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dodecadozen
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1701
#101 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by enko
But i am pretty sure i am older than you with your absurd/ridiculous idea. I guess i should be more diplomatic cause i am hurting your feelings now.


^^
You hit me right in my feelings with your teenage Pakistani fanboy babble due to your inablility to read properly. Thanks for being considerate at least now.
Signature Bring back [kunimitsu] for T7!
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#102 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by dodecadozen
^^
You hit me right in my feelings with your teenage Pakistani fanboy babble due to your inablility to read properly. Thanks for being considerate at least now.


i guess you did not get the memo that i want arslan to lose at rev majors. this is just with your brilliant idea that i usually see from kids.

Originally posted by dodecadozen
But yeah, Knee didn't want to win.




You have a brilliant idea thinking that knee does not want to win against Pakistani players. But he wants to win against japanese, european, other asian countries and NA. So knee going 0-6 at tournaments against Pakistani and losing Evo to Arslan is just a fluke cause knee does not want to win.. Kudos for discovering that and the many downvotes that you get at reddit is them not understanding you.
wrazor
Champion
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 273
#103 “Quote” Edit Post
Dear enko, you are not coming in good light in all of this. Please try and understand what somebody says and more importantly why they say it.

Firstly, why did you want arsalan to lose at rev majors? Is it because you hate arsalan(we are going by your logic).

All dode said was knee wasnt as keen to win as he would be playing at evo or twt whereas the pakistanis were at their first major international tourney. Surely they will want to win it more than knee? Does that make sense to you?

To make it more clear to you, the want to win of pakistani players compared to knee in a small event like this makes knees will negligible. Which country are you from BTW and who is your favourite player?


You have a brilliant idea thinking that knee does not want to win against Pakistani players. But he wants to win against japanese, european, other asian countries and NA.


When will you accept that pakistani players were using a different meta than what knee had ever faced and seen whereas they had the chance to completely lab knee. This does not apply to other players from countries which knee is facing.

It's like relearning a new playstyle to accommodate a new set of players. Is knee motivated enough for that? We will have to see.

So knee going 0-6 at tournaments against Pakistani and losing Evo to Arslan is just a fluke cause knee does not want to win.

Everybody here already agrees arsalan is a beast. So was jdcr 2 years ago. Knee conquered him. Is knee hungry enough to do it once more? That is the question. Please do not try putting and twisting words in other's mouths.
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#104 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by wrazor


It's like relearning a new playstyle to accommodate a new set of players. Is knee motivated enough for that? We will have to see.

Everybody here already agrees arsalan is a beast. So was jdcr 2 years ago. Knee conquered him. Is knee hungry enough to do it once more? That is the question. Please do not try putting and twisting words in other's mouths.


It is actually geese(knee uses him against jdcr) that conquered jdcr's ak as jdcr's ak is losing against geese users. early this year jdcr's ak has beaten knee's steve and dvj.

knee is craving to play against pakistani players and want to train at pakistan. so that answer your question if he is hungry.

i am not twisting words. i even quoted him.

what i only pointed early is that him telling that knee does not want to win is absurd. that is all.

arslan has played knee plenty of times now. so him being a new meta for knee is not applicable. jimmy j, boaluv, chanel, nobi and ulsan has beaten arslan even though he is a new meta for them.
dodecadozen
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1701
#105 “Quote” Edit Post
@enko:

Originally posted by dodecadozen
I'm not making excuses for Knee. I don't gain anything by it. Read all my posts fully. I'm speculating based on what I saw.

Quoting my own post again for the benefit of idiots who can't read properly.

You don't seem to read my posts, but you want me to take YOUR words at face value? Toss off to reddit, Paki fanboy. I'm sure you'll get 100 upvotes for sucking up to your Pakistani idols there.

On top of that, Arslan was not even in question here. We were talking about Knee vs Awais. Reading and replying to shit inside your head doesn't make you right. Makes you an idiot who can't read well. Now, why would you try to browbeat some random guy on some corner-of-the-internet talkboards for saying Knee didn't want to win against Awais? I guess because THAT hit you right in your Paki fanboy feelings, eh?
Signature Bring back [kunimitsu] for T7!
SSfox
Foxstepman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3310
#106 “Quote” Edit Post
It was just too obvious for me that Knee wasn't trying hard and his best to win in that Malaysia Dojo, and it was more of an opportunity for him to test some characters like Craig and Kaz that he don't usually use much in tournaments.

