Tekken 7 Dragunov (Loc Test Info)

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Kiaruda
War Lord
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 723
PSN: Kiaruda
#41 “Quote” Edit Post
I personally don't think d/f+1,4 would be too good if it jailed. It would still be minus on block and they could easily make it punishable in that case. 4,1 jails and it's not a fantastic move. It's just an average 12f punisher and it's not even reliable at all times.
Azaael
5th Dan
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 297
From: Finland
#42 “Quote” Edit Post
Well, both 4,1 and d/f+1,4 are -6 on block currently, 4,1 is +8 on hit, the latter is a KND. Their damage as of TTT2 is only 7 points difference(4,1 totals 33, d/f+1,4 is 40.) 4,1 is a 12f punisher, d/f+1,4 is 13f.

The big difference is the mid-high vs. high-high(and of course KND, which can leave them open for more hurting). As of now the ease of ducking the latter means nastier blowback for 7 points more damage. Now it is again NCc though a more difficult one. (I personally think 4,1 is pretty damn good but that's just me; I usually get a decent amount of punishment mileage out of the thing and it's great in combos, and +8 means you can do about anything after it.)

Okay, so picturing a world where 4,1 is the same and d/f+1,4 jailed; he'd basically from what I can see just end up with a solid 13f punisher at range 1. You don't get a full combo off of it or anything, it's sort of a wonky hit that I don't think it would do a ton in a combo. You'd be able to assault people trying some funny business on the ground at least, though it knocks them to a bit of an angle. (f,f+4 can catch someone, d+3+4 tags them right in the forehead if they try to lay there, d+3,4 can hit them as well though not 100% reliable. Note just taken into the practice mode lab so live results may vary.)

I'd not add K! to it in any case if it jailed. I dunno-I mean I see both sides of the argument here(OP, not OP), and the more I look at it(and the more my coffee works) non-OP is winning out though I'm positive I'm missing a factor or factors of the move(I'm very likely by far the one who makes more mistakes figuring this shit out than anyone here. I like these discussions since it helps me get back into a game that I was a bit too long out of.)

(Note-this quick testing was done with T6BR.)
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Kiaruda
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Posts: 723
PSN: Kiaruda
#43 “Quote” Edit Post
d/f+4,1 would not be a 13f punisher because it's NCc so even if it jailed, it wouldn't be OP. The only thing that makes it better is that the opponent is not able to duck the second hit and therefore misses out on some damage - which, I might add, would be a very good buff for Drag but it's still far from OP.
Azaael
5th Dan
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 297
From: Finland
#44 “Quote” Edit Post
Hmm, yeah point on the NCc. Got carried away trying to figure it out and I knew i'd miss something. But yeah-Bopper, I'm curious on why you think jailing would make it OP? If it CH it's a combo, otherwise they just need to block both hits. It's -6 on block, so not unsafe, but also not really enough to mount a big offense or anything after.
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Bopper
Iron Fist God
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Sweden
PSN: MAGUNITO
#45 “Quote” Edit Post
because its a 13f mid with big pushback that deals 40+ on CH. It would be a super strong move if it jailed = was safe on block. Do you know of any similar moves in ttt2 for example?
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Azaael
5th Dan
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 297
From: Finland
#46 “Quote” Edit Post
Maybe not with those exact specs off the top of my head, but I can think of moves that, IMO, are likely better anyway? (Now you may think other moves int he game ARE OP as well and need a nerf of course, I can certainly think of a few moves that could do with some toning down, and I'm sure once 7 rolls out I'll find some moves that could use some toning down.)

I'd be willing to say, if it jailed, lower the pushback maybe? Make it a little more - on block(-10? That was a jab would basically keep any follow up attempts at bay.) Though I mean 4,1 jails and is only -6 on block, and again, only 7 points less damage on natural hit(I think it hits 40-ish on a CH), is usable as combo filler as well. Perfectly fine move and some people don't even like it as much, it does not KND. Broke out T6 again to test pushback of both moves on regular block-honestly, the pushback is similar(again, in T6.) I stood Lars(average size guy) on one of the squares and counted the pushback of both moves. It really is close. 4,1 also has a gaggle of follow up options(u/f+4 if they want to try a cheeky low attack to crush it and get a small combo off of it or worse at the wall, an instant throw, 1,2,1, d+1 into a stomp, a bunch of other stuff.

