Master Raven in FR

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Baron West
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1139
#81 “Quote” Edit Post
Maven's b+1 retains it's Tag properties and KDs on counter hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPvxjH1qClg
23:47

In terms of the match-up against Gigas there were some noteworthy points.

The Maven player uses the Reversal against Gigas's rage drive everytime. Apparently it's an easy way of taking away his mix-up.

Knee wasn't always able to punish fF+4, so it may be range dependent for Gigas, at least for the punisher Knee used.

This Maven player gets hit out of his Jab HAZ mix-ups a lot. Seems like he would have done better if he did 1,2 then gauged Knee's reaction.

Gigas players(not just Knee) tend to jab a lot. A well timed df+3 will work wonders.

The safest range for Maven against Gigas seems to be just outside of his db+2.
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Mr Adam0
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#82 “Quote” Edit Post
Not sure if anyone wrote it somewhere already, but 3,3,4 is no longer NCC and SS3 is not a move anymore.
Baron West
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Posts: 1139
#83 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Mr Adam0
Not sure if anyone wrote it somewhere already, but 3,3,4 is no longer NCC and SS3 is not a move anymore.


Does 3,3 jail again?

So far her buffs are

cH4 full juggle
cH4,1 easy full juggle
SDW f+4,3 S!
2,4 w! at close proximity
1+2 Reversal has larger hitbox, executes faster than old 1+2
SDW 1+2 juggles (SDW 1+2 d+3 b+4,4s!)
df+2,3 S!
b+2,4,3+4 S!
1,2~HAZ
Invisibility during HAZ
FC d/f+3+4,4 ends in HAZ 4 spike
b+4,4 S! spin animation on hit (possibly more +frames?) and wall splat at close proximity
HAZ unblockable sword range buff

SDW f+2,4 into teleport
b2,4 series into teleport
b+4 series into teleport
u+3,d+3 into teleport

nerfs are

334 no longer NCC
QCF3 no longer juggles
b+4,4 less consistent in combos


Edit: More Buffs

Last edited by Baron West on Mar 26th, 2017 at 21:07

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S2_Dotoring
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#84 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Baron West
Does 3,3 jail again?

Yes.

Originally posted by Baron West
bb2 no longer NC?

Incorrect, NC.
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Lukmendes
Tier Whore
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3380
From: Brazil
#85 “Quote” Edit Post
So I'm sure you guys have already seen this:



I tested it out in Tag 2, I think I figured it out, Bryan's jab goes a bit to the right, and Raven slouches a bit to the left, and Bryan's jab hits her in the head, so when Raven does a jab, both of them move their heards a bit more to the right, making Bryan's jab whiff more, this also seems to happen with other characters which the jab hit Raven in the head (Such as Raven's own Jab or Kazuya's), but Bryan's and Bruce's are easier to make it whiff, it might happen with Josie too if she has the sabe jab as Bruce.

Edit: I tested out more, it looks like Raven moves his upper body to the right a bit during the jab, you can also make Lars' jab whiff, and that one hits Raven in the arm, so basicaly you can make jabs with too linear or leaning more to the right to whiff with Raven's jab.

Last edited by Lukmendes on Feb 17th, 2017 at 18:25

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tyler2k
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#86 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Baron West
So far her buffs are
...
b+4,4 S! spin animation on hit (possibly more +frames?)
b+4,4 cannot be used in many combos anymore unless used as the 2nd hit. For instance my old f,f+3, f,f+3, b+4,4, S! leaves them at a range where SDW 3+4 cannot reach, even after dashing. This is because the animation has been changed and she does this spinning animation that seems to add (my guess) ~15-20 frames of lag when compared to TTT2 b+4,4, B!

So while it might be an open-field or at the wall buff, in combos it's the complete opposite in my experience.

On the topic of 3,3,4, not being NCc is incredibly stupid. Instead she can now cancel into SDW instead of end with the armor stance. If anything it should have been like Lars old 1+2, as Raven you always need to input 3,3,4 when fishing for CH now but if you don't see CH, you would need to hold back to cancel the string in SDW and sway away from punishment. Instead she has this shitty ass string that really doesn't fit her playstyle and against new school Tekken players, won't be a worthy mixup because they won't know 3,3,4 used to be NCc (similar to how f+3+4 works in TTT2 and before). It'll be a one-trick pony for sure.

Finally, I feel like they modified something with d/f+1+4, open-field I would dash up and go for the instant throw and it would seemingly go right through the opponent. So I'm not sure if this has to do with her hitbox/hurtbox, as shown above, or what.

Oh yeah, these are my experiences from playing as her about a month ago. I didn't like what I saw, I just never posted about it.

