Testing input frame data with 2P PStick

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Libertine
Lone Wolf
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 317
From: USA New Jersey
#41 “Quote” Edit Post
Sorry, I looked through this thread for that too quickly.

Still, I get JFSR much more consistently from RFF than LFF, so that is rather unusual.
insomnotek
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5555
#42 “Quote” Edit Post
drags reversal attack is b+3+4. looks like he steps forward and then kicks in a circle in front of him. it parries punches

his manual low parry is d/f+1+2. looks like the old school TTT manual low parries. he shifts into an attack throw on successful parries and has a unique animation for punches and kicks.


if you can, please test asukas sabaki moves as well.

d/f+1+2 - low parry that shifts into 2 mid hits. on successful parries, it knocks back like a deathfist. if it just hits without the parry, then it causes a crumple stun.

2+3 - mid/high punch parry into a high kick.

and if it isnt asking too much, the reversal windows on asukas short counter b+1+3 and on her long counter, B+1+3.

thanks a ton for the work, this stuff is crazy interesting.

Last edited by insomnotek on Dec 1st, 2009 at 07:34

lol im bad
Kyu
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
From: United States
#43 “Quote” Edit Post
following up on the above request might you be so kind as to test these cases:

startup/active frames on law's b+1+3. (dss autoparry is also interesting but I imagine it's a bit trickier to test, especially dfs->dss)
ditto for jin's parry.
timing window for ws moves off mishima crouch dash (when would I get wgf vs. ws+2 vs. stand 2, etc.)
chreddy handstand throw startup
law dss1+2 autoblock window if you don't mind testing trivial shit. should eat through the same things manual parry does.
TheDinosaur
Hurm
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5804
From: United Kingdom
XBL: Archelon
#44 “Quote” Edit Post
many thanks for testing noodalls

how fast can Craig do moves from VTS if he does it instantly, and how does it compare to the amount of frames required to perform the same moves manually?

ie

3+4,4 vs iWS+4
3+4,df+1+2 vs DF~1+2

and suchlike?
Signature Say NO to shoulder buttons!

Bloody Elbow: The MMA website I write for. It is the best MMA website.
Spoofer
2nd Dan
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26
From: USA New York
#45 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
The input is f,F+1 not f,f+1

Pet peeve. If you look at a lot of the japanese guides, you will notice that they specifically write f,F+button, not f,f+button. This is because it is the correct notation.

If you press f on F1 and release on F2, then press f+1 on F3, it will give f+1.
If you press f on F1, release on F2, press f on F3 and release on F4 and press 1 on F4, you will get standing 1.
If you press f on F1, release on F2, press f on F3, press 1 on F4 and release f+1 on F5, you get f,F+1. e.g. J6's B! move.

For what it's worth, you can press f on F1, release on F2, then hold F from F3-34 and press 1 on F33 to get f,F+1. If F on F33 you get standing 1.


This got me thinking about how and why I suck at CD forward dash Stonehead'ing with Kazuya (f,N,d,d/f,f N F+1+2). I used to be very good at it...

I'll keep this as brief as possible:

With Command History up, if I do f,N,d,d/f,f N~NNN F+1+2, CD to Stonehead works fine.
But... I think I'm too fast at entering the CD input normally? Command History prints my usual speed at f,d,d/f, without the "N" (basically if I EWGF'd out of it it would be listing it as a 13f non-Mist Step EWGF, which can't actually be right...). Doing it at this speed works fine for TGF, (E)WGF, HS, forward dash/back iWS cancelling. It works for CD forward dashing into Stonehead too as long as I do it immediately. But, this CD can no longer be delayed into Stonehead within the same timeframe as CDing with the "N" listed in History. f,F+2 always comes out instead. Wth is this? I have to input the actual CD command slower just to be able to cancel into Stonehead? Not even the speed of the CD itself, just the speed at which I'm hitting "f" and then "d". I don't quite get it, especially since f,F+2 is a similar double-dash maneuver...

