Marshall Law - all changes TTT2 to T7FR

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Shimma
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
Post in this thread all changes to Marshall Law between TTT2 and T7FR

Nobody wants to wade through one long out of date poorly organised thread.

So let this thread be the 'bible' for all law changes in T7FR.
Signature Originally posted by kuni_hwoarang
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DRAGON.G123.LAW
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
any changes console ver m.law
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S2_Dotoring
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
3+4,4 S! followup mid,mid,high

3+4 -12
3+4,4 -13

ws1,2 safe
ws1,2 wallsplat
ws1,2 knd like Bryan's ff2 (no db4 guaranteed)

f1+2 doesn't knockdown ~ +5 on hit

3,4 better recovery

ff3 (all versions) powercrush
DSS1+2 powercrush

DSS f4 faster - can connect after S! (combo df2 f4,u3 b2 b2,1 S! 4,3 DSS f4)

db3 CH knd to FDFA (i.e Lili db3+4)

4,3 DSS f3 wall combo works on all characters

d2,3 launches regularly

f1+4, mid, evasive wallsplat/knd, unsafe

Last edited by S2_Dotoring on May 29th, 2017 at 20:40

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math_law
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Zaibatsu Threads are dead but still my notes in the first week of Tekken 7 FR worldwide release.

Good:
3+4,4 is a good 14 frame punisher as we all expected. Practice to punish every char with this long ranged move is essential. Jack's df2 for example is the easiest.

Junkyard second and third kick now catches the siderollers and SSed opponents much more consistently. Harder to SS which is good.

2,2,2 damage is good about 30 in CH and looks safe or jailing in case you got blocked.

Good range for d+1

DSS 2+4, DSS 1+3 and f,f+3+4 are all command grabs so better to use them.

Bad
2,2 which makes previously BT now is the second hit of 2,f+2,2 from the previous games.
to get BT you have to input 2,b+2 which is a bit difficult at times. We have to practice

U/F+4,d,f no more gives you DSS

Poor combo damage.
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Hallucinogenics
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
so 1+3 looks like it would be good at the wall since it has a side step property. not sure how unsafe it is , but it could be switched with b 3 to wall splat people and avoiding a low attack. again I'll check to make sure some time today and will edit this post
okaythen
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by math_law
Zaibatsu Threads are dead but still my notes in the first week of Tekken 7 FR worldwide release.

Good:
3+4,4 is a good 14 frame punisher as we all expected. Practice to punish every char with this long ranged move is essential. Jack's df2 for example is the easiest.

Junkyard second and third kick now catches the siderollers and SSed opponents much more consistently. Harder to SS which is good.

2,2,2 damage is good about 30 in CH and looks safe or jailing in case you got blocked.

Good range for d+1

DSS 2+4, DSS 1+3 and f,f+3+4 are all command grabs so better to use them.

Bad
2,2 which makes previously BT now is the second hit of 2,f+2,2 from the previous games.
to get BT you have to input 2,b+2 which is a bit difficult at times. We have to practice

U/F+4,d,f no more gives you DSS

Poor combo damage.



zaibatsu threads are dead so where do you guys go for info? looking for law stuff thanks!!
forest16
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Namco has an interesting way of nerfing Law in a way that's only noticeable if you play Law.

2,b+2 is a very annoying example. I think all Law players preferred it as just 2,2. There was no reason for this nerf because 2,f+2, even before it became 2,2, wasn't performed as 2,b+2. I suggest changing current 2,2 back to 2,f+2 and changing current 2,b+2 to 2,2.

