Master Raven in FR

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D3TROITR3D 2K
5th Dan
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 59
From: USA Michigan
XBL: D3TROITR3D 2K
#201 “Quote” Edit Post
Does anyone have any success using iWS+2 as a punisher? Been using it lately and find that most times it trades but wins.

Also, db+4 on hit into her df+1+4 command grab or 1+3 grab usually works, and df+1+4 breaks floors. Can her qcb, f+1+2 be buffered out of db+4? I can't seem to get it out.
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Kazzy_Jin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
From: Cuba
PSN: yeah right....
#202 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by D3TROITR3D 2K
Does anyone have any success using iWS+2 as a punisher? Been using it lately and find that most times it trades but wins.
I think you mean you're using it as a CH fishing tool, not a punisher.
Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1133
#203 “Quote” Edit Post
Fun fact, when Chloe does her low, mid infinite kick string, when the first kick hits, Maven can HAZ1 the mid for a free launch. Seems to be a popular beginner tactic.

Also, Claudio's f+2,2 where he hops back far is launch punishable by 3~4.




Originally posted by Rezz
Is there any reason to punish -14 moves with b+4,4? It does less damage than 4,1 and only gives about 1 more frame advantage?


Near the wall this will wallsplat the opponent.

Originally posted by Gandido
Just wanted to toss out what seemed like something important that I came across yesterday, although it might be common knowledge already.

Crouch dash with qcf (d,d/f,f) input does NOT go under jabs/highs. You get hit like if you were standing.
Crouch dash with d,d/f input DOES go under jabs and highs. If you hold back during this CD and a high was thrown near the very end, you WILL block it. (Tested vs. Alisa's RA since it stays out for so long).


Not common knowledge,this explains a lot. This is a deceptively simple input that makes worlds of difference in a match. Now I understand why I sometimes would go under a high, and then get hit by the exact same high. I thought it was my timing, but it is simple execution. Fantastic info.
Signature The danger's real enough. Let's not imagine it where it doesn't exist.

WangIsKhan
Lone Wolf
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 305
From: United States
#204 “Quote” Edit Post
Quick question: what are ravens moves that deal with fireballs? In every single list of character specific moves that avoid fireballs(ex. feng-qcf1), that I've seen, raven isn't listed.
Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1133
#205 “Quote” Edit Post
When Maven parries a Fireball the opponent does not gain any meter. Outside of that step and punish seems ideal.
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Rezz
Dragon Lord
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 801
From: USA New York
PSN: RezzEternal
#206 “Quote” Edit Post
What is the best punish to use when you block Ling's Cali roll? Should I just use 2,4 or does she get something guaranteed from 1,2 HAZ?
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Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1133
#207 “Quote” Edit Post
So Season 2 Maven is here.

Edit: After having played an extended offline session with some friends, I have revised my opinion of the CH4 nerf. This nerf is far more terrible than I realized. Maven's S2 cH4 is actually worse than T6-TTT2 Raven's cH4. In T6 and in TTT2, when Feng did uf+2 Raven's cH4 would grant a combo due to the unusual Axis Feng put himself at. That is now completely gone, and ALL of her other off axis cH4 combos are gone. All Maven has is an inconsistent range 0 f+2,3 combo from cH4, officially making her cH4 the worst i12 ch4 in the game.

This nerf is wrong. Magic 4 was something that I thought that Raven should have always had and it really rounded out Maven's game. It made opponents think before charging in blindly, yet despite that having it did not make her a top tier. This was a nerf for the sake of doing a nerf, particularly when Miguel, and Jin(seriously?) get magic 4s. On the subject her match-up against Jin got considerably worse, and it would have been bad even if her Magic 4 wasn't taken away. Bad call Namco. Bad call.


BT f+4 was a nerf. People who knew about this wouldn't attempt to low parry Maven and would instead just block, making it easier to sneak in crouch jabs. This being removed reminds of of the days when Xiaoyu's bt crouch jabs were true lows. Maven can survive without this, because the other additions to her BT but it will be missed.

Chakram/Heavy Chakram is the nerf which was the dumbest. How is it Law's very spammable, very fast d+2,3 is only -15 and this is very slow move is -17? People who are familiar with Maven have always punished sloppy Chakram use. Chakram has always been high risk, but this makes it higher, with less reward for the hassle. This move should have gotten a damage buff. Making the low more minus on hit and block is bad considering the overall start up, but why on earth is the Heavy version also negative? Heavy Chakram is the epitome of a hard read, it's the anti-low parry read. How the heck can Maven do that big roll and still be negative on hit? Heavy version should be plus on hit, and should be safe on block. This is another nerf just for the sake of nerfing "hey guys lets make a slow move even more minus".