And, btw, I was using the R1 button assigned to 1+2 just to rule out the possibility of my index finger being gimp on the Left Punch. =/ (for testing. I play on a stick so normally there's no reason for "shoulder button" assignments)

Am I missing something, aside from skill? >,>

Last edited by Spoofer on Dec 2nd, 2009 at 02:23

noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#46 “Quote” Edit Post
Drag Reversal b+3+4
Vulnerable F1-6. Parries F7-15. Vulnerable F16-27. Hits F28.

Drag df+1+2 versus low jabs.
F1-4 vulnerable. F5-15 reverses. F16-25 vulnerable. F26 recovered.

Asuka df+1+2
F1-6 vulnerable. F7-15 parries. F16-17 d+1 will whiff, but recover in time to block. F18-29 d+1 will whiff and get punished. F30-41 d+1 hits Asuka. F42 double hit.

Asuka 2+3
Vulnerable F1-6. Parry F7-15. Vulnerable F16-27. F28 DH.

Asuka b+1+3 for 1F
F1-2 vulnerable. F3-12 reversal. F13-45 vulnerable. F46 blocks.
b+3+4 held for 70F (should be long enough)
F1-2 vulnerable. F3-52 reversal. F55-89 recovery. F90 blocks.

Jin Parry
F1 blocks. F2-8 Parry
. F9-18 blocks. F19-30 gets hit. F31 blocks.

Law b+1+3 parry
F1 vulnerable. F2-11 parries. F12-35 vulnerable. F36 blocks.


Paul reversal
F1-2 vulnerable. F3-8 reverses. F9-35 vulnerable. F36 blocks.

EWGF
f,N,d,df (df on F4, i.e. 1F for each input). 2 on F4 gives EWGF. 2 on F5-22 gives WGF. 2 on F23 gives shitfish. 2 on F24-28 gives ws+2. 2 on F29 onwards gives standing2.

CD on F1-4 then b on F11 and 2 on F12 gives ws+2. Can't seem to get it earlier. Doing it earlier gives standing 2. b+2 gives wgf. Any more than a frame between releasing the b on F11 and pressing means it gives standing 2. b on F12 you can press 2 on F13 or 14 to get ws+2, f13-->14-16, F14 doesn't seem to allow ws+2.

CD~ws+2 CD~ws+2 is a combo. 2 hits 30 dmg.

Eddy's HSP throw I did in the eddy forum.

That's enough for one day. See you all next time.
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#47 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by TheDinosaur
many thanks for testing noodalls

how fast can Craig do moves from VTS if he does it instantly, and how does it compare to the amount of frames required to perform the same moves manually?

ie

3+4,4 vs iWS+4
3+4,df+1+2 vs DF~1+2

and suchlike?


Marduk
F1 VTS and 4 on F3 hits on F19. Same for 4 pressed on F3-7. On F8 the VTS 4 is blockable on F20.

Fastest ws+4 I could do is D on F1-6, release on F7 and press 4. This is blockable on F19.

DF~1+2 fastest input after holding DF for 7 frames. Hits on F29 and 30.

VTS df+1+2 fastest input is df on F2-3 and 1+2 on F3. Hits on F25 and 26.

Last edited by noodalls on Dec 10th, 2009 at 12:47

Pzikoo
Sage
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 453
From: Sweden
PSN: MBOLIBOMBO
#48 “Quote” Edit Post
I am interested in Marduks f,f+1+2 and Wangs Waning Moon throw. How big the break window is. Because what I have read this far it seems like all throws have a 15 frame break window, is that correct?

Also, it would be nice if you could check Devil Jins EoD throw in DR

Oh, I don't know if you are able to look this one thing up. But after you connect a Waning Moon, how many frames is it that your opponent can't move compared to you? (Otherwise one could just capture it in 60 fps with hit analysis on and see for oneself)

That info would be really nice ~~

/ JFK
Signature No thanks.
lol im bad
Kyu
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
From: United States
#49 “Quote” Edit Post
very gs

guess I really do need to practice that cd ws huh. never got cd,b+2 to come out in the tag days either
insomnotek
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5555
#50 “Quote” Edit Post
again, thanks for the info. youre pumping out some really good data.


asuka having a little longer vulnerability frames after her reversal is pretty lame, but i guess it comes with having a 49 frame long window of opportunity!
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#51 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Pzikoo
I am interested in Marduks f,f+1+2 and Wangs Waning Moon throw. How big the break window is. Because what I have read this far it seems like all throws have a 15 frame break window, is that correct?

