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- Jin Kazama
- TTT2 Jin Kazama Changelog...
TTT2 Jin Kazama Changelog...
Played a little bit T2 Unlimited the past few days. I don't know if this change was made in TTT2 or in T2 Unlimited, but at least I didnt notice that the last hit of 214 now is delayable. Quite good!
My opponents D+4 still got launched on block (by a 14 frame launcher, played jin vs jin/bob) when I played so it might not be safer on block, but what else could they have changed really, using that wording? If they really made it faster, does that even make sense game play wise? Will investigare further later. Heres to hoping its only -14 now
.
On a side note, I was having some discussions with Barcas, who has been using a lot of different characters in TTT2 including Jin. He said that in his opinion, Jin might be the strongest character in TTT2! I didnt like Jin in the beginning of T2, but after playing more I can begin to understand the reasoning behind this theory at least.
Reasons given include his combos being strong post bound, even without a partner, and basically his good stuff from T6 are now even better and also fits well in the TTT2 system (like when it comes to tagging, his launchers and other moves makes catching tag ins or outs easy, and he also has his parry which basically makes the guessing game after raw tags much much better for him than for other characters). So his weakness from T6, (low dmg without wall and also short carry), is now a strength? A number of players have managed to get a high rank jin so it could also make sense objectively. So put that in the change log?
My opponents D+4 still got launched on block (by a 14 frame launcher, played jin vs jin/bob) when I played so it might not be safer on block, but what else could they have changed really, using that wording? If they really made it faster, does that even make sense game play wise? Will investigare further later. Heres to hoping its only -14 now
.On a side note, I was having some discussions with Barcas, who has been using a lot of different characters in TTT2 including Jin. He said that in his opinion, Jin might be the strongest character in TTT2! I didnt like Jin in the beginning of T2, but after playing more I can begin to understand the reasoning behind this theory at least.
Reasons given include his combos being strong post bound, even without a partner, and basically his good stuff from T6 are now even better and also fits well in the TTT2 system (like when it comes to tagging, his launchers and other moves makes catching tag ins or outs easy, and he also has his parry which basically makes the guessing game after raw tags much much better for him than for other characters). So his weakness from T6, (low dmg without wall and also short carry), is now a strength? A number of players have managed to get a high rank jin so it could also make sense objectively. So put that in the change log?
Is TTT2:UNLIMITED out already? I mean, I've already seen the Jin changes and the Solo play but the machine in my local arcades doesn't say "Tekken Tag Tournament 2: UNLIMITED". I think it's not UNLIMITED because the life bar of what I'm playing is darkblue, not green.
Anyway, I haven't seen much changes for Jin so far. The only one that's very noticable is his CDS+1+2 launcher move.
There were two changes for the move, just like what Google Translator says..
1. The opponent's launch for the move is changed. In the old one, you could barely follow up with another move because it launches the opponent too damn far. The updated one launches the opponent just like how eCD+1 does... so... YAY!
2. In the old one, there's nothing special in hitting the opponent in mid-air. In the updated one, it makes the opponent spinning like crazy. Kinda like when Devil Jin's u+1+2 laser when it hit the opponent in mid-air. That new animation is just so lovely!
As for the other moves, there was no difference in the KD animations or stuff. For 2,4 and b+4, perhaps it really is just a simple damage increase. For d+4, I haven't tried it out. It's either a faster move update, or a fater recovery update. I am yet to know.
That's all for now. I'll see you guys soon!
Anyway, I haven't seen much changes for Jin so far. The only one that's very noticable is his CDS+1+2 launcher move.
There were two changes for the move, just like what Google Translator says..
1. The opponent's launch for the move is changed. In the old one, you could barely follow up with another move because it launches the opponent too damn far. The updated one launches the opponent just like how eCD+1 does... so... YAY!
2. In the old one, there's nothing special in hitting the opponent in mid-air. In the updated one, it makes the opponent spinning like crazy. Kinda like when Devil Jin's u+1+2 laser when it hit the opponent in mid-air. That new animation is just so lovely!
As for the other moves, there was no difference in the KD animations or stuff. For 2,4 and b+4, perhaps it really is just a simple damage increase. For d+4, I haven't tried it out. It's either a faster move update, or a fater recovery update. I am yet to know.
That's all for now. I'll see you guys soon!
Hi!
Updating again. Sorry if some of this is not suitable to Jin change log thread.
d+4 is now indeed confirmed to be only -14. Great news!