I don't hate d+4,3 as a move. I think it's a fine addition to Law. But there is nothing more that I hate than its input. Think of Law's d+3+4 as a SFV 3f jab. Law is pressured, maybe has gotten hit, but wants to do a move to disrespect his opponent's plus frames. d+3+4, his high crushing, quick low kick, not only is that move, but has always defined the character! Too fast to block on reaction, it recovers crouching, setting up what people consider another defining move for Law, his WS+4,DSS. This happens extremely often: Law blocks a move that forces him into a crouching state. Law tries to use his type of SFV 3f jab like move, his d+3+4, to hopefully interrupt and contest the frames while remaining in a crouching state. Instead, Law performs a crouching left kick. FC 3. It is the equivalent of a SFV character wanting to go for a wakeup 3f jab, but instead doing a slow Fierce attack. "What??" The player cries out. "I didn't do that!" Oh, but you did, little Johnny. You see, Namco saw your crouching 3+4 input as a crouching 3. Unlike Street Fighter which priorities the strongest strength button, Tekken prioritizes the left buttons for some reason. So your opponent, perhaps in their vast knowledge of Law, used a move that forces Law into crouching in order to take advantage of the nerf to Law's d+3+4, previously d+4. If d+4,3 were to disappear, and d+3+4 were to go back to its old pre Tekken 5 input, d+4, I would be extremely happy! After all, db+4,4 no longer gives a combo, which was a main purpose of d+4,3's existence. But, I'm not opposed to d+4,3's existence. I just HATE how it has replaced Law's defining move's input to a self-crippling input error waiting to happen. There are many, many moves in Tekken 7 that force crouch on hit and block. So it's a big problem for Law! The Law player must see and know that they need to input FC 4 and not FC 3+4! So please change the input of Law's d+3+4 back to d+4, and d+4,3 to literally anything except d+4.

Another example is the recent supposed buff to the puchback on f,f+2,1,3 during juggle combos. It's such a nerf! I think the change to f,f+2,3 is a buff. But that is because it's used VS standing opponents in the neutral, not in juggle combos. After f,f+2,1,3 as a combo ender, Law can almost never get his ideal wall combo, 4,3,DSS f+3. He has to use b+2,3,d+4, and that even is a tighter combo than it should be for a character that supposedly likes walled stages. By nerfing f,f+2,1,3 in this way, they nerfed the character's best aspect: his wall combo. I've stopped using f,f+2,1,3. I've switched to launch, 4,u+3, f,f+1,2,3, b+2,1, f,f, b+2,1. I got the combo from Malgu. Unfortunately, there are launchers like UF+4, SS up and CH f+1+2,D, SS up that, after 4,u+3, the dash 1,2,3 isn't going to hit because the opponent is too low to the ground. So, please change f,f+2,1,3's last hit's pushback during juggle combos to its previous state. Again, I like the change to f,f+2,3.


I have more nerf complaints that I'd be ok if Namco forgot to change. Looking at the list below, man, Law has gotten nerfed a lot over the years.

DSS 4 from its previous junkyard kick combo second and third hits status to give a counterhit combo.

Junkyard kick combo giving a normal launch.

d+2,3 changed to the old Forest Law style of animation with a quick crushing somersault.

Make b+1,2,2 better. As of now, df+2 is infinitely better because it's safe, only 1f slower and actually launches.

Restore b+2's tracking ability.

Make f,f,f+3 faster. It's just so slow for its complete lack of tracking. And don't we all want to see the Bruce Lee trademark kick more?

WS+1,2's hit stun its old TTT2 one giving a db+4 combo or the threat of a VS BT junkyard if they get up quickly. Even if Law hits that old type of stun WS+1,2 where it would wallsplat, the old oki and stun is still better. But I'm sure Namco knew that and it was a nerf. Maybe as a tradeoff for its safety on block.

db+4,4 is like a Bryan Snake Edge that doesn't launch. Plenty of other characters have moves with similar frame data that give full combos. I also think Law's Rage Drive is still amongst the worst in the game due to its slow startup. I think Law having a mini combo with b+4,3 would justify its extremely punishable frames on block. Maybe change b+4,3 to no longer give a screw? Or, and I like this idea, change its second hit from a backflip to a 3 hit string using f,f+4,3's animation. Maybe nothing guaranteed after, but those extra hits could leave the opponent close to Law after a spike.

Bring back Law's old default chef / white pyjamas outfit.
forest16
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Adjust the collision box on f+3+4 so it doesn't go completely over and therefore miss grounded opponents would be nice

Also, why were most of Law's tenstrings removed? Especially his best one, df+1,3,2,2,3,3,3,4,3,4. The later part is still in the game but after df+1,2,2,1. A big nerf, I think. I think his crappy df+1 was supposed to be a tradeoff for his great tenstrings. Please restore Law's tenstrings!