Now sure it's totally possible that Knee would have also lost even if he tried all his best and picked his best characters VS Awais. But you can't denie it's a fact he didn't explore other options that realistically would be more on his favor to win the set, picking Steve or geese aka his best characters, or also Bryan like he did when he faced Rickstah. If this was an Evo, TWT or some Master where Knee would need badly those points, you really think he would stick with Marduk only the whole winners set? and then stick with Kaz the whole second set? I personally highly doubt.

And about Arslan i don't even know why it's a topic, unless i missed something everyone literally agree that he's undoubtedly the best in world right now.
Chinky-Eye
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1661
#107 “Quote” Edit Post
Don't mind me...just my 2 cents.

I have to take Enko's side in this debate, although I do agree he's probably Pakistani LOL.

Knee is beloved by the Tekken community, and until Pakistan and Peru reared their ugly heads, he was considered undisputed best in the world for at least the past year.

Whether you're speculating or making excuses, the basic premise you're putting out there is that Knee is holding back somehow because the Malaysia tourney was not as important, which gave Knee room to experiment. Or maybe he's just a nice guy and taking his losses in stride to allow the new generation to come up.

That is absolutely absurd.

If you're a competitive player, you would NEVER EVER have this mentality. You couldn't ever adopt this mentality and become the best at anything. Knee played his absolute hardest, which included counter-picking, and came up short against superior skills that he had never encountered before. I think the "getting old" explanation makes a lot more sense. But to say that Knee was not 100% intent on winning is just disrespectful to Arslan and Awais. It's also disrespectful to Knee.

You have to consider that Knee's ego is at stake. Being the best makes one incredibly insecure. The story now is that there is a new #1 in town, and that Knee has to step aside. This puts incredible pressure on him. Did you see his demeanor at EVO? I've never seen Knee rattled like that, sweating profusely and exaggerating his reactions. It was not because he was at EVO, but because his entire legacy and reputation was at stake.

Knee has a huge streaming community, which is his primary source of income. Every big loss he takes hurts his brand, and you know that it will hurt him in the pocketbook eventually. He's not going to let ANYTHING slide if that is what's at stake. When he picks side characters, he is doing so because he thinks it will give him an advantage. It's a premeditated strategy, not experimentation. Experimenting in a grand finals is about the dumbest thing you could ever do, regardless of how big or small the tourney is. There is much more than prize money at stake.

Personally, I think Peru and Pakistan finally getting their due is about the best thing that could have ever happened to Tekken. It shows that there is new blood out there, and new talent that can rise up and take out the old guard. You can bet your ass, however, that the old guard will do everything in their power to prevent that from happening. It will definitely be an interesting year.
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#108 “Quote” Edit Post
Easy and don't cry just because i pointed how idiotic you are with this.

Originally posted by dodecadozen
@enko:


But yeah, Knee didn't want to win.
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#109 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Chinky-Eye
Don't mind me...just my 2 cents.

I have to take Enko's side in this debate, although I do agree he's probably Pakistani LOL.

Knee is beloved by the Tekken community, and until Pakistan and Peru reared their ugly heads, he was considered undisputed best in the world for at least the past year.

Whether you're speculating or making excuses, the basic premise you're putting out there is that Knee is holding back somehow because the Malaysia tourney was not as important, which gave Knee room to experiment. Or maybe he's just a nice guy and taking his losses in stride to allow the new generation to come up.

That is absolutely absurd.

If you're a competitive player, you would NEVER EVER have this mentality. You couldn't ever adopt this mentality and become the best at anything. Knee played his absolute hardest, which included counter-picking, and came up short against superior skills that he had never encountered before. I think the "getting old" explanation makes a lot more sense. But to say that Knee was not 100% intent on winning is just disrespectful to Arslan and Awais. It's also disrespectful to Knee.

You have to consider that Knee's ego is at stake. Being the best makes one incredibly insecure. The story now is that there is a new #1 in town, and that Knee has to step aside. This puts incredible pressure on him. Did you see his demeanor at EVO? I've never seen Knee rattled like that, sweating profusely and exaggerating his reactions. It was not because he was at EVO, but because his entire legacy and reputation was at stake.