And I read somewhere on TZ that 214 is now -10? So I tried that out, and nope its still safe. And delayable.
Oh, 2,4 on block is -10 and 1+2 is -14, but I dont remember if those were changed in TTT2 or TTT2U :F .
Forest16: Good question about cd1. Basically as far as I noticed, yes, the only noticable difference is the speed. Ill keep this question in mind next play session.
Regarding the discussion of F+4 and b+3 and CDS tactics.
The frames on f+4 on hit and block could very well be different depending on if you go to CDS or not, so using the normal framedata for f+4 to determine what works and what not works could be hard.
But from experience in the game, its very clear that if the opponent jabs or uses any high attack, he risks being launched by well timed 1+2 or crushed by 4, so he needs to use mid attacks sometimes. And almost all fast mid attacks track far too badly for them to hit CDS2 unless you time it, in effect making them slower. Jins own 1+2 is an exception though since that move is far too great with its three fast hits 8). For low jabs or kicks, u can use CDS 3 but since its high, both it and the opponents move will often miss, resulting in a small advantage for the opponent but not enough for punishing with launcher. For the opponent the problem is reacting fast enough and seeing if the opponent used CDS or not, as well as reacting to if the F+4 hit or not. If you use low jab, it will whiff if the opponent didnt go to CDS and you WILL get launched by jins d+3+4 so you cant use it as a general stopping move here. Also generic low jab will get owned by CDS 2 normally. The damage output of all CDS moves excepting his 2 (unless near wall or sidehit so the opponent cant backroll), is quite adequate compared to their risk here. Some characters can punish CDS 1+2 on block severely so they dont care. and like stooncoold said Jin with his 1+2 doesnt have to be too afraid either.
Also a slight problem for Jin is that CDS4 can potentially be seen on reaction so good mixing is required. But a passive opponent blocking and waiting for it will eventually get owned by the other CDS moves and finally the CDS to CD transition, or simply lose too much momentum by blocking F+4 and not taking advantage of it, making it too spammable.
From the players ive observed, Soyongdori is the best player for using F+4 and the different followups in korea, and he completely wrecks people with his jin and other mishimas, so if you can find his games on tekkencyfren or w/e you should get the feeling. I personally have far less success using the CDS transitions.
And just a general recap on important changes to jins poking strategy, which I think might be the most significant changes to his gameplay from BR to TTT2:
b+2,1 now almost completely crushes jabs if you have advantage. B+2,1 followed by b+2,1 beats jabs, but can be sidewalked if the opponent really commits. This sidewalk can be beaten easily by basic 4, or by doing your own sidestep and then df+1 (hc to 4), or by doing CD1 or CD2 (which will also crush normal jabs with the right, not too difficult, timing). Before, his only reliable fast mid move to do damage after sidestep, as an alternative to the launch punishable d+3+4, was 1+2 which of course still was unsafe. Now we can use df+1 for the same damage in the same situation, and on block its not even bad.
Continuing, basic 4 wins against "every" attack except basic jabs, will float a hopkick, and on hit its now +1 so the situation is almost the same as after b+2,1.
Its very hard to retaliate against jins poking now, because this basic situation is available after so many of Jins moves, as well as after him blocking moves. But keeping range against jin is not easy either because of his great cd moves as well as b+2,1 and F+4 as well as his ability to 'punish' a turtling opponent by using slash kick or db+4 to create pressure. Remember, the opponent cant afford to sidestep too liberally on range because of cd1, cd2, and even cd4.
Thanks for your updates StoonCoold! I honestly didnt even notice that, but was wondering 'why am I dashing so far and jabbing when they are so close to me I could just do laser cannon' .
cheers#
Updating again. Sorry if some of this is not suitable to Jin change log thread.
d+4 is now indeed confirmed to be only -14. Great news!
And I read somewhere on TZ that 214 is now -10? So I tried that out, and nope its still safe. And delayable.
Oh, 2,4 on block is -10 and 1+2 is -14, but I dont remember if those were changed in TTT2 or TTT2U :F .
Forest16: Good question about cd1. Basically as far as I noticed, yes, the only noticable difference is the speed. Ill keep this question in mind next play session.
Regarding the discussion of F+4 and b+3 and CDS tactics.
The frames on f+4 on hit and block could very well be different depending on if you go to CDS or not, so using the normal framedata for f+4 to determine what works and what not works could be hard.
