TTT2 Baek Set-ups, Mix-ups and Strats

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Budding Fighter
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Joined: Jul 2012
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From: New Zealand
#21 “Quote” Edit Post
I see. Cool. I've tested it and the same holds for his 1 throw, and you'll have to iFLA 3,4,4,4 to get the BT juggle.
I sometimes get df+3,4 as a float on a backrolling opponent, but db+3,3~f seems to require quite strict timing.
I believe if you time it right, you should be able to get slash kick too. Thanks pal!

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Jan 2nd, 2013 at 22:05

Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
Budding Fighter
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#22 “Quote” Edit Post
Double post. Sorry.
Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
bdsright
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#23 “Quote” Edit Post
Great info Budding Fighter, this has helped a lot.

Looking forward to the rest of your guide (specifically the team synergy topic)
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Mr.Taliban
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Posts: 48
#24 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
Well, I don't know much about his standard throws, but his db1+3 is pretty much identical to Hwo. If they stand up right away or side roll and stand up, they will be backturned for a short amount of time, where you can backthrow or do a BT juggle. Obviously if they stay grounded or sideroll and stay grounded, d2 is the go to option. I was trying to see what to do against back roll, ff3_db3_cd3 should catch but I couldn't get it...


against back roll do a wd into cd+3 it will catch the opponent back rolling after 1+3 and db+1+3. you can also do dash grab at it will catch them from behind for a bt throw.
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Budding Fighter
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#25 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Mr.Taliban
against back roll do a wd into cd+3 it will catch the opponent back rolling after 1+3 and db+1+3. you can also do dash grab at it will catch them from behind for a bt throw.

KEWL! Thanks!
Is there any way you can FLA WD into FLA 3,4,4,4 JG? I'm trying that and it doesn't work straight.

Originally posted by bdsright
Great info Budding Fighter, this has helped a lot.

Looking forward to the rest of your guide (specifically the team synergy topic)

Your welcome!
To be perfectly honest the team synergy stuff, I'm dreading. That part will mostly be my opinions, and thus be a bit biased (and I don't like info to be biased). I'll try and pair every character in the game with him and talk about how I feel the team will work, along with some basic combos that you can do.
Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
Hyun Sai
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
From: Martinique
#26 “Quote” Edit Post
By the way, a dash followed by db+4 will catch back roll or side roll after db+1+3. With the good timing, you can have the usual juggle after (if they don't stay down after the side roll).

Last edited by Hyun Sai on Dec 25th, 2012 at 14:59

Budding Fighter
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#27 “Quote” Edit Post
10) FLA WD

This is probably the most advanced part of Baek's game - no, this is THE most advanced part of Baek's game.
Baek's problem is that most of his moves don't have a CRAPTON of range like some characters do *coughJackcough*. Also, if he whiffs, most of the time he's asking to get launched. This means that he's a rather short ranged character, and since BDC is really good in TTT2, it's kind of a problem.

df+3 is an i22 move. It's mid and launches on counter hit. It's punishable at -12, but there's a delayable (and hella HitConfirmable) part to that string (df+3>4) which KND's and wallsplats. That part is -14, but has a decent pushback.
The best thing about df+3 is that it can be cancelled into FLA just like his 1,2,3 string, by either forward, up or down (not by back though). It looks a bit awkward when you cancel it, though. He looks like he's just dashing and moving forward while in FLA.
Wait, he can move forward quickly in FLA (unlike Hwoarang)?
OH MY GOD WE HAVE THE SOLUTION TO BAEK'S RANGE PROBLEM.

df+3~f over and over is known as FLA WD (Or Flamingo Wavedash). I will do a short comparison of FLA WD with his regular f,n,d,df wavedash.

Wavedash
- Difficult (?) input (f,n,d,df,n,f,n,d,df...)
- Cannot be done if in FLA.
- You can stop it at any time (f,n,d,df,f,b to stop)
- Lateral movement is relatively small (f,n,d,df,f,u_d)
- Provides access to only a few moves
- If hit in it, Baek takes regular damage

FLA WD
- Easy input (df+3~f,df+3~f...)
- Can be done while in FLA.
- Cannot be stopped immediately (df+3~f~b+1+2)
- Lateral movement is relatively HUGE (df+3~u_d)
- Provides access to ALL of his FLA moves
- If hit in it, Baek eats CH damage.
The last part is really scary. This means that if you're approaching someone via FLA WD, if they stick out their magic 4 (or Steve b+1) and Baek gets hit, he gets launched.
This means that FLA WD requires a whole lot more awareness and spacing than the regular counterpart.
On the usage of FLA WD I have a little theory.
Budding Fighter's theory on the usage of FLA WD
If the distance between you and your opponent is such that you cannot hit df+3~f~FLA grab on its max range, you shouldn't be doing the Flamingo Wavedash at that time.