Knee has a huge streaming community, which is his primary source of income. Every big loss he takes hurts his brand, and you know that it will hurt him in the pocketbook eventually. He's not going to let ANYTHING slide if that is what's at stake. When he picks side characters, he is doing so because he thinks it will give him an advantage. It's a premeditated strategy, not experimentation. Experimenting in a grand finals is about the dumbest thing you could ever do, regardless of how big or small the tourney is. There is much more than prize money at stake.

Personally, I think Peru and Pakistan finally getting their due is about the best thing that could have ever happened to Tekken. It shows that there is new blood out there, and new talent that can rise up and take out the old guard. You can bet your ass, however, that the old guard will do everything in their power to prevent that from happening. It will definitely be an interesting year.


Exactly. Well said. I am from Philippines and I want Filipino players to beat Arslan and other top Pakistani players at Rev Majors(a gigantic task at the moment).
wrazor
Champion
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 273
#110 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Chinky-Eye
Don't mind me...just my 2 cents.


If you're a competitive player, you would NEVER EVER have this mentality. You couldn't ever adopt this mentality and become the best at anything. Knee played his absolute hardest, which included counter-picking, and came up short against superior skills that he had never encountered before. I think the "getting old" explanation makes a lot more sense. But to say that Knee was not 100% intent on winning is just disrespectful to Arslan and Awais. It's also disrespectful to Knee.

You have to consider that Knee's ego is at stake. Being the best makes one incredibly insecure. The story now is that there is a new #1 in town, and that Knee has to step aside. This puts incredible pressure on him. Did you see his demeanor at EVO? I've never seen Knee rattled like that, sweating profusely and exaggerating his reactions. It was not because he was at EVO, but because his entire legacy and reputation was at stake.

Knee has a huge streaming community, which is his primary source of income. Every big loss he takes hurts his brand, and you know that it will hurt him in the pocketbook eventually. He's not going to let ANYTHING slide if that is what's at stake. When he picks side characters, he is doing so because he thinks it will give him an advantage. It's a premeditated strategy, not experimentation. Experimenting in a grand finals is about the dumbest thing you could ever do, regardless of how big or small the tourney is. There is much more than prize money at stake.

Personally, I think Peru and Pakistan finally getting their due is about the best thing that could have ever happened to Tekken. It shows that there is new blood out there, and new talent that can rise up and take out the old guard. You can bet your ass, however, that the old guard will do everything in their power to prevent that from happening. It will definitely be an interesting year.


This is the worst line in your response. I dont know if you ever followed or been part of any competitive sport? Like ever?

This is the record of Roger Federrer in ATP events. Events where Federrer facing a player out of top 50 players in the world and his winning percentage.

Last edited by wrazor on Aug 30th, 2019 at 07:39

wrazor
Champion
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 273
#111 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Chinky-Eye
Don't mind me...just my 2 cents.


If you're a competitive player, you would NEVER EVER have this mentality. You couldn't ever adopt this mentality and become the best at anything. Knee played his absolute hardest, which included counter-picking, and came up short against superior skills that he had never encountered before. I think the "getting old" explanation makes a lot more sense. But to say that Knee was not 100% intent on winning is just disrespectful to Arslan and Awais. It's also disrespectful to Knee.

You have to consider that Knee's ego is at stake. Being the best makes one incredibly insecure. The story now is that there is a new #1 in town, and that Knee has to step aside. This puts incredible pressure on him. Did you see his demeanor at EVO? I've never seen Knee rattled like that, sweating profusely and exaggerating his reactions. It was not because he was at EVO, but because his entire legacy and reputation was at stake.

Knee has a huge streaming community, which is his primary source of income. Every big loss he takes hurts his brand, and you know that it will hurt him in the pocketbook eventually. He's not going to let ANYTHING slide if that is what's at stake. When he picks side characters, he is doing so because he thinks it will give him an advantage. It's a premeditated strategy, not experimentation. Experimenting in a grand finals is about the dumbest thing you could ever do, regardless of how big or small the tourney is. There is much more than prize money at stake.

