what are guaranteed craps after a ch db4?

can someone tell me what is the minimum frame can lili punish with qcf1,2?

ok here's my third question that i doubt will also be never answered... when do you throw out lili's launchers, now that fishing juggles can never be a part of her gameplay anymore, in BR she gets damage from juggles and counter hit and punishes... how do you struggle risking a launcher here in tt2?

Because a lot of Lili's launchers are very punishable, her game is more whiff punishment, whilst MASSIVELY abusing the crush system. Rather than ducking an opponents high jab or kick in a string, throw out D+3+4. Force whiffs and punish them accordingly using moves like QCF+1 2 and D/F+3+4. Once your opponent is in the air or splatted against a wall, he can say goodbye to a large chunk of his health bar, but to get him/her there, you must force whiffs, sidestep linear attacks, and take advantage of the amazing low crushing on her i15 hopkick.

When up close to your opponent, I try to focus on defending whilst gaining some breathing room, all the while, punishing whatever I can using her usual punishments, 1+2_2 4_1 2_QCF+1 2, you know, the usual. I never risk throwing out her launchers unless i KNOW that they're going to hit, because of their slow recovery on block.

Hope this helps ^_^

Edit:
Just remembered, F+2 3_3 1 are both NC in TTT2U, and they both are long range AND both of them wall splat very good for her punishment game.

how do you do ff3F to standing attack?

cancel that dash with u.

thx...

After bound, does iWS+2, B+1+4 cause a tech trap? I had someone use this against me to end a match, and I wasn't expecting it at all. Was it just me being stupid and not sidestepping, or is this completely unblockable if the opponent techs? If it's possible, then this would do wonders for my oki game after I've scared them enough to not backroll anymore.
I know the tracking on this move is terrible, but with the iWS+2 turning the opponent face down, they shouldn't be able to roll out it's range, right?

Last edited by Jason4579 on Apr 16th, 2012 at 23:02

at 2:01, Lili did a uf3+4 to ws3,4 after Leo's d2...

is there a transition to crouch after uf3+4?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar_x...feature=related

I never had tried it but if im not mistaken, after a move you can only transition to a stance from that move or it will swap characters immidiately...

Last edited by Knix on Apr 22nd, 2012 at 13:08

Ok, so here's what actually happened:

Lili didn't do uf3+4, nor does she have a transition to crouch afterwards. Lili actually did u3+4 which you can cancel to any qcf movement by pressing ~f. I guess the player wanted to do u3+4~f, qcf3+4 (because it sticks them to the wall) but probably held df instead and did a ws3,4 instead. Or maybe he was actually trying to do exactly what he did. It worked didn't it..?

I think he meant ws 3,4 since it worked for his wall combo. It looks interesting, though it makes me wonder if it is techable.

I have to know how consistent U3+4~f 3,4 as wall combo after tag. That's a lot of damage!

Does anybody know what is Lili's most damaging option on the wall after her partner's combo?
a. b+1,4
b. df3+4,1+2_3+4
c. wall grab

My guess is c; the wall grab. But it can only be done after high wall splat, so you'd better be off with doing b14.

But you tell us, you're the one with the access to the actual game

I can't really tell what move made the most damage. How do they do it anyway?

Also, I tried U3+4~f 3,4 and it connected no problem. Have to test it more. So I guess we've got a more damaging option at the wall now.

Would it be okay to ask for critique in here with a T6 video? I'd post it in the T6 Lili forums, but I doubt anyone really checks it. Anyway, I started learning Tekken a couple months ago after the disappointment that was SFxT, and I really want to be able to somewhat hold my own against decent players in Tag 2. I'm lucky enough to have a couple of good players in the area to practice with and learn from, but it'd be nice to get some critique from people who play my character.

http://www.twitch.tv/consolecombat/b/330309530

Tekken starts at 3:50:00. It's a rotation between our best Tekken player, another Tekken player, me, and 2 other guys who are learning. I'm the Lili player, obviously. I get beat up for most of the matches, but I actually almost win a 2/3 against his Jin at 4:51:20

I'm aware of a couple of my weaknesses:

-Lack of character knowledge. I usually just 1, 2 if I see something that looks punishable unless I know it is before throwing out something risky like 1+2 or u/f+3 without knowing if it'll actually punish.
-I pretty much only sidestep into the foreground. This is solely because it's easier for me, and going back to character knowledge, I don't really know which way to step against most characters, so I just do what's easier for now unless I need to get away from the wall.
-I can't break throws for the most part.

