Russian Intelligence: TTT2 Dragunov QnA Thread

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Katt
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Joined: Jun 2011
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From: Norway
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#141 “Quote” Edit Post
The filler I use with Lars (tagged with Drag) is f+3 ws+2~f SE1 because it does ok damage and pushes the enemy right into Drags face, enabling Drag to finish some combos with either 4,4 or f+4,4,3 depending on prior hits.
venzo77
Lone Wolf
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 304
From: Italy
#142 “Quote” Edit Post
yeah i saw nobi doing that sometimes, dmg isn't that great though, i mean i think u can get more dmg off of df33. right?
Katt
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From: Norway
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#143 “Quote” Edit Post
Lars df+3,3 yeah it does slightly more damage than ws+2~SE1, but it gives Drag worse enders. Either wr+2, wr+3 or f3~CD ws+1+2. 4,4 is stronger than those options. I'd consider df+3,3 with Lars or something else if I wanted to wallcarry.

I can test when I get home from work! I'm pretty sure as I've already done this testing, but I didn't record the damage.

However, Lars can't slide under bigs with f+3, so against bigs they're limited to Lars df+3,3 Dragu f+3~CD ws+1+2.
Katt
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From: Norway
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#144 “Quote” Edit Post
Ok, damage-report.

Damage | Juggle
---------------------
73: df+2 f+4,4,3 f+1 ff+2 B! f+3~CDc d+4,4
79: df+2 f+4,4,3 f+1 ff+2~5 B! Lars df+3,3 Dragu wr+2
84: df+2 f+4,4,3 f+1 ff+2~5 B! Lars df+3,3 Dragu wr+3
85: df+2 f+4,4,3 f+1 ff+2~5 B! Lars df+3,3 Dragu f+3~CD ws+1+2
87: df+2 f+4,4,3 f+1 ff+2~5 B! Lars f+3 ws+2~f SE1 Dragu 4,4
97: df+2 f+4,4,3 f+1 ff+2~5 B! Lars df+3,3 Dragu f+3 W! 2 db+1 ws+1+2
venzo77
Lone Wolf
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 304
From: Italy
#145 “Quote” Edit Post
nice work. i generally use the 84 dmg one : ).
how about drag using 41, 43 B!, after df2? lars should be able to use ff2~SE1_3 after. maybe its worth a try. did u check it?
Katt
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From: Norway
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#146 “Quote” Edit Post
Doubt it's worth it. Not enough damage in total. 4,1 is pretty redundant for anything but punish/wallcarry in Tag2.
CKeegan
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 246
From: United Kingdom
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#147 “Quote” Edit Post
You'd be surprised, one of Venzo's combos with Drag/Law did more with 4,1, 4,3 then it did with a f+4,4,3.

I tag buffer QCF+2 depending on the situation. In my case, I use Bryan/Dragunov and I do less with a Bryan tag combo from QCF+2 then I do with a tag assault or even solo combo unless there's a wall; even in that case Dragunov may do more. But I also understand that sometimes red life does need to be taken away, especially against solo players and characters I don't like fighting against (rendering them useless if they have low enough health left) so in those cases I'd tag buffer.
Katt
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#148 “Quote” Edit Post
I will definitely test it, or see if I can optimize.
ashstampede
7th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
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From: United Kingdom
PSN: ashstampedeUk
#149 “Quote” Edit Post
How can you tell if it is a iWS vs a WS for example a lot of combos has the iWS+4 versions listed
HirakuNoShadow
1st Dan
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17
From: South Korea
#150 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by ashstampede
How can you tell if it is a iWS vs a WS for example a lot of combos has the iWS+4 versions listed


From basically how I see it, WS is when you're already in FC and inputting the buttons for the respective move while returning the d-pad / stick back to neutral, in most case you'll be using WS when you're punishing lows, as the lack of additional directional inputs allow the move to impact at its fastest frame.

iWS is when you want to execute WS moves while minimising the frames spent on getting in/out of FC, which is necessary in certain combo situations. As it requires an actual directional input (d,d/f,n) to perform, it will never be as fast as a normal WS move. Characters with qcf motion like Dragunov can do a 'half step' which is performed by just d, d/f, giving slightly faster access to certain iWS moves than other characters e.g. iWS+1+2 to impact at 14F under perfect execution (WS+1+2 is 12F)
ashstampede
7th Dan
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 88
From: United Kingdom
PSN: ashstampedeUk
#151 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by HirakuNoShadow
From basically how I see it, WS is when you're already in FC and inputting the buttons for the respective move while returning the d-pad / stick back to neutral, in most case you'll be using WS when you're punishing lows, as the lack of additional directional inputs allow the move to impact at its fastest frame.