Personally, I think Peru and Pakistan finally getting their due is about the best thing that could have ever happened to Tekken. It shows that there is new blood out there, and new talent that can rise up and take out the old guard. You can bet your ass, however, that the old guard will do everything in their power to prevent that from happening. It will definitely be an interesting year.


This is the worst line in your response. I dont know if you ever followed or been part of any competitive sport? Like ever?

This is the record of Roger Federrer in ATP events. Events where Federrer for 500 or 250 points(it works exactly like TWT master vs challenger event)

Event Rank allowed WR
ATP Tour 500 77%
ATP Tour 250 74%


Roger federrer record when facing worse ranked players lowers his win record by upto three percent.
Let that sink in. What is the reason behind that? Yep, cannot be the fact that Roger has bigger fish to catch and this is the only chance for the outsiders to prove themselves. What an idiot is Roger with that loser attitude. He will never win anything in life.

Here is another loser Rafael for you. Bah, he will never be a winner with that attitude of losing 13% more often in tournaments with lower points at stake.
ATP Tour 500 77%
ATP Tour 250 64%

The most consistent player of recent times Novak. He will never have that attitude to drop off vs worse players in lower grade tournaments. Right?
ATP Tour 500 80%
ATP Tour 250 69%


So what does that tell you about competitive players? Every human being has limited will power. The best players keep it for the biggest occasions. The lack of understanding of human psyche from some people is baffling.

For the last time, nobody ever mentioned his loss to arsalan at evo. Arsalan legit beat everybody and took the biggest prize. We are talking about the challenger event in malaysia. Please stop conflating other events to prove a point which is not true at all. Shame on you for being dishonest in trying to prove a point.
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#112 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by SSfox
It was just too obvious for me that Knee wasn't trying hard and his best to win in that Malaysia Dojo, and it was more of an opportunity for him to test some characters like Craig and Kaz that he don't usually use much in tournaments.

Now sure it's totally possible that Knee would have also lost even if he tried all his best and picked his best characters VS Awais. But you can't denie it's a fact he didn't explore other options that realistically would be more on his favor to win the set, picking Steve or geese aka his best characters, or also Bryan like he did when he faced Rickstah. If this was an Evo, TWT or some Master where Knee would need badly those points, you really think he would stick with Marduk only the whole winners set? and then stick with Kaz the whole second set? I personally highly doubt.

And about Arslan i don't even know why it's a topic, unless i missed something everyone literally agree that he's undoubtedly the best in world right now.


knee is a counter pick player now. when knee tried lili against qudans does it mean he is not trying hard? when knee tried marduk against qudans in the richest tekken tournament at history, does it mean he is not trying hard?

Kazuya is one of knee's main and he used Kazuya against Arslan at Evo. The last time knee used Steve against a Pakistani player he got 0-6. Also Pakistani has tremendous Steve Player Heera Malik(many pakistani consider him as their best player). So knee might not be comfortable to pick Steve against Awais. After the tournament Knee did try Steve at a long set against Awais Liaqat(pakistani) and Knee lost to Liaqat's Katarina 9-18.

Geese is very popular at Pakistan and Awais has beaten Arslan's Geese so it is understandable if knee did not pick Geese. Nowadays Knee only uses Geese against JDCR.

There are many important tournaments where knee stick to that character even if he is losing. In the first set, Knee would have won the first match if he did not dropped the combo. After that Knee might have felt he can win with Marduk. but then he lost again in the second match of the first set and he might felt that it is too late now to switch and he save that for the reset. Nowadays Knee only uses Bryan against chanel or opponents he know he can beat. Knee mentioned that Bryan is hard to use at tournaments.

Knee has competitive spirit and wants to win causal matches and death matches. Knee is eager to go to Pakistan to improved. Knee is eager to play top pakistani players. So why knee won't give his best against awais? To think that Knee is not trying hard at this tournament is disrespectful to awais and Knee.

Last edited by enko on Aug 30th, 2019 at 09:01

enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#113 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by wrazor
This is the worst line in your response. I dont know if you ever followed or been part of any competitive sport? Like ever?

This is the record of Roger Federrer in ATP events. Events where Federrer for 500 or 250 points(it works exactly like TWT master vs challenger event)

Event Rank allowed WR
ATP Tour 500 77%
ATP Tour 250 74%


Roger federrer record when facing worse ranked players lowers his win record by upto three percent.
Let that sink in. What is the reason behind that? Yep, cannot be the fact that Roger has bigger fish to catch and this is the only chance for the outsiders to prove themselves. What an idiot is Roger with that loser attitude. He will never win anything in life.