What I mean by that is you aren't supposed to be doing FLA WD right up in their face because the risk is so huge, unless it's a part of FLA pressure, in which case you've got to be a bit careful.
NoodleHead said it the best:
Originally posted by NoodleHead
... it's very important to know the very Fundamental of the FLA WD: the hit range of d/f+3...
Ask yourself this question: At what range should you be using Chreddy's u/f+4, Yoshi's f+3+4, and Hei's CD+3?

If your answer is not 'point blank range,' then you should have a very good idea when to stop canceling the d/f+3 during FLA WD.


Here's what NoodleHead has to say about FLA WD:
Originally posted by NoodleHead
Though FLA WD is not conventionally safer to the regular WD, its reward is over the roof. Here are some facts of a correctly done FLA WD w/o any other moves mixed in:
-FLA WD tracks, so it nullifies your opponent?s ss/sw as long as they are not done after the FLA WD (d/f+3~f) execution. d/f+3 alone also tracks a bit to its left
-FLA WD travels way faster than dash in, adding to the fact that d/f+3?s got super long range, it kills bdc for lunch.
-On CH, d/f+3 juggles [do a crapton of damage]. You can also choose to wall-carry for some even scarier wall/okizeme setup.
-On block, d/f+3 is jab-punishable, but w/ the delayed ?4? at the end, it will shut down opponent?s offense after eating a few of KND 4.


Okay, now that we know that learning the art of FLA WD is REALLY worth it, and I've been talking about spacing and careful usage of the FLA WD, let's go into the workshop and get practicing!
Learn the range of df+3 first. Go into practice mode, select a dummy (preferably a different character each time because characters models do matter).
Originally posted by NoodleHead
1. Attack the dummy w/ d/f+3 at its maximum range.
2. Attack the dummy w/ d/f+3~f d/f+3 at its maximum range.
3. Attack the dummy w/ d/f+3~f(x2, x3) d/f+3 at its maximum range.
4. Attack the dummy w/ d/f+3~u_d d/f+3 at its maximum range.
5. Attack the dummy w/ d/f+3~f d/f+3~u_d d/f+3 at its maximum range.

You need to nail each part of the exercise in 5 successive runs WITHOUT fail , ie, if you mess up and NOT hit the dummy at the max range of the kick, then start that step again from zero.

This might take you a few weeks, maybe a month and a half (it's been 5 weeks for me and I still get it messed up sometimes). Always practice this whenever you can go into practice mode.

Now that you would have learned the perfect max range of df+3 and df+3~f and stuff, you might be thinking, "Well what if the opponent is NOT at the perfect max range of df+3; what do I do then?"
Fear not my friend, because Baek can do other moves too!

I've made a little list of the useful moves Baek can do from FLA WD, and compared their range to df+3 (on a little scale from 1 to 15, 15 being the range of df+3). Here it is:
Code:

df
+3            [---------------]
FLA f+3         [-------------]
db+4            [------------]
FLA f+4         [----------]
FLA uf+3        [---------]
FLA 3,3~f       [---------]
b+4             [--------]
df+4            [--------]
df+1            [--------]
3               [-------]
4               [-------]
d+3             [-------]
b+1_b+2         [------]
db+3,3~f        [------]
d+4             [-----]
FLA grab        [----]
2               [----]
1               [---]
FLA punch parry []

Now you know the basic attacks you can do on the different ranges of the FLA WD. Now, to practice this, I suggest going into practice mode, picking Heihachi as a dummy, and set him to do his shadow step (bb,n,3+4). When he does that, you move a bit too (BDC, sidestep, CD whatever). Then, once the shadow step finishes, stop.
Now, FLA WD up to him and ask yourself, "Which move with hit on MAX RANGE from here?" I know this one will require a whole lot more practice, but this is a bit more realistic scenario, which I feel is a bit more effective. Of course you can do the NoodleHead way of hitting the opponent with the above moves at max range so as to learn the moves' range.

Originally posted by NoodleHead
So from here, you can now go to the practice mode, and test out their range. Start from a distance and FLA WD toward the dummy until the distance is smaller than the maximum d/f+3 range, then test out the rest of the attacks. It?s essential to know those move ranges and use them at where they are intended to use.
The reason why it's so difficult to use those attacks effectively during FLA WD is because not only you have to know the range of each attack, but you also have to add such range into the range of your carefully spaced FLA WD . To perform those moves at their effective range, you will need to have absolutely no problem w/ controlling FLA WD forward-travel at all? In a way, you will be replacing the WD or forward movement all together w/ the FLA WD only, which makes Baek almost a completely new character to play.
If you still have difficulty doing all these at once, make sure you can control your FLA WD like if you are walking normally (Chapter 1), then go back and practice again. To master up to this point should take you at least two week to a month or so. Good luck.


I've been practicing for five weeks and I still don't have it down, so don't feel sad if you can't get it all right at the first time. Practicing and mastering FLA WD requires a crap ton of patience.