But from experience in the game, its very clear that if the opponent jabs or uses any high attack, he risks being launched by well timed 1+2 or crushed by 4, so he needs to use mid attacks sometimes. And almost all fast mid attacks track far too badly for them to hit CDS2 unless you time it, in effect making them slower. Jins own 1+2 is an exception though since that move is far too great with its three fast hits 8). For low jabs or kicks, u can use CDS 3 but since its high, both it and the opponents move will often miss, resulting in a small advantage for the opponent but not enough for punishing with launcher. For the opponent the problem is reacting fast enough and seeing if the opponent used CDS or not, as well as reacting to if the F+4 hit or not. If you use low jab, it will whiff if the opponent didnt go to CDS and you WILL get launched by jins d+3+4 so you cant use it as a general stopping move here. Also generic low jab will get owned by CDS 2 normally. The damage output of all CDS moves excepting his 2 (unless near wall or sidehit so the opponent cant backroll), is quite adequate compared to their risk here. Some characters can punish CDS 1+2 on block severely so they dont care. and like stooncoold said Jin with his 1+2 doesnt have to be too afraid either.
Also a slight problem for Jin is that CDS4 can potentially be seen on reaction so good mixing is required. But a passive opponent blocking and waiting for it will eventually get owned by the other CDS moves and finally the CDS to CD transition, or simply lose too much momentum by blocking F+4 and not taking advantage of it, making it too spammable.
From the players ive observed, Soyongdori is the best player for using F+4 and the different followups in korea, and he completely wrecks people with his jin and other mishimas, so if you can find his games on tekkencyfren or w/e you should get the feeling. I personally have far less success using the CDS transitions.
And just a general recap on important changes to jins poking strategy, which I think might be the most significant changes to his gameplay from BR to TTT2:
b+2,1 now almost completely crushes jabs if you have advantage. B+2,1 followed by b+2,1 beats jabs, but can be sidewalked if the opponent really commits. This sidewalk can be beaten easily by basic 4, or by doing your own sidestep and then df+1 (hc to 4), or by doing CD1 or CD2 (which will also crush normal jabs with the right, not too difficult, timing). Before, his only reliable fast mid move to do damage after sidestep, as an alternative to the launch punishable d+3+4, was 1+2 which of course still was unsafe. Now we can use df+1 for the same damage in the same situation, and on block its not even bad.
Continuing, basic 4 wins against "every" attack except basic jabs, will float a hopkick, and on hit its now +1 so the situation is almost the same as after b+2,1.
Its very hard to retaliate against jins poking now, because this basic situation is available after so many of Jins moves, as well as after him blocking moves. But keeping range against jin is not easy either because of his great cd moves as well as b+2,1 and F+4 as well as his ability to 'punish' a turtling opponent by using slash kick or db+4 to create pressure. Remember, the opponent cant afford to sidestep too liberally on range because of cd1, cd2, and even cd4.
Thanks for your updates StoonCoold! I honestly didnt even notice that, but was wondering 'why am I dashing so far and jabbing when they are so close to me I could just do laser cannon'
. cheers#
Last edited by BlixtBob on Apr 1st, 2012 at 20:33
Hi again...
LP Sparda> Am playing in Seoul atm! TTT2 unlimited.
About cd1:
Confirmed to the best of my ability that eCD1 indeed either launches higher OR recovers faster than normal CD1; eCD1 into EWHF to jabs is easy, but normal CD1 into EWHF to jabs is hard. On tagbuffered cd1 I could do my staples with AK (cd1 tag, AK cd2) from both normal and electric cd1.
The damage might be higher on eCD1 as well, hard to see. Other differences unknown.
Tested b+4 some in matches. I didnt notice any difference when I got a CH with it. They do fly really far away now but I cant remember how it looked ike before, so it might be the same.
However, I got a theory. You know how there are a few different types of ways kd moves will make the opponents character model interact with the wall? Im just a layman on this, but one type is jins 2,4 where you can be quite far away but always get a wall splat as soon as the opponent touches the wall. Another is laws 3+4 where you can be really far away and get the character model to hit and interact with the wall, but it will slide down uselessly (no followup possible) unless you are really really close. A third, like how b+4 was before at least in my memory, is where the character model will never even interact with the wall if you are too far away or at an angle, just giving you the normal knockdown fly animation even though the wall is right there.