Here is another loser Rafael for you. Bah, he will never be a winner with that attitude of losing 13% more often in tournaments with lower points at stake.
ATP Tour 500 77%
ATP Tour 250 64%

The most consistent player of recent times Novak. He will never have that attitude to drop off vs worse players in lower grade tournaments. Right?
ATP Tour 500 80%
ATP Tour 250 69%


So what does that tell you about competitive players? Every human being has limited will power. The best players keep it for the biggest occasions. The lack of understanding of human psyche from some people is baffling.

For the last time, nobody ever mentioned his loss to arsalan at evo. Arsalan legit beat everybody and took the biggest prize. We are talking about the challenger event in malaysia. Please stop conflating other events to prove a point which is not true at all. Shame on you for being dishonest in trying to prove a point.


Using Tennis and Roger Federer only is a small data. For example at chess magnus carlsen winning percentage increases against lower level chess players. At nba, top teams winning percentage increase against weaker teams.

One thing with top players, they all hate to lose. Heck even for casuals, they usually want to beat their friends or playing buddies.
Chinky-Eye
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1661
#114 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by wrazor
For the last time, nobody ever mentioned his loss to arsalan at evo. Arsalan legit beat everybody and took the biggest prize. We are talking about the challenger event in malaysia. Please stop conflating other events to prove a point which is not true at all. Shame on you for being dishonest in trying to prove a point.


I mentioned EVO solely to show that the pressure on Knee to maintain his reputation was real. He's played in grand finals at EVO before, and was nowhere near as nervous. The circumstances were much different this year because Knee's legacy was threatened and he had something to prove. I made no attempt to conflate the two tournaments except to the extent that Knee was trying his hardest in both because of those circumstances.

The point I am making is that Knee is playing for much more than prize money, or even winning TWT. He is playing to regain his reputation as the best player in the world. Pakistan is changing the narrative around him. After losing EVO, he had an opportunity to change that narrative by winning a grand finals in Malaysia against someone considered a top Pakistani player. Losing that match would have just added another name to the list of people he can't beat. You really think he didn't care about the outcome?

Knee flew to Malaysia and made it to grand finals against a top Pakistani player. The Tekken world was watching with great interest. I'm pretty sure he's not going to take his foot off the gas pedal.

If you know anything about competitive sports, you will know that anybody who is on top will NEVER hold back when their legacy is threatened. That's why your point about tennis players losing against worse players doesn't prove anything. Knee is not losing to worse players here. He's losing against top players. If he lost a match against some random nobody, then you might say that he wasn't trying his hardest and was simply caught off guard. You can say that because Knee's legacy would not be damaged by a fluke loss against a lesser player. That's not what's happening here.
dodecadozen
Iron Fist God
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1701
#115 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Chinky-Eye
Knee is beloved by the Tekken community, and until Pakistan and Peru reared their ugly heads, he was considered undisputed best in the world for at least the past year.

Whether you're speculating or making excuses, the basic premise you're putting out there is that Knee is holding back somehow because the Malaysia tourney was not as important, which gave Knee room to experiment. Or maybe he's just a nice guy and taking his losses in stride to allow the new generation to come up.

That is absolutely absurd.

I'm not against the idea that Knee tried his best VS Awais, and lost. But to me, that seems far from reality.

He couldn't beat Arslan because he was working with limited information on Arslan's approach, while simultaneously trying to process new information (Arslan's play patterns) and trying to counter it, and possibly dealing with the mental effects of competitive pride and psychology. I'd also consider age-related and motivational factors. Who knows. I mean why does the guy play so many different characters? I'm sure you can think about that in quite a few different ways than just a simple "counterpicker!".

You say Knee's ego won't allow him to lose. But he was already forced to swallow what you say he dreaded at the biggest event and in a big way. And in losing, he's likely found a release for all that pent up tension. I mean competitive spirit does him no good if he can't figure out why he's losing. All that experience of so many years has yielded little against this. And just more intense practice in his usual ways may not necessarily be the answer to beating Pakistan, or even if that's what he wants to do.