The most hard-to-grasp fact about FLA WD is that you can't block instantly from FLA WD, unlike regular WD. Here's NoodleHead on how to get around that weakness:

Originally posted by NoodleHead
If you have done everything at this point and have applied it in your game, you probably have realized how scary FLA WD is to your opponents. Different from other offensive maneuver, FLA WD in offense only gets scarier the more your opponents become defensive/turtlish...

Nevertheless, when they finally become panic and slip a quick desperation attack, you will realize that the whole FLA WD practice you have tried so hard to accomplish suddenly becomes useless. It only gets much worse when they find out that using the quick, mid range attacks (i.e. Julia's f,f+1, or Chreddy's u/f+4) IS the way to destroy the FLA WD setup... What are you going to do?


Well? there are a few options really, but the difficulty is several times harder than you have practiced before? Those are:

1. FLA SS WD - Use within opponent's attack range
2. FLA punch parry - Use beyond opponent's attack range

I am going to explain more of each below...

1. FLA SS WD - 3-D FLA WD

There are a few places where you will find this useful. FLA SSR avoids many right arm attacks such as Jin's f,f+2, and FLA SSL avoids the close-range jabs. Make sure that the SS actually comes out during the FLA WD, and try to learn the recovery frame so you can add your own attack immediately.

The hard part of this one is not the ss (though it would give u some trouble getting it to be useful to dodge your opponent), but the part where you are to attack. You can start w/ the easier attacks such as b+2 for ssl, and b+1 for ssr to make it a double SS during FLA WD, then you can start adding more moves that might give u better reward, such as FLA (hold 3) b+4,4,3 for a side-way juggle.

To practice FLA SS WD carefully, you can train by working on this sequence:

d/f+3~f~U ssl FLA d/f+3~f FLA d/f+3~f~D ssr FLA d/f+3~f and so on
(short notation: FLA WD~SSL~WD~SSR~and repeat)

2. FLA punch parry - 4-D(!?) FLA WD (refers to Eyeshield 21 Sena's 4th Dimension Run)

You might be wondering why I am using punch parry OUTSIDE of opponent's strike range... well, here are a few reasons why you shouldn't do it inside of opponent's striking range:

-The SPACING of FLA WD into anything is DIFFICULT
-The TIMING of punch parry is HARD

So... unless it's absolutely necessary, or the chance of successful punch parry is high (i.e. Steve as opponent), setting up the punch parry to do its job in a FLA WD scenario = suicide.

So... why punch parry OUTSIDE of the striking range then?

After a few rounds of matches, your opponent will likely to get used to the rhythm of the FLA WD. To counter FLA WD mixups, opponents have to attack w/ moves of farther reach than Baek's d/f+3, they also need to make sure the timing of the attack was perfect (based on Baek's "ya, ya, ya") to hit Baek before getting CH'd by d/f+3. What FLA punch parry does, is exactly to destroy the predictable timing of the FLA WD - one of FLA WD's biggest flaws. In addition, the sudden stop of the forward motion will cause your opponent to attack prematurely and whiff their attack within d/f+3 punishable range, making them prone to any post-whiff attacks.

To practice FLA punch parry carefully, you can work on this sequence

d/f+3~f d/f+3~f FLA b+1+2 d/f+3~f FLA b+1+2 and so on
(short notation: d/f+3~FLA WD~PP~WD~PP~)


Once you are good w/ each, then you might want to try practicing this sequence:

d/f+3~f d/f+3~f FLA b+1+2 d/f+3~U ssl FLA d/f+3~f FLA b+1+2 FLA d/f+3~d ssr FLA d/f+3 and so on
(short notation: d/f+3~FLA WD~PP~SSL~WD~PP~SSR~and repeat)


It will take a shit load of time and effort to complete this practice, but once it's done, it will shut down opponent's offensive game during your FLA WD. FLA SS WD causes opp whiff off-axis, and FLA PP causes opp whiff in front of you. It's up to you to punish w/ whatever you feel comfortable. After causing opponent whiff a few times, they will be too scared to dish out any moves in retaliation, making Offensive FLA an unstoppable force.

The bad part of PP now is that you can't go into FLA from it right away, so df+3 right out of PP takes a bit of time now as compared to in DR.

This will, as said by NoodleHead, require a shit load of practice, possibly months to get down, but once you're down with it, go destroy opponents!

After this I have three topics left: general strategy, a detailed movelist breakdown, and team synergy. I'll do them in that order. So if you have any info, questions, or you saw I had any typos, please feel free to post.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Feb 20th, 2013 at 00:47

Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
Marin
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#28 “Quote” Edit Post
@Budding Great post!

Love the stuff about his range from 1 to 15, I have no idea how you have tested it, but it looks pretty accurate to me. Never knew FLA f3 had a bigger range than FLA f4... Could you maybe extend it to include the range of 1, 2, 3 and 4?

