Punishing tagging

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noodalls
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Joined: May 2003
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#1 “Quote” Edit Post
A thread putting together some ideas for punishing tag ins, tag outs and tagcrashes.

df+2 b,B+3+4 will punish tagcrash, opponent cannot interrupt.

CH b+3,3 RLX 2 d+2,3 RLX sideroll will avoid tag crash, then can do RLX 4~3.

Rodeo then u+3, beats KND 3,4 and tag crash, will beat tag in delayed.
tuch_dis
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#2 “Quote” Edit Post
The RLX side roll is a big help. I will try this after a wall tag assault and end with d+2,3 instead of u/f+3+4 and do a roll to see if it avoids it at the wall.
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DOF
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#3 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
df+2 b,B+3+4 will punish tagcrash, opponent cannot interrupt.

What is df+2 b,B+3+4? Do you mean, df+2, opponent is knocked down, then you do the b,b+3+4 unblockable?
And opponent tag crashes, you're unblockable charge will hit them once they are in? If yes, wow, that's awesome. Maybe we can do it not only from df+2, but from other moves as well? Perhaps the b,b+3+4 will never be interrupted by tag-crash?
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CaCarmen
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#4 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by noodalls
A thread putting together some ideas for punishing tag ins, tag outs and tagcrashes.

df+2 b,B+3+4 will punish tagcrash, opponent cannot interrupt.

CH b+3,3 RLX 2 d+2,3 RLX sideroll will avoid tag crash, then can do RLX 4~3.

Rodeo then u+3, beats KND 3,4 and tag crash, will beat tag in delayed.


I was trying the d2,3 into RLX sideroll to avoid tag crash, I couldn't get this to work a single time, regardless of combo or stage positioning... a real shame, since it seems super cool. I hope I'm just doing something wrong here.

HOWEVER, this thread got me to try some things. After d2,3 after bounding a juggle in the open (not near the wall), what you can do to bait tag crash (and something I didn't realize before) is roll back and then ws3... this is super good because it works even after very, very long juggles (i.e. double hopkick, b3,3, rlx2,4! HH with Hwo...) and because after a juggle like that, d2,3 plus the RLX3 is by far max damage (uf3+4 will not hit etc.).

On a side note, something I noticed is that the oki after d2,3 does not work the same way anymore. Before, if I remember correctly, the RLX3 was guaranteed if they did ANYTHING but stay down, where it would whiff. Now it HITS grounded, but can be blocked by standing up and crouch guarding... so you have to mix with a RLXf3+4 or RLX2 (obviously, RLX3~4 will whiff). Still, getting the RLXf3+4 is 33 damage and d2,3 by itself is one point less than uf4 (which I think is max normally), so its still good.

Similarly, after B! RLX2,4, you can hold back to get out of HSP and do a ws3 to deal with tag crash. Also a good juggle option because of HSPd3 (+10) and HSPb3 (+15).

After B! HSP(2), 4, 3, you can elect to not do the last sweep and just get up, if they tag crash then they will whiff way in front of you. I guess mixup with ss3d to put them in a mixup if they tech... I think I'm the only one who uses this ender anyway.

However, after RLX2,(f3), RLX2, (f4) etc. etc. tag crash is unavoidable. The only thing you can do is RLX2 and then back off, which kind of sucks since you don't even get a chance to go for a reset with qcf3 if you do so.

The df2 trick is super cool, that unblockable does seem to be unavoidable in that case. Unfortunetly, so far df2 seems the best option for it since other moves don't put you at the right position for it, hopefully we can get more into it.

I was looking into baiting tag crash after Christie's throws (since they lead into so much damage), but unfortunetly, could not get anything to work. The ONLY thing I got was a well timed b2, which just whiffs but avoids the tag crash.

After both df2 and rodeo, you can back off and go for a ws3 (or df3+4, but that seems to not always guarantee a juggle in this case) if they come in.