After Knee lost at EVO, there was that interview where he confessed that Pakistan's style of playing tekken was difficult to process, and that consequently, he understood new ways of looking at the game (paraphrasing from memory). He seemed happy about it as if having made a discovery, even thanking Arslan, the usurper. That's not a sign of insecurity or a jealous ego. Seems to me like a guy who values the experience of playing the game more than the name and fame.

So, if Knee wants be the top player again (my thoughts on it the next paragraph onwards), at the moment, I wager strategizing to gain that missing information is his priority because that's the path of least resistance to getting back up. Beating all comers is secondary, and he may not gain much by going all out and beating a Pakistani at some small event, and whatever it is he loses may be worthwhile in the long run. This is not Knee vs Awais in isolation. He's still 2nd place after all... not a problem for his sponsors who flew him there. IMO, the Pakistani at Malaysia gave him that opportunity to study them with a few different tools while the stakes were negligible. Their winning may have the additional benefit of getting to see more of them at more events, meaning more experience for him and whoever wants to beat the Pakis consistently. If counterpicking is a strategy, experimenting to test and understand the playstyle is also a strategy.

....

Now... you seem to believe that being a top player means you are, by default, switched on and aggressive all the time, or even able to switch on at any time. You say a competitor would never have a different mentality ever if he wanted to be the best. You're talking about motivation.

Being switched on all the time takes a toll on people, especially as they age. I mean, what happened to Mike Tyson? The guy was the youngest heavyweight champion at one time, steamrolling through people and feared AF for a number of years. He was after people's hearts, eating their children, conquering them and their souls and praising allah and shit. Soon, he started eating himself, became a bum. And these days, he's a hopped-up, harmless pigeon. I have to say I love Iron Mike, and am ever amazed by his performance during his younger days. Mayweather? He's got a nice looking record, but there's also disrespect towards him for supposedly cowardly fighting and allegedly fixing fights, i.e. the guy may have found workarounds to switching it on.

But more relatably, there's the question of fatigue that also comes in the way of being able to switch on. The mental and psychological fatigue and fallout of playing and losing EVO at the top that would need to be dealt with to be able to switch on well. Granted combat sports and videogames are worlds apart as far as physical consequences of participating go. Still, FV Cup happened just a couple of weeks after EVO.

On top of that, we're talking about Knee who's widely recognized the best, already proved to the world over and over what he is for more than a decade. And you're assuming that Knee still wants to be the best no matter what. Wanting to improve and expand one's game is different from wanting to be on top of everyone else no matter what. Which one is it for Knee though? Do you know for certain?

I feel that Knee has been at the top level for a long enough time to take losses well, and also use them strategically. He's had downtimes in the past too, and has managed to come back up. But at 35, and having had an undeniably amazing and possibly very satisfying career thus far, I wonder if he's still got the fire burning at the same intensity. By that, I mean a few different things:

The reality is that the mindsets of people in the same circumstances are not so black and white because the variables in people's lives are not the same. "I wanna be the best" is not something everyone holds on to forever, especially as age happens.

Earlier, Knee's rivalry with other korean players closer to his age had added fuel to his fire. Now, all of a sudden, there's this much younger, simple, humble guy from some country nobody heard of till now handing his ass to him. Would that evoke the same kind of fire in Knee regardless of wanting to protect his reputation? Does he have it in him to climb that hill again? Even if he wants to, does he want to do it with the same vigour as earlier?

By around his age, most people start thinking about settling down into something steady, raising a family, or do some traveling or something else... or would already be doing those. While I wouldn't put it past him to be the kind of guy that can and would still keep competing at the top even into his 40s, at the same time, I'd also not discount that people in SE Asia tend to be especially given to the pressures of societal norms.

Yeah, money drives people. But Knee is likely far away from being financially unstable, unless he's been stupid with his earnings. As far as his income from streaming is concerned, I don't know how much he's making, but he likely can't rely on streaming tekken matches to keep him going in the long term. At best, streaming is a stop-gap arrangement. I don't see that as a major driving force. A guy like him can easily find more stable income and possibly a more satisfying work experience as part of the video game development industry or perhaps even the entertainment industry or something else given his life so far. So, I'm not sure how motivated he'd be to protect a temporary income source that's prone to fluctuation.

