Michelle Change movelist and frame data.

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2,1
Deity
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 689
From: Philippines
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
please post her move list and frame data here.
Signature All new characters should follow the Katarina template.
RK2
Kyu
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Does anyone know the frames on Michelle's ss2? Its safe on block. I'm more interested in the hit and ch frames.
IRON LOBSTER
Orlando BOOM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3031
From: Canada
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
i20+, +3 on NH will test the CH frames soon. Tech crouches/recovers crouch too.
Signature A split second is only 30 frames.
RK2
Kyu
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
cheers. is ss2 a high crush? it seems really useful for creating FC mix-ups in the open. Is there a full list of her frames? I still haven't found any use for df 3+4, does it just suck?
IRON LOBSTER
Orlando BOOM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3031
From: Canada
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
df3+4 high crushes really well and it's taggable but it's slower than i23 and -19 on block. Julia's T6 df3+4 would have been so much better for combos.

ss2 would have been better as a low and it's slower than i15 so I haven't really found a use for it - A Chang? Using a slow move? PSHAW!

But that's just me...
Signature A split second is only 30 frames.
Benchkw
Kyu
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 6
From: USA Massachusetts
XBL: Skroozle
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Is there ever a reason to use d/f+3+4 over qcf+2? Both high crush and are taggable, but qcf+2 is a lot faster and safe on block.

I think in TTT1 ws+4 was guaranteed if ss+2 hit, but I'm pretty sure they changed that.
AlastorTGN
1st Dan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm getting confused with the frame from here http://rbnorway.org/michelle-ttt2-frames/. Basically, is a Shotgun -> Wind Roll safe or not?

Shotgun is up as a staggering -6 on block. but it's got the Wind Roll (3 or 4 followup) as -8 and +2 after the stance ends, so I get that after she's rolled round and stops they will get out of block stun 2 frames before you, but where is this -8 coming from?
DYNA$TY
Deity
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 695
From: USA New Jersey
PSN: Akushitsu
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
empty d,d/f+1~3_4 is -8
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AlastorTGN
1st Dan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
#9 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by DYNA$TY
empty d,d/f+1~3_4 is -8


You mean if I do Shotgun, blocked and roll but none of the followups it's -8? If so, I can't seem to find the frame data for the followup attacks (2, 4~1+2, 3~1+2*...).

Sorry if I'm being stupid but this is the first time I've bothered to look at frame data in a fighting game, seems like it'd be good to know in Tekken, it's actually quite fascinating.

*If the opponent knows the only followup to d, df 1~3 3 is 1+2, why would I ever use this, I'm guessing you're using MA whenever they're waiting for it, but they could always wait AND break MA anyway couldn't they?
jaguar94
Virtuoso
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 228
From: Mexico
#10 “Quote” Edit Post
there might be some slight changes from T6 but anyways, here you can find the frame data for the Evasing Spin follow-ups

d,d/f+1~3_4,3,1+2 is hardly used by the way, it's slow and easily launch punishable
Signature Can't break 'em all! // SoccerEvoFC
AlastorTGN
1st Dan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks man, but I think in the JC thread somewhere I remember reading the Wind Roll got a 'terrible nerf' or something like that, I don't doubt that Michelle's frames are the exact same.

Or to answer it another way, sometimes I see Jaycee get away with Shotgun -> Wind Roll and other times I'm sure I've seen her get hit out of the roll, if she can get hit out of the roll why wouldn't people do it all the time ever? (That is assuming I saw what I thought I saw)

And that string you and I are talking about, it seems so linear that I wasn't sure if it was just bad or if I was missing something, come to think of it, you can follow up uf 4,3 with the punch to I presume catch a punish attempt with a CH, but if they know she can do that then wouldn't they also just wait for that, assuming again the move isn't designed for you to setup a throw in some split second hesitation period?
Liquid
War Lord
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 727
From: Greece
#12 “Quote” Edit Post
shotgun spin on block into any move(canned or not) is interruptible
shotgun spin and no move u can block anything your opp throws at u

btw shotgun spin 3,1+2 is a useless move
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IRON LOBSTER
Orlando BOOM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3031
From: Canada
#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Shotgun on block, spin 1 will beat i13 moves upwards, it will CH Steve CH b1 attempts.

Shotgun on hit, spin 1 will beat jabs.

Shotgun on block, 3 spin on block can be Flash punished by Yoshi but not 4 spin.

Spin 1 is high crouch jabs/TC moves will beat it.
Signature A split second is only 30 frames.
AlastorTGN
1st Dan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
#14 “Quote” Edit Post
[quote=Liquid]shotgun spin on block into any move(canned or not) is interruptible shotgun spin and no move u can block anything your opp throws at u btw shotgun spin 3,1+2 is a useless move [/quote]

I figured as much, it's because she can do better mids out of the roll isn't it? That and the move itself seems to just trap you, you hit with 3, blocked, you hit with the followup 1+2, screwed.

Shotgun on block, spin 1 will beat i13 moves upwards, it will CH Steve CH b1 attempts. Shotgun on hit, spin 1 will beat jabs. Shotgun on block, 3 spin on block can be Flash punished by Yoshi but not 4 spin. Spin 1 is high crouch jabs/TC moves will beat it.