Also, it would be nice if you could check Devil Jins EoD throw in DR

Oh, I don't know if you are able to look this one thing up. But after you connect a Waning Moon, how many frames is it that your opponent can't move compared to you? (Otherwise one could just capture it in 60 fps with hit analysis on and see for oneself)

That info would be really nice ~~

/ JFK


Marduk f,F+1+2
i12 Break 14-28

Wang WM
i12 Break 14-28
On break Wang recovers F113 opponent F111 (Wang -2)
On throw Wang recovers F139 opponent F178 (Wang +39)

DJ EOD T6
i12 Break 14-28

DJ EOD T5DR
i10 Break 12-26
Pzikoo
Sage
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 453
From: Sweden
PSN: MBOLIBOMBO
#52 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
Marduk f,F+1+2
i12 Break 14-28

Wang WM
i12 Break 14-28
On break Wang recovers F113 opponent F111 (Wang -2)
On throw Wang recovers F139 opponent F178 (Wang +39)

DJ EOD T6
i12 Break 14-28

DJ EOD T5DR
i10 Break 12-26


Thank you so much for looking those things up, I am greatful.

Looks like all my bitching and whining about EoD in DR was not called upon. Seems like all throws, no matter which one, has a 15 frame break window.

Thanks again!

/ JFK
Signature No thanks.
Shinjin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2867
From: England
#53 “Quote” Edit Post
noodall man, i have had a thought about pauls d/f+2, could you try doing d/f then the 2 button as late as possible (i'm guessing 3 - 5 frames) and seeing if that has any effect on it crushing high attacks.

good luck and godspeed, seacrest out.
Signature Bruck him for souf east, blud

look man the move doesnt track sidestep, but if you sidestep it will hit you
steves b+1 isint safe because it only auto guards high and mid, but you can cancel it and block all lows
Jaycees u/f+4,3 is launch punishable on block but if you try to punish it the 1 follow-up will hit you
noodalls
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#54 “Quote” Edit Post
Posted this in tech, but figures it deserves a post here as well (having seen what some people believe deserves a whole thread in the forum, I don't think you can really criticise the repost).

I've read some comments about T6 being more laggy in responding to inputs than previous games. I had assumed that this was more to do with people now playing on HDTVs and not being used to the additional lag that this provides. In any event, I went and tested how my two televisions compared.

SDTV Samsung 34cm. Ye old Faithful

SONY LCD 40 Inch. The new kid.

I should mention that my PS3 is PAL, and so that normally messes things up. It may be displaying at 50fps, despite internally running at 60.


I put together a quick arduino sketch and made it so that when the square button on my Hori Fighting Stick 3 is pressed an LCD comes on. I used 3 different games, SCIV, SF4 and T6, each with what were meant to be 10F attacks (note, E.Honda's standing far HP is meant to be 10, but from the * below, I think it can be slower than that at range.)
Then I recorded it with my camera which can do 60 images in 1 second, and used this as the basis to count frames and work out response times.



The results were

SC4 SD 7 17 http://yfrog.com/1280197861jx
Sc4 HD 9 18 http://yfrog.com/jd23817497jx

SF4 SD 6 17 http://yfrog.com/jm38497693jx
SF4 HD 10 23* http://yfrog.com/jm84467168jx

T5DR SD 8** 16 http://yfrog.com/3u89282068jx
T5DR HD 10 18 http://yfrog.com/3d88572403jx

T6 SD 5 16 http://yfrog.com/3u63880539jx
T6 HD 9 19 http://yfrog.com/jm37024528jx

The first number refers to the frame on which the TV acknowledged an input. The second number refers to when the attack hits. Note, you can look at the pictures.