This thread is now stickied.
Signature TTT2 Baek & Leo Combo Vid
T6BR Baek Combo Vid reupload

Originally posted by Budding Fighter
Keep guessing, till my db+3,3~f damage accumulates, idiot.
Budding Fighter
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#29 “Quote” Edit Post
THANKS!
Well I recorded all of the moves I listed and displayed them onto my laptop screen and compared them . Yeah, FLA f+3 has more range than FLA f+4.
Will do so!
Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
Budding Fighter
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From: New Zealand
#30 “Quote” Edit Post
11) General playstyle

Baek, primarily is a pitbull (random FG fact: ALL of fighting game characters who practice Tae Kwon Do are pitbull characters), but is versatile enough to play different styles. You want to focus on oki? He's got it. Whiff punishing? Yes he can do it. Block punishing? Eh; pushbacks make his life a bit difficult (he gets situational punishes off of Kuma ff+2 or Heihachi ff+2 unless walls involved), but for the most part he's good. Poking? He may not be T6 BR Alisa, but he can certainly poke.

Based on the vids I've watched of Baek players, as well as my own experimentation, here's some general, basic playstyles of Baek.

Turtle:
Baek is a decent turtle. He's no Bruce, Mishima, or even Paul in punishing (whom I consider to be the best punishers in the game), but he can punish stuff fairly decently. His movement is also pretty average, but b+3 is one of the best evasive 'attacks' in the game, second to only SSR AOP (just because AOP crushes highs too). This makes him a huge trouble for characters with shitty tracking to their left *coughLarscough*.

I've made a list of his punishers here if you want to know about that.

You can also play keepout in your turtle game with throwing out magic 4's and WS 4's and hoping to hit them (or CH them in the case of magic 4) so that you can get back onto the offensive, which is where I and most Baek players believe he belongs.

Pitbull:
Baek is one of the best pitbulls in the game, and one of the reasons I say that is because he can poke solidly, while being able to turn the heat up in a jiffy and put on pressure, not through frames (on block, obviously), but through mental pressure and guessing games. His tracking is also a bit okayish (he's no Jin/Raven/Steve who make you play a linear game at all times) but most of the moves you'll be using are the tracking moves, you should really not have am insane amount of trouble.

Tracking
Baek's tracking is average IMO. Some of his basic pokes don't track incredibly well, and most of his tracking moves are from FLA (I think this might be credited to the fact that whenever you go into FLA, you auto align with the opponent).

df+1 tracks to his left slightly, and the 3 extension will realign with the opponent (credit: CaCarmen)
b+4 tracks to his left really well (credit: CaCarmen)
df+3 tracks to his left really well (the followup kick can be SSR by enemy though if they're not Marduk)
d+3 tracks to his left slightly (credit: CaCarmen)
(2),2_bb+2 tracks to his left fairly well
b+4 tracks to his left really well (credit: CaCarmen)
FLA uf+3 is steppable during startup but tracks to his left towards the hit frames (credit: CaCarmen)
f+3+4 tracks both ways (homing)
FLA f+3 tracks almost 100% both ways
ff+4 tracks both ways (homing)
d+4 tracks both sides really well (credit: CaCarmen)
df+2 tracks to his right slightly d+4 (credit: CaCarmen)
db+2 tracks sidewalk but not sidestep (credit: CaCarmen)

ff+3: This is a special case. The kick itself is hella linear, but since it's a dash attack, it can be made to track by extending the dash.

His basic pokes track fairly well and if you're in a FLA pressure situation, because FLA itself has a tendency to track, you should not have an insane amount of trouble making them play a linear game. They still will try to SS (IMO they should SW more, because they can avoid db+3 that way) so be really careful, and don't be afraid to throw out those FLA f+3's out there if you expect them to step/walk. Also when not in FLA and involved in poking wars, please dash before your moves. It'll help your cause. Seriously.

There are several styles of pitbulling I've seen:

(1) T4 style pitbulling
I call this T4 style because essentially, the gameplan is poke poke sidestep poke sidewalk poke poke poke or whatever. They will keep pressuring you with safe df+1's, safe df+4's, relatively safe d+4's (if they've got the generic low, that is), and sidewalk to see if you whiff. It's the safest way of poking in terms of punishment (since you're not really throwing out stuff that is even below -5 on block unless you're doing lows).
If you're doing this, I suggest being unpredictable in your pattern. It can still be crushed. They can anticipate the SS and throw out a move that tracks that way (as an eg: for Baek, if enemy pokes then SSR, he can do ff+4,3 into whatever)
The moves you'll be doing in this playstyle are:
df+4,4
df+1
d+1 (underrated; even though it's linear, it's really good because it's hella safe)
d+4 (occasionally d+4,3)
Do not feel limited to those moves, however. Throw out whatever you want to. If it's working for you, great.
This style of poking, in my experience, is a transitional way into:

(2)FLA pressure
Our friend Marin has made an EXCELLENT post about Baek's FLA pressure game, which is HERE.
Mr Taliban also talks a bit about FLA pressure against button pressers HERE.

