Jin Kazama: Failure to launch

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BiggerBoss
1st Dan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 12
#1 “Quote” Edit Post
I've mained Jin since his T4 revamp. He's a ruthless savage and a great balance of power and speed. I've heard Jin described as a poker but I think he's optimised for punishment with his parry and easy CH combos, like CHdb4 b3 b3 b3~1,2 and CHdb2,3 (dash) b3~1,2.
He has good oki too with d4 and (in my opinion) the best back roll catch in the game, b2,1 (for a free db2,2,3) and of course 2,4 - a ruthless punisher.
This is great for solo combat, and I can't wait for T7 when Jin will no doubt resume being an indestructible master of war.

So what's your point, dude?
TTT2 Jin is pretty much F-tier with his laughable bound options and lack of taggable launchers, and I'm tired of getting crucified online.
WS2, the uppercut my grandmother sees coming, is blocked 90% of the time, and d3+4 is launch punishable by a whole host of characters.
I feel this is a problem with Jin and not my playing, based on my 100% win rate against other Jin players online (rare as they are).

I feel like f4~f CDS1+2 could work but I can't get it to connect, is that option possible? With Jin on point with Kaz I can get a 97dmg red life juicer, but I can never implement it online - even as a whiff punish most characters can recover quickly enough to block d3+4.

I'm not posting in the ask thread because I want to start a discussion on the philosophy of launching with Jin. What are your thoughts?

Ps - does anyone have a better red life juicer than:
[Kaz]EWGF~5 [Jin ] 3,1 1,3~3B! b3~fCDS1,2
Nyrepose
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1481
From: Norway
XBL: Swictor
#2 “Quote” Edit Post
Jin's d+3+4 is 15 frames, so it's just as fast as regular hop kicks and generic df+2, so if you fail to punish a whiff you're basically just too slow. You don't always have to punish with a launcher, use his 10-14 frame punishers for small whiffs or if you feel you're too slow. B+2,1 f+4, EWHF and ff+2 are great whiff punishers to get familiar with punisher in the 15 frame area before you go all in with d+3+4 or even the i19 eCD1.
Do you use ws+2 as a poke? It's mainly a punisher, a few people like to do ff+2 backdash duck ws+2 as a bait, but it's not really high tier tactics.

EWGF~5 EWHF dash 1,2,3 B! b3~f CDS 1,2 is his highest damaging staple.
Easier alternatives are b+3 instead of EWHF or 1,3~3 instead of 1,2,3(you won't need the dash).

lol, the smilies weren't really intended.

Edit: b+2,1 on backrollers gives a full combo if you follow up with 1,3~3.

Last edited by Nyrepose on Apr 10th, 2015 at 05:20

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BiggerBoss
1st Dan
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 12
#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Will the juicer still connect if WHF comes out? I get EWHF like 50% of the time (up from 20%, yay) so I'm probably not quick enough to pull of max dmg just yet.

I use WS2 as a punish. If they block my string and I think they're going high I'll suck and WS2 them but I'm so used to it being blocked I don't even tag on it anymore - probably shooting myself in the foot.

Had no idea 1,3~3 could connect with b2,1 on back roll, that's a game changer for me. My current tactics are mainly side step to force a whiff and punish with 2,4, or if I block the string punish with df1,4. I don't know what to do after either of those, doesn't seem to give any advantage. 1,d3 is another go-to, cheeky low poke.

I probably am too slow for d3+4, if it's 15 frames I should be landing it more often, I guess I've been using it at the wrong moments. I don't really know frame data I've tried but it doesn't stick in battle.

How many frames is db4? It feels a lot safer.

I can't launch with Jin and usually punish and poke until wallsplat, at which point I can really open up, but on infinite stages I struggle.

I have to main Kaz and have Jin as support if I want to win, but I don't want that to be the case haha.
Nyrepose
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1481
From: Norway
XBL: Swictor
#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Will the juicer still connect if WHF comes out? I get EWHF like 50% of the time (up from 20%, yay) so I'm probably not quick enough to pull of max dmg just yet.


That's not bad progress at all. Yesterday I literally was at 100%, that's never happened before, but some days I'm at like, 2% :p

It has been known to happen, but I wouldn't count on in. I have been experimenting a bit with doing the WHF on purpose and do the combo to make a fail-safe, but the dash get's so strict it wasn't worth it at all. And the CD1 has to be electric. EWHF 1,3~3 would be the first combo to aspire to make consistent I think if you prefer personal growth and occasionally missed combos over easier staples.

Double electrics are harder with Jin than the Mishimas. In T7 that will change though because of the df+1,4 and 1,2,4 tailspin.

I use WS2 as a punish. If they block my string and I think they're going high I'll suck and WS2 them but I'm so used to it being blocked I don't even tag on it anymore - probably shooting myself in the foot.


I rarely tag ws+2, it's a bad habit of mine.

What you can do here is to do more option selecting. Jin has really good ws options. ws+4 gives around -5 on block and about +5 on hit. The move has so fast recovery that most opponents I met never utilize the right defense/offense in time whether it hits or not. +5 means that your opponent can easily sidestep a df+1, but because of the fast recovery most of those I meet don't react fast enough to get away, especially if I used it to interrupt their offense. So hit confirming df+1,4 after ws+4 is a good option. If he sidesteps the df+1 you can even try to "sidestep-confirm" it since the last hit will get most sidesteppers. Only do df+1 if he blocks. Some will manage to sidestep the first and duck the second, but then again you have the df+1,4~4. The same works if ws+4 is blocked, only then when they're a frame late with offense instead of defense.