Last edited by forest16 on May 22nd, 2019 at 23:39

The Game
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
A lot of old 10 strings were removed.
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Champion Law of America
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I'm new to the game but i find that the best way to win is to use f+3 then keep on using 3+4, f+1+2 until there dead.
forest16
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by The Game
A lot of old 10 strings were removed.
Yeah, but Law's best one got removed. And his single df+1,3,2 one ends in a high, low before the last knockdown hit. It's actually a new in Tekken 7 tenstring that isn't nearly as good as his df+1,3,2,2,3,3,3,4,3,4 one that's probably been the reasoning behind his crappy df+1.

On another subject though, I'm liking the buff in 3+4,4's range. It now punishes Heihachi's f,f+2 and normal range Paul's QCF+2. A bit less damage than a df+2 combo but still it's pretty great. Thanks Namco.
forest16
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
Don't you hate those 3 things, the 2,2 d+3+4 and f,f+2,1,3 changes? I hate d+3+4 the most, but the other 2 changes really suck
forest16
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#12 “Quote” Edit Post
https://youtu.be/dXcF42eSH74
^
Rip talks about his gripes and possible changes to Law. He quite stupidly says he wants to change b+4 to a 15f startup. He'll probably forget he said that, then when they change b+4 to 15f, he'll complain about how big a nerf it is and forget that it was him who suggested it. He gave no reasoning behind the b+4 nerf. No, keep b+4 14f because it's a good poke into back turned.

He also talks about how awful DSS 4 is. Law has DSS grabs to break opponents' standing guard. DSS 4 is -14 on block, not too too bad. If the opponent was closer after DSS 4 hit, it would be a lot better.

I agree that DSS 2 being a high is pretty bad. I was just playing Ranked last night VS another Law. The Law did WS+4, DSS. I thought, "I should crouch here! What mids do I need to worry about out of DSS? DSS f+3 and DSS f+3+4 are both slow af, so I'll be able to see them and stand back up to block. He won't do 3+4,4 because he'll get launched if I was stand guarding, everyone knows about that." Sure enough, the Law, on at least 2 occasions, did a move cancelled into DSS 2, and at least twice, I WS+2 launch punished him! He one and done'ed me. He'd had enough.

I agree that there are a lack of safe, decent speed mids out of DSS. I mained Steve in T5, and from an experienced Steve, I can say that DSS f+2,2 is probably the best mid option out of DSS. Safe, fast startup, and it's basically Steve's Flicker 1,f+1, which is also high,mid and safe on block. I don't mind that it's high on its first hit because at least it's fast. You could even argue that Law's DSS f+2,b+2,1,2 is his best option out of DSS period. Despite being mostly high, the first 2 hits jail, have great tracking, can be delayed, and because it has so many fast hits, if the opponent ducked and did a WS+2 VS Law's DSS, the potential for the string to interrupt the WS+2 is decent, although obviously not as good as DSS f+2,2. It's like because it has so many hits, it's like a move with a ton of active frames. That's what I notice about Tekken: a move that looks crappy on paper can actually be very good because it has a ton of active frames.

Look at Lee's Hitman stance, which has 1+2, a safe on block mid,mid poke, and recently buffed 1,4, which has a counterhit launch of of its second mid hit, also pretty fast. It would be great if they gave Law Lee's Hitman 1,4 out of DSS with its same properties.

All that said, I think if they kept Law exactly the same but just gave him Josie Rizal's f,f,f+3, Law would feel so buffed. Law's current f,f,f+3 is just so damn slow. I still use it though. It's a long range mid which Law needs so badly to mixup Slide with.

Because of f,f,f+3's poor tracking and speed, I mix it up with a run into 1,2,2, which also has great range, but tracks well and is faster and has a pseudo frame advantage after its third hit because it has a 2 or 1+2 possible 4th hit.