I certainly don't expect anyone to go through all of the matches and give me pages of critique, but it'd be nice if I could get some help so I know what to work on before the Tag 2 hype train comes. Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Trike on Aug 30th, 2012 at 23:10

Well, here is my opinion. I saw all your matches. I'm no expert but I'll say I'm probably at the same level as your group! First the good things:

You have good movement. Not great, but at least you move and try to space correctly and not just throw out launchers from any random distance.

I think you should throw more. Much more. Especially after you have plus-frames and you know that your opponent knows you have plus frames. Because then you know they'll probably just continue blocking.
After you do a df3 --> throw! After you do a qcf3+4 --> throw! after you get in jabs--> yup, throw their fucking ass!!! I can't tell how many times 1,2 --> df1+2 has won me matches. You are only at -1 even if they block 1,2. If you buffer the 2 and just press df+1 you get the throw out very quick and it beats out most of the opponents options. It certainly works at the level your group is. Never overestimate your opponent! Don't respect anyone until they earn it by not falling for your set-ups anymore!

You had a lot of launchers but you missed the juggle. That a huge chunk of damage you could have done and maybe won the round. Lili has not much going on for her, so she needs to deal as much damage as she can when she gets a launch! Try not to fuck up too many combos.

One of Lili's strongest aspect is her crazy oki game. Lili controls everything. I usually only need one launch and the round is pretty much mine. Because she has some of the greatest, most rewarding 50/50's in the game. I didn't see you take advantage of that even once.

At that level you usually get something after knockdown. Here's what I do. You should try to end the combo with ff3,3+4. This spikes them and sets up for an amazing oki. If they do anything but a sideroll a df3+4 will get them and reset for a full juggle! If they just stay down, you can do ff4 for a beefy damage. If they sideroll d3 will get you some damage and momentum! If they start getting up and blocking low you can mix ff4 with ff3 and get a full launch again. Enjoy it while it lasts though, ff3 doesn't launch in TTT2 anymore

Then you have the df3+4,3+4 combo ender. They are spiked so they can't techroll. You are now backturned. If they try to quickstand,or any get-up kick or backroll, BT1+2 will get them and reset to a full juggle! If they stay down or sideroll you can do BT d3+4. The point is that you have the upper hand, they have to guess.

You also have the df3+4,1+2 ender. It has the same oki set-ups as ff3,3+4 ender. The opponent is spiked right in front of you and you have the 50/50 option for either a beefy low with ff4 if they stay down or quickstand. Or you can do df3+4 and get a reset for full combo if they backroll. Mix it up, don't be too predictable. You can do db3+4 for a low or d3. The ff4 and ff3 mixed up is great too.

So do more oki. That is Lili's strength. At wall she is even more dangerous. Why do you retract after you've done a wall combo??? That's fucking crazy! Against Lili they have to fear everything they do!! You control fucking EVERYTHING!! You need to sidestep and do df3 and you have plus-frames and momentum. Then throw! Or 1+2 and wallsplat them if they try to press buttons! After a wall combo ff4 and ff3 give you that same powerful mixup between a beefy low and a mid that will reset for a full combo!



TL: DR;

Throw more! Especially when you have plus-frames and you know the opponent is gonna block anyway!

Do more oki. Spike them with ff3,3+4 or df3+4,3+4 or df3+4,1+2 and mix up with low/mid attacks that grant Lili beefy damage or even reset for full juggle!

Try this next time and send me a PM and tell me how it went!

I guess it won't be too much of a problem. Anyways, I won't give you pages of critique (I haven't watched all of your games either, haha), but I can give you pointers.

- Don't whiff moves. If you do a move, make it hit. It doesn't matter at first if the move hit or got blocked, but don't whiff moves. A blocked hopkick is -12 punishment, a whiffed hopkick = launch. 1,2 on block = safe, but a whiffed 1,2 could also lead to a launch for the opponent.

- Movement is quite important. (you often get hit during your movement) I'd recommend you work on your backdash canceling. Also, sidestepping into the background is something you should get used too, as Lili has a good sidestep.

- As I just mentioned, Lili's sidestep is quite good. Try to create more whiffs by sidestepping/sidewalking and punish them. You have punished some whiffs with a throw, which is good. But if you see a whiff, you usually would punish it with a uf3 into a juggle. you can do 1,2/2,4/throws too.