I'm not bothered with disrespecting the Pakistanis or Knee or anyone. I'm simply making observations putting my thoughts out here.

Last edited by dodecadozen on Aug 30th, 2019 at 18:09

Signature Bring back [kunimitsu] for T7!
SSfox
Foxstepman
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3310
#116 “Quote” Edit Post
@Enko: Knee and Qudans knows so well each others at this point. Not like Awais who's totally Unkown for Knee, So it would be more logic if Knee tried many options against the Unknow"Awais" than the Known Qudans".



Originally posted by dodecadozen
I'm not against the idea that Knee tried his best VS Awais, and lost. But to me, that seems far from reality.

He couldn't beat Arslan because he was working with limited information on Arslan's approach, while simultaneously trying to process new information (Arslan's play patterns) and trying to counter it, and possibly dealing with the mental effects of competitive pride and psychology. I'd also consider age-related and motivational factors. Who knows. I mean why does the guy play so many different characters? I'm sure you can think about that in quite a few different ways than just a simple "counterpicker!".

You say Knee's ego won't allow him to lose. But he was already forced to swallow what you say he dreaded at the biggest event and in a big way. And in losing, he's likely found a release for all that pent up tension. I mean competitive spirit does him no good if he can't figure out why he's losing. All that experience of so many years has yielded little against this. And just more intense practice in his usual ways may not necessarily be the answer to beating Pakistan, or even if that's what he wants to do.

After Knee lost at EVO, there was that interview where he confessed that Pakistan's style of playing tekken was difficult to process, and that consequently, he understood new ways of looking at the game (paraphrasing from memory). He seemed happy about it as if having made a discovery, even thanking Arslan, the usurper. That's not a sign of insecurity or a jealous ego. Seems to me like a guy who values the experience of playing the game more than the name and fame.

So, if Knee wants be the top player again (my thoughts on it the next paragraph onwards), at the moment, I wager strategizing to gain that missing information is his priority because that's the path of least resistance to getting back up. Beating all comers is secondary, and he may not gain much by going all out and beating a Pakistani at some small event, and whatever it is he loses may be worthwhile in the long run. This is not Knee vs Awais in isolation. He's still 2nd place after all... not a problem for his sponsors who flew him there. IMO, the Pakistani at Malaysia gave him that opportunity to study them with a few different tools while the stakes were negligible. Their winning may have the additional benefit of getting to see more of them at more events, meaning more experience for him and whoever wants to beat the Pakis consistently. If counterpicking is a strategy, experimenting to test and understand the playstyle is also a strategy.

....

Now... you seem to believe that being a top player means you are, by default, switched on and aggressive all the time, or even able to switch on at any time. You say a competitor would never have a different mentality ever if he wanted to be the best. You're talking about motivation.

Being switched on all the time takes a toll on people, especially as they age. I mean, what happened to Mike Tyson? The guy was the youngest heavyweight champion at one time, steamrolling through people and feared AF for a number of years. He was after people's hearts, eating their children, conquering them and their souls and praising allah and shit. Soon, he started eating himself, became a bum. And these days, he's a hopped-up, harmless pigeon. I have to say I love Iron Mike, and am ever amazed by his performance during his younger days. Mayweather? He's got a nice looking record, but there's also disrespect towards him for supposedly cowardly fighting and allegedly fixing fights, i.e. the guy may have found workarounds to switching it on.

But more relatably, there's the question of fatigue that also comes in the way of being able to switch on. The mental and psychological fatigue and fallout of playing and losing EVO at the top that would need to be dealt with to be able to switch on well. Granted combat sports and videogames are worlds apart as far as physical consequences of participating go. Still, FV Cup happened just a couple of weeks after EVO.

On top of that, we're talking about Knee who's widely recognized the best, already proved to the world over and over what he is for more than a decade. And you're assuming that Knee still wants to be the best no matter what. Wanting to improve and expand one's game is different from wanting to be on top of everyone else no matter what. Which one is it for Knee though? Do you know for certain?