Edit: One more thing. 4~3,3 is probably the dumbest change and most useless. In my experience, 4~3,3 is the timing to interrupt people who try to punish after 4~3 but if 4~3 hits and launches, it's too fast to hit for S!. If you do 4~3,<3, that will grant you the full launcher into S! but is not fast enough interrupt punishment. Otherwise, like usual, raw 4~3 is launch punishable. So basically you have to use Yomi if you want to do something like SS NH launcher, which means you might outsmart yourself and/or fail spectacularly.

Who the fuck designed this shit?

Last edited by tyler2k on Feb 18th, 2017 at 20:30

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Baron West
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#87 “Quote” Edit Post
Edit: NVM saw the combo 4~3:3 fF+3 1 fF+3, 1 fF+4.

Other than b+4,4 not juggling properly as the third or greater hit in a combo, what other nerfs/buffs did you notice Tyler?

Last edited by Baron West on Feb 20th, 2017 at 16:15

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tyler2k
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#88 “Quote” Edit Post
I think it's just a lack of substantial QoL improvements that's the most disappointing. Like the changes to 4~3 is such a bonehead mistake that perfectly expresses the problems with Raven. She has these incredibly specific, incredibly punishable options/extensions that most other characters don't have to deal with. It was the same way with Dragunov in the past, he would get nothing but "band-aid" fixes without addressing his real problems. Of course nowadays (e.g. T7) he's so incredibly generic that Namco went a little too ham with the buffs and obviously I would hate Raven to get the same treatment.

Some questionable things that are still in FR (from past games):
1) WS+1 is still -14 despite being mechanically identical to Jin's at -12
2) qcf+2 still retains its TTT2 damage nerf
3) d/f+4 is still -15 on block
4) WS+3+4/qcf+3+4 is still -14 (and doesn't S! launch on CH, like the Mishima's)

I'm sure you could name a ton of them if someone would go over the entire movelist with a fine tooth comb.

---

Now not to be 100% negative, FC d/f+3+4 into RA is pretty nice and will be good at the end of rounds.
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Starwinderbeta
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#89 “Quote” Edit Post
How does she compare to TTT2 Raven?

Are we looking at another low-tier hero or is she higher?
DYNA$TY
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PSN: Akushitsu
#90 “Quote” Edit Post
I believe she's better. Yes, the 3,3,4 nerf hurts but 3,3 being NC means a quicker tracking mid for ssl than f+2_f+3. You can just use 1+2 where you would've done 3,3,4. b+4,4 does w! on nh although that's a bit risky, also might punish get up 4, not sure of - on block. sdw b+3 adds more dmg to launchers ending in sdw as well as tracks ssl outside of sdw d+4 range ie after sdw b+2 on hit/block. Also, sdw b+2 seems to have less range.

2,4 w! buff is welcome although 2,4 doesn't punish get up 4 on block. Magic 4 is an improvement from just getting a knd, safer than finishing the string and getting launched. qcf+2 combo is still reduced but we get full launch in rage. sdw f+4,3 s! replaces u/b+1,2 b! and d/f+2,3 s! replaces b+1 b!. u/b+1 only real use now is a safe mid high crush. qcf+3,4 adds more dmg and better oki after f,f+3 than f+2,3. f,f+4 now flips op fdht if they move on the ground, so now after ex: qcf+3+4 if they move to avoid u/f+3, f,f+4 puts them in another situation.

Almost everything from tag 2 raven is still intact. ch sdw b+2_sdw 2 is still +8, also b+2,2, sdw 1,4, ender is still guaranteed on bt. I'm not sure what's going on w/ f+1+2, she already has f+3 for homing, then it's -14 which is the same as finishing f+3,2, and it's slower.

Last edited by DYNA$TY on Mar 7th, 2017 at 23:15

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Starwinderbeta
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Posts: 4423
From: USA California
#91 “Quote” Edit Post
Sup bro!

There's no T6/Tag 2 f+1+2. Any moves involving that clone have been removed from the new Raven, IIRC.
Baron West
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#92 “Quote” Edit Post
What are all the special parries/reversals?

The ones I am aware of are

b+2+4 & b+1+3 is the super parry that leaves you in FC.
SDW f+1+2 is the BT only reversal
b,B+2 is the blind ghost counter
1+2 is the shadow ghost unblockable counter
d+1+2 is the doppleganger into backflip

Does Maven still have the d+1+2 parry? I have not seen it in any match vids so far. Also, is the only follow-up for that move the backflip?
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DYNA$TY
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#93 “Quote” Edit Post
MRaven doesn't have d+1+2.
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Mr Adam0
Dirty Ninja Tricks
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#94 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Starwinderbeta
Sup bro!