- Character knowledge. You know it's one of your weaknesses and you don't need to know every character completely, but knowing basic, general stuff is quite useful. Examples:
--- You played against a Devil Jin and Kazuya. They both have an EWGF, which gives the Mishima user +5 on block. So don't try to pull out a hopkick after blocking an EWGF. You can duck it and punish it with uf3. or sidestep to the left. Do SSL against Mishima's in general btw, their right is their "weaker" side (Kaz, DVJ, Hei)
--- Lows are always punishable. If you don't know the punishment, just do a ws4. There are exceptions (Jack's FC db1), but yeah, ws4 usually punishes most lows.
--- If people are pressuring you after you get KND'ed, you can do a low toe kick (d+4 when laying on the ground) or a get up kick (press 3 or 4 when on the ground). Explore your options when you're on the ground, you can do more than quickstanding and rolling forwards/backwards.
--- Hopkicks in general are -12 on block, so punish them with 1+2, which is Lili's i12 punisher. In TTT2, hopkicks in general are -13, so you can punish them with Lili's new i13 punisher f2,3 (it's NC in TT2)

~~~

This wasn't really Lili-specific stuff, but if I'd have to talk about Lili-specific stuff:

- Use ff4 more. It's a low move, +3 on hit. It's relatively slow, but if you know you're at frame advantage and/or you think the opponent is just going to block, do it.

- Poke more with 1 instead of 1,2. 1 is +1 on block, a lot of + on hit and relatively hard to whiff punish (depending on the level of your opponent). So you can continue your pressure afterwards (throw,df1,SS,ff4,etc.)

- If people pressure you with a lot of moves, you can do a crouch jab (db+1) to interrupt them.

- Bound ender: use df3+4,3+4. You can use BT okizeme options (if opponent quickstands, 1+2 will launch them again. if they sideroll, d3+4 will catch them, etc.).

- don't use db4. It's blockable on reaction. Unless you know they can't block it on reaction, don't use it.

- More throws. Just do it. If they can't throw break, they should improve their throw breaking.

Hmm, this got longer than I thought. Oh well, I'd suggest you'd improve on your fundamental game (movement, general character knowledge, throw breaking), as Lili will be different in TTT2. I'd also suggest searching for a 2nd character for TTT2.

Woah, I definitely did not expect these replies.


Thank you, haha. Movement was actually one of the things I was worried about. The guy who's been teaching me emphasized movement a lot when I started playing, especially since I picked Lili as my first character, so I've spent a lot of time practicing it. I still can't really properly BDC yet. I've been doing bb, dbb, dbb, dbb as a substitute for the moment, which is why I sort of backdash diagonally. Still have a long way to go, though. Especially since I'm stubborn and sticking with a Japanese stick so I don't have to shell out money for a Korean stick or have to lug around a pad and converter along with a stick at a tournament just so I can play Tekken.

I've also tried to not get into bad habits that other new Lili players tend to get (and other people complain about) like overly-random, frequent hop kicks and d/b+4, though I am guilty of the u/f+3 as a non-whiff punish, I like to think that it's usually if I think they're going to press a button. Same with d/b+4, but I try to only use that as a snake dash mixup or a high crush.


That is definitely a bad habit that I have. When I do play Tekken, it's pretty much always against the guy running the rotation in the video (Today was an exception and everyone wanted to play Tekken for some reason, and I still only got to play him, heh.) He breaks probably 90% of the throws that I land, and often just hits me out of them or ducks them, so I've gotten in the habit of just not bothering a lot of the time unless I think I'm behind them. Overestimating people is also a bad habit that I have, in all fighting games, not just Tekken. I didn't know about that jab buffer, though. Will definitely try it out.


Duly noted. Sometimes I get lost in what I'm going to do after df3, df3+4, BT 1+2 that I actually forget to react if they actually launch.


Yeah, Tekken's oki is something that I'm still having trouble understanding completely. I'm not really sure what sort of wake up options can be launched with what launcher after a knockdown. I saw a Korean player abuse the post-B! d/f3+4, BT 1, d/f3+4 mixup and went for it a little too much.


This is GOLDEN. Thank you! I've been trying to avoid getting used to the ff3_4 mixup because of that nerf, though.


Will do! Hopefully I can get Tekken on the stream again next week.


Definitely aware of this. Will try to cut down.


You can block while BDCing? I didn't know that. Looks like I'm going to need to drop my ghetto bbd, bbd, bbd backdash cancel that sidesteps at the same time and actually learn propper backdash canceling.


Also working on this.


All of this is actually some of the little bit of character knowledge I know. Not sure why I insisted on pushing buttons a few times.


Yeah, I tried to WS2 and uf3 the lows that I caught, not sure why. I'll try to burn that into my brain.