(3) FLA mindgames
Ok, now that you've scared them into not pressing any buttons, you are set to go. Mindgames have begun, and you're free to do anything that's not overly stupid.
Along with your FLA pressure tools (never forget them), use df+3~f as well. It's a great tool to screw your opponent with. Some players will listen to your character (in our case, Baek), and try to deduce your pattern so as to crush it. Since df+3~f makes the same 'ya' noise as FLA 3,3~f and db+3,3~f (the db+3,3~f seems random, as he makes quite a lot of noises while doing that move), it throws your opponent off, and whatever little advantage they had by blocking anything, is all gone because of the hesitation you created (H-stun).
The FLA grab is also really good. f+2~3 is how I do it, but you can do f+2+3 as well. The reason I do it by f+2~3 is because the grab comes out 'faster' (think of Jack-5 5 frame uf+1+2 in 5.0) and thus is harder to break.

Now that we know all this about FLA pressure, mindgames and how to be a pitbull with him, you might be wondering, "This info is all good, but how do I approach my opponent?"

(4) Approaching your opponent
There are several ways to do this. You can WD into WS 4 HC'd 4,3~f (HC'd = Hit confirmed) into FLA pressure. The problem with this is that WS 4 doesn't have amazing range, and there are rare instances where WS 4 will hit but the second hit of the axe kick will miss and you'll get launched. Still this is the safest way to get in.
You can also FLA WD and try to get in (this only really works best when you have a solid grip of FLA WD, and thus is the most advanced way - and the riskiest - of trying to approach).
The other way is by using iWR 3, or slash kick. Baek's slash kick is cancellable into FLA, and there are certain instances where you can use an uninterruptable slash kick as a means to get in. The problem with that is iWR 3 is really slow (25 frames at it's fastest) and it's floatable, and iWR3 ~f is really easy to launch if the opponent predicts it.
The moves that allow for the above methods to get in (well you can do them in the open field, but it's a bit risky) rather safely are:
WS 3+4
df+3,4 (this one is a special case and we'll talk about this later)
the 3 ender of his FLA strings (the one cancellable into FLA)
ff+4,3

As far as iWR 3 from df+3,4 is concerned, you can't make the opponent have to block the slash kick (they are just too far away); in that case, iWR 3~f is pretty much the way to go.
It is really up to you as to what method you want to use. If you were/are a Mishima player, you might want to WD into WS 4. If you're a King/AK/Chang player you might want to use iWR 3, or if you know what you're doing, you might want to look at FLA WD. All of those methods can be stuffed if the opponent knows what you're doing, so mixing it up is pretty necessary.

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 19th, 2013 at 11:40

Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
CaCarmen
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#31 “Quote” Edit Post
Nice, good read. The stuff on what catches sidewalk is especially helpful... nice to know FLA3 still tracks.

The team synergy one looks like it might be a pain to write.
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#32 “Quote” Edit Post
@CaCarmen I actually am not a 100% sure on FLA 3 tracking, as I was getting mixed results. Someone else might want to test it in situations such as:
2,3 (blocked) FLA 3,3
2,3 (hit) FLA 3,3
4,3,3~f (blocked) FLA 3,3

About team synergy, haha yeah it will be. Contributions from other players would be super!

Also, I was thinking of consolidating all of this info into a PDF file, and for that wanted to make an overview of Baek. I've put a bit of it in the opening post, and in the next few days I'll try and consolidate all the info I have in a guide fashion.

Here's some general matchup info, not sure if we need to post this on the front page or later or whenever:
MATCHUPS:
Best matchups:
Jack (Jack has no real panic button, no low crush that isn't >25 frames, is really big so can't move if Baek is in his grill, it becomes a game of paper/scissors/rock, plus punch parry shuts him down real bad IMO, Baek vs Jack is so good!)

Worst matchups:
Capos (CaCarmen might want to share why, but they shut down Baek real bad, even though Baek gets d+4,3,3,3~f on pretty much all RLX transitions on block)
Mishimas (the 3 ender on block = -14 = launch from a good Mishima, plus their reliance on movement kinda makes it hard for Baek to get in; I haven't really sat down a played a good Mishima so I can't really compare)
Bryan (JU, decent movement, great keepout and long range game)
Feng (you just have to turtle in this match; almost all of his good pokes are <-5, and his backswing blow and b+3+4~3 are so scary it's not even funny, plus that f+3,4 just destroys as a whiff punisher, sure he can't block punish really well)

EDIT: Added some oki off of 2+4~b. Really good stuff!
Also, setups from f+2+3 and df+3+4 airthrow added.
Someone might want to test what all you get if they raw tag/tag crash off of all of his throws? Please?

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Apr 13th, 2013 at 01:55

Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
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CaCarmen
Iron Fist God
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1078
From: China
PSN: cacacarmen
#33 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Budding Fighter
Someone might want to test what all you get if they raw tag/tag crash off of all of his throws? Please?


