Hi!
Updating again. Sorry if some of this is not suitable to Jin change log thread.
d+4 is now indeed confirmed to be only -14. Great news!
And I read somewhere on TZ that 214 is now -10? So I tried that out, and nope its still safe. And delayable.
Oh, 2,4 on block is -10 and 1+2 is -14, but I dont remember if those were changed in TTT2 or TTT2U :F .
Forest16: Good question about cd1. Basically as far as I noticed, yes, the only noticable difference is the speed. Ill keep this question in mind next play session.
Regarding the discussion of F+4 and b+3 and CDS tactics.
The frames on f+4 on hit and block could very well be different depending on if you go to CDS or not, so using the normal framedata for f+4 to determine what works and what not works could be hard.
But from experience in the game, its very clear that if the opponent jabs or uses any high attack, he risks being launched by well timed 1+2 or crushed by 4, so he needs to use mid attacks sometimes. And almost all fast mid attacks track far too badly for them to hit CDS2 unless you time it, in effect making them slower. Jins own 1+2 is an exception though since that move is far too great with its three fast hits 8). For low jabs or kicks, u can use CDS 3 but since its high, both it and the opponents move will often miss, resulting in a small advantage for the opponent but not enough for punishing with launcher. For the opponent the problem is reacting fast enough and seeing if the opponent used CDS or not, as well as reacting to if the F+4 hit or not. If you use low jab, it will whiff if the opponent didnt go to CDS and you WILL get launched by jins d+3+4 so you cant use it as a general stopping move here. Also generic low jab will get owned by CDS 2 normally. The damage output of all CDS moves excepting his 2 (unless near wall or sidehit so the opponent cant backroll), is quite adequate compared to their risk here. Some characters can punish CDS 1+2 on block severely so they dont care. and like stooncoold said Jin with his 1+2 doesnt have to be too afraid either.
Also a slight problem for Jin is that CDS4 can potentially be seen on reaction so good mixing is required. But a passive opponent blocking and waiting for it will eventually get owned by the other CDS moves and finally the CDS to CD transition, or simply lose too much momentum by blocking F+4 and not taking advantage of it, making it too spammable.
From the players ive observed, Soyongdori is the best player for using F+4 and the different followups in korea, and he completely wrecks people with his jin and other mishimas, so if you can find his games on tekkencyfren or w/e you should get the feeling. I personally have far less success using the CDS transitions.
And just a general recap on important changes to jins poking strategy, which I think might be the most significant changes to his gameplay from BR to TTT2:
b+2,1 now almost completely crushes jabs if you have advantage. B+2,1 followed by b+2,1 beats jabs, but can be sidewalked if the opponent really commits. This sidewalk can be beaten easily by basic 4, or by doing your own sidestep and then df+1 (hc to 4), or by doing CD1 or CD2 (which will also crush normal jabs with the right, not too difficult, timing). Before, his only reliable fast mid move to do damage after sidestep, as an alternative to the launch punishable d+3+4, was 1+2 which of course still was unsafe. Now we can use df+1 for the same damage in the same situation, and on block its not even bad.
Continuing, basic 4 wins against "every" attack except basic jabs, will float a hopkick, and on hit its now +1 so the situation is almost the same as after b+2,1.
Its very hard to retaliate against jins poking now, because this basic situation is available after so many of Jins moves, as well as after him blocking moves. But keeping range against jin is not easy either because of his great cd moves as well as b+2,1 and F+4 as well as his ability to 'punish' a turtling opponent by using slash kick or db+4 to create pressure. Remember, the opponent cant afford to sidestep too liberally on range because of cd1, cd2, and even cd4.
Thanks for your updates StoonCoold! I honestly didnt even notice that, but was wondering 'why am I dashing so far and jabbing when they are so close to me I could just do laser cannon'

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cheers#
Last edited by BlixtBob on Apr 1st, 2012 at 20:33