Understood. This was something else I knew I was lacking. Guess I'm going to go through those get-up tutorials again.



This is new to me. Thanks!


Yeah. I tried using it a lot for a while, but I could never seem to land it like other Lili players can because of how slow it is. I'll try it again next time.


I actually know this, but I'm not sure why I haven't incorporated this into my game. Definitely doing this next time.


Does this mean most pressure moves in the game are highs? Makes sense. I'll try it out.


No reason to mix it up with other enders? I've been trying to use different ones, though I did use df3+4, 3+4 exclusively when I was first learning her.


Yeah, as I said above, I try to only use it when I'm fishing for a high crush or going for snake dash mixups. My scrub tendencies get the best of me sometimes, though. The thought of a huge launcher off of a low is so tempting, even if competent players can block it without a problem.


Understood.


Will do. I'm fully aware of Lili's TTT2 changes and have been trying to adjust to them beforehand. I can also play Asuka and Leo, but I'll be going with Lili/Leo for the most part.

Thanks a lot for the replies, guys. This is beyond helpful. I don't have my console on me at the moment, so I can't practice, but I'll write these down in my Lili document in my phone and keep them in mind for the next local session. Hopefully I'll be able to squeeze out a few more wins.

I'll first reply to some of the responses to my post. First: I might have sounded a bit blunt in my previous post, but I was trying to be straightforward and trying to cut down my wall of text, haha ^^ And my replies are usually long, especially when I have time. Like, at this moment, haha.

So: about db+1: well, a lot of pressure moves are indeed highs, but db+1 is a special mid. This means that it will hit like a mid ( it doesn't matter if opponent is ducking or standing) but also acts like a low (it's low crushable/low parriable) + it high crushes. And mainly: it's quick, it's 10f, and safe.

For example: you play against a Kazuya. You block his f+4, which is +3 on block.

Option 1: Kaz tries to get a CH with his mid move df2, which is 15f. If you do a crouch jab at the same time, you will hit him earlier (15-3=12f, so df2 is still slower than your db1). (If you would have done a df1, you'd get CH, as df1 would be slower. If you'd do a jab, you'd still get CH, because Kaz' df2 high crushes)
option 2: He tries to pressure with his EWGF/jab/throw => you high crush with db1, because all that stuff = high. Also, db1 = +5 or 6 on hit, so you are in frame advantage.

Of course, if Kaz does a 12f mid move after his f+4 (like: doing 1+2 with Lili after having df+3 blocked), it will beat your db1. And many characters can low crush it with a hopkick. But fast mids are usually punishable (like Lili's 1+2 being -12 on block) and hopkicks are also unsafe.

Basically: a crouch jab is a great "momentum stopper" and an universal poke that everyone has, like df+1 and a jab.

---

About only using df3+4,3+4 and other Lili-specific stuff: I'm not trying to go in detail, because 1) you're relatively new, so I'd like to keep it simple. But mostly 2) T6 Lili isn't that important anymore, knowing that TT2 is out in 2 weeks and TT2 Lili isn't too much like T6 Lili. Regarding juggles: her staple juggle is different and her bound enders are also different. So the best option is to just go for a df3+4,3+4 for BT okizeme. or df3+4,1+2 for regular oki. (if they stay on the ground = d+3, ff4. side roll = same. back roll = df3+4, etc.)
Basically: it doesn't matter too much anymore. That's why I mainly recommend to improve your basics and to play with at least 1 other character.

---

About movement: I've been playing with a Korean stick, but I occasionally play with a Japanese stick. I'm not able to wavedash as well as on a Korean stick and doing EWGF requires a bit of getting used too, but Japanese sticks aren't bad. (I might actually switch to Japanese parts if I can get a hold of the silent Sanwa parts)

Try to learn this backdash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWDZ7oTxRM
Or you can do a reverse wavedash, if you won't be playing with sway characters (Bryan, Paul, etc.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUjzsCCV-KU

Or read this: http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forum...793#post4538793

About blocking during BDC: whenever you hold b during the backdash, you can block. so: if you do b,B (hold b), you block mids and highs during the whole backdash animation. doing b,b (not holding back) makes you vulnerable, as you're not holding back => you're not blocking. :p

---

And: no problem, I just happen to have some time, haha. Even though you're not playing that long, you're pretty good. There's some work, but yeah, Tekken is hard to pick up. People usually get tired of it when they hear they have to practice movement, haha.

Last edited by DeTrun on Aug 31st, 2012 at 02:14

Even though this wasn't meant for me, it helps me a lot. ^-^ Thanks. I main Lili and plan to main Kuni in TTT2 by the way.