Alright, I did what I could. First of all, raw tagging is beaten by just... doing nothing and waiting for them to come in and doing an uppercut . So I didn't bother going over it. As for tag crashes (these were all tested in open field):

left throw: This one offers the most options. A simple backstep can bait a tag crash, which can be punished by a CD3. You can also jump backwards, and then do a ws2,1 (this is nice because it requires no timing or backstepping 'skill' on the player's part, and looks silly). Sidestep options can be used, including b3, so you can try to find a way to FLA sidestep for a backturned string (though there is a certain amount of distance that may make it easy for BT strings to whiff.)

right throw, f2+3 (human cannonball): By not moving a tag crash will whiff in front you of, netting a free cd3 or whatever. You can even forward dash in once and dash back out to bait them to do a delayed tag crash, pretty cool.

2+4b: Hold back to turn around, tag crash will whiff in front.

db1+3: Unfortunetly, backstepping isn't an option here, due to the close distance. On the flip side, the distance allows you to easily SSR, b3 and go for a BT FLA string to punish. This seemed to be much easier to punish with a BT combo than the left throw, so thats good to keep in mind due to the oki this throws gives anyway.

By the way, I feel throw oki should be expanded to cover all forced knockdown options (or they should be covered in another section). Certain moves, such as 1+2,4, b2, and some moves on CH ground the opponent in situations that can be treated similar to throws (putting them in a grounded state without access to tech roll usually). That's the way I've looked over stuff with my other characters. Off the top of my head Baek gets close range knockdowns (i.e. not pushing the character to the other end of the screen) from:

1+2,4
b2
d2
CH FLAb3

I'm probably missing a dozen...

BTW, I remember someone saying that ub4 hits sideroll, is that true?

Baek (and Hwo) versus Jack is like, lol, the only time that TKDs have a matchup in thier favor. I remember Baek vs Hwo being noticibly bad for Hwo in BR (though Hwo's b2 would actually step Baek's low from df4,4 strings), whereas Baek vs Asuka was the opposite. Never really thought too much about either though.

As for Capoeiras versus Baek, between random b2, random df2, random instant RLX, random db3+4, random db1+2, heck... Capos have so many options to deal with Baek's pressure game that the Baek player is forced to play super conservatively whereas we can just... do whatever we want. Add to the fact that, even if the Capo player is a mixup style player, they still will know how to space effectively and use uf4 and other moves to keep the opponent away (its a skill that comes with playing the character), which is not really in Baek's favor.

Yes d4,3,3 does punish b3,3 and ws1,3... but its like, only 16 damage (9 or so more than a generic d4). By comparison Bob can do b2,2, the first hit will hit normal RLX for 10 points, but float both HSP and b3,3_ws1,3 into a juggle which can be bounded, which is even scarier now due to TA (I don't know how to play Bob, but I just randomly made a juggle to punish b3,3 with b2,2 1 ff2! (Baek: uf3,4,3) Bob d2 for like 46 damage. I can imagine an actual juggle doing 20 more than that).

Also, it seems 1,2,3,3,3f on block is even into FLA... can someone confirm this? Yes I know its duckable after the jabs, but it does start off jab cross and if they don't know or forget to duck (which even I do... occassionally) so it can be sort of hard to react to when pulled in the middle of a FLA pressure string. I have a little more confidence in using it than df1,3 (though df1,3 is natural, and off of df1, which is just a good move).

Sorry for the long post.

Last edited by CaCarmen on Jan 14th, 2013 at 15:11

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Budding Fighter
^ Thanks AZYG4LYFE!
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1606
From: New Zealand
#34 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by CaCarmen
*Lots of goodness*
Sorry for the long post.

Thanks for the info on punishing tag crashes off throws dude!
I will have to test and see what happens from those KND's. I know 1+2,4 by the wall is really good.
ub+4 tracking is LOL NO status in range, so I don't think so. Maybe dash into ub+4 but I don't think it's such a great idea.
I didn't realize Capos vs Baek was that bad. I mean, I played against a dude playing Christie and was forced to just be able to sneak in a df+4 whenever I could, but that seems like a real terrible match. Plus db+3+4 is BS; crushes highs and evades some mids.
To float Capos out of b+3,3 do you needed a fast (12-13 frames?) move that hit them in RLX? I'm not sure on that.
1,2,3,3,3~f on block is -1, similar to 4,3,3~f. Credit: rbnorway.org

Last edited by Budding Fighter on Jan 15th, 2013 at 23:29

Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
Marin
Sage
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 498
From: Netherlands
PSN: Marin9892
#35 “Quote” Edit Post
I don't think that there are really awful matchups in Tekken in general as supposed to a matchup like say Ryu vs Zangief in SF2, which heavily favors Ryu (I love SF2 ). Games in Tekken can quickly favor a player if he outperforms his opponent with pure spacing and other basics.