*whistles*

Too bad I suck at mind games and execution, I've tried the sweep out of it and it got blocked every time, to the point I'm worried it's seeable, meanwhile I'm getting slammed hard by Miguel's db1 and Leo's (superior?) sweep into shoulder barge, frustrating.
DYNA$TY
Deity
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 695
From: USA New Jersey
PSN: Akushitsu
#15 “Quote” Edit Post
If they're blocking the sweep then d,d/f+1~4_3, d/f+1 OC f,f+3, f+2+3 to keep them honest. After getting hit w/ that a couple times they'll stand and you can do empty spin to mad axes_spin 4,1+2.
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Vandy2
Expert
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 138
PSN: VandyKiT
#16 “Quote” Edit Post
The problem with shotgun spin mixups is there is no great mid option naturally out of the string. If you are stopping the string to go into another move like df1 you have to either do it from -8 on block or -2 on hit. Elite defenders can guard low then recover to block the mid. It is still a great move though, at worst it is a safe advancing pressure tool that forces your opponent into action.
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AlastorTGN
1st Dan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
#17 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Vandy2
The problem with shotgun spin mixups is there is no great mid option naturally out of the string. If you are stopping the string to go into another move like df1 you have to either do it from -8 on block or -2 on hit. Elite defenders can guard low then recover to block the mid. It is still a great move though, at worst it is a safe advancing pressure tool that forces your opponent into action.


Excatly what I was going to come in to ask about, there are two mids out of it, the lunging punch and the knee, knee is useless and the punch looks like it's seeable on reaction?

I feel I'm misusing the Shotgun somewhat, I do fine getting the initial hit in, blocked or not but I hardly ever connect a low or mid out of it, I can buffer MA during it but I keep choking and not using it.
Vandy2
Expert
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 138
PSN: VandyKiT
#18 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by AlastorTGN
Excatly what I was going to come in to ask about, there are two mids out of it, the lunging punch and the knee, knee is useless and the punch looks like it's seeable on reaction?

I feel I'm misusing the Shotgun somewhat, I do fine getting the initial hit in, blocked or not but I hardly ever connect a low or mid out of it, I can buffer MA during it but I keep choking and not using it.


The mids out of spin are not seeable - they just arent great. Spin, 1+2 gives the same move as b+1, a move that should really only be used in combos. Out in the open it is unsafe at at least -10. It does give a guaranteed ff2 on CH though.

Spin 3, 1+2 works wonders on people who have never seen it though lol, which is most people since it is never used.
Signature www.kitrevival.com
AlastorTGN
1st Dan
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
#19 “Quote” Edit Post
But that only leaves the Shotgun, 2 Mid and though you say it isn't seeable, isn't it slower to come out then the 4 low sweep, so they can just block low for a fraction of a second before confirming Michelle ain't going low?

I don't know how to describe it, maybe not seeing the move but measuring the interval between moves?

I'm feeling this was about a lot of moves but I may be getting paranoid, like d44 or switching up into d41 for a mid launch, I feel like the 1 was seeable purely because of the absence of a second low kick so I dunno if that is actually any good?

As I see (so far, not used her that long relatively speaking) these are some of her mixups worth using.

The CES express as they call it, including every possible outcome including MA and those df throws. (in fact, probably better to list the enders NOT to use, like 3 1+2)

(For the non shotgun stuff)
11 into 4 or 2.
d44 or d42, 444, 4 d4 2.

Not exactly mixups but 4 (2) ~1 obviously, even I'm not nooby enough to not realise this move is good, 1211...if it's recognised after the first time I don't think people will ever fall for it again?

How off the mark is this so far?

I hear she's supposed to be a conditioning character which worries me, I feel a calm player will never dance to the tune of whatever panic you try to inflict and just react to everything somehow.
IRON LOBSTER
Orlando BOOM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3031
From: Canada
#20 “Quote” Edit Post
The trick to mastering Changs is actually not doing much. Because their +frames on hit are pretty bad and KND/launch options are generally unsafe you need to dedicate more time to spacing and CH baiting once you start playing better players who can step/poke or punish you out of your options or mashers who'll get lucky.

eg. CES Express...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGbUOlTLzqk


Ok I'm back...

Do stuff like shotgun~empty spin (d,df1~3_4) then wait or bd just to see what your opponent is going to do. If they push buttons then punish or step what they do next what they do next.

Now if you know they're going to push a button, next time do shotgun and delay the 2 (d,df1>2) and get a CH KND/w! as the delay will trick them into pre-empting a spin option and they'll eat the CH.

So now they're going to be likely to just stand there and block so you can now shotgun~empty spin, MA or another shotgun or even a canned string if you want to take the risk.

Then they'll be likely to duck so next it's shotgun~empty spin, df1 OC ff3 time.


This flow chart isn't set in stone but essentially being patient is how you'll be able to press your offense with Changs. After all going for broke straight off the bat with shotgun~4,1+2 and getting launch punished for it can lose you up to half a bar with no walls involved.

TL; DR Version.

Use empty spins off shotgun first to see what your opponent is going to do before you start enforcing mixups.
Signature A split second is only 30 frames.

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