This tactic will surely go against you sometimes, that's when you go defensive after a blocked ws+4 and do a backdash/sidestep to try to catch them whiffing or d+4 to open up or crush highs etc. But you won't believe how many people I've beaten just with this move.

ws+1,2 is also really good. It's 13 frames, a bit faster than ws+2 but it's good on hit and delay-able, so if it's blocked you can delay-bait the last hit. This is a really good move because it has much more plus frames and faster recovery than most people seem to believe. Not much really, but if this hits, people start pushing buttons like a scrub, and you'll get CH 4 combo, CH df1,4(easily hit confirmed) and whatever you wish. It's good because of the opponents usual lack of knowledge. That is important to know, because someone knows, thats why you don't hop kick or f+4 unless you're really sure the opponent is gonna do something slower than 12-13 frames and stupid.

I went a bit haywire there, but my point to your original question is that Jin can afford to save his launchers until he's perfectly sure it will launch, because his others options are almost worth as much as free damage. He won't have to risk any punisher at all if you don't want him to.

Had no idea 1,3~3 could connect with b2,1 on back roll, that's a game changer for me. My current tactics are mainly side step to force a whiff and punish with 2,4, or if I block the string punish with df1,4. I don't know what to do after either of those, doesn't seem to give any advantage. 1,d3 is another go-to, cheeky low poke.


Well on hit it gives oki, if blocked you should backdash. d+4 is good to throw out once in a while too for chip damage and annoyance. Jin has his 2,1/2,1,4 which I use much more up close. Last hit delay-able and they often try to duck it because of his 2,1,4~4 low sweep. In addition the frames on 2,1 alone works so well that if it hits, you can do whatever offense you'd like, and if it's blocked you can just sidestep again and try again. Mix up with d+4/db+4 and do df+1,4~4 or 1,2,4 and backdash to create some space when you feel you need to breathe again. Jin is best played at the tip of his f+4 range with the occasional close-up pressure.

I don't really know frame data I've tried but it doesn't stick in battle.


Avoiding the Puddle on youtube have some recent good videos about that I think. Really good tutorials on how to think while playing in general. Frame data is fun if you don't let it overwhelm you:p

How many frames is db4? It feels a lot safer.


The speed is 20 frames, -13 on block and +3 on hit. Can actually be launch punished by Kazuya, ws+1,2 by Jin. But never stop using it, plus frames on lows are invaluable.

<-"I don't need no scrubby launcher"

Last edited by Nyrepose on Apr 11th, 2015 at 07:59

Signature Ursus Arctos; when saying it once isn't enough.
Hades Drops
Dragon Lord
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 832
#5 “Quote” Edit Post
do f1,3~3 instead of 1,3~3, adds range and consistency
NYG5
Iron Fist God
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1571
#6 “Quote” Edit Post
Jin's lack of raw launching power is balanced by his excelling at everything else. Throws, stances, lows, crouch dash mixup, pokes, +f moves, he has it all.
forest16
ForestTekkenVideos
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3799
From: Canada
PSN: Forest613
XBL: ForestSkies
#7 “Quote” Edit Post
Jin seems like a launch fest to me, I don't know what you guys are on. He has a hopkick FFS, and a CH launch safe df+2 on top of his excellent CH launching db+4 low and CD+1 -12 mid or f,f+3 + on block mid. He has way more than that too, like safe wallsplats like b+4 f,f+2 and d+1.
Nyrepose
Iron Fist God
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1481
From: Norway
XBL: Swictor
#8 “Quote” Edit Post
Ehm, his only safe launcher is 23 frames. It a great move, but you can't use it the same way as the safe generic df+2. His ch capabilities may really make him a launch festing fun guy provided your opponent push buttons. Df+2 kills his momentum why not just use ewhf? You'd want him to try to duck anyway, and it has better better range. Jin also sucks prolonged at that range as most can outpoke him when he "used up" his 2,1, so I usually space out with 1,2,4 or something so I can try to bait a whiff or ch f+4~f. You'd want the hit box of his move to be in front of him so it's difficult to ch him out of it. df+2 is beatable by standing 4 in any range it will hit unless you're plus 4(or 3?) which everyone sees coming, and then it becomes unsafe anyway because it tracks bad and can be ss punished. In any situation I can think of, ewhf is better.

As for CD+1, its a really good mid launcher, but unless you're completely sure it would hit you can just go for d+1 to bait punch parry if it gets blocked(cd1 would probably get blocked too if this happens, just 1-2 frames faster on perfect input) or dash d+2 for 50 or something damage if it hits. It's not that much less than a full Jin combo compared to the damage some characters can deal if cd+1 gets blocked. It evens out quite well I think.

Point is, you could try to make him a launch fest and succeed, but there's not really no need for it, and if someone struggle to whiff punish with cd+1 and d+3+4 and gets punished for that, it helps to know he has other safer options to use unless completely sure.
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