I don't mind the b+1 combo change. I know people prefer guaranteed wall damage over the new 50/50 options, but I like the 50/50 options. I also like the +5 on block.

1+2 is a deceptively strong buff. I have always used this move alot, and while some people may be excited that Maven has a i14 kd, that 1 frame of difference makes it a lot easier to score counter hits. Although it is nice to have an i14KD as well. Yes, that's right King's FC df+2.

3,3,4 is a good buff. Originally, if the opponent blocked the entire string they could punish it if there back was to the wall. Now they cannot. Ironically the only time I saw this punished, was when I punished it because I knew the frame data. The plus frames on the 3,3 are very good, and while I am not a big user of the 3,3,4,b cancel, it does have it's uses in pressure situations.

b+3 is an excellent buff. KD on hit, and it puts Maven in excellent situations for wake-ups, especially near the wall. I think it is worth losing the +2 frames on block for the advantage this brings on hit.

df+2 is a strange buff. While the move does connect in situations that it would not have connected in season 1, in most of the scenarios I have tested the df+2,4 seems to whiff. This move is now better at hitting moves with evasive properties, but I have not found any reliable combo applications. I am sure some will pop up.

f+4 is a huge buff. Even though it doesn't give any juggle damage f+4 into ff+2 is much better i15 punish than 1+2 or b+2,2 mix-ups. In addition to being able to punish annoying stuff on block like the mid hit of King's Ali Kick string, this move is an excellent whiff punisher. The only downside is the drop in damage. As Maven's strongest single hit move at 30 damage this was useful for killing people who you knew were going to try and rage art. Yeah she has df+1+2. but that move is too slow to use for the same purpose.

df+4,4 is also a huge buff. Many people were afraid they were going to remove the crouching launch properties when we read the patch notes, but were relieved to find that it remained. Now the first two hits are NC, and the full string is guaranteed out in the open. Great for online lag moments when f+4 isn't reliable. Maven needed this, great block punisher.

f+3 doesn't seem lower to me. All of the common moves that went under this (Eddy RLX) still go under this. Theoretically this should connect more consistently, but I don't honestly notice any difference.

3~4 I don't see the difference and I use this move all the time. Second hit still launches if the first hit whiffs, so it's fine by me.

QCF1 buff was to make it so that QCF1 into HAZ1+2 would connect consistently. It is possible to safely CH confirm QCF1 into HAZ1+2, although it takes some practice. There may be some new minor juggles possible as well.

HAZ1+2 giving a wall bounce is an interesting buff. While the move is a little slow by itself, it's a good candidate for Wall bounce because it can be guaranteed from QCF1. The move is not bad raw, due to all of Maven's options out of HAZ, but the qcf1 cH is there for a reason.

qcf2~1 or df+1+2 giving wall bounce is another interesting buff. Namco wanted people to use this move more, but still wanted it to be minus on block I guess. I don't agree with a move this slow being negative, not for the damage it does. There are some situations where this will be great but people will use HAZ1+2 more.

BT b+2 is a move I use a lot so I definitely noticed the difference immediately. Deceptively good buff.

BT 3,4 is a move that I only used once in a blue moon, because it was decently fast and had slightly more range than BT 1,4; At range 0 there is/was no reason to use this over BT 1,4; At longer range BT f+2,4 and even bt f+2,3 were both better moves. However now that this move does a bit more damage, and is neutral on block, and plus on hit, it can be used for pressure. So now there is a real reason to use this.

BT B+3 is virtually a new move. Not only does it connect more consistently, but it now has guaranteed damage. While I have not discovered any new combo applications, this has become an even better tool while in BT. One of my favorite buffs to Maven, considering she was so weak to step while in BT. This was an amazing buff that helps complete her BT game.

BT 1+2 is a fantastic buff. This is something that I have always thought Maven should have, so I was elated to see this in action. This makes her BT game far more effective, particularly when combined with BT b+3. There are so many ways to utilize this move, and the fear of this move makes people react different to her BT. Well done Namco, well done.


Overall Maven has been buffed. Having those two i15 punishers makes a huge difference. Now instead of tickling someone after blocking a -15 move she can seriously discourage opponents from throwing out moves. I notice a big difference in Law Match-ups and King match-ups to name a few. Her BT stance is now much more complete, and 4,1 is a better punish as a result of it. Also having an i14 kd makes a lot of situations different for Maven.

She still needs d+3+4 being a generic d+4. Unless Namco is planning on giving her a new and good low with that command. Also qcf2...very slow, weak and not easy to combo off of. I don't expect the T5 version back or anything(one can dream), but it should be easier to combo from and/or have a damage buff considering how slow it is and the low damage output is compared to other slow low lows.

