TTT2 Dragunov

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ColdFire2010
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Joined: Nov 2000
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#341 “Quote” Edit Post
don't ever translate japanese straight into english, the grammar structure and wording is too different

anyway, the changes:
b+1 - slower recovery; shortened active hit window
1+2 - earlier active hit window; damage reduced
qcb+2 - less pushback for opponent on block
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alucard81
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Singapore
#342 “Quote” Edit Post
b1 is nerfed... bad... better use b2,1 a bit more to poke

it is bad on block... not much on hit...

qcf+2 feels a bit better for no reason at all.

uf4 has lost some speed. I can't get one to hit at all (I feel I totally stink today so I need to dbl confirm)

=.= they nerfed his new poke hard...
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tyler2k
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#343 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by ColdFire2010
b+1 - slower recovery; shortened active hit window

Ha ha, nice, I had a feeling it meant the attack was less "meaty"

Originally posted by alucard81
uf4 has lost some speed. I can't get one to hit at all (I feel I totally stink today so I need to dbl confirm)

As far as I can tell u/f+4 hasn't been touched. It also looks the same from the videos I've seen and I haven't read anything regarding it. It might be you were getting SS'd a lot and it's tracking was never improved, soooo...

Seriously though, some one brought this good point up in general. (Edited for spelling/grammatical errors) "Of course I'm talking about Lars u/f+4, mid, low crush, safe, launcher and (now) taggable". You look at Lar's u/f+4 "orbital heel" which lost its ability to B!, but has picked up the ability to tag into your tag partner for easy as shit life destruction. Then you look at other characters who've received even more homing attacks in Unlimited (Zafina is up to something like 6 now?).

Then you look at Dragunov who still only has his original two and d+2 was a great tool to stop stepping but the range was nerfed, killing its ability to stop any step past ~range 0. Old school players will remember that u/f+4 in DR actually had a real combo follow up instead of the piss poor d+4,1,3 we're stuck with now and it's obvious they probably forgot about that. On top of that u/f+4 only tracks to one side and is still that way in a game where movement has been buffed.

Namco: If I was to ask for one buff for Dragunov in Unlimited, it would be u/f+4 NEEDS to be a homing move. Hell this isn't even a buff, it's a fix for how shitty this move is now.
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Kane
afternoon tea tea 2
Joined: Mar 2000
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#344 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by tyler2k
Namco: If I was to ask for one buff for Dragunov in Unlimited, it would be u/f+4 NEEDS to be a homing move. Hell this isn't even a buff, it's a fix for how shitty this move is now.


at least your character has more than one homing move D:<
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alucard81
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Joined: Jun 2008
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#345 “Quote” Edit Post
ff+3 and b+3

both are high... ff+3 is pretty good. but no homing mids... that can be rather shitty if you catch my drift.
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Kamileon88
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#346 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by tyler2k
Ha ha, nice, I had a feeling it meant the attack was less "meaty"


As far as I can tell u/f+4 hasn't been touched. It also looks the same from the videos I've seen and I haven't read anything regarding it. It might be you were getting SS'd a lot and it's tracking was never improved, soooo...

Seriously though, some one brought this good point up in general. (Edited for spelling/grammatical errors) "Of course I'm talking about Lars u/f+4, mid, low crush, safe, launcher and (now) taggable". You look at Lar's u/f+4 "orbital heel" which lost its ability to B!, but has picked up the ability to tag into your tag partner for easy as shit life destruction. Then you look at other characters who've received even more homing attacks in Unlimited (Zafina is up to something like 6 now?).

Then you look at Dragunov who still only has his original two and d+2 was a great tool to stop stepping but the range was nerfed, killing its ability to stop any step past ~range 0. Old school players will remember that u/f+4 in DR actually had a real combo follow up instead of the piss poor d+4,1,3 we're stuck with now and it's obvious they probably forgot about that. On top of that u/f+4 only tracks to one side and is still that way in a game where movement has been buffed.

Namco: If I was to ask for one buff for Dragunov in Unlimited, it would be u/f+4 NEEDS to be a homing move. Hell this isn't even a buff, it's a fix for how shitty this move is now.