I feel that Knee has been at the top level for a long enough time to take losses well, and also use them strategically. He's had downtimes in the past too, and has managed to come back up. But at 35, and having had an undeniably amazing and possibly very satisfying career thus far, I wonder if he's still got the fire burning at the same intensity. By that, I mean a few different things:

The reality is that the mindsets of people in the same circumstances are not so black and white because the variables in people's lives are not the same. "I wanna be the best" is not something everyone holds on to forever, especially as age happens.

Earlier, Knee's rivalry with other korean players closer to his age had added fuel to his fire. Now, all of a sudden, there's this much younger, simple, humble guy from some country nobody heard of till now handing his ass to him. Would that evoke the same kind of fire in Knee regardless of wanting to protect his reputation? Does he have it in him to climb that hill again? Even if he wants to, does he want to do it with the same vigour as earlier?

By around his age, most people start thinking about settling down into something steady, raising a family, or do some traveling or something else... or would already be doing those. While I wouldn't put it past him to be the kind of guy that can and would still keep competing at the top even into his 40s, at the same time, I'd also not discount that people in SE Asia tend to be especially given to the pressures of societal norms.

Yeah, money drives people. But Knee is likely far away from being financially unstable, unless he's been stupid with his earnings. As far as his income from streaming is concerned, I don't know how much he's making, but he likely can't rely on streaming tekken matches to keep him going in the long term. At best, streaming is a stop-gap arrangement. I don't see that as a major driving force. A guy like him can easily find more stable income and possibly a more satisfying work experience as part of the video game development industry or perhaps even the entertainment industry or something else given his life so far. So, I'm not sure how motivated he'd be to protect a temporary income source that's prone to fluctuation.

I'm not bothered with disrespecting the Pakistanis or Knee or anyone. I'm simply making observations putting my thoughts out here.


Pretty much agree with this post, having same thoughts overall.

Anyway to just sum up this whole thing, i'm not convicted that Awais is a better player than Knee (and FFS i'm saying Awais, not Arslan, he is in no way a discussion here, ONLY mentioning ... Awais). There's good chance Awais will meet Knee again in a big tournament, if that ever happen and Awais wins again, then... yeah sure. But for now the Knee VS Awais at the Malaysia tournament for me it was more of a Batman losing VS Joker while Batman didn't use 5% of his gadgets for "some reasons".
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#117 “Quote” Edit Post
What other gadget you are talking about? Steve. You see what happen when knee uses Steve against pakistani. He got 0-6 by Arslan and got 9-18 by awais the katarina user. Knee also used kazuya against Arslan. I don't buy that knee did not tried hard. Some Pakistani even considers awais honey as better than Arslan.
wrazor
Champion
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 273
#118 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by enko
Using Tennis and Roger Federer only is a small data. For example at chess magnus carlsen winning percentage increases against lower level chess players. At nba, top teams winning percentage increase against weaker teams.

One thing with top players, they all hate to lose. Heck even for casuals, they usually want to beat their friends or playing buddies.


This win record is not about the worse or better players. This win record is about the prestige of the tournament. The best teams in a league will lose occasionally to lower ranked teams, but very very very rarely in a playoff/cup final.
wrazor
Champion
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 273
#119 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by enko
What other gadget you are talking about? Steve. You see what happen when knee uses Steve against pakistani. He got 0-6 by Arslan and got 9-18 by awais the katarina user. Knee also used kazuya against Arslan. I don't buy that knee did not tried hard. Some Pakistani even considers awais honey as better than Arslan.


You are totally a filipino who wont post about AK at all but will know exactly which obscure(unknown at the time) pakistani beat knee with what score off stream. And you also know about those pakistani players who are not even gone international yet. Amazing right. As if you would have to be in the know of the local scene there.
enko
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 313
#120 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by wrazor
You are totally a filipino who wont post about AK at all but will know exactly which obscure(unknown at the time) pakistani beat knee with what score off stream. And you also know about those pakistani players who are not even gone international yet. Amazing right. As if you would have to be in the know of the local scene there.

It easy to learn these Pakistani players cause of youtube suggestions, reddit and twitter from other tekken players. I am familiar with AK. Even when he placed 3rd at tt2 world championship ak's Kbd is not as good. But now he improved it. I think ak's team mate doujin performs better against international competition. Doujin beat jdcr with Marduk at wnf GF before evo. Doujin beat saint with gigas. Doujin also has beaten qudans in iesf GF. But in their individual matches AK dominates doujin.

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