I do think that there are certain bad matchups, where one character simply has better attacks than the other character at all ranges. That's why I think that Hwoarang is Baek's worst match-up. Baek is one of the best at close range, but Hwo is just so much better at close range than Baek. Hwo is also much better at mid range (Baek's df4 range) and even at just outside of df4 range Hwo has the upper hand with his homing move (I forgot the notation).

I tried looking at some high level footage of Baek vs Hwo, but even there it seems that players are having difficulties with the matchup. Here is Jung Pa Dak (good Hwo/Baek player) playing against Knee (obviously a good player) with Hwo/Jin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ6zID-oJu0

Look at how good his Baek vs Jin is @11:35 and how the Baek vs Hwo match goes in the following round.

[/rant]

Last edited by Marin on Jan 15th, 2013 at 10:52

Signature TTT2 Baek & Leo Combo Vid
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Originally posted by Budding Fighter
Keep guessing, till my db+3,3~f damage accumulates, idiot.
Budding Fighter
^ Thanks AZYG4LYFE!
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1606
From: New Zealand
#36 “Quote” Edit Post
I agree with you on the matchup thing. This is Tekken not SF where Shin Akuma > everyone haha.

I am really surprised about your comment on Hwoarang owning Baek. My only point in this match is that Baek has a hopkick (no matter how shitty it is, he does have a hope-kick which Hwoarang doesn't punish for extremely good reward - Hwoarang gets uf+3+4,4 which is solid damage but only +1 on hit, might as well be neutral) and Hwoarang doesn't.
They both lock down opponents pretty well. Only problem is Baek relies on a lot more mental lockdown than Hwoarang does (herp derp RFS 2,4~f +6 on block herp derp).
BTW that homing move is b+4. Herp derp stuff. i16, RFF transition on hit, KNDc, (barely) safe, crap ton of frames on hit. That shit is taster's choice.
Also, I sent you a PM, sir.
Signature St. George loves my attitude! ("You know too much." - azL) Everything will remain at 50% of its ideal size.
"Here son do a slight dash after ff4,3 into 4,3,4 when they're flying through the air and those Nina players will stop teasing your execution at school." - Skeering
"If Baek gets your back you basically die." - Bronson
"At the bottom of the tier list, it's hard to hear the bitching from the top." - raybonekilla
Mr.Taliban
5th Dan
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 48
#37 “Quote” Edit Post
the problem with baek is his lack of fast homing move. for ex. lili 1,2 into quick ss uf+3 or another 1,2. after lili' 1,2, baek doesnt have a move that locks her down and prevent her from doing the quick ss. not even baek df+1 would catch her. its frustrating when you get to play characters with good sidesteps and they just quick ss right after every poke they do and every move you throw out completely misses. miguel doesnt have that problem. he can just retaliate with df+1 and shut ssr down. hwoarang can do df+4. i have been playing ranked matches with baek as my main and get to a crucial situation where i knew for sure the opponent is going to do exactly that and i threw a df+1 thinking it would catch her ss but ended up losing the match. im sure you guys have gone through the same situation like this before. point is, even if you are a hell of better than your opponent, the character would sometimes be a deciding factor of you winning or losing the game. there will come a time when you will think, you lost not because of your skill but because of the character you were using. in my case i blamed baek for his df+1 not being able to catch SSR. LOL
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Marin
Sage
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 498
From: Netherlands
PSN: Marin9892
#38 “Quote” Edit Post
As requested to me by Budding Fighter, here is a little guide to Baek's FLA pressure game in TTT2.

FLA pressure game

As many of you T5, T5DR and T6 Baek players have noticed, Baek's FLA pressure game has changed drastically in TTT2. This drastic change has its roots in a change of Baek's overall game plan. To better understand FLA pressure in TTT2, it's worth noting what FLA pressure used to be, what has changed and how they eventually balanced it out.

Before TTT2

In the old days, Baek was mainly focused around the string ender mix-ups. With Baek's "strings", I'm referring to the moves

- df+4,4
- ws+4,4
- f+4
- d+4,3,3
- FLA 3,4,4
- ws+3,4,4
- 3,3,4,4
- 1,2,3,3,4,4
- uf,N+3,3,4,4.

All these moves have one thing in common: they all have string enders. You can continue all the strings with either a mid ender, a low ender or a FLA cancel ender (which looks like a mid at first). This creates two possible mix-ups: the mid/cancel and the mid/low mix-ups. As the low is quite unsafe, and even low parryable on reaction, the latter mix-up is usually avoided. However the mid/cancel mix-up was a genuinely scary mix-up, since a cancel would lead into more low/mid/throw mix-ups from FLA, but most importantly the mid-ender had a CH stun and would crush anything if the opponent would attack after the string before it was blocked. Thus the opponent had to think before attacking because of the fear of a CH bait.

After a succesful FLA cancel however, Baek couldn't really stay in FLA for too long. He could only go for another string into mid/cancel mix-up or he could take a safer approach and only keep the opponent away with some safe mid pokes. Only in T6 did Baek get FLA db+3,3~f FLA, which would extend his FLA rushdowns by only just a bit (after all it can be low parried). So to summarize:

Before TTT2, it was easier to get up close into FLA stance, but it was more difficult to rushdown your opponent.