B+4 in TTT2u gives you a kd where the opponent flies really far, and no matter how far he will hit the wall, wall splat, but glide down uselessly unless you're quite close (which means that its "useless" unless you're close to the wall, just like before). So my theory is that this change in properties (if indeed it is a change) will make it easier to get a wall splat when the opponent is off axis, which was close to impossible in BR. Such a troll moe it was! It never ever gave me a victory, but it did get me a few wall splats today.
Further theorizing, it could be fair to buff this move a bit, since compared to other characters moves with similar startup frames this is a bit weak at the wall (although generally safer). Its also quite powerless outside of walls compared to jins other moves, and his other normal strong KD wall splat mid, d+1, feels a lot slower and less useful in game play (so slow I decided to look it up, and the jp TTT mook does say its 21 frames now, though its not 100% accuracte I noticed), and his mid homing move doesnt give him a wall splat. So a buff on b+4 could be justified and fair.
Only!!! its just that theoryfighting b+4 is redundant cuz we already got ourselves the best wall splatting mid move ever: df14!
.
Next time, I will try to confirm or deny the above rant wall of text. I ACTUALLY DONT KNOW YET IF ANY PERCEIVED CHANGE TO THE MOVE IS ONLY IN MY HEAD BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD
((((((
Stoic Steve:
If you can read japanese, there are some character tips and strategies (do this move, dont do this, mix with this) in the TTT2 mook (found in any big bookstore), which quite certainly is useful if you dont know a character but you do know tekken.
But primarily has frame data of all the useful moves INCLUDING PICTURES so you can study up on most of the new moves and strings for each character, punishment lists, general data on the system (frame data for tagging, reversal windows and such. DIDJA KNOW pauls reversal has a 1 frame slower startup than the other characters!? Or that somewhere in tekkens history, could be for TTT2, they changed heihachis reversal from 1 to 3 frames!?).
Best value for money ive ever seen and all I can do is look at the pictures and numbers lol.
cheers#
LP Sparda> Am playing in Seoul atm! TTT2 unlimited.
About cd1:
Confirmed to the best of my ability that eCD1 indeed either launches higher OR recovers faster than normal CD1; eCD1 into EWHF to jabs is easy, but normal CD1 into EWHF to jabs is hard. On tagbuffered cd1 I could do my staples with AK (cd1 tag, AK cd2) from both normal and electric cd1.
The damage might be higher on eCD1 as well, hard to see. Other differences unknown.
Tested b+4 some in matches. I didnt notice any difference when I got a CH with it. They do fly really far away now but I cant remember how it looked ike before, so it might be the same.
However, I got a theory. You know how there are a few different types of ways kd moves will make the opponents character model interact with the wall? Im just a layman on this, but one type is jins 2,4 where you can be quite far away but always get a wall splat as soon as the opponent touches the wall. Another is laws 3+4 where you can be really far away and get the character model to hit and interact with the wall, but it will slide down uselessly (no followup possible) unless you are really really close. A third, like how b+4 was before at least in my memory, is where the character model will never even interact with the wall if you are too far away or at an angle, just giving you the normal knockdown fly animation even though the wall is right there.
B+4 in TTT2u gives you a kd where the opponent flies really far, and no matter how far he will hit the wall, wall splat, but glide down uselessly unless you're quite close (which means that its "useless" unless you're close to the wall, just like before). So my theory is that this change in properties (if indeed it is a change) will make it easier to get a wall splat when the opponent is off axis, which was close to impossible in BR. Such a troll moe it was! It never ever gave me a victory, but it did get me a few wall splats today.
Further theorizing, it could be fair to buff this move a bit, since compared to other characters moves with similar startup frames this is a bit weak at the wall (although generally safer). Its also quite powerless outside of walls compared to jins other moves, and his other normal strong KD wall splat mid, d+1, feels a lot slower and less useful in game play (so slow I decided to look it up, and the jp TTT mook does say its 21 frames now, though its not 100% accuracte I noticed), and his mid homing move doesnt give him a wall splat. So a buff on b+4 could be justified and fair.
Only!!! its just that theoryfighting b+4 is redundant cuz we already got ourselves the best wall splatting mid move ever: df14!