Last edited by Baron West on Oct 8th, 2018 at 12:01

Signature The danger's real enough. Let's not imagine it where it doesn't exist.

mach one
Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 184
#208 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Baron West

Chakram/Heavy Chakram is the nerf which was the dumbest. How is it Law's very spammable, very fast d+2,3 is only -15 and this is very slow move is -17? People who are familiar with Maven have always punished sloppy Chakram use. Chakram has always been high risk, but this makes it higher, with less reward for the hassle. This move should have gotten a damage buff. Making the low more minus on hit and block is bad considering the overall start up, but why on earth is the Heavy version also negative? Heavy Chakram is the epitome of a hard read, it's the anti-low parry read. How the heck can Maven do that big roll and still be negative on hit? Heavy version should be plus on hit, and should be safe on block. This is another nerf just for the sake of nerfing "hey guys lets make a slow move even more minus".

first of all you cannot simply pick two random moves from different characters and demand them to have the same risk. some characters have safe mid launchers, some have unpunishable lows, what do you make of that?

secondly, those two moves you picked are not at all a good example for your point. a slightly better example would be gigas' ff1+2<1+2. law's d23 is guaranteed 15f punishable. this move is far from spammable, if not the exact opposite of spammable. a two hit move that only combos on counter and gets launch punished on block, how on earth do you spam something like that. chakram on the other hand does not guarantee punishment on block. in fact failed punish attempt can get the punisher themselves launched by the extension. chakram is way more spammable than law's d23 if that's how you wanna compare these moves.

also, in case you haven't noticed, uf3+4 in chakram has multiple active frames. so at tip range this move was actually only -13, which makes it even trickier and riskier to punish. that's the real purpose to this nerf: to make it at least -15 at any range. characters such as anna, steve, or maven herself who couldn't launch punish it before will continue to have a hard time against well spaced chakram.

another thing i would like to point out is that heavy chakram is useless against low parry. the two lows are too far apart. there's plenty of time to parry again after missing the first one. veteran players will always parry heavy chakram. that's why they added the teleport variations in t6, just so it's not a suicide move.

Last edited by mach one on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 04:54

Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1133
#209 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by mach one
first of all you cannot simply pick two random moves from different characters and demand them to have the same risk. some characters have safe mid launchers, some have unpunishable lows, what do you make of that?

secondly, those two moves you picked are not at all a good example for your point. a slightly better example would be gigas' ff1+2<1+2. law's d23 is guaranteed 15f punishable. this move is far from spammable, if not the exact opposite of spammable. a two hit move that only combos on counter and gets launch punished on block, how on earth do you spam something like that. chakram on the other hand does not guarantee punishment on block. in fact failed punish attempt can get the punisher themselves launched by the extension. chakram is way more spammable than law's d23 if that's how you wanna compare these moves.

also, in case you haven't noticed, uf3+4 in chakram has multiple active frames. so at tip range this move was actually only -13, which makes it even trickier and riskier to punish. that's the real purpose to this nerf: to make it at least -15 at any range. characters such as anna, steve, or maven herself who couldn't launch punish it before will continue to have a hard time against well spaced chakram.

another thing i would like to point out is that heavy chakram is useless against low parry. the two lows are too far apart. there's plenty of time to parry again after missing the first one. veteran players will always parry heavy chakram. that's why they added the teleport variations in t6, just so it's not a suicide move.


Outside of RD, mids that launch on normal hit generally fall into three categories. Quick generic df2s that have short range and don't launch crouch, slow mids Like Kaz ff3, Bryan Orbital, or stance mids like Ling AOP d+1+2. Safe lows are unblockable like Yoshi Sword Sweep(slow), or Ling guard breaker,(fast no damage) or do minuscule damage like Jack's FCdb+1 or Bear db+3. There is a relationship with speed, range, safety and damage when it comes to balanced moves.

Chakram is both slow and unsafe. Two things that should not go together. 23 frames is too slow for Chakram to be -17.

As for Law, his d+2,3 is an 11 frame counter hit launcher. It is requires very little effort and judgement to connect with in a match due to it's speed. Law can do it over and over again with favorable risk reward against characters who can't launch i15. Even Kuma's G-Clef Cannon is -16. The only way to reliably launch punish the move is to step it, but that requires a hard read, and leaves one vulnerable to Law's homing moves. The notion that it is harder to connect with cH d+2,3 in a match multiple times than it is to connect with Chakram does not make any sense. You lost me with that.

However you are right when you say it is a bad analogy to compare d+2,3 to Chakram. That is simply my annoyance with fast, dominant, counter hit launcher going untouched, when a slow launcher gets even more minus on block.

I understand why you compare Gigas's ff+1+2,1+2 string to Chakram. However Gigas's ff1+2 is not only faster than Chakram(even with the ff input), it has much more range, and it is homing. While the damage is the same, the only benefit Chakram has is that it low crushes. If Chakram gained homing, I wouldn't have an issue with it being -17.