After TTT2

In TTT2, a new attack emerged: FLA 3,3~f FLA. It made it possible to link Baeks best mid from FLA, FLA 3, back into FLA to continue pressure. So adding to this FLA db+3,3~f FLA (which is a low), Baek can now very easily stay in FLA and can do very scary rushdowns. However, to balance this the people at Namco decided to weaken his mid/cancel mix-ups by removing the CH stun on the mid-enders (and replacing it with a wall splat) and by making the mid-ender slower, so that it's easier to sidestep and to make it interruptable by jabs. So now the situation is:

In TTT2, it's more difficult to get up close into FLA stance, but it's easier to rushdown your opponent.

FLA pressure game

Enough backstory, let's focus on the FLA pressure game. The main goal of FLA rushdown is very simple: to guess (or determine!) whether your opponent expects a mid, low or a throw, and react accordingly. Use highs as quick moves to interrupt your opponent if he tries to attack, while still remaining at close range. His best moves are:

Highs: 1, 4
Mids: FLA 3,3~f (also df+4,4, df+1, f+2, etc...)
Lows: db+3,3~f
Throws: FLA throw (FLA f+2+3)

A good rule of thumb to keep in mind when rushing down is that if the previous attack was a hit, then the opponent is more likely to be defensive afterwards, and if the previous attack was blocked, then the opponent is more likely to be offensive afterwards. Therefore:

The key to good FLA pressure is being able to read your opponents next move very well in order to make most of your attacks hit, to continue the rushdown.

The only advice that I can give about improving your reading abilities is to play Baek lots of times, to figure out standard blocking patterns (often times you'll see mid-mid-low, that's why low-low-mid is a very easy and basic FLA pressure string) and to figure out your opponents blocking habits.

I have 5 years of experience with playing Baek in tourneys, and this is basically how I view Baek's FLA pressure game. I really hope that this was helpful in any way =P

Last edited by Marin on Jan 16th, 2013 at 17:08

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Originally posted by Budding Fighter
Keep guessing, till my db+3,3~f damage accumulates, idiot.
Mr.Taliban
5th Dan
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 48
#39 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Marin
A good rule of thumb to keep in mind when rushing down is that if the previous attack was a hit, then the opponent is more likely to be defensive afterwards, and if the previous attack was blocked, then the opponent is more likely to be offensive afterwards.


i would like to add something about this based on my experience. sometimes you will encounter opponents who does the exact opposite of what is written here so i think you gotta have to device another strategy for these people. you gotta have some sort of plan B. example is ws+443~f on hit. Since the opponent is on hit status, you may think theyll be more defensive afterwards so db+33~f or fla grab or even df+3~f is a good move to throw in this situation. BUT SOME people would attack right away with their WS moves or hopekicks since people think that because youre in FLA, you should be at a disadvantage(back in br, baek kills those people who dare disrespect him by trying to do a move while baek is FLA). In this situation, plan A is ineffective and will get you killed. plan B is, to kill hopkicks, use 433~f to score a counter hit. if the opponent does i11 WS move, kill it with a jab(433~f will clash in this situation resulting to your opponent dealing more damage than you). 123~f or 23 is your safest bet(or 22 if your opponent just wouldnt learn).
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Marin
Sage
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 498
From: Netherlands
PSN: Marin9892
#40 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Mr.Taliban
i would like to add something about this based on my experience. sometimes you will encounter opponents who does the exact opposite of what is written here so i think you gotta have to device another strategy for these people. you gotta have some sort of plan B. example is ws+443~f on hit. Since the opponent is on hit status, you may think theyll be more defensive afterwards so db+33~f or fla grab or even df+3~f is a good move to throw in this situation. BUT SOME people would attack right away with their WS moves or hopekicks since people think that because youre in FLA, you should be at a disadvantage(back in br, baek kills those people who dare disrespect him by trying to do a move while baek is FLA). In this situation, plan A is ineffective and will get you killed. plan B is, to kill hopkicks, use 433~f to score a counter hit. if the opponent does i11 WS move, kill it with a jab(433~f will clash in this situation resulting to your opponent dealing more damage than you). 123~f or 23 is your safest bet(or 22 if your opponent just wouldnt learn).

You are right, but if your opponent attacks after a move with big + frames on hit (ws+4,4,3~f is +5/+6 on hit) then I'd say he's playing way more aggressive than your average player. Against those types of players, you can just keep them in + frames constantly and win with perfects every round. Your average player is more likely not to take that risk so he'd be more defensive. That's why you can keep that in mind as a _general_ rule of thumb and you should always figure out your opponents individual blocking habits.
Signature TTT2 Baek & Leo Combo Vid
T6BR Baek Combo Vid reupload

Originally posted by Budding Fighter
Keep guessing, till my db+3,3~f damage accumulates, idiot.

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