iWS is when you want to execute WS moves while minimising the frames spent on getting in/out of FC, which is necessary in certain combo situations. As it requires an actual directional input (d,d/f,n) to perform, it will never be as fast as a normal WS move. Characters with qcf motion like Dragunov can do a 'half step' which is performed by just d, d/f, giving slightly faster access to certain iWS moves than other characters e.g. iWS+1+2 to impact at 14F under perfect execution (WS+1+2 is 12F)


Ok, I dont think i was fully awake when i asked that and wasnt thinking clearly. I was thinking it was something like an electric version and would be faster. but yea i know and use the concept of iWS/not being in FC and wanting to use the WS move. like for WS1+2 i will tap db then do 1+2. which is faster for the shoulder move iws 1+2 or qcf 1+2 ?
tyler2k
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#152 “Quote” Edit Post
Basically anytime Dragunov is left in FC/WS, the notation is WS. If he's not, it's noted as iWS.

The d,d/f,n iWS version is necessary for a good amount of Dragunov's combos because doing a d/b_d_d/f,n,4 will leave Dragunov too far away to continue the combo some time later down the line. Doing the CD iWS will naturally leave Dragunov closer making most of the combos much easier to land. Now there are exceptions where d/b_d_d/f,n,4 will easily work and that's on single strike, string CH launchers such as CH (1,2),1 and (d/b+2,1),2 but for everything else d,d/f,n,4 has to be used for consistency.
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CKeegan
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#153 “Quote” Edit Post
When an enemy's backturned, would df+2 be guaranteed after a full b+4,2,1?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, probably not. What about jabs though?

Last edited by CKeegan on Feb 17th, 2013 at 20:04

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tyler2k
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#154 “Quote” Edit Post
I always thought that going from BT to standing took 4 frames but that would make u/b+2, d/f+2 blockable meaning it would have to be at least 6 frames to turn around. Assuming it does take 6 frames and b+4,2,1 being +8, then by definition it would be blockable. Anyway you have to be careful with terminology "guaranteed", just because u/b+2 (to the back), d/f+2 works, doesn't make it guaranteed, instead just "unblockable".

Off the top of my head Raven can full reverse attacks in BT (SDW) with f+1+2 as well escape BT attacks with b+1+3_2+4. Ling's BT (RDS) f+1+2 reversal will catch Dragunov's d/f+2. Lei might be able to drop into FUFA stance in time to half/full escape. Feng's BT d+3 might have enough crush frames to half/full escape.

Other word of warning is that b+4,2,1, like d/b+2,1,2, against a BT opponent depends on the angle of attack, namely from certain angles b+4,2,1 will not fully land and d/b+2,1,2 will cause a flip over instead of stun. I think it's when you're directly behind them, neither will work properly, but being slightly off-axis to their back (~30+ degrees) is the sweet spot. Anytime they're fully BT, b+2,1,3 is Dragunov's magic string leading to guaranteed WS+4, d+4,4.
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CKeegan
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#155 “Quote” Edit Post
Cool, thanks. I found it a bit odd that the AI character in training mode wasn't able to get out of it, but was definitely trying to turn round.
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Katt
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#156 “Quote” Edit Post
Aris did a vid about that, some moves give + on block when you hit BT-opponents, but others that usually do don't. You can actually turn from BT in 3 frames.

I think it's this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3GiqBRHfMs
DomATL
2nd Dan
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
From: USA Georgia
#157 “Quote” Edit Post
Ok, been playing Dragunov long enough now to complain about stuff that keeps happening to me. How in the hell am I getting jabbed out of my qcb+2, I actually thought that move had some sort of crushing ability, but as im finding out it doesnt. Ive been jab out of that move, MID'd, LOW'd.. wut really bothers me is tho, getting hit low when i do that move, makes me wanna scream.. anyone else having this issue?
tyler2k
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#158 “Quote” Edit Post
I'm not sure if qcb+2 actually crushes, I think it's just really evasive. Also it really depends on what character you're going against, some character's attacks just have longer reach and/or "meatier" attacks to interrupt mid-swing. For instance qcb+2 is really good against Baek but less so vs Hwo.
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CKeegan
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#159 “Quote” Edit Post
QCB+2 is probably best used against moves like jump kicks which take a long time to recover and make the opponent stand still. You can see an example of this here from Cosmic Castaway, a mod (though inactive) on TZ and also on SRK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ftaEr9j-#t=306s
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AssassinX
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#160 “Quote” Edit Post
I apologize if this was discussed somewhere else in this thread, but I'm having serious problems with iwr+2. What the hell do you do, just sit there and block it and let him get hella frame advantage? Or is there somewhere around it.

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