But just to re-iterate, please change 2,b+2 back to just 2,2 and make his current 2,2 2,f+2 again. Please change his current d+3+4 to d+4 and make his current d+4,3 d+3+4,3 or some other input. And I think the pushback on f,f+2,1,3's last hit is actually a nerf because it gives Law less time than before to dash up to the wall and 4,3,DSS f+3. Law always has to now do just b+2,3,d+4, which is less damage!
forest16
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#13 “Quote” Edit Post
Another nice quality of life buff would be to make DSS f+2,2,2 a S! screw attack. On side wall situations, I use 4,3,4, DSS f+2,2,2. They often don't completely stick to the wall and come out the other side in a normal juggle. In Tekken Tag 2, I'd get a bound and TA! combo from that. But because of the removal of bound in favour of screw, maybe they overlooked DSS f+2,2,2's importance for tricky wall angle combos.
forest16
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#14 “Quote” Edit Post
Non Law main players looking at Law often say he's super duper strong. But why doesn't Law win lots of tournaments if that's the case?

I think it's because of the same reason why I personally switched to Nina, an extremely complex character. Law has too many different poke moves for different purposes. Nina's df+1 covers all the properties. It has great tracking, great speed, and it's -1 on block so hit confirming it isn't too big of a deal. As a longtime Law main, it was so nice to have a quick poke that does all those things. I didn't need to worry about what my opponent's tendency is.

But when watching a Law player, you'll often see the Law's opponent make the Law player look foolish by stepping their attack or taking advantage of negative frames to bring the momentum of the battle back on their favour, forcing the Law player to go back on the defensive.

Unlike a Nina simple and effective in many ways df+1, Law has to carefully choose which quick poke to use:

Law's df+1 looks good on paper. A standard 13f, -1 on block df+1. But it has extremely poor tracking and range. So the one purpose Law would use df+1 instead of his other pokes is to attack with a fast mid that leaves Law close and -1 for possibly more pressure if blocked.

In practice, Law's best 13f mid poke is df+4. Far better than his df+1. It's much more negative frames on block, but it will reach the opponent when it should, unlike df+1, which has laughably bad range. So the purpose of the Law player using df+4 is to attack with a reliable, fast mid that will need to be hit confirmed but will reach a defensive opponent.

Then there is b+4. Having a 14f mid tracking move is great. But it's yet another mid poke that has specific purposes: homing properties and the ability to go back turned instead of having good frames on block. It will need to be hit confirmed like df+4 for that reason. So its use is when the Law player's opponent is stepping his df+1 df+4 and other moves that have poor tracking.

Aris from Avoiding the Puddle said it well. In a tournament, you don't want to have to think about which moves to use too much. The best characters also tend to be the simplest characters. Jack with his f,f+1. Kazumi with her df+1. Less really is more when you're under pressure.

It's true that Law has lots of great moves. But each one of his moves serves a specific purpose. Do you want good frames (df+1)? Do you reliability (df+4)? Do you want to prevent the opponent from sidestepping (b+4)?

When the opponent is farther away, the Law player will have to switch from b+4 to b+2 or b+3 or 1,2,2 to prevent Law from getting sidestepped. So, again, more to think about. Not just Jack f,f+1 to solve all problems.

Slide mixed up with WS+2 is rewarding. But if blocked, a sharp opponent should be able to get a big juggle combo for either option. So it's up to the Law player to attack with the option that will hit his opponent.

3+4 and 3+4,4 can be option select punished with a generic d+2. It will punish the 3+4, and high crush the third hit. And the third hit is a high, of course. The second and third hits are both -13.

So Law is extremely fair. If you see a player winning every tournament with Law, which simply doesn't happen now in Tekken 7's, what, 3rd year, just know that they're working much harder, using many different moves for different purposes, than if they had picked many of the other characters.
forest16
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#15 “Quote” Edit Post
I really like the buffs to d+1,3. His offense will be better as a result! One thing that made soul calibur 2 great was how many big damaging lows were completely safe, I think. Just saying Maybe there are some soul calibur devs lurking.

The f,f+3 and DSS f+3 is a significant nerfing for his combo damage.