Agreed on uf+4 being homing...if they dont want to make it homing...at least make it a launcher... -_-"

@aluard81 - he has a mid homing now...1+2
tyler2k
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#347 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kamileon88
@aluard81 - he has a mid homing now...1+2

That's my bad too, I completely forgot about 1+2, since it was pretty poor in TTT2. Doesn't change my perception of u/f+4 being bad though, it still needs to be buffed one way or another.
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tyler2k
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#348 “Quote” Edit Post
Okay, did some GIF testing, but first I'll post Ina's frame changes first

1+2 19 -> 18?
b+1 -6 -> -8 / +5 -> +3

From my research:

1+2 19 -> 17
b+1 -6 -> -7? / +5 -> inconclusive

Disclaimer: Most of the source footage I used was hand held recorded, if it was direct feed my confidence would increase. Also since YouTube caps at 30 FPS, I'm only seeing half the data, meaning I need a couple of examples to hone in to the actual speed. Even then I can only do so much as it really depends on a couple factors. I won't bore you with the technical stuff.

My data on the +frames of b+1 was inconclusive since I'm seeing (overall) the frames on hit remain nearly identical. If I was to take a guess, I'd say that the +frames on b+1 is mostly some type of bug fix. Maybe the active frames on vanilla b+1 were delaying the frame opening for attacking, making it feel like b+1 had mondo frames on hit, when it really wasn't the case. Something similar to Lili's BT d+3,4 where it's ~-12 on block, but the frame opening for punishment is so wonky that if you don't know about it, you'll miss your inputs.

One more thing:
I think they buffed b+3, I need someone with access to the game to test, but from what I've seen it might be a huge +frame buff on CH.
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alucard81
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Singapore
#349 “Quote” Edit Post
Drag's 1+2 is almost as bad as Paul's b+2

lacking range. lacking speed.

I rather have homing mids that have no "combo potential" and take a few frames off it's activation

my take on the amount they nerfed b+1

the move has less active frames of being an actual attack. meaning when he swings his elbow, there is a small arc where the hit is active. That arc is now smaller.

which meant the activation window is smaller. lesser tracking.

worst, the block stun induced on block has been severely cut back. you can basically forget about trying another b1 after one has touched your opponent. I have tried uf+4 after it several times and it is no go. I could have sworn, I crushed the jab attempts before this. Now I get jabbed out of the air.

the only move seem to be plausible now is b2,1. b+4,3 was no go. I am not sure about b1+2. df+1 is still kinda okay. but it is df+1

I will need to go and test b+3...
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tyler2k
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#350 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by alucard81
the only move seem to be plausible now is b2,1. b+4,3 was no go. I am not sure about b1+2. df+1 is still kinda okay. but it is df+1

I will need to go and test b+3...

b+2,1 and b+4,3 are both i15, near crush so the options post hit shout be the same.

When I first played change literally one day later from d/f+1,4 KND to d/f+1,4 W!, I absolutely hated it. "What a piece of crap," I thought. Now that I've stepped back from the game and have come back with fresh eyes, I really think d/f+1,4 really covers a niche quite nicely, specifically iWR+2 on block. Mid, CH confirmable, NCc that W! from a good distance away, and has even received a damage buff since T6. Basically anytime you're at +4 or better, there's always a chance there'll be a CH d/f+1,4 to stuff their attacks, similar to how 1,2,1 should be sometimes used as a deterrent.

Paul's b+2 is wayyy better than Dragunov's 1+2. Trust me, if Dragunov's 1+2 was anywhere near similar to Paul's b+2, there would be no discussion about it usefulness/uselessness.
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spining_demon
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Joined: Jan 2012
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#351 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by Kamileon88
Agreed on uf+4 being homing...if they dont want to make it homing...at least make it a launcher... -_-"



uf+4 is not gonna be homing due to namco 's policy to make dragunov intricate .and there's 2 or 3
low crush homing attack which doesn't launch in the game already
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ColdFire2010
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#352 “Quote” Edit Post
don't know if anyone mentioned already but you can do a quick tag with ch d/b+3~5, this will leave your other character standing right next to them ready for mix ups instead of dragunov rolling away. depending on who you use this could potentially be really good
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alucard81
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#353 “Quote” Edit Post
I DO use Armor King....
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tyler2k
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#354 “Quote” Edit Post
Hey, can anyone with access to the game test whether 4,1~1+2+3+4 still works for wall break? I was thinking <combo>, W!, 4,1~1+2+3+4, stage fall, secondary character combo finisher 5~f,f,f+2 might be really good for traps and/or pressure. This might make Dragunov really good for killing off characters with no health post combo through a) chip damage (a la Suicidal Sergei) b) launching WR+2 if they don't block.
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Keeper of the CRANE
DEATH by METAL
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#355 “Quote” Edit Post
I never knew 4,1 wallbreaks.
Awesome idea, very creative!