A more ideal analogy would be Lili's df+3+4. Low Crushes, no tracking, 6 points less damage, 1 frame slower, but functionally the same as Chakram as it guarantees a full combo on hit. The difference? Far more range than Chakram. Cannot be i14 or i15 launched on Block, nor can the Mid Extension be launched on block. All the opponent gets from either part of the Backflip Spinning Edge String are i10 punishes. It doesn't require tip range or anything other than holding back.

Tip range is difficult to consistently get with slow moves like Maven Chakram or Lee Skyrocket, because opponents are constantly moving, and if the opponent happens to back dash, they get a free whiff punish. If someone spaces a slow launcher so it hits at tip range, the reward should be more safety not free i15s for everyone.

There is no good reason for Chakram to be -17 on block. Not while Lili has df3+4, Leo has ff4,3, and Lei has ff3. I don't believe any of those moves needs to be nerfed, simple buffs for Chakram would be fine.

Last edited by Baron West on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 20:43

Signature The danger's real enough. Let's not imagine it where it doesn't exist.

feeqmatic
Shihan
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 116
#210 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Baron West
Outside of RD, mids that launch on normal hit generally fall into three categories. Quick generic df2s that have short range and don't launch crouch, slow mids Like Kaz ff3, Bryan Orbital, or stance mids like Ling AOP d+1+2. Safe lows are unblockable like Yoshi Sword Sweep(slow), or Ling guard breaker,(fast no damage) or do minuscule damage like Jack's FCdb+1 or Bear db+3. There is a relationship with speed, range, safety and damage when it comes to balanced moves.

Chakram is both slow and unsafe. Two things that should not go together. 23 frames is too slow for Chakram to be -17.

As for Law, his d+2,3 is an 11 frame counter hit launcher. It is requires very little effort and judgement to connect with in a match due to it's speed. Law can do it over and over again with favorable risk reward against characters who can't launch i15. Even Kuma's G-Clef Cannon is -16. The only way to reliably launch punish the move is to step it, but that requires a hard read, and leaves one vulnerable to Law's homing moves. The notion that it is harder to connect with cH d+2,3 in a match multiple times than it is to connect with Chakram does not make any sense. You lost me with that.

However you are right when you say it is a bad analogy to compare d+2,3 to Chakram. That is simply my annoyance with fast, dominant, counter hit launcher going untouched, when a slow launcher gets even more minus on block.

I understand why you compare Gigas's ff+1+2,1+2 string to Chakram. However Gigas's ff1+2 is not only faster than Chakram(even with the ff input), it has much more range, and it is homing. While the damage is the same, the only benefit Chakram has is that it low crushes. If Chakram gained homing, I wouldn't have an issue with it being -17.

A more ideal analogy would be Lili's df+3+4. Low Crushes, no tracking, 6 points less damage, 1 frame slower, but functionally the same as Chakram as it guarantees a full combo on hit. The difference? Far more range than Chakram. Cannot be i14 or i15 launched on Block, nor can the Mid Extension be launched on block. All the opponent gets from either part of the Backflip Spinning Edge String are i10 punishes. It doesn't require tip range or anything other than holding back.

Tip range is difficult to consistently get with slow moves like Maven Chakram or Lee Skyrocket, because opponents are constantly moving, and if the opponent happens to back dash, they get a free whiff punish. If someone spaces a slow launcher so it hits at tip range, the reward should be more safety not free i15s for everyone.

There is no good reason for Chakram to be -17 on block. Not while Lili has df3+4, Leo has ff4,3, and Lei has ff3. I don't believe any of those moves needs to be nerfed, simple buffs for Chakram would be fine.


I thought about some of your comparisons here and I think I get you, but I also get why Chakram was nerfed. Essentially, Chakram is a scrub killing move that was maybe too good at it's job.

I was a former Marduk main who suffered through trying to make Gigas work from launch until earlier this year. I switched to Raven in like February and buzzsawed my way through ranked until I got to the Oranges where I was quickly cut down to size after seeing the limitations of her gimmicks.

Chakram was one of them. Unlike Lili's df3+4 or an orbital and other similar moves, Chakram has multiple follow-ups that make is an enticing tool to abuse at lower level play. Don't get me wrong, most of those follow-ups are pretty crappy options for learned players, but for those who don't know the matchup Raven feels like fighting a fricken final boss with all her shenanigans.

It's a 50-50 mixup with launch potential. With lili the only mixup is whether or not you punish after the first hit. With lili you can just hold back and nothing she can follow up with will hit. With Raven you block mid or low. 50-50's aren't just good for their instant gratification, the pressure of 50-50s add up during tense sets. So it makes sense that the require that this particular 50-50 with soooo many different options is risky for the user and not just the oppoenent.

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