T6 and SC4 appear to display the onscreen message before/as the attack starts. SF4 seems to display inputs a frame or two later.
** had to use hit analysis for this, which appears to start a frame or two later (probably to allow for slide inputs).
Digital Foundry looked into this a while ago. Their entirely more competent article can be found at. The only thing is that they don't have anything for t6.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...-article?page=3
Shinjin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2867
From: England
#55 “Quote” Edit Post
You wanna hear something even cooler then that?, not only is there lag but on certain TV's it fluctuates between numbers,

Theres a prog out there thats just a timer which goes all the way down from 1 hour to 1 ms, you run it from a comp or laptop to your screen and 1 to your TV, place them side by side then just take a picture with a digicam that has a semi fast exposure time, compare the two times on each screen, on the one i play on it can be any number between 5 ms and 30ms randomly.

what does this teach us?, CRT for the win. and that it's not just the game that lags.
Signature Bruck him for souf east, blud

look man the move doesnt track sidestep, but if you sidestep it will hit you
steves b+1 isint safe because it only auto guards high and mid, but you can cancel it and block all lows
Jaycees u/f+4,3 is launch punishable on block but if you try to punish it the 1 follow-up will hit you
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#56 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Shinjin
noodall man, i have had a thought about pauls d/f+2, could you try doing d/f then the 2 button as late as possible (i'm guessing 3 - 5 frames) and seeing if that has any effect on it crushing high attacks.

good luck and godspeed, seacrest out.


It doesn't appear to.

Slowest you can do it is DF held from F1 and 2 on F6. Holding it until F7-11 and pressing 2 on F7-11 gives d+2. Holding it until F12 onwards gives FC,df+2.

For jabs crushed on FX the following occur (DF held until F6 and 2 on F6.)
F1 FC,df+2
F2-5 FC+2
F6 onwards gets hit.

Note, for holding down DF for less than the maximum you only get d+2, no FC,df+2.
Holding down DF also delays the execution of the move

It's something I'd seen before, where people stated a CD could be used to crush jabs and also EWGF, and I found there was only 1 overlap of inputs that would allow this, every other time d+2 would come out. I think the system is happy for the direcitonal input to result in a crush, but once you've done that, you're not also getting your standing move as well.
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#57 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Shinjin
what does this teach us?, CRT for the win. and that it's not just the game that lags.


The post was more to show that T6 seems to have about as much input lag as any other game out there. People always seem to want to think that the latest Tekken is slower/faster than the last one. Looks to me exactly the same. People can link to the post as proof.

Also, it might be a way to working out does the move start animating on the frame the input is received or the frame after, does a ten frame move take ten frames including the input, or ten frames after the input (always wanted to know, not convinced anyone can prove it one way or the other).

And I wanted more posts in this thread than the FKing 10hits versus juggle combos thread.
Pixel
Xiaoyu & Raven
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1712
From: USA Georgia
PSN: NinthPixel
#58 “Quote” Edit Post
If you get time will you test the frames that it takes Xiaoyu to get into AOP (fully recovered and ready to do an AOP move)? I feel getting into AOP has gotten slower in T6, but I have no way of testing without command capture. These are the numbers I got in T5DR.

T5DR Xiaoyu AOP
AOP from standing - d+1+2
F12

AOP from crouch - FC d+1+2
F10

AOP from Raindance - RDS d+1+2
F16
Signature I play on a Hit Box ( http://hitboxarcade.com )
I may be garbage, but I am the leakiest garbage you will ever take out to the dumpster.
noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#59 “Quote” Edit Post
AOP
d+1+2
Accepts commands from F11.
d+1+2 AOP 1 on f11 hits on F34, same for input 1 on F11-16. 1 on F17 hits F35 etc.
AOP 1 is i18 (inatekken and checked by me).

FC AOP accepts inputs from F6 (i.e. buffer 6-11, F11 is the last frame of the buffer.)

Raindance AOP
F16-21.

Last edited by noodalls on Dec 9th, 2009 at 10:41

noodalls
Moderator
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2404
From: Australia
PSN: noodalls
#60 “Quote” Edit Post
Also.

AOP avoids jabs from F1.
AOP ducks under Hei 1+2 from F8.

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