...also wanna say big thx for your great work on Drag in general, your FAQs helped me greatly getting into the character. Consider your work apprechiated.

Last edited by Keeper of the CRANE on Apr 19th, 2012 at 18:28

[~DTC~]
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#356 “Quote” Edit Post
Originally posted by tyler2k
Hey, can anyone with access to the game test whether 4,1~1+2+3+4 still works for wall break? I was thinking <combo>, W!, 4,1~1+2+3+4, stage fall, secondary character combo finisher 5~f,f,f+2 might be really good for traps and/or pressure. This might make Dragunov really good for killing off characters with no health post combo through a) chip damage (a la Suicidal Sergei) b) launching WR+2 if they don't block.


Great article man, it was an interesting read, now I have some new concept strategy for my other characters
Also ff+2~1+2 and 1,3,2~1+2 jf grabs??? Is it still the same hit cancel to grab? Or theres something different? Was that in DR only or was it in 6 as well...
So many move you've written in there I've never seen...

Also how do you tech after Drag's 3+4, been mashing 1,2 and doesn't tech. Is it because of my button press timing or you tech with the u,d,l,r?
Trying to put that move into use with my drag
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alucard81
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#357 “Quote” Edit Post
you have to quick stand with a direction tap iirc
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Shinjin
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#358 “Quote” Edit Post
nah you have to hit either 1,2,3 or 4, but if you press it too early it'll lock you out from techrolling, you gotta hit it just a single time.
Signature Bruck him for souf east, blud

look man the move doesnt track sidestep, but if you sidestep it will hit you
steves b+1 isint safe because it only auto guards high and mid, but you can cancel it and block all lows
Jaycees u/f+4,3 is launch punishable on block but if you try to punish it the 1 follow-up will hit you
tyler2k
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#359 “Quote” Edit Post
Wow, ok, didn't expect the thread to blow up, but awesome
Originally posted by Keeper of the CRANE
...also wanna say big thx for your great work on Drag in general, your FAQs helped me greatly getting into the character. Consider your work apprechiated.

Thanks, I appreciate people actually reading my stuff

I have a ton of theorycrafting tech stored away for September that I haven't talked about yet.
Originally posted by [~DTC~]
Also ff+2~1+2 and 1,3,2~1+2 jf grabs??? Is it still the same hit cancel to grab? Or theres something different? Was that in DR only or was it in 6 as well...

Also how do you tech after Drag's 3+4, been mashing 1,2 and doesn't tech. Is it because of my button press timing or you tech with the u,d,l,r?
Trying to put that move into use with my drag

When Ki charged, f,f+2~1+2 and (1,3),2~1+2 have JF sprites and are inescapable. It was there in DR and actually did bonus damage back then. What's nice about 1,3,2~1+2 is that you remain charged as long as your attacks are blocked, so best case scenario 1,3 does chip damage and the 2~1+2 is an inescapable throw.

To tech 3+4, and get a full combo, you tech left (1 on 1p side, 3 on 2p side) right as you touch the ground. If you tech right, all you get is WS+4, d+4,1,3 or something, instead of a full combo.
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Shinjin
Iron Fist God
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2787
From: England
#360 “Quote” Edit Post
yeah i've read over pretty much everything you've written too, theres a ton of good info, infact more then you need to have an effective drag
Signature Bruck him for souf east, blud

look man the move doesnt track sidestep, but if you sidestep it will hit you
steves b+1 isint safe because it only auto guards high and mid, but you can cancel it and block all lows
Jaycees u/f+4,3 is launch punishable on block but if you try to punish it the 1 follow-up will hit you

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