There's no T6/Tag 2 f+1+2. Any moves involving that clone have been removed from the new Raven, IIRC.


ub1~f should still be there if you're looking for the wall tech trap.

MRaven is better overall IMO, only things that kind of sting are qcf3 no longer launching and 3,3,4 no longer being NCC while getting a bunch of buffs.
jinmtvt
Virtuoso
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From: Canada
#95 “Quote” Edit Post
any working link to a data frame page for MR yet please??
ESP
Warrior
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Posts: 156
#96 “Quote” Edit Post
http://seesaawiki.jp/w/inatekken/ translate the page and go to Master Raven's page.
Translate MRaven's page and select "special" and you'll find the frame data. Do not translate that page.

It isn't hard to understand.

LP = left punch, RP = right punch, WP = 1+2, etc.

The numbers are the directions on the numpad (so 1 means d/b).

上 = high
中 = mid
下 = low
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MCP
MCP=(0_o)™
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Posts: 9619
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#97 “Quote” Edit Post
Hello,
In the video I linked here, for JDCR's hand movement tutorial. At the end, he does multiple crouch dash into crouch dash cancel, while standing 1? I'm not familiar with Maven's commands

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...threadid=132330

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5k1mrU1RuU

What I posted about Master Raven:
No idea what this is. Crouch dash cancel into instant while standing 1??? qcb+1?
Looks like on 1p side he was doing multiple crouch dashes then cancelling into whatever this "1" mid attack is.
b,d/b,d,d/f, d,d/f, d,d/b, n, 1?

My question is, what is this movement and attack?
What is the use of multiple crouch dashes for Maven?
What is the mixup you're looking for?
Is this mainly used in Oki? Or do you try it out in the open?
If out in the open, what are my defensive options to avoid the mixup, e.g. SWR?
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S2_Dotoring
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Posts: 1574
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#98 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by MCP
My question is, what is this movement and attack?

Snake dash, and it's ws1
Originally posted by MCP
What is the use of multiple crouch dashes for Maven?

To mess with your opponent's mind
Originally posted by MCP
What is the mixup you're looking for?

ws1 (mid launcher) and fc df3+4,4 (high damage low)
Originally posted by MCP
Is this mainly used in Oki? Or do you try it out in the open?

Anywhere
Originally posted by MCP
If out in the open, what are my defensive options to avoid the mixup, e.g. SWR?

Stepping isn't a good idea considering she has a homing move from crouch. Your best bet is guessing the right mixup and launching either option (ws1 is -14, low staggers)

-

Examples are found in this video, done by the best Raven player.
GodAttack


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjO_gx3Zea8

Last edited by S2_Dotoring on Mar 27th, 2017 at 19:20

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MCP
MCP=(0_o)™
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9619
From: USA California
#99 “Quote” Edit Post
You are on the fucking point!

Originally posted by S2_Dotoring
Stepping isn't a good idea considering she has a homing move from crouch. Your best bet is guessing the right mixup.


Guessing is usually bad risk/reward :\. Try to avoid the guess, correct? Or is this a rare case of good reward to guess low/mid if we have a 14f standing juggle starter?

OK, so final stitch up questions.

ws1 is -14 on block and 15f startup
Can I step ws+1 to my left or right?

What are the details on fc, d/f+3+4,4?
l,l,m?
18f startup?
After reviewing the video, if I block the low, it staggers her for something like snake edge sized punishment. If she whiffs the low, the mid is a teleport into the air, which looks like it can be side stepped some direction. Otherwise, the mid is safe on block at -6f, correct?

From Tag 2 frame data:
http://rbnorway.org/raven-ttt2-frames/

I'd do all this myself in practice mode... but no one here owns the game yet.
S2_Dotoring
Broken mess
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1574
From: Italy
#100 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by MCP
Guessing is usually bad risk/reward :\. Try to avoid the guess, correct? Or is this a rare case of good reward to guess low/mid if we have a 14f standing juggle starter?

Well if Raven decides to go for ws1 you can launch if you have a 14f standing launcher, yes. But she has other mids from crouch, that are safe, of course. (ws2 being the most used one)
Originally posted by MCP
ws1 is -14 on block and 15f startup
Can I step ws+1 to my left or right?

14 frames fast, -14 on block.

You can step it to your left.
Originally posted by MCP
What are the details on fc, d/f+3+4,4?
l,l,m?
18f startup? mid -6f, correct?

Low, mid, 18 frames from crouch, low is -35, mid is -6, yes.

If you didn't get hit by/block the low, you can just float the second hit by using whatever dedicated floating move you have, or a simple UF4 to combo (if she decides to do the follow up)
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