oct 31st, 2013 at 23:48

forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Do yo guys like Law's d+4,3?

I personally hate the move for a few reasons.

First, it is a 22 point of damage poke move that is launchable, completely not worth it.

Second, db+3 is only 2 frames slower, and is -13 on block.

Thirdly, d+4,3 used to be Law's Low Kick to Somersault move.


Since they added d+4,3, Law's Low Kick to Somersault, one of Law's best anti-stance moves, and a better move than d+2,3, even, since it hits low to the ground stances and is a true low attack, got changed to a double button input, d+3+4,3.

Changing it to d+3+4,3 means that in the clutch scenarios when you can not possibly risk messing up your Low Kick to Somersault, like counter-hitting a jab string at the end of a round on reaction , you might get d+4 or d+3 instead. d+4 and d+3 do not high crush!

This is the difference between a win or a loss. Low Kick to Somersault is a MEGA DAMAGE CH high crush equalizer. I even think it is in Law's top 20 moves. I still think that d+3+4,3 is a great move, and I do still use it. But, now that it got changed, I have had to button map 3+4 to a button on my joystick. Namco's nerfing of Low Kick to Somersault has turned me into one of those button map guys.

d+3+4 by itself is a terrific move on its own as well. Only doing 9 points of damage, it is super fast and recovers crouching. Definitely classified as an unseeable low if you belive in that line of thinking, d+3+4 can also be the difference in a close game, for sure. Way faster than d+1, which is 21 frames.

I played Law/Jin as my main team in Tekken Tag 1, back when Law's movelist was probably half the size of what it is now, and let me tell you, what you now know as d+3+4 was probably one of my most used moves back then. Back then, Law had no db+3, d+1, or what is now d+4,3. All Law had was Slide, db+4, and d+4, the basic low kick d+4. But I made it work.
CommanderEpic
1st Dan
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 12
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
A few things...

Yes, post a new tutorial. I'm sure people will pass it by even though it has a superior explanation to others'.

Also, I had an idea for the manual parry; since I struggle (as Marshall) to nail the DSS transition, what if we turned the parry into a mixup? I'm thinking on parry, do a throw. 99% of my post-parry strikes are standing blocked. Turning a parry into a 2+4~Tag or a f,f 3+4 seems worth it enough for me to risk my opponent ducking and punishing.

After a few grabs we could easily switch out the throw for a hopkick or a 3+4.



Finally, I agree on d4, 3, even though I use it occasionally. I'll condition myself to d3+4, seems way better as a poke.
sspaajms120
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CommanderEpic
Yes, post a new tutorial. I'm sure people will pass it by even though it has a superior explanation to others'.

i can post a new DSS tutorial,if thats ok...
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~ you are limited in what you can do by how much you are ready to do

Put in everything you got to push yourself beyond your limits to a place where there are no limits and you will be ready for anything.
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forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Yeah, make a DSS tutorial if you want to, Smazms. Just make sure you have correct information in it:

Kicks: b,f, before the move hits but while the move is animating, then f after the kick has hit.
Punches: b,f only. Much easier than with kicks.

I do not have the video capturing and editing skills, tbh. I was never really into making videos about Tekken. Sure I watched some combo vids like we all tend to do, but I never got into it. I was always just a player. Know what I mean?

Originally posted by CommanderEpic
A few things...

Yes, post a new tutorial. I'm sure people will pass it by even though it has a superior explanation to others'.

Also, I had an idea for the manual parry; since I struggle (as Marshall) to nail the DSS transition, what if we turned the parry into a mixup? I'm thinking on parry, do a throw. 99% of my post-parry strikes are standing blocked. Turning a parry into a 2+4~Tag or a f,f 3+4 seems worth it enough for me to risk my opponent ducking and punishing.

After a few grabs we could easily switch out the throw for a hopkick or a 3+4.



Finally, I agree on d4, 3, even though I use it occasionally. I'll condition myself to d3+4, seems way better as a poke.
Yeah, I might make a new tutorial. It would be really low quality, though. Unless I decide to shell out a bunch of money to upgrade what I currently use.