. Next time, I will try to confirm or deny the above rant wall of text. I ACTUALLY DONT KNOW YET IF ANY PERCEIVED CHANGE TO THE MOVE IS ONLY IN MY HEAD BECAUSE OF THIS THREAD
((((((Stoic Steve:
If you can read japanese, there are some character tips and strategies (do this move, dont do this, mix with this) in the TTT2 mook (found in any big bookstore), which quite certainly is useful if you dont know a character but you do know tekken.
But primarily has frame data of all the useful moves INCLUDING PICTURES so you can study up on most of the new moves and strings for each character, punishment lists, general data on the system (frame data for tagging, reversal windows and such. DIDJA KNOW pauls reversal has a 1 frame slower startup than the other characters!? Or that somewhere in tekkens history, could be for TTT2, they changed heihachis reversal from 1 to 3 frames!?).
Best value for money ive ever seen and all I can do is look at the pictures and numbers lol.
cheers#
@BlixtBob
Lol, yeah. Back then, that move was so annoying and almost pointless. I only used it for the pushback but not as a launcher. If it ever hits, I could barely follow up for a juggle. Thanks to Unlimited, it's very useful now.
About the b+4. Back in TK6, it simple looks like Kazuya's 1+2 on hit. If really close to wall, it gives a wallsplat. I used to use it for mixups with d+4 so my opponent has to guess if I'm gonna use d+4 or b+4. The animation looks almost the same so.. yeah. It also slightly crushes high but pretty seldom.
d+1 crushes high but not instantly like Devil Jin's version of d+1. Jin's advantage of d+1 is that it's safe and you can do the d/f+1+2 Punch Parry ("Penetrating Fist" in SFxT
) after it. We use it near the wall. You spike the opponent to the ground (usually with d/f+4 or 1,2,3 AFTER a bound move) then do a mind-game of either d+2 or d+1. Should the opponent choose to stay on the ground, you hit them with the d+2. Should they choose to stand up quickly, the d+2 hits their foot. Should they choose to stand up quickly and crouch to block the d+2, you hit them with d+1 for another wall combo. I think we've already talked about this back in the TK6:BR Thread.
About eCD+1 or CD+1, the site didn't mention anything about it. The site said they changed only 2,4, d+4, b+4, and CDS+1+2. Although yeah, the recovery is faster than the TK6 version since TTT2 non-Unlimited.
@LP SPARDA
Well, I play in the Philippines if you were talking about me.. but.. I dunno.. Who did you see playing Unlimited specifically?
- - - - - - -
Btw, my friends and I have confirmed that d+4 is INDEED just -14f now. So, other Jin players may still be able to punish this move with his ws+2, other characters still have to stick with their 12f or 13f (or whatever) punishers. Unless they also have a 14f (or less) launching punisher.
Lol, yeah. Back then, that move was so annoying and almost pointless. I only used it for the pushback but not as a launcher. If it ever hits, I could barely follow up for a juggle. Thanks to Unlimited, it's very useful now.
About the b+4. Back in TK6, it simple looks like Kazuya's 1+2 on hit. If really close to wall, it gives a wallsplat. I used to use it for mixups with d+4 so my opponent has to guess if I'm gonna use d+4 or b+4. The animation looks almost the same so.. yeah. It also slightly crushes high but pretty seldom.
d+1 crushes high but not instantly like Devil Jin's version of d+1. Jin's advantage of d+1 is that it's safe and you can do the d/f+1+2 Punch Parry ("Penetrating Fist" in SFxT
) after it. We use it near the wall. You spike the opponent to the ground (usually with d/f+4 or 1,2,3 AFTER a bound move) then do a mind-game of either d+2 or d+1. Should the opponent choose to stay on the ground, you hit them with the d+2. Should they choose to stand up quickly, the d+2 hits their foot. Should they choose to stand up quickly and crouch to block the d+2, you hit them with d+1 for another wall combo. I think we've already talked about this back in the TK6:BR Thread.About eCD+1 or CD+1, the site didn't mention anything about it. The site said they changed only 2,4, d+4, b+4, and CDS+1+2. Although yeah, the recovery is faster than the TK6 version since TTT2 non-Unlimited.
@LP SPARDA
Well, I play in the Philippines if you were talking about me.. but.. I dunno.. Who did you see playing Unlimited specifically?
- - - - - - -
Btw, my friends and I have confirmed that d+4 is INDEED just -14f now. So, other Jin players may still be able to punish this move with his ws+2, other characters still have to stick with their 12f or 13f (or whatever) punishers. Unless they also have a 14f (or less) launching punisher.