Arguably much more on hit than d/f+1,4 would have on hit. So while it's damage is more on it's own I'd argue the damage *potential* of 4,1 is higher. I mean even something like 4,1(33 damage), d+1(CH damage around...25 or so? and KND), into stomp(24 damage) is like almost half their life.

(I guess also as an aside, when discussing moves and power, it might help to have a sort of 'baseline' of what a move should and shouldn't be able to accomplish. I also understand I might be looking at this as not only what the moves do, but what you can follow up said moves with.)

I mean your proposal of playing with the hitbox to make it hard to duck is a thing too, and that would still buff it nicely...but hmm. Okay, mess up ducking and you eat a boot to the face and then likely something on the ground after. Or of course you can just block the second hit too and eat the pushback(and since it's -6 you won't face any uber followup anyway, as it stands.)

I mean you probably are right. I dunno why my brain is having a bit of trouble being convinced, it may be because I am looking too hard at follow up options instead of the moves in and of themselves.
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Bopper
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#47 “Quote” Edit Post
Well there is a major difference between df+1,4 and 4,1 that you are disregarding. 4,1 is high, high and df+1,4 is mid high. There is no character that has a similar move as a jail df+1,4, and thats for a good reason = it would be really, really, really good. Like look at other 13f df+1 followups. They are either unsafe or second hit high. Having that much power in a 13f mid move without any risk attached would be way too good.
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Azaael
5th Dan
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 297
From: Finland
#48 “Quote” Edit Post
That makes sense. (And honestly as someone who has not really memorized even most of the moves of the game, I didn't know off the top of my head. I mean I know there are people with stupidly good moves, and yeah, some of them reach arguably 'too good' status, perhaps.)

Okay-so some underestimating mid-high there aside-the move as it stands IMO DOES need a little something. Your idea is solid I really feel(keep as is, just mess with the hitbox to make it hard to duck), or just maybe make it -10 and jailing. That way it would take away the safety(it would be fully jab punishable at that point), but would gain the jail. Unless even that might be too much for it? I mean I'm trying to picture both in a match and trying to see which would be the bigger improvement while keeping the move reasonable.

Oh there are a few moves of Drag's that I've been thinking could use adjustments, this one just I think stuck out to me since I liked how it looks a lot and just wish it were a little better.
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Kiaruda
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PSN: Kiaruda
#49 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't exactly understand why it makes a difference that 4,1 is h,h and d/f+1,4 is m,h. Nobody is just gonna duck 4,1 so the 4 might as well be mid. What does that change?

And in TTT2, a lot of characters have super cheap stuff (though not necessarily for 13 frames) so I think a jail in Drag's d/f+1,4 would be justified considering he lacks an over-the-top spammable cheap move.
Azaael
5th Dan
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 297
From: Finland
#50 “Quote” Edit Post
Didn't want to put this in the other thread since that's general purpose, but that vid that Bopper posted with the ultra-close WR2 launch(and they seemed to keep the CH bound though the follow up combo was a tame one rather than the big carry, would like to see if that's still possible or if they nerfed that a bit), I also saw this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KN3zQmN49E#t=358

b+4,3 seems almost faster recovery. It's -9 on block now, and that's not jab punishable as it is but hmm. Another opinion?

Also, right after that, he combos the Rage Art with WS 1+2.

Come to think of it b+4,3 seems faster anyway. b+4 is 15 frames now, and later(around 6:15 ish) he did a b+1+2(+3 frames on block, not much, a little something), into a b+4,3...and it just *seemed* a bit faster as well. Would like another opinion here too. (I think it's still probably -9 on block.) If it is faster it's no more than a frame or so though I'd say. I tried lining up my t6 copy with it but somehow I feel like there's a slight difference. They're probably the same but an extra set of more tuned eyes would be helpful.

Last edited by Azaael on Dec 16th, 2014 at 02:36

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tyler2k
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#51 “Quote” Edit Post
That video seems (slightly) sped up, I'd take it with a grain of salt

Last edited by tyler2k on Dec 16th, 2014 at 14:38

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Azaael
5th Dan
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 297
From: Finland
#52 “Quote” Edit Post
Alright, thanks. So there is a speedup...but it could be the video itself. At least I wasn't seeing things about something being sped up at least. Time to sit tight until an updated test I guess(and hope actual Dragunov play happens.)
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