Marshall's b+(1+3_2+4) manual parry is only a b,f input, not too hard. What most Laws do is the easiest option, the DSS 1,f+4. But I am pretty sure you can get better things like DSS 2 for a knockdown and oki, or maybe even a raw DSS f+1 without the DSS 1.

I like b+4,b as an option. 14f mid poke with the BT mixup. db+3 is a great low. But yeah, u can grab. Grabs come out quick. Just be sure to mix things up. 1,2,f+2 is great too, mixing up the fourth hit, the 1+2, with a delay.

d+3+4 might be good after a b+2+4 parry with Forest You might want to bind a button to 3+4 if you want to use Law seriously imo. Lots of moves that are 3+4 with the character. f+3+4, 3+4 which I like at the wall, d+3+4, f,f+3+4.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
Since the beginning of Tekken, Law has relied on his standing basic 4 to counter-hit his opponent for a combo. The move makes them think twice before rushing in.

HOWEVER! Law's, and most, if not all, standing basic 4 CH launchers in the game, have been severely nerfed. The move is now -9 on block!


Laws have a lot of moves that might look like they have good range, but they have very short range in reality. Law's uf+4 hopkick is a good example. Another example is Backflipper (UF+4~Tag). You might think Law could punish Asuka's f+2 with an 18 frame UF+4~Tag...but he can't! It does not reach!

Last edited by forest16 on Dec 18th, 2013 at 08:53

forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtkxT4FCNTg#t=1m09s

Here is a perfect example of why FC UF+3+4 should never be used. This is an instance where the opponent used a move that was propelling them forwards. When you used to use FC UF+3+4 like I use it in this video, it used to cross the opponent up, hitting them in the back of the head for a chunk of damage. In newer Tekkens, however, Law's FC UF+3+4 does not propel him high enough in the air to avoid incoming attacks! FC UF+3+4 is useless junk!
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
I am pretty sure that Law's UB+4 used to knock down. I used to use UB+4 quite a bit because of that. It also seemed to hit people out of standing jabs. Now, standing jabs will float Law for a full combo and death.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
Standing basic 1

Laws have to have the worst standing basic 1 in the game. I often think I might have gotten uf+1, Blackout, because of how similar Law's basic 1 looks to his uf+1. Law seems to want to punch the sky!

In combos, the upward arc of the jab seems to give Law's jabs less range and a higher hitbox, more likely to have them miss. Dash jab combos are just that much harder as a result.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3808
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
2,f+2

I got the second hit of 2,f+2 reversed! I thought it was a true elbow!


UF+4 lacking in range, damage

The damage difference in-between Law's UF+4, WS+4, f+2, f,f+4,3 etc. cobo and his df+2, 4,u+3, f,f+4,3 combo is only 6 points, damn, Law's UF+4 is not worth the risk. No range, either, and 18f, so slow. Considering the speed of UF+4, you would think it would have better reward as well as range.


f+3+4 VS f+1+2

I often debate as to why Law even needed f+3+4. If Namco had just made Law's f+1+2 hit grounded opponents, they could have never given Law f+3+4 and it would have been fine. f+3+4 is slower and worse on block than f+1+2, and f,f+3+4 makes Law do his f,f+3+4 throw, further limiting f+3+4's usefulness.

If Namco decided to completely take out his new f+3+4, I would not miss it much.


df+3+4

Law df+3+4 is 13 points, so like a d+4 with any other character in terms of damage! Launch punishable! It does nothing on CH!


b+1,2,1
I find I never use this at high level cause the tracking is non-exhistent on it and it's somewhat slow at 16 frames. Since it is so slow, maybe it would be nive to give it lots more range in the next game, if it was the same way...but, I think I would rather Marshall Law's 14 frame b+1,2,2 than this slow move that I never use with no tracking and limited range. The second hit being -13 does not help much either, or how Forest has no DSS stance.


df+1's hitbox

I used a df+1 VS an opponent who sidestepped right, towards Law's left one time, and the df+1 did not hit. This was a big surprise to me even though I already knew Law's df+1 SUCKS because Law's hand was INSIDE THEIR BODY with the df+1 and it still did not hit.

Last edited by forest16 on Aug 8th, 2014 at 23:21

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