I'm not sure if f,f+4,3's change was a buff. I think if f,f+4,3's recovery time was much quicker, it could be used in Law's combos instead of b+2,1. But I don't think it will because there are too many frames to run in too little amount of time to be a good staple S! move.

It might be good for okizeme, though. Or in a CH getting up 3 combo. But if it had been changed to do the bound move stun VS airborne opponents instead of the new S! stun, it would have offered better combos.

Here's a new combo using 4,u+3,DSS 3. Dash, 4,3,DSS F+3+4 spikes. Then, the mixup is db+3, or b+2. b+2 if they move, and db+3 if they stay grounded. Use the move that will beat what your opponent tends to do. After the VS grounded db+3, I run after them and DF,d,DF to mix them up yet again! But, again, play the player. Do what will work.

https://youtu.be/avsNsjRgYcM

Anyone know what the changes to d+2,3 and WS+1 entail? I tested them VS grounded and they don't hit grounded.
forest16
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#16 “Quote” Edit Post
Maybe Law's system-wide moves are so bad because he has many other effective moves.

It's often thrown around that Law has the worst rage drive in the game. But Law also doesn't have great armour moves. f,f+3 doesn't power crush until way, way after it should if it was an effective power crush. DSS 1+2 is only out of DSS, which isn't handy at all. I said in Rip's chat that I think b+3+4 should be Law's power crush, and Rip agreed!

Rip later said he thinks f+2~1 should be a wall bounce.
forest16
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#17 “Quote” Edit Post
I think a buff in b+1's tracking would've been better.

I think b+2's season 1 tracking should be restored.

2,b+2 should be just 2,2

d+3+4 should be just d+4 and the current d+4,3 can be changed to d+3+4,3. Law has no current d+4,3 from standing move from crouching that is used as a high crushing panic button move!

I think f,f+2,1,3's third hit should have more forward movement/range so it hits easier in combos. It happens so often that I hit the f,f+2,1 and the 3 is too short to reach. This buff wouldn't affect his overall combo paths. By using the f,f+2,1,3 string, you've committed to the combo ender. So the buff wouldn't affect any combos in terms of new combo paths.

I think too much focus has been put on his f,f+2,3 and not enough on f,f+2,1,3 to make sure that it is a consistent, easier than 4,3,DSS combo ender. Because of the new S! system, I think that the dash required for f,f+2,1,3 to hit fully can be harder to do than the dash, 4,3,DSS f+4 combo ender.

I think if b+3 was made faster so it could hit after b+2,3,4's launch, it would be a great buff.

Please give Law his best tenstring back, df+1,3,2,2,3,3,3,4,3,4. I miss it.

f,f+4,3 combos now do less damage than 3+4,4 combos. I really wasn't expecting f,f+4,3 to be changed in season 3. Why was this done?

df+3+4 leaves the opponent way too far on hit. Making the opponent closer on hit would be so nice please thanks

Last edited by forest16 on Oct 17th, 2019 at 00:44

forest16
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#18 “Quote” Edit Post
I think DSS f+1 in its current -14 on block state is worse than it should be on block.
forest16
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#19 “Quote” Edit Post
I think people think Law is good because of his 3+4,4. But I think if its third hit, the high attack, was made -17 on block, and maybe buffed in its damage by 7 or 8 points to balance that nerf, it could change the opinion of the average Joe. "Oh, that's -17 now? He sucks."

I also think buffing df+3+4 is long overdue. Its damage is too low. I think it should be 15 points. It would also be great if Law was right up close on hit.
forest16
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#20 “Quote” Edit Post
DSS is so nerfed at this point, too. While it's true that WS+4,DSS 3+4,4 can combo with the exact execution, I think the players who use that aren't hit confirming it. They're just doing it. They're going to get it blocked and launched.

I made myself laugh by calling DSS 2 "retard punch" because of the way Law swings, plus it's a high, plus it isn't plus on block like its guard stun might make it seem like. "Oh, I wasn't plus frames there? Oh well! Retard punch!" "Oh, I got it ducked and launched? Oh well! Retard punch!"

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