Good thread, tag crash kind of is the option to beat Capo's oki game, so hopefully we can find more ways to keep people down!
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CaCarmen
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#5 “Quote” Edit Post
I gues nothing's happened in this thread, anyway, something I was messing around with is after Christie's left throw you can back jump or back flip to avoid tag crash. Jumping gives you a guaranteed ws1,3 or ws2... though it looks silly when you guess wrong. Back flip is awesome but gives nothing, I kept trying backflip into HSP but couldn't ever get the cancel to work ? Unfortunetly, off a right throw the only thing you can do is just time a ssr correctly (which is tough).
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
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subt-L
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#6 “Quote” Edit Post
at wall, any qcf+3 ender, ssr will make Tag Crash whiff. qcf+3 should bt punish, or if you're bold, run up b+3,3 for max damage.
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CaCarmen
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#7 “Quote” Edit Post
After a standard balcony break staple (b3+4 qcf3) you can elect not to do the qcf3 and instead backstep once to punish a tag in. Basic stuff, but whats cool is you can also do the backflip (ub) into HSP. I doubt you can punish with the launcher (d3+4) but I'll test with a friend tonight to see.

I really wish we had some options to beat tag crash at the wall when using d2,3 or b3,3...
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
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devil_jun
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#8 “Quote” Edit Post
After b+3,3 as wall hits I've interrupted tag crash with RLX 4, 3+4~3 for a bound on the wall. I followed with HSP f+1, u/f+3+4. I'm not sure if the OP delayed their tag crash, but I will do some testing.

I'll add these to the test list as well. I play Christie/Bruce so these will likely be tested with them.

1. Resets to punish tagging instead of teching while being combo'd.
2. Tag Crash after throws.
3. Tag crash after b+3,3_d+2,3 at the wall.
4. Tag crash after combos ending with d+2,3 / floats to prevent regular tag out.
5. Oki options from Bruce's 1+3~5
CaCarmen
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#9 “Quote” Edit Post
I'll test what you mentioned next time I get a chance to practice mode (maybe tonight?)

On the things you mentioned, I've done a lot of testing in the past, I'll share what I've found.

1. The moment an opponent tag crashes they will hit you out of a successful reset.
2. I think I posted these above (at least with Christie). Anyway off the top of my head, the best way to punish after Christie's 1 or 2 throw is to just time a sidestep and go for a back throw or b+3,3 in the back. The only other way I remember is doing b+2 which will avoid the tag crash but not do anything Maybe b+4 into some extension to work but I worry it might be too slow.
3. b+3,3 at the wall allows you to avoid tag crash with the RLX roll (RLX u or d) but you don't get anything. Other possible options that I don't remember if they work or not are RLX 3+4, RLX 4~3, RLX f+3+4, or b+3,3~5. d+2,3 just doesn't work with anything, unfortunetly.
4. After d+2,3 roll back and punish tag crash with ws+3 (very consistant). Which floats are you referring to?
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"
devil_jun
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#10 “Quote” Edit Post
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm exploring getting combo resets if the opponents opts to "quick tag out" when they touch the ground in juggles.

I'm not sure if this would work but something like.

qcf+3, qcf+3, b+3,3 RLX 2,4~b HSP f <B> RLX 2 (op mashing 5) qcf+3, b+3,3 RLX 2,4~5<B> then TA of your choice.

I want all of this to hit the same character of theirs and not their partner. I've punished tag crashes with this by backdash cancel into iWS+3 when their crash whiffs.

I missed your post of Christie's throw options. Good stuff. If you have anything you would like tested post it up and I'll give it a shot as soon as I get to my console.
CaCarmen
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#11 “Quote” Edit Post
I think a quick tag out (not that anyone quick tags from grounded, at least not right away from Capos) ends up counting as a quick back roll, so you get a combo as they try to get out. Thats what I *remember*... unfortunetly I don't have a console anymore so its hard for me to confirm.

I would double check the RLX4 punishing tag crash at the wall after b+3,3. I really don't see that working if the opponent does an instant tag crash (which is the only tag crash situation you can prepare for realistically in practice mode, punishing delayed tag crash honestly relies a lot more on experience).

Honestly the biggest problem with Capos I feel was how tag crash beats RLX at the wall so well, especially after spikes d+2,3 and b+4,4~d. W! b+3,3 you can use a RLX roll if the b+3,3 hits the opponent high enough on the wall (d+3~3 I guess would be the same). b+3,3~5 doesn't seem to work. Thats all from memory but I haven't seen anything to convince me that there is a way to beat tag crash other than not being in RLX at the wall.
Signature "老外的LEI很烦人了"
"还是换人吧"
"你心中怨念深重,怒火冲天门。导致你铁拳技能急速下降"
"我早就说过,你换几个普通角色你就发现你也很弱。。